Donkey Kong Forum

High Score Lists => Donkey Kong High Score Lists => Topic started by: xelnia on February 02, 2018, 10:22:52 am

Title: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: xelnia on February 02, 2018, 10:22:52 am
Below, you'll find a large collection of animated GIFs. PLEASE take the time to read this ENTIRE post before jumping to them, and please continue reading what is posted AFTER them. In summary, these GIFs show that each of the Donkey Kong world record direct feed recordings presented by Billy Mitchell and verified by TG were generated in MAME and not by original Donkey Kong hardware. These scores are: 1,047,200 (the King of Kong "tape"), 1,050,200 (the Mortgage Brokers score), and 1,062,800 (the Boomers score). In order to demonstrate this, it's necessary to understand how DK images are generated by MAME versus an original PCB.

Video emulation has changed across MAME versions, but there are basically 4 eras: 0.115 and prior, 0.116 - 0.121, 0.122 - 0.126, 0.127 and newer. Each of these groups or eras show different methods of video emulation as a result of MAMEdev making various improvements. As it currently stands, video emulation is not perfect, but it's closer than it used to be.

The important bit: prior to version 0.127, MAME generated video in essentially a "snapshot" fashion. The Z80 would run for 1 frame, then the video emulation takes the "snapshot" of that point time and displays the image. Then the Z80 runs for 1 frame, the next snapshot is taken, displayed on the monitor, etc. etc. Real DK hardware, on the other hand, generates video in a "rolling shutter" fashion: the video generator scans left-to-right/bottom-to-top, while the Z80 builds the screen in memory from the opposite direction right-to-left, top-to-bottom. Both video generation and the Z80 are running concurrently with no "snapshots". The result is that it becomes fairly easy to determine WHAT generated the image based on HOW the image has been generated.

A simple analogy would be this:

-Real DK hardware generates the image in the same way you would open or close vertical window blinds...from side to side.
-Older versions of MAME (pre-0.122) generate the image in the same way you would put together a puzzle...piece by piece.

Since Billy has claimed that his footage is all direct feed, it's also CRUCIAL that we take a look at an extremely well-documented process of creating a direct feed setup for DK. Chris Gleed went through the entire painful process, documenting each step in his journey. You can read about it in the links below. He discusses his hardware choices and provides photo updates throughout. It is very likely that he has the only true DK direct feed setup in existence and his scores have been accepted at DKF and TG. Footage of his direct feed gameplay is included in the GIF collection for comparison...if we are looking at direct feed footage, THIS IS WHAT WE SHOULD SEE.

Idea: video/audio capture from edge connector (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=1315.0)
Donkey Kong Direct Feed How-To (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=1413.0)


For further comparison, I've included footage from my own DK cabinet. This was recorded using a Samsung 8 phone filming at 60 fps. This gives us a high-framerate comparison of true DK hardware that is NOT direct feed. It also captures the idiosyncracies in filming a monitor with a camera (brief ghost images or double frames). Since existing footage of Billy's 1.047M and 1.062M are cameras-pointing-at-monitor-playback, those sources will exhibit some of the same effects. Note that this is VERY different from the concepts discussed earlier regarding how video is generated...these are artifacts caused by the external re-recording of the original sources, not artifacts present in the sources themselves.

Another MAME behavior that is worth pointing out is rotation. Although we see DK in the correct orientation when we play on a real cab, the video is actually generated on its side, with the top of the screen being on the right-hand side. MAME also emulates this incorrectly. If you've read through Chris Gleed's threads, you can see posted photos of correctly rotated DK video. Billy's 1.047M and 1.05M games show the incorrect rotation. The 1.062M recording, however, appears to be the correct orientation. Since MAME versions haven't changed the rotation, it's likely this discrepancy was noticed at some point and corrected for future recordings (simple as using the -ror command).

A final note before the GIFs: all of this can be independently confirmed by anyone. I am not in sole possession of any critical, secret piece of information here. Knowledgeable hardware experts like Sock Master, who played a crucial role in dissecting all of this, can verify the hardware aspects. Any person can inspect any and all versions of MAME, the provided video sources, and their own hardware if they have it.

So, with all that being said, let's get to the GIFs. These are small segments from each source, showing the transition from the break screen into the next. Each GIF is showing every frame in the transition; there is no cherry picking here. Each frame in the GIF lasts approximately 750 ms to make it easier to see. As for framerates, the MAME sources, Chris Gleed's direct feed, and my cab are recorded at ~60 fps. Each Billy source is ~30 fps. I apologize in advance for the formatting/placement. :D

They have been grouped by screen type (barrel, pie, spring, rivet) and show a variety of sources:

MAME 0.115 (relevant for versions 115 and below)
MAME 0.117 (relevant for versions 117 - 121)
MAME 0.122 (relevant for versions 122 - 126)
MAME 0.194 (relevant for versions 127 - 194)
Billy 1.047M (https://youtu.be/KYtJzRcvOzk)
Billy 1.05M (https://youtu.be/qfk0WxlSqpo)
Billy 1.062M (pie transition only...this is the only transition footage available for this game) (https://youtu.be/7y15Y6xrpXY)
Chris Gleed 970k Direct Feed (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/55303669)

Test footage from my personal cab, recorded at 60 fps with a Samsung 8 phone

BARREL TRANSITIONS

MAME 0.115 and below                   MAME 0.116 to 0.121                     MAME 0.122 to 0.126                     MAME 0.127 to present
(https://i.imgur.com/ygRJmPy.gif) (https://i.imgur.com/L2EyYP7.gif) (https://i.imgur.com/t9OLFrO.gif) (https://i.imgur.com/d5IhtrX.gif)

Billy 1.047M                                      Billy 1.05M
(https://i.imgur.com/ZGY568Q.gif) (https://i.imgur.com/06RAEUu.gif)

Chris Gleed 970k Direct Feed                                                                     Jeremy Young Test Footage - 60 fps camera phone
(https://i.imgur.com/h8uzEIn.gif) (https://i.imgur.com/0cYAQjt.gif)


PIE TRANSITIONS

MAME 0.115 and below                   MAME 0.116 to 0.121                     MAME 0.122 to 0.126                     MAME 0.127 to present
(https://i.imgur.com/nD2130A.gif) (https://i.imgur.com/l3NfEDi.gif) (https://i.imgur.com/fbbAtun.gif) (https://i.imgur.com/7TskeiL.gif)


Billy 1.047M                                      Billy 1.05M                                        Billy 1.062M
(https://i.imgur.com/b4mHlsN.gif) (https://i.imgur.com/eVLzU3o.gif) (https://i.imgur.com/jgEy8NJ.gif)

Chris Gleed 970k Direct Feed                                                                     Jeremy Young Test Footage - 60 fps camera phone
(https://i.imgur.com/3jHIZJn.gif) (https://i.imgur.com/6BA9Q83.gif)

SPRING TRANSITIONS

MAME 0.115 and below                   MAME 0.116 to 0.121                     MAME 0.122 to 0.126                     MAME 0.127 to present
(https://i.imgur.com/beSYXPX.gif) (https://i.imgur.com/WKPHmUD.gif) (https://i.imgur.com/9ygYcfn.gif) (https://i.imgur.com/66zcnQs.gif)


Billy 1.047M                                      Billy 1.05M
(https://i.imgur.com/s5W3xkj.gif) (https://i.imgur.com/oH8IXcm.gif)

Chris Gleed 970k Direct Feed                                                                     Jeremy Young Test Footage - 60 fps camera phone
(https://i.imgur.com/Mx23mSD.gif) (https://i.imgur.com/F35BTGH.gif)


RIVET TRANSITIONS

MAME 0.115 and below                   MAME 0.116 to 0.121                     MAME 0.122 to 0.126                     MAME 0.127 to present
(https://i.imgur.com/lF5ZAdg.gif) (https://i.imgur.com/MDCber6.gif) (https://i.imgur.com/FFBdNWv.gif) (https://i.imgur.com/L8C8HJ0.gif)


Billy 1.047M                                      Billy 1.05M
(https://i.imgur.com/0ACVyTR.gif) (https://i.imgur.com/W5HiUgi.gif)

Chris Gleed 970k Direct Feed                                                                     Jeremy Young Test Footage - 60 fps camera phone
(https://i.imgur.com/GtUMNEo.gif) (https://i.imgur.com/ZOAHnMk.gif)

Beyond the evidence above, it's worth pointing out some other questions and issues:

1) While clearly MAME, there is no way to tell exactly how these games were performed. It's possible they were recorded in one shot. Given the play style in Billy's videos, it's more likely that vanilla MAME's INP recording feature was abused, in which a person can re-record an INP as many times as they wish to craft their desired performance.

2) While many people have seen Billy play in public, there are no known independent, impartial, objective witnesses to any of the The Big 3 WR games. He has never scored over 1,000,000 in a live venue. Billy claimed the 1.047M was done in front of scores of people, but that he had no access to the inside of the machine...so how did he set up the direct feed? The 1.05 was supposedly done at an actual convention, but Billy was conveniently playing in another room. The 1.062 was done in arcade in Florida, but the only live footage from that day was staged (the Boomer board swap (https://youtu.be/Tc8G0gXh5Og)) and shows no evidence of a direct feed setup. Todd Rogers, of Dragster infamy, was a supposed witness to the 1.05M and 1.062M games.

3) It's unclear if ANYONE ever reviewed the 1.062M recording. According to Patrick Scott Patterson, the TG refs present at the IVGHOF event in Ottumwa in 2010 simply voted on whether to accept the score, without reviewing any footage. While PSP's credibility in anything DK-related is questionable, his version of those events is still worth noting.

4) For Billy, who has taken special care to point out how little he knows about DK hardware, it would have been essentially impossible to create a direct feed setup in the years he was submitting tapes. So, who would have done it for him and why has that person never been a part of any verification discussions? Creating a dual-display version for the Mortage Convention (sending quality video to another room, not just a VCR) would have required even more technical know-how.

So...PLEASE KEEP READING

In light of the evidence presented here, I am removing Billy Mitchell's current score of 1,062,800 from the Donkey Kong Forum High Score List (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=366.0).

This score will be replaced with his live score of 933,900, performed at the Midwest Gaming Classic on May 7, 2004. This score was performed in public and was witnessed by at least one TG member as well as Dwayne Richard (http://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/112959-Donkey-Kong-World-Record-Being-Challenged?p=583595&viewfull=1#post583595).

As DKF's (currently) sole high score moderator, I've taken my responsibilities very seriously. I've always tried to apply what I felt were the community standards to every performance. When Corey Chambers was first crafting the original version of the HSL rules, an important section of the "Auxiliary Rules" was that a score may be accepted without following the main rules as long as it was convincingly supported in multiple other ways. This idea was tested early on with MAME games by Robbie Lakeman and Christian Van Meter...performances that were accepted with no INPs. In my view, this door swings both ways. Scores already on the board are ALWAYS subject to review, and if the preponderance of evidence is against it than the score should be removed, even if no single bit of evidence is a "smoking gun." In my view, we have reached that point with Billy Mitchell.

The idea to challenge Billy's scores has been floating around for quite some time now. I lodged a formal dispute on TG (http://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/176004) months ago. A poll on DKF (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=1944.0) showed an almost even split (10-13) on whether Billy's scores should be removed from our HSL. Top players and former TG officials, some quietly and others not so quietly, have been questioning his gameplay and the circumstances behind his recordings for over a decade. I don't know Billy personally. We've never met and the only time we've been in the same place was KO3. I'm well aware of his importance in gaming history and culture and especially to the arcade and DKF community. I understand this will not be a popular decision. It is not my wish to fracture a community or affect anyone's personal life. But ultimately, I have to do what I think is right.

Short of live, time-stamped, complete footage (including full views of cab hardware) of the games in question, I will not be reinstating any of Billy's scores in question. Should the community as a whole wish for reinstatement, then I will step down as DKF high score moderator. It's worth noting that there are still other forum mods (and an admin) that can update the scoreboard if they so choose.

If this community (and others like it) are built on the idea of friendship through competition, camaraderie through our shared pains in pushing ourselves, our friends, and these games to their limits, then we must strive for honesty and legitimacy. A house built on lies is not worth living in.

EDIT: The original transition GIF for the rivets for MAME version 0.116-0.121 was a duplicate of the version 0.115 GIF. I've updated the post with the correct GIF.

EDIT #2: ersatz_cats did some great work, tracking down video of an MTV interview from 2006 with RTM showcasing the 1.047M and further demonstrating all of the stuff from above: A lost interview with Mruczek has revealed more evidence against Billy Mitchell (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=2481.0)
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: CMarshall088 on February 02, 2018, 10:28:31 am
 <pacman> <Billy>
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: WCopeland on February 02, 2018, 10:55:09 am
Regardless of player or circumstance, this kind of dishonesty should not be tolerated.
I'm grateful for the well-written post and support Jeremy's decision.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: xelnia on February 02, 2018, 11:11:22 am
If you're having difficulty track the GIFs, I apologize. When I was first considering making this post, I threw together a series of frame-by-frame still images. It might help you see what to look for in the GIFs. It's not as comprehensive as the GIFs because it was a test image, but hopefully it helps anyway.

(https://i.imgur.com/MTExji0.png)
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: serphintizer on February 02, 2018, 11:18:18 am
not even helen...
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: tilt on February 02, 2018, 11:20:03 am
Well done Jry/Sock.  The evidence is conclusive, and I stand behind this decision 100%.  The community has your back
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: homerwannabee on February 02, 2018, 11:21:45 am
The way you laid out this dispute is like a piece of art it's so amazing.  Fantastic job Jeremy.   
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Flobeamer1922 on February 02, 2018, 11:23:34 am
Incredibly telling evidence. It's brilliant, Jry. You and Sock did a great job putting this together.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: QAOP Spaceman on February 02, 2018, 11:23:57 am
I think the gifs work very well, especially the rivet stage which as a non-expert shows the clearest difference to me.

One question, forgive me if it's a dumb one - are there more frames in the direct feed example because it takes the cabinet longer to do the drawing using the 'puzzle' rather than the 'vertical window blinds'method in mame?
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: TheSunshineFund on February 02, 2018, 11:26:21 am
Extremely eye opening and well presented.  Great job guys.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Dk_madness on February 02, 2018, 11:40:45 am
Well written and easy to follow. You guys did an amazing job.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: LMDAVE on February 02, 2018, 11:50:11 am
Wow....thats a lot to digest in one reading, but is eye opening an obviously a lot of work put into it. The Boomers thing back in 2010 was always a red flag for me but it just kind of fizzled away.

But something was always suspicious about this DK jr. post WR video when the camera guy didn't even bother to look at the arcade screen, and mannerisms.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvdrEgk2l6g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvdrEgk2l6g)

Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: dnickolas on February 02, 2018, 11:58:11 am
Why leave the 933,900? Even if legit, the presence of illegitimate scores would disqualify him from being on any HSL, right?
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: DonkeyKongGenius on February 02, 2018, 12:53:18 pm
Why leave the 933,900? Even if legit, the presence of illegitimate scores would disqualify him from being on any HSL, right?

All legit scores should be included. Remember, whether a player falsified a future score does not mean that we just remove all their scores that are legit. We want the list to be relevant as well as accurate.

Way to go Jeremy!
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Barra on February 02, 2018, 01:30:49 pm
Big props to Jeremy and John for your hard work here
Standing behind this 100%
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: CaptainJivePants on February 02, 2018, 01:43:33 pm
Well written.  I trust your judgement and I will support your decision.  Thanks for your continued service to our community.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: QAOP Spaceman on February 02, 2018, 02:00:52 pm
Before the inevitable backlash begins from those who won't accept the very clear evidence you have presented, let me add my hats off to xelnia and sock master for having the guts to publish and be damned.

Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Adam_Mon on February 02, 2018, 02:01:12 pm
 <Tim> "Them Hollywood Hucksters"

Well written Jry.
gg sock also.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: andrewg on February 02, 2018, 02:15:52 pm
Something occurred to me that hasn't before regarding emulation in general. It is standard, the frames will always look the same, whereas in any other recording format, you will always be recording frames (in between) console/system actual framerate. That's to say that simply looking at the beginning of a performance frame by frame may be enough to determine emulation. At least this would be possible if a person simply submitted an inp file as proof, but may not be detectable if other alterations were made.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: QAOP Spaceman on February 02, 2018, 02:28:05 pm

oops

(https://i.imgur.com/pkXQedw.jpg)

artist unknown
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: sevenup1203 on February 02, 2018, 03:04:35 pm
Great job with the investigating, crazy that this stuff still happens.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: ZedIsDead on February 02, 2018, 03:09:00 pm
I'm no expert, obviously, but that does look pretty damning. I'd say you made the right decision. Hopefully TG will see reason as well, but judging from the Dragster response, the Billy Mitchell dispute will stay there for months until public outcry from outside forces their hand. Good job putting this together, Jry.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: michaelsroka on February 02, 2018, 03:33:07 pm

oops

(https://i.imgur.com/pkXQedw.jpg)

artist unknown

This is amazing.  Both the pictures and the findings.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: craighiphopfish on February 02, 2018, 04:06:36 pm
Im thinking it’s time to change my profile picture.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: YesAffinity on February 02, 2018, 04:19:36 pm
Great work, guys!  I'm glad my setup provided useful evidence in this matter.  I wholeheartedly support the resulting decisions.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: TheSunshineFund on February 02, 2018, 04:29:07 pm
Great work, guys!  I'm glad my setup provided useful evidence in this matter.  I wholeheartedly support the resulting decisions.

Yer good stuff mate!  Definitely added much to the evidence package.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Ohrami on February 02, 2018, 04:34:49 pm
I always thought his gameplay looked abnormally swaggy. Good work exposing him. The movie is sort of ruined for me now though.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: ripper on February 02, 2018, 05:01:59 pm
Some crazy, crazy stuff going on anymore.   <gasp>
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: colecomeister on February 02, 2018, 07:52:32 pm
Why leave the 933,900? Even if legit, the presence of illegitimate scores would disqualify him from being on any HSL, right?

All legit scores should be included. Remember, whether a player falsified a future score does not mean that we just remove all their scores that are legit. We want the list to be relevant as well as accurate.

Way to go Jeremy!

I'm very much a curious visitor here, so I don't wish to come across as trolling DKF members. Is the tracking undertaking by DKF purely a statistical enterprise? That is, no one can truly be "disqualified" from being tracked by DKF if a player at any time puts up a true score, even if the same player has on other occasions falsified or misrepresented their score? I think this question of whether Mitchell should be stripped of any recognition (as outlandish as that sounds) may come up at TG.

I have to admit that, on the one hand, yes, we have a player who has publicly put up big scores, that is undeniable, and yes, we can't ever "forget" that he actually did that, and so why shouldn't those legitimate scores be tracked out of a devotion to historical comprehensiveness? However, on the other hand, the charges leveled here - that Mitchell with deliberate forethought falsified and misrepresented the circumstances of his game play, passing off a MAME submission as an arcade submission on three separate occasions, going so far as to create a "live venue" narrative with staged filming in one instance - should only face the punishment of having his score adjusted? That said, I understand that in the case where a scoreboard does not view inclusion or recognition of scores as a "privilege" for the player and is simply tracking legit scores, then yes there really isn't a "punishment" except to scrub scores that aren't.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: krehztim on February 02, 2018, 08:21:25 pm
As someone who just started in this whole community about 3 years ago and knows very little about the technical aspects of the hardware and of the MAME programming, but who spends hours a day tearing down MAME submissions at RU, this is an astounding analysis, and Jry did an amazing job of explaining and showing the discrepancies.  Unreal job. 

While I mostly agree with leaving his legitimate score on the scoreboard, it does seem almost sad that if Todd were to actually put up a 5.57, for example, his score is verboten.  Billy getting better treatment because of his standing in the community, and for his actual achievements?  Also doesn't help that Todd was such a stonewaller for so many years and refused to compete.  Billy's got to be approaching 60, there's no way he's hitting 1.2 million anymore.  I can't imagine the uproar if TG would remove all of Mitchell's scores. 

Well done, everyone who put this together.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Sidseattle on February 03, 2018, 03:36:41 am
When are we getting a dkj/r HSL..when, the game has been out almost a whole year.

Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: V3rby on February 03, 2018, 04:29:09 am
Everybody knew that Billy was able to pull cheap stunts on many occasions, but thats a new low point.

After reading your explanation i'm 100% on your side, even though i'm not sure if his 2004 live score should remain.

Sure, it's been a "legit" score, but it's a question on how to handle someone who's not only cheated once but several times in the past.

Anyways, great insight into the technical side of things, very educational!

Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: ChrisP on February 03, 2018, 05:16:07 am
Well done, guys. I guess it's finally out there and no longer open to dispute. The smoking gun was long in coming, and most of us never thought it would come.

I've been aware of the truth since the Kong Off 2 in November 2012 after a lot of private discussions, but aside from some heavy insinuation on my blog about the suspiciousness of Billy's submissions, I left it alone, because the bearer of troubling information generally accomplishes nothing except to paint a target on his back, have his motives scrutinized, and be vilified as a "conspiracy theorist." That is, unless you have proof (well, people will deny proof too if the truth is painful enough, but cognitive dissonance is a topic unto itself).

There are other reasons why I've tended to look the other way when it comes to Billy, one of them being the bizarre truth that his first illegitimate submission ("The Tape") was one of the key sparks that lit the King of Kong film, which in turn, became the spark that lit the entire DK competitive scene. Jeremy mentioned not wanting to live in a "house built on lies," but as awkward as it is, that's kinda what we're dealing with here, whether we like it or not.

If you dig into the making of the King of Kong, it turns out that Seth Gordon and Ed Cunningham chose to develop their footage into a Donkey Kong documentary only after the shoot was well underway, and only because the dramatic interplay between Billy and Steve was so strong. Billy's antics - of which The Tape was THE critical lynchpin - were key to that strength.

If The Tape never gets made, the King of Kong never gets made. And if the King of Kong never gets made... well... none of this ever happens. No heat develops around DK in the wake of the movie (which would have ended up being about Doris or Abdner or something), there's no multi-way world record competition, there are no Kong Offs, no DKF, and most of us never meet each other.

The Tape is our father.

It's a real mindfuck, and I've been grappling with this strange quandary for years, but Billy being Billy pretty much created the DK thing that we were all pulled into. And I am very, very grateful that I was pulled into it.

As for the other two, while The Tape was clearly a response to Wiebe entering the fray and "upsetting Billy's master plan for what he wanted to do" (ie, be the first player to break 1 million at DK), if you look at the timing of the latter two doctored scores, they were obviously timed in such a way as to (in Tape #2's case) hype continued competition and interest in classic gaming/DK as the movie was rolling out, and (in Tape #3's case) garner publicity for the opening of the International Video Game Hall of Fame. The scores were designed to be beaten, and he knew they'd be beaten.

In other words, I don't think Billy did those latter two scores for personal glory. I think, in his mind, he saw them as favors to the community, for which it's very obvious he has a deep fondness and generosity.

Sure, it's a weird, backwards, morally-questionable, and extremely Billy-ish way of operating, but there's something more multidimensional in his actions than just "cheating to be on top." I don't think he much cared about that anymore, at least when he faked the latter two scores. He was just trying to keep the heat on, for everybody's benefit. For all we know, somebody else was calling in favors, and he just went along with it. (In fact, there necessarily HAD to be numerous individuals involved for those scores to go up.)

So I'm just gonna stick with "misguided sense of the greater good," and not hate Billy for it.

All that said, this is a serious scoreboard here.

Take 'em down!
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: YesAffinity on February 03, 2018, 07:50:11 am
Didn't Billy put up a score greater than 933k on day 1 of a recent Kong Off?  I thought I remembered seeing the story at http://donkeykongblog.blogspot.com (http://donkeykongblog.blogspot.com), but don't find it now.  I remember the picture showed Billy standing on top of two Donkey Kong machines, fists raised in victory.

At any rate, I don't think this is a situation comparable to Todd Rogers.  Billy has plenty of witnessed and credible performances.  The fact that he could show up to a DKO and post a 900k+ score on day 1 speaks to his level of skill in the game.  Given the data points of the removed scores, I think it seems more than plausible that those instances were all marketing stunts, theatrics, done as part of evolving the TG brand, however you want to call it.  Was there deception?  Yes, well the evidence seems clear, that is.  I agree with ChrisP's analysis as well.  But I continue to agree and support the decisions made for removal of the scores.  I don't want to imply that I'm reversing my personal stance, and unless new information becomes available, I wouldn't

All things considered, I'm leaning toward a final conclusion of "it's not that bad".  Is a hand slap and additional discipline in order?  Yes.  Has that discipline been rendered?  On DKF, yes...on TG, we'll see but my guess is that it will be.  I think if Billy and any colluders that have not already been ousted from the community were to come forward and fess up and the reasoning lines up with what we're hoping/expecting - that these things were truly done in the interest of the community, albeit a bit mis-guided, well I think I for one could forgive and move one.

At a minimum, Banning should be interesting this year.  <popcorn>

Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Mario500 on February 03, 2018, 11:46:40 am
News article related to the analysis of the recordings:

https://venturebeat.com/2018/02/02/donkey-kong-world-record-analysis-claims-king-of-kong-star-billy-mitchell-lied/ (https://venturebeat.com/2018/02/02/donkey-kong-world-record-analysis-claims-king-of-kong-star-billy-mitchell-lied/)
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Shane_NC on February 03, 2018, 04:29:00 pm
I fully support Jeremy and agree 100% with his analysis of the evidence. Billy's scores in question should all be immediately removed. I take this evidence to be absolutely conclusive. Thank you so much Jeremy for taking the time to do this, and being in pursuit of the truth regardless of where it leads.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: up2ng on February 03, 2018, 04:54:43 pm
My thoughts and reactions about this news are very similar to what Chris posted above.  I've also been aware of the truth for a long time and have had mixed feelings about it over the years.

This news in particular and many other things which have happened over time within the hobby tend to make me sad and disillusioned about many of the aspects which I was excited about when I first got involved in this hobby.  However, the experiences that I have had and the friends which I have made as part of this community brings joy which greatly supercedes the negativity which has occured over the past decade or so and for that I am greatful.

In many ways I agree with Chris's premise that without Billy's actions with respect to this game we probably would not have any of the positive aspects of this community today.  The drama and intregue surrounding the early years of this high score competition was a clear catalyst in how so many of us became interested in the first place.

I'll take it a step further.  A long while back, shortly after I had broken one million points in MAME, I obtained access to the full game footage from Billy's 1.05M world record game which had been submitted to TG.  This was well before it had ever been posted in full or even as partial footage onto Youtube.  People really weren't supposed to have this footage but it had leaked out to a few of the players at that time.

As it now turns out, this footage now shows that this was a "fake" game insofar as it was at the very least misrepresented as a single credit live performance on an original arcade cabinet.  Instead, it has been shown that this game was likely played in MAME.  That game might have been played "normally" (a la with the -record option in Wolfmame) as a single credit legit MAME performance -- or maybe it was a spliced together MAME performance using the pause button, save-states and other tool assisted techniques.  We'll likely never know and I suspect that most members of the community wouldn't really care at this point after seeing the misrepresentations which have now been proven.  There is no .inp file available for this performance and no other evidence to prove that it was legitimate under the MAME platform rules.

However, what's interesting to me is that even though a few players were watching a "fake" performance -- they believed at the time that it was real and I am quite positive that this game footage was a major inspiration behind many of the innovations which began to be shared within the community for point pressing techniques and strategies as players began exploring the possibilities of not only reaching the game's kill screen, but in figuring out how to reach 1 million points and beyond, myself included.  This goes back to the old TG forum days and to when a few of us began to live stream our games back in the justin.tv era.

So, at the time, Billy really did innovate and discover many of the game's "secrets" surrounding the early evolution of point pressing going at least as far back as 2004.  The game play footage clearly shows ideas, techniques and strategies which were revolutionary at that time.  The fact that he may not have been able to actually execute these in a manner that's consistent with his legendary claims that he could show up in front of a live audience, pop a single credit, and achieve these types of scores "at will" is obviously understandable nowadays since we all know what it takes to get extremely good and how the randomness of the game itself makes this extremely unlikely -- but for whatever reason, those claims were made and that apparently led to these fabricated performances in order to support those claims.  For me, these claims were pretty much fully debunked after about 5 minutes of watching game play at the first Kong Off.  The level of disappointment and disillusionment upon that realization cannot be understated and I don't even think it affected me as much as some of the others at that time.  But at the same time, it's clear to me that his early innovations and his role in the timeline of events along the way (such as the ones shown in The King of Kong) were very important -- perhaps critical in the buildup of our current ongoing competition and to our community overall.

Given all of this, it's hard for me to know what to think about all of this exactly.  I do agree with the removal of scores which do not have enough evidence to prove that they were played in a legitimate manner for the platform, and I do agree that a player's lower score should replace the removed score if there is one that is known to pass the requirements given by the rules.  On that note, I am curious if any additional work will be done to review and determine if Billy has any legitimate scores higher than the 933k point game?  For example, I think that there were a series of two or three scores each by Billy and Steve which were all just under and/or just over one million points, some of which were officially submitted to TG.  I can remember some very lengthy papers written by Robert Mrukzek a long while back detailing these scores and publishing very detailed and extensive statistical breakdowns of at least one of these scores -- I want to say that it might have been a score of 1.014M points by Billy at that time?  Does footage of that game still exist somewhere?  Does Robert still have it?  Does TG have it?  Can that one be analyzed to see if it was also a MAME performance or original hardware?  I think that it would be nice to make sure that the "most correct" score is listed for Billy in the scoreboard.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: BillyGaines on February 03, 2018, 06:07:20 pm
Why leave the 933,900? Even if legit, the presence of illegitimate scores would disqualify him from being on any HSL, right?

That would make me the #1 Billy and I am not ready for all the instant fame.  ChrisP really summed everything up ... as he always does ... with perfection.  Without Billy no one would care about Donkey Kong scores.  It's a mixed bag indeed.  Jry made the correct move and I think it's time to move on.   Justice was served.   

I say there is a less than a zero chance of a <Billy> confession.   <Billy> is like J.R. on the 80's tv show Dallas.  About half the people hate him and the other half think he's awesome.  Either way, Donkey Kong is better with Billy Mitchell in the mix.  It was a ballsy move by Jry (the Todd Rogers scandal lubed the opening a bit) and his decisions are beyond reproach in my book.  Jry is all about fairness and has no ax to grind with  <Billy>. Robbie Lakeman should be the Donkey Kong news of the day but people love dirty laundry.  It looks like I picked a fun time to playing again! 
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: xelnia on February 03, 2018, 07:15:43 pm
On that note, I am curious if any additional work will be done to review and determine if Billy has any legitimate scores higher than the 933k point game?  For example, I think that there were a series of two or three scores each by Billy and Steve which were all just under and/or just over one million points, some of which were officially submitted to TG.  I can remember some very lengthy papers written by Robert Mrukzek a long while back detailing these scores and publishing very detailed and extensive statistical breakdowns of at least one of these scores -- I want to say that it might have been a score of 1.014M points by Billy at that time?  Does footage of that game still exist somewhere?  Does Robert still have it?  Does TG have it?  Can that one be analyzed to see if it was also a MAME performance or original hardware?  I think that it would be nice to make sure that the "most correct" score is listed for Billy in the scoreboard.

Billy did submit a 1.014M game to TG in 2004, in response to Wiebe's 1.006M submission. Billy withdrew the submission once TG opted to reject Wiebe's 1.006M. Robert Mruczek goes into detail about it here (http://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/176004-Dispute-Jeremy-Young-Arcade-Donkey-Kong-Points-Hammer-Allowed-Player-Billy-L-Mitchell-Score-1-062-800?p=925142&viewfull=1#post925142). While he doesn't mention it in that post, RTM has stated elsewhere that he no longer has any footage of that game...something about the VCR eating the tape. As far as I'm aware, no other taped submissions by Billy exist. The 933k is the only other TG-verified modern score. That score is also higher, I believe, than any of his Kong Off scores. There is a claimed high-900k score witnessed by Joel West, but no other corroborating evidence.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: f_symbols on February 03, 2018, 07:32:59 pm
Didn't Billy put up a score greater than 933k on day 1 of a recent Kong Off?  I thought I remembered seeing the story at http://donkeykongblog.blogspot.com (http://donkeykongblog.blogspot.com), but don't find it now.  I remember the picture showed Billy standing on top of two Donkey Kong machines, fists raised in victory...


https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10154125955218378&set=pb.620523377.-2207520000.1517714775 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10154125955218378&set=pb.620523377.-2207520000.1517714775)

 and

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10154125954008378&set=pb.620523377.-2207520000.1517714775 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10154125954008378&set=pb.620523377.-2207520000.1517714775)

I remembered seeing what you said as well, turns out it was a 930K
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: ChrisP on February 04, 2018, 03:19:21 am
(Adds nothing to the discussion, but just so that Chris G. will know that his memory isn't wonky, here is the post:
http://donkeykongblog.blogspot.com//2015/07/the-kong-off-4-is-here.html (http://donkeykongblog.blogspot.com//2015/07/the-kong-off-4-is-here.html))

That 930 was during the pre-tourney practice session.

IMO, Billy's actual PB is almost certainly quite a bit higher than the 933, because we know that he was at the very least working on getting 1M when Wiebe came onto the scene. So if he didn't do it, he probably came close.

I have always been shocked that the first tape was accepted at all. Wiebe's performances were audited to the umpteenth degree, requiring a full accounting of the hardware, etc., only to meet with rejection after rejection on technical grounds. Meanwhile Billy was able to submit audio-less performances (MAME audio would have been a drop-dead giveaway, especially in that era), with no onscreen visual of the player or the cabinet, while utilizing a totally unknown and unprecedented method of video capture. Much is made about how "unfair" the King of Kong was in its depiction of Twin Galaxies, but over the years I've come to see that while many of the details were off-kilter or omitted, the overall situation was actually quite accurately portrayed. Wiebe had the book thrown at him, while Mitchell was held to virtually no standards at all.

The easy acceptance of that first tape is what opened the door wide open for the second two submissions. However, again, I consider the latter two games to essentially be PR moves that Billy made as much for the sake of the Twin Galaxies brand as his own. These were not claims on a record that he still genuinely wanted to hold. Given that he knew his performance would not come under any real scrutiny from the referees, Billy had carte blanche to manufacture pretty much whatever score he wanted. He very deliberately chose not to though, opting instead to beat Steve/Hank's scores by only 1,100 points in each case before killing the games off.

The message I read from those submissions is something along the lines of "I'm just doing something for the press here, and I don't have the time or the desire anymore to do it straight up. I WANT you to take this record back and go for 1.1."

Obviously not the most ethically-pure move, but we've all seen much worse.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: serphintizer on February 04, 2018, 06:49:12 am
All this "Billy did it for the greater good!" is some of the ROFL twaddle I have read in a long time.

Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Josephjo on February 04, 2018, 10:29:40 am
All this "Billy did it for the greater good!" is some of the ROFL twaddle I have read in a long time.

Thank you Serphy for restoring my faith a little.

I was beginning to think I was going mad.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Xermon54 on February 04, 2018, 10:31:55 am
I don't really have much important information to add, but I'd like to speak about a conversation I had with Billy few years ago.

At one Kong Off, I asked Billy:"Tell me Billy, what is your real DK highscore?"
And he answered:"Why does everybody keep asking me that *laughing*. To be honest, my real highscore is higher than Hank Chien but lower than Robbie Lakeman"

At the time, Robbie had a 1,15m highscore (around that).

Personally, I totally believe Billy told me the truth when he told me that. I have a decent friendship with Billy, and the way he told me that seemed very honest. Obviously, he didn't tell me that it was on mame with savestates, which is obvious that it's the case lol. That being said, Billy probably have a real full game with a 1.14m pb somewhere.

That being said, why would Billy tell me he precisely that he has a pb higher than hank but lower than robbie? It could be that Billy had prepared a game beating Hank's 1,138m by 1,100 points, but giving up when Robbie beat it. (I don't know I'm just guessing).

That's all I wanted to add lol. If that's the case, it would be kindda funny Billy would have tried to send a tape beating Hank's 1,138m.




Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Josephjo on February 04, 2018, 11:40:38 am
I don't really have much important information to add, but I'd like to speak about a conversation I had with Billy few years ago.

At one Kong Off, I asked Billy:"Tell me Billy, what is your real DK highscore?"
And he answered:"Why does everybody keep asking me that *laughing*. To be honest, my real highscore is higher than Hank Chien but lower than Robbie Lakeman"

At the time, Robbie had a 1,15m highscore (around that).

Personally, I totally believe Billy told me the truth when he told me that. I have a decent friendship with Billy, and the way he told me that seemed very honest. Obviously, he didn't tell me that it was on mame with savestates, which is obvious that it's the case lol. That being said, Billy probably have a real full game with a 1.14m pb somewhere.

That being said, why would Billy tell me he precisely that he has a pb higher than hank but lower than robbie? It could be that Billy had prepared a game beating Hank's 1,138m by 1,100 points, but giving up when Robbie beat it. (I don't know I'm just guessing).

That's all I wanted to add lol. If that's the case, it would be kindda funny Billy would have tried to send a tape beating Hank's 1,138m.

I personally think that he did plan to keep up using his save state method but the top players eventually made it impossible for him to do so.

 
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Arbee on February 04, 2018, 02:02:57 pm
Hi, long-time MAMEdev and PCB hacker here.  I had a few comments.

1) What are you guys talking about with the screen rotation?  You mean he was doing videos in default non-"tate" mode rather than rotating the monitor?
2) Playing DK in current MAME on an Nvidia GSync or AMD FreeSync setup with the monitor physically rotated should be identical to a real machine aside from the PC inserting 1 frame of lag; this would make it harder, not easier.  Prior to the advent of GSync and FreeSync around 2012 there would've been even more frames of lag.
3) No current version of MAME has re-recording capabilities on INPs, nor can you load/save states during an INP recording and get anything useful to happen (the game would simply desync on playback if we allowed it).
4) Getting video out of any standard-res arcade PCB is trivial.  You just need a DK to JAMMA adapter and a Supergun.
5) There's no such thing as a "validated PCB".  Contrary to the unintentional hilarity in the movie, asking Nintendo to validate a PCB is roughly like calling up modern "all we make is Call of Duty" Activision about the Dragster record.  They'll probably make some noises about it out of politeness, but you'd be better off finding the surviving former employees of Ikegami.

So that's my objections to all of this.  I don't have a side in this fight, but I do want discussion of MAME kept in the realm of reality.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: xelnia on February 04, 2018, 02:36:31 pm
Hi, long-time MAMEdev and PCB hacker here.  I had a few comments.

Welcome to DKF!

1) What are you guys talking about with the screen rotation?  You mean he was doing videos in default non-"tate" mode rather than rotating the monitor?

It seems likely the first two scores were recorded using -norotate, with the third being record with -ror. I have witnessed people physically rotate their PC monitors to play this way.

2) Playing DK in current MAME on an Nvidia GSync or AMD FreeSync setup with the monitor physically rotated should be identical to a real machine aside from the PC inserting 1 frame of lag; this would make it harder, not easier.  Prior to the advent of GSync and FreeSync around 2012 there would've been even more frames of lag.

Lag isn't really a factor here; the issue isn't about whether the actual gameplay is easier or harder on MAME vs. real hardware, but the other benefits granted by using MAME (see below).

3) No current version of MAME has re-recording capabilities on INPs, nor can you load/save states during an INP recording and get anything useful to happen (the game would simply desync on playback if we allowed it).

There might be confusion here, because people are saying things like "splicing", "stitching", "save-sates", etc. I don't want to spell out the exact process here (for obvious reasons), but you absolutely CAN craft an INP that is made up of a segmented performance. And in versions of MAME that were available during the time Billy was setting these scores, it would be absolutely undetectable.

4) Getting video out of any standard-res arcade PCB is trivial.  You just need a DK to JAMMA adapter and a Supergun.

And Billy has stated that he doesn't even know how to switch a PCB in and out of a cab...so...

5) There's no such thing as a "validated PCB".  Contrary to the unintentional hilarity in the movie, asking Nintendo to validate a PCB is roughly like calling up modern "all we make is Call of Duty" Activision about the Dragster record.  They'll probably make some noises about it out of politeness, but you'd be better off finding the surviving former employees of Ikegami.

This is probably referring to the claims that his board was "validated" for the 1,050,200 score (the Mortgage Brokers score, not King of Kong). You're right in that the likelihood or reliability of that scenario is laughable.

So that's my objections to all of this.  I don't have a side in this fight, but I do want discussion of MAME kept in the realm of reality.

All MAMEdev input is greatly appreciated, especially if you (or anyone) have direct knowledge or experience into the progression of DK emulation.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: xelnia on February 04, 2018, 03:15:45 pm
It's not particularly relevant to the evidence at hand, but I'd like to share this post (http://www.classicarcadegaming.com/forums/index.php/topic,1437.msg23404.html#msg23404) from over at CAGDC. In that post, Ben Jos Walbeehm recounts the pain and suffering he went through after he beat Billy's 1982 score using MAME. He was actually the first publicly known person to beat Billy at DK, pre-dating Tim Sczerby's arcade WR. It's heart-breaking to read how he was treated by the community, especially knowing what we know now about Billy's use of MAME.

Ben Jos was a DK champion, and he rarely gets the credit for it.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: ChrisP on February 04, 2018, 05:07:14 pm
All this "Billy did it for the greater good!" is some of the ROFL twaddle I have read in a long time.

I think those of us who are interpreting Billy's actions this way are well aware that we're being charitable with that interpretation, and we're all conflicted about it.

However, the interpretation that Billy was working alone out of pure self-interest is demonstrably false. The situation is much grayer than that.

We know that, at the very least, there were more cooks in this kitchen than just Billy, since getting these scores produced and verified would have required coordination between numerous people, especially on the technical level. There was indeed a conspiracy here <Mruczek>.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Sock Master on February 04, 2018, 08:44:41 pm
2) Playing DK in current MAME on an Nvidia GSync or AMD FreeSync setup with the monitor physically rotated should be identical to a real machine aside from the PC inserting 1 frame of lag; this would make it harder, not easier.  Prior to the advent of GSync and FreeSync around 2012 there would've been even more frames of lag.

Not so, and that is how it can be detected that Billy's tapes were not recorded from actual DK PCBs.

Older versions of MAME did not emulate the way DK's video generator circuitry scans VRAM while the monitor scans across the screen when composing/drawing the raster image.   Old versions of MAME simply composed a complete image every 1/60th of a second then displayed them on the monitor.

That means any time sensitive writes to VRAM do not produce the same result in MAME as they do on DK hardware.   The entirety of the frame in (older) MAME shows what the video memory contained at one moment in time.   The frame from DK hardware shows the contents of VRAM across a spread of time - the left side of the screen shows an earlier point in time than the right side the screen.

Newer and even current versions of MAME do try to emulate this scanning, but even still, it will not display the same contents in these frames.  The latest version of MAME happens to emulate this scan from right to left instead of from left to right, so the timing information is opposite.

Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Sqrlmonger on February 04, 2018, 10:10:59 pm
All this "Billy did it for the greater good!" is some of the ROFL twaddle I have read in a long time.

I think those of us who are interpreting Billy's actions this way are well aware that we're being charitable with that interpretation, and we're all conflicted about it.

However, the interpretation that Billy was working alone out of pure self-interest is demonstrably false. The situation is much grayer than that.

We know that, at the very least, there were more cooks in this kitchen than just Billy, since getting these scores produced and verified would have required coordination between numerous people, especially on the technical level. There was indeed a conspiracy here <Mruczek>.

I appreciate this post quite a bit, and I could definitely sense the conflict but it's nice to see it acknowledged at least.

This might be a crazy first post, but I did sort of sign up cause I had something I wanted to say about this, so hopefully I don't come off as just a new account for creating drama, this is not my intent at all.

For background I am not a vested member of the community but I have always been a fan of what this site and others like it do.  I just love good-natured competition that drives people to be get better.  I am keenly aware that a lot of what was in the KoK documentary was "Hollywood" so I try to base as little on that as I can, though admittedly it was my first introduction to this stuff.

Anyways, what I really wanted to add was a perspective of someone from more outside the community looking in. From this perspective I think the "Billy did it for the greater good" reasoning is not a good look.  I would hasten to add that how things look isn't necessarily the most important thing, but it does speak to the community's ability to inspire and bring in new members.  I won't presume to speculate on how that calculation looks, in terms of what is best for this community that I've only just now joined, but I do think a "Billy may have thought it was for the greater good, but fraudulent scores can ONLY hurt the community in the long run" sentiment would accomplish the same thing while delivering a better overall message.  Though in fairness, I suspect you would all agree with this, I would just hope to see it more explicit so people know where the community stands in stark terms (this thread is going to get a LOT of attention and I do not want to see news articles creating drama from ambiguity).

Ultimately, what's important to me as a spectator/guest here is to see that integrity and fair play are the highest goal of the community. Based on how this was handled I think this has been demonstrated to great effect and this community stands to grow from taking an active role and a firm but fair stance once the facts were in (though I have serious concerns about TG, but that's a whole other topic).

The only other thing I would add is on the issue of Billy's other scores, and specifically the issue of what does the leaderboard actually represent? I think this is an opportunity for the community to be proactive and discuss this in more depth. What has already been touched on in this thread is a good start.  Knowing that the LB is a record of what has transpired or a privilege for competitors who operate in good faith or something else entirely, is in my view a very good thing to know.  Knowing what the LB represents and having it as a defined and public statement of the community's views will make it much easier to answer these questions going forward without having to wrestle with the implications of each decision as you make it.

If it was up to me I would probably aim more for a historical approach. But I would also like to see any proven frauds/cheats scores reviewed at a higher standard of proof once they are found to have cheated at all (with all scores being temporarily suspended pending the outcome of the inquiry). Any scores that are clearly legit would stand, anything questionable or not meeting the higher standard would be asterisked and possibly included in the list for posterity but not considered for ranking.  But again, I recognize that as a "newb" here my thoughts probably won't carry a lot of weight, just a suggestion to consider.

Anyways, thanks to anyone who read such a long first post, and best of luck to you folks. Please keep up the great work!

Cheers~
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: francoisadt on February 05, 2018, 07:18:56 am
Hi, long-time MAMEdev and PCB hacker here.  I had a few comments.

1) What are you guys talking about with the screen rotation?  You mean he was doing videos in default non-"tate" mode rather than rotating the monitor?
2) Playing DK in current MAME on an Nvidia GSync or AMD FreeSync setup with the monitor physically rotated should be identical to a real machine aside from the PC inserting 1 frame of lag; this would make it harder, not easier.  Prior to the advent of GSync and FreeSync around 2012 there would've been even more frames of lag.
3) No current version of MAME has re-recording capabilities on INPs, nor can you load/save states during an INP recording and get anything useful to happen (the game would simply desync on playback if we allowed it).
4) Getting video out of any standard-res arcade PCB is trivial.  You just need a DK to JAMMA adapter and a Supergun.
5) There's no such thing as a "validated PCB".  Contrary to the unintentional hilarity in the movie, asking Nintendo to validate a PCB is roughly like calling up modern "all we make is Call of Duty" Activision about the Dragster record.  They'll probably make some noises about it out of politeness, but you'd be better off finding the surviving former employees of Ikegami.

So that's my objections to all of this.  I don't have a side in this fight, but I do want discussion of MAME kept in the realm of reality.

Confirm my understanding of the MAME play by Billy.
a) Some mention there were possible ways to record the .INP playback via another videorecorder and then inside the cabinet play this back to the monitor? Is this what Xelnia is suggesting here?

Another question :
B) why is it not possible Billy had play on MAME-cabinet for real and just did record the screen while he was playing?
If the case is the later then the MAME DK score is still a valid score but not an arcade PCB DK version of the game but a MAME versione played and recorded. If there are no facts to certainty that he did not play the game why not upheld the possibiolity that he did but just on an MAME enabled cabinet which is quite popular years later (2018) eg: ICADE ect..?

That time when Billy did play it is all possible that custom MAME cabinet could have been the case - it just would have been a PC and a PCB inside the cabinet for game play and feed the graphics to the monitor from the pc. Then afterwards only do show the PCb footage and not showing the PC?

C) If this game-play is a valid MAME score why not list this on MAME DK score list instead?



Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: dnickolas on February 05, 2018, 09:12:12 am
Mame scores have a different mechanism for validation. Without recording on the proper version and looking at the INP it could have been “spliced” in the “keep trying a level until you get good rng” sense. The play style suggests that that may have been exactly what happened.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: TheSunshineFund on February 05, 2018, 09:15:02 am
How long would putting together an .inp like this take in theory?

And are we looking at a situation similar to what PAC did?
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Josephjo on February 05, 2018, 09:33:11 am
How long would putting together an .inp like this take in theory?


 <Billy> in conversation with George Riley (Homerwannabee) at The Kong Off 2 in Denver.

Quote
"I'll let you on a little secret. Most people think I broke the record in one day, but in reality it took me two weeks of practice doing it."

This was posted in August last year in The DKF Shoutbox long before Xelnia's findings.

(http://i68.tinypic.com/xpn8fq.png)

I reckon it took Mitchell about 2 weeks  ROFL
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: xelnia on February 05, 2018, 10:12:33 am
How long would putting together an .inp like this take in theory?

And are we looking at a situation similar to what PAC did?

Unlikely this is like PAC, since he was manipulating WolfMAME. Manipulating vanilla MAME would be far easier. I reckon you could do it in a day or two.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: konghusker on February 05, 2018, 12:05:23 pm
This whole thing is soooo disappointing. I like Billy. I agree with everything Dean and Chris said. The entire saga is what created many new friendships and adventures for most of us here today. For that, we can thank Billy and Steve. I also agree that ANY score not properly verified needs removed. Sure wish I was able to go to ko this time. Should be interesting. Still, sad this is showing up, but it's best to be thorough. Still has awesome hot sauce!
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: maximumsteve on February 05, 2018, 12:49:40 pm
For those that don't know me, My name is Steven Kleisath and I am the undisputed Guinness and TG world record holder for High Scores of "Mario Bros." single player and doubles play. I mention this because a score being legitimate is as important to me, when I know the hard work and determination it takes to break through to take down a mammoth score. I am just catching up with this relentless scrutiny of Billy Mitchell's DK scores on here.

I am friends with Billy Mitchell and Robert Childs. I have known them for years, and interact with them regularly on our Retro Arcade Night event we put on throughout the year at Arcade Game Sales in Fort Lauderdale, FL.

I also consider myself a friend to some of the DK players that have launched this new wave of trying to disprove Bill's past scores on Donkey Kong.
It is to the point where I feel I need to give my 2 cents worth of what I know and what I believe to be true and clear.
First order of business is Boomers in Fort Lauderdale in 2010.....
Boomers, also known as Grand Prix Raceway,  which was considered the world's largest arcade at the time, ironically did not have a DK cabinet at that time, so a distributor brought to the venue the cabinet that Bill would play on. Todd Rogers and his wife were in attendance, Robert Childs ofcourse was in attendance, the distributor who brought the game was there, but even more importantly, Peter Bouvier, the owner of Twin Galaxies at the time and a family member, was 100% there in attendance at the time of the rollover of the game, along with others witnessing in the room. These Original Tapes will show not only the gameplay, but the room overview of everyone that was in attendance. Also the manager of Boomers and a technician working there, were present.
On a personal note, I have known these guys for years, and they have families and full time careers of their own, and don't have time to go to such lengths to fabricate game scores.
As for the Direct Feed/MAME board part of this....
There are screen shots from the T.V. post that claims it was running Mame. You can see the defect on the right hand side. There is no way you can emulate a monitor defect like this in Mame, so even if someone used Mame in a cabinet, there would be a significant, obvious wiring addition tongue video output from the PCB. But if it was a video capture, then it wouldn't have the monitor defect. I haven't read into the whole post explaining the allegations, but from the screen shots they are making the references too, it's 100% an image of a Sanyo EZ20 Monitor.
CGA to Vega converters were not available back then, and even if they were, I am not aware of any that can replicate a monitor defect or can adjust an inverted video signal. For example, if your TV screen had a bunch of wavy lines and you recorded the Super Bowl on your DVR, then moved that DVR to a different TV, you shouldn't see any wavy lines.
In closing for now, Billy Mitchell will begin addressing this whole situation tommorrow, Tuesday February 6th, between 7:00-8:30 PM at https://www.compoundmedia.com (https://www.compoundmedia.com) on the East Side Dave Show. MUCH will be revealed in Audio and Video form in the coming weeks, so tune in and stay tuned.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: YesAffinity on February 05, 2018, 01:21:25 pm
There are screen shots from the T.V. post that claims it was running Mame. You can see the defect on the right hand side. There is no way you can emulate a monitor defect like this in Mame, so even if someone used Mame in a cabinet, there would be a significant, obvious wiring addition tongue video output from the PCB. But if it was a video capture, then it wouldn't have the monitor defect. I haven't read into the whole post explaining the allegations, but from the screen shots they are making the references too, it's 100% an image of a Sanyo EZ20 Monitor.
CGA to Vega converters were not available back then, and even if they were, I am not aware of any that can replicate a monitor defect or can adjust an inverted video signal.
The likely scenario is the other way around -> VGA mame output to CGA.  ArcadeVGA/JPAC is one such solution.  I had my current MAME ArcadeVGA/JPAC-driven cab running circa 2004/5.  When were the scores in question performed?  Sorry if I've missed that detail in all this, and don't have the history fully committed to memory (honest question).

That leaves the question of inverting for a Sanyo 20EZ.  CGA output to Sanyo inverter board?

And there was an extra TV at at least one of these performances?  DK board set -> Sanyo 20EZ is a complete inverted transmission is it not?  So, how did the signal get to the viewing TV uninverted, in an original hardware scenario?

Plenty of scenarios for overcoming the technological hurdles, but at the time, a MAME PC outputting through a ArcadeVGA/JPAC setup to a stock Nintendo inverter board and Sanyo 20EZ in a DK cab, while simultaneously outputting to a composite TV (the ArcadeVGA has a composite output on it as well as a VGA DB15 output) seems the path of least resistance, and could have supported MAME and use of  recorded .inp for the performance.

Alternatively, if the cab performed on was 100% original, how did they get non-inverted video out of the cab to the viewing TV?

I think understanding the technology used to produce a direct feed at that time is also important here.  Inexpensive NTSC to composite and s-video encoders existed at the time.  But that still doesn't account for getting inverted video in a viewable format to a standard TV.

If I've messed up any of the details that might affect the technological approach for the time period, please correct me.

I also have a family and work 50-60 hours a week on average at my day job, and still find the time necessary to be a score chaser and general arcade technology enthusiast.   Not being stand-offish, just saying, we are all passionate about our pursuits. :)

:edit: I need to test my Arcade VGA and see if a composite signal comes out of it while the cab is outputting to the arcade monitor.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: JCHarrist on February 05, 2018, 01:44:35 pm
Todd Rogers and his wife were in attendance, Robert Childs ofcourse was in attendance, the distributor who brought the game was there, but even more importantly, Peter Bouvier, the owner of Twin Galaxies at the time and a family member, was 100% there in attendance at the time of the rollover of the game, along with others witnessing in the room.

At 1:53 in this video, the games are over and Billy says that they are "waiting for Pete."


http://youtu.be/bFLGF933tgc?t=111 (http://youtu.be/bFLGF933tgc?t=111)

So how did Pete witness any "rollover" when he wasn't there yet?
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: maximumsteve on February 05, 2018, 02:52:44 pm
From what I was told, that footage you are talking about was well after the game was over. Peter Bouvier was there for the game play and there is footage of the game play and overhead of the room. Again the 2:42 clip that Robert took was well after the game was over. This will be one of the many things discussed on the show Bill will be on tommorrow night, Tuesday February 6th.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: xelnia on February 05, 2018, 02:54:56 pm
I think it's important to point out that the crux of the issue here is MAME vs. PCB. The direct feed issue is important, but it doesn't affect the main body of evidence.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: xelnia on February 05, 2018, 03:11:19 pm
Todd Rogers and his wife were in attendance, Robert Childs ofcourse was in attendance, the distributor who brought the game was there, but even more importantly, Peter Bouvier, the owner of Twin Galaxies at the time and a family member, was 100% there in attendance at the time of the rollover of the game, along with others witnessing in the room.

At 1:53 in this video, the games are over and Billy says that they are "waiting for Pete."


http://youtu.be/bFLGF933tgc?t=111 (http://youtu.be/bFLGF933tgc?t=111)

So how did Pete witness any "rollover" when he wasn't there yet?

From what I was told, that footage you are talking about was well after the game was over. Peter Bouvier was there for the game play and there is footage of the game play and overhead of the room. Again the 2:42 clip that Robert took was well after the game was over. This will be one of the many things discussed on the show Bill will be on tommorrow night, Tuesday February 6th.

Billy repeats the "waiting for Pete" story in the IVGHOF video: Not only that, he says Pete didn't make it at all.

Even if Pete WAS there for the rollover, why didn't he stay for the 10-15 minutes MAX it would have taken to get to the end of the game? Pete shows up for the rollover than leaves before the end of the game (which would happen in less than 15 minutes), then the people at Boomers are what? Waiting for him to come back? So Billy can "hopefully say hi" to him...as if he wasn't just there?
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Barra on February 05, 2018, 03:25:49 pm
Are we all getting free subscriptions so we can listen to the show?
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: gstrain on February 05, 2018, 03:51:23 pm
From what I was told, that footage you are talking about was well after the game was over. Peter Bouvier was there for the game play and there is footage of the game play and overhead of the room. Again the 2:42 clip that Robert took was well after the game was over. This will be one of the many things discussed on the show Bill will be on tommorrow night, Tuesday February 6th.
It would be great if Billy would go ahead and immediately release the original tapes of all of the games in question.  So the 1.062M, 1.05M and 1.047M games.  I think that could go a long way to helping sort this out and provide proof of his accomplishments.  There's no reason he wouldn't go ahead and release them at this point, right?

-George
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: maximumsteve on February 05, 2018, 04:07:32 pm
The whole group was there for the Donkey Kong record that day. Not everybody was there for Donkey Kong Junior, which had gone until around Midnight. Bill will go more into detail about this tommorrow night. Andrew, per your question, you can get a 7 day free trial of the show, or it will be available on YouTube on Thursday.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: dwayne on February 06, 2018, 01:37:52 am
People have asked me to make a statement.  What i have to say is two things never underestimate the power of denial and follow the money in this scenario. This would explain William Mitchell's actions but he will never tell the truth but lies have no substantial capacity to endure, truth will always be made known.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: maximumsteve on February 06, 2018, 06:43:31 am
I am about to give the info required to sign in for free to hear the show Bill will be on tonight and also give the Youtube addy to view it there, as it will be up by Thursday...
To follow up on a personal note to what I put out there yesterday, Ultimately,to be a devil's advocate, if you will, and completely objective about this whole thing, I did express to Bill that in the end, what he needs to do is just go to a welcomed and official place/arcade, whatever, and sit or stand in front of a DK machine that has been deemed 100% verified official and get his score in question. Play all day or weekend if he has too, as we know even the most skilled player in DK doesn't automatically achieve a score like that on a first try live. Possible but not probable, but at the same time, extend an open invitation to anyone who wants to show up to be there in person/attendance to witness it at the same time. There should also be a live stream or broadcast of it such as FB Live/Twitch, etc.. If any of you people disputed any of my Mario Bros. or Turbo Ms. Pac Man records, that is exactly what I would do. Put your money where your mouth is and watch me play the game in front of all the skeptic's faces, get the score in question or better, and drop the mic. So even though Bill will start to address the past tonight, I told him of my own accord, that he should do that in the near future and soon. Now on to the login info for tonight.... If you go to www.compoundmedia.com (http://www.compoundmedia.com) and type for the user name, temp@compoundmedia.com, and the password is Temppass2017, you will be logged in for free. Make sure on the password, that first "T" is upper case. The youtube channel to view it as soon as Wednesday or Thursday, is https://www.youtube.com/user/eastsidedavevideos (https://www.youtube.com/user/eastsidedavevideos)
Thanks.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: QAOP Spaceman on February 06, 2018, 07:21:53 am
Quote
what he needs to do is just go to a welcomed and official place/arcade, whatever, and sit or stand in front of a DK machine that has been deemed 100% verified official and get his score in question.

I'm not sure what this would achieve.

Everybody knows Billy Mitchell is a gifted video game player.

What's under discussion is these previous scores that seem to have been proved to have been done using an emulator and passed off as having been done on an arcade machine.

The only plausible reason he would have used an emulator is to take advantage of being able to play levels over and over again, a suspicion strengthened by the opinions of virtually all the world class players who have watched the games, and the raw statistics.

Playing Donkey Kong in an arcade is not going to be able to undo this.

Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: TheSunshineFund on February 06, 2018, 07:34:59 am
Apparently this show has some Kong Off History

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_McDonald_(radio_personality)#Special_Delivery

Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Arbee on February 06, 2018, 08:56:25 am
Newer and even current versions of MAME do try to emulate this scanning, but even still, it will not display the same contents in these frames.  The latest version of MAME happens to emulate this scan from right to left instead of from left to right, so the timing information is opposite.

99% of arcade and console games only read the inputs during Vblank, so the rest of this doesn't matter in terms of playability - game state can only change one way during each frame.  If you can prove DK works otherwise (the MAME debugger is your friend there) that would be a very interesting data point.  Regarding the backwards scan, has anyone filed either a MAMETesters bug or a Github defect?  We have someone working out the nitpicky details of Popeye right now so they might be convinced to take a look at DK too.

Cheers,
-RB
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: TheSunshineFund on February 06, 2018, 09:06:10 am
I am about to give the info required to sign in for free to hear the show Bill will be on tonight

Thanks for providing the info Steve.  Much appreciated.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Fast Eddie on February 06, 2018, 10:42:29 am
Hi all,

I dont really play or follow the scene anymore, but just wanted to say well done for proving what we already knew!

Its all kinda sad in a way, but it also made smile  :D  had to be done imo.

Apparently this show has some Kong Off History

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_McDonald_(radio_personality)#Special_Delivery



Oh dear, do i have a distant repressed memory of some radio/dj clowns spoiling an early kong off by shouting utter drivel while the players were trying to put up scores?

 8)



Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: gstrain on February 06, 2018, 11:10:53 am
Regarding the backwards scan, has anyone filed either a MAMETesters bug or a Github defect?  We have someone working out the nitpicky details of Popeye right now so they might be convinced to take a look at DK too.
Yes, I logged a MAMETesters bug last night referencing the screenshots from this thread: http://mametesters.org/view.php?id=6868 (http://mametesters.org/view.php?id=6868)
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Sock Master on February 06, 2018, 11:19:10 am
Newer and even current versions of MAME do try to emulate this scanning, but even still, it will not display the same contents in these frames.  The latest version of MAME happens to emulate this scan from right to left instead of from left to right, so the timing information is opposite.

99% of arcade and console games only read the inputs during Vblank, so the rest of this doesn't matter in terms of playability - game state can only change one way during each frame.  If you can prove DK works otherwise (the MAME debugger is your friend there) that would be a very interesting data point.  Regarding the backwards scan, has anyone filed either a MAMETesters bug or a Github defect?  We have someone working out the nitpicky details of Popeye right now so they might be convinced to take a look at DK too.

We're not talking about game state at all, simply the manner in which MAME composes the contents of the frame it displays vs original hardware.

DK hardware's video generator reads the contents of VRAM as it composes the signal going to the monitor.  That means the scan lines at the start of the scan display the state of VRAM from an earlier point in time than the scan lines at the end of the scan.   The Z80 keeps drawing stuff into VRAM while the video raster is going.

Old MAME does not emulate this hardware at all, it simply composes the screen in it's entirety at one time-point in the vblank.   This means the image does not contain any changes the Z80 made to the VRAM during that 1/60th of a second spread of time, only a 'freeze frame' moment in time.

DK program code takes several frames to compose the contents of the screen when setting up the game stages.

No sign of real-time video generation = old mame.

Evidence of real-time video generation, scanned left to right over time = authentic DK PCB.

Evidence of real-time video generation, scanned right to left over time = new mame.

Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: VON on February 06, 2018, 06:40:32 pm
Can we use the footage from the IVGHOF announcement to demonstrate his Junior play was also MAME-generated?
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: bh on February 06, 2018, 07:47:47 pm
After seeing Wes Copeland's argument against Mitchell's run, I decided to figure out just how unusual it is.

I started by transcribing all of the blue barrel and flame smashes from barrel stages on Mitchell's 1,050,000 game. Here's my spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1eB_wmBYpyng2jeu29DX0HxWd5AUCzqAEHGjrhjte8mM/edit#gid=0) with timestamps. I hope this is accurate. The video has serious quality problems and much of the time I was stuck inferring scores from digit rollover in the blurry total score. I welcome any efforts to replicate, extend or amend this transcript.

What I found is that the score distribution in the 1.05m run is significantly shifted toward the high range. There are fourteen 300 pt blue barrel smashes and thirty-four 800 pt smashes. On average his blue barrel smashes were worth 570 points and his flame smashes 477 points. Between these two types of smashes he scored 78,500 points over his runs. The odds of this happening fairly are about 1 in 360 (99.73th percentile), or about once per 450 hours of near perfect play.

I suspect a transcription of variable scoring events in rivet and conveyor stages will push the odds into absurd heights.

Thanks goes to @othercriteria for double checking my math, and Wes Copeland and the folks on #mame for patiently answering my questions.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: xelnia on February 06, 2018, 07:53:45 pm
After seeing Wes Copeland's argument against Mitchell's run, I decided to figure out just how unusual it is.

I started by transcribing all of the blue barrel and flame smashes from barrel stages on Mitchell's 1,050,000 game. Here's my spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1eB_wmBYpyng2jeu29DX0HxWd5AUCzqAEHGjrhjte8mM/edit#gid=0) with timestamps. I hope this is accurate. The video has serious quality problems and much of the time I was stuck inferring scores from digit rollover in the blurry total score. I welcome any efforts to replicate, extend or amend this transcript.

What I found is that the score distribution in the 1.05m run is significantly shifted toward the high range. There are fourteen 300 pt blue barrel smashes and thirty-four 800 pt smashes. On average his blue barrel smashes were worth 570 points and his flame smashes 477 points. Between these two types of smashes he scored 78,500 points over his runs. The odds of this happening fairly are about 1 in 360 (99.73th percentile), or about once per 450 hours of near perfect play.

I suspect a transcription of variable scoring events in rivet and conveyor stages will push the odds into absurd heights.

Thanks goes to @othercriteria for double checking my math, and Wes Copeland and the folks on #mame for patiently answering my questions.

I'll definitely dive into this data soon, but it's worth reading this thread on CAGDC (http://www.classicarcadegaming.com/forums/index.php/topic,4164.0.html) about the bugs involved in expected smash values for variable scoring items (blue barrels, fireballs, pies). In short, the EV of a fireball is 450 points and the EV of a blue barrel or pie is 525 points (except for one pie that will be a forced 300).
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Mitch Mitchell on February 07, 2018, 07:33:33 am
Incredible catch finding the loading differences, thanks for the hard work and concise post.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Arbee on February 07, 2018, 09:48:14 am
We're not talking about game state at all, simply the manner in which MAME composes the contents of the frame it displays vs original hardware.

DK hardware's video generator reads the contents of VRAM as it composes the signal going to the monitor.  That means the scan lines at the start of the scan display the state of VRAM from an earlier point in time than the scan lines at the end of the scan.   The Z80 keeps drawing stuff into VRAM while the video raster is going.

Old MAME does not emulate this hardware at all, it simply composes the screen in it's entirety at one time-point in the vblank.   This means the image does not contain any changes the Z80 made to the VRAM during that 1/60th of a second spread of time, only a 'freeze frame' moment in time.

This isn't a lack of emulation in old MAME, it's just that on older PCs (and current Raspberry Pis) sampling the generated bitmap more than once per frame was extremely slow, because it involved flushing the PC's caches of everything they knew about the Z80 state each sample.  Nowadays we can get away with that.

Unfortunately the left-to-right vs right-to-left thing is weird because we're just showing what the Z80 is drawing, so it makes me think we're gonna need a logic analyzer on a PCB to understand what's really happening.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Sock Master on February 07, 2018, 10:18:06 am
This isn't a lack of emulation in old MAME, it's just that on older PCs (and current Raspberry Pis) sampling the generated bitmap more than once per frame was extremely slow, because it involved flushing the PC's caches of everything they knew about the Z80 state each sample.  Nowadays we can get away with that.

Unfortunately the left-to-right vs right-to-left thing is weird because we're just showing what the Z80 is drawing, so it makes me think we're gonna need a logic analyzer on a PCB to understand what's really happening.

Old MAME ran the Z80 for 50000 cycles (or however many Z80 cycles it executed in 1/60th of a second), then composed a full, complete frame to display, then ran the Z80 for another 50000, then composed the next frame, then another 50000 cycles, next frame, etc.  Simple as that.

Newer MAME interleaves the Z80 and composition of the screen at much finer intervals so there is real-time interaction between the Z80's actions and what appears in the frame.   MAME composes the screen in the opposite direction from actual DK hardware.   Reverse the order and it'll more closely match actual DK hardware.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Scoundrl on February 07, 2018, 10:45:28 am
Does it still draw opposite the arcade hardware no matter the screen orientation 0/180 or 90/270?

Is it possible this cab was using a none sanyo monitor and the inverter they were using (or the inverter they would have used to get the direct feed) is the cause of this?
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Sock Master on February 07, 2018, 11:57:24 am
Does it still draw opposite the arcade hardware no matter the screen orientation 0/180 or 90/270?

Is it possible this cab was using a none sanyo monitor and the inverter they were using (or the inverter they would have used to get the direct feed) is the cause of this?

MAME renders the frames the same way no matter which orientation is selected.  At this time, no version of MAME regardless of settings, rotation or monitor will render frames the way actual DK hardware does.   Now that they are aware of the issue, I'm pretty sure MAME dev will fix it in future releases of MAME.

The color inverter does not affect rendering order, just inverses the colors.   DK hardware will still render like DK hardware even if using a normal monitor and a color inverter.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: ChrisP on February 07, 2018, 10:21:14 pm
Since I weighed in on this thread, I just wanna say one thing, for the record.

In light of some reading and thinking and talking that I've been doing over these past few days, much of which is all new (at least to me), and in light of how the situation continues to develop, I'm just gonna say this: if I were to write those posts now, they would not be nearly so charitable towards Billy. And I'm coming to regret having expressed myself with the "it all worked out for the best" softballs.

I don't remember the order of the "five stages of grief" but I'm pretty sure I'm now at anger.  ;D

Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: TheSunshineFund on February 08, 2018, 05:50:46 am
So who was the first to surmise that Billy was using MAME?  I know there was mention of a Hank.ppt at one point a long while back, was that part of his deck?  Just interested for historical purposes of all this impressive work.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: LMDAVE on February 08, 2018, 06:09:11 am
I hear ya, Chris. It's hard not to feel a little anger or confusion on this one. Confusion to me being, what more evidence is needed? Too many things need to be explained from Billy's side.

I'm at the stage of "why?". I hate to do any type of speculation, but if I had to try to put my own guess on why these tapes were made, this would be my guess. I think maybe the first tape was made from a standpoint of "if it could be done", could a tape be made with MAME to show a million point game. And maybe it was done and just filed away, never intending to be used (maybe joked about it to others that "I have this huge score on tape"). Then the emergence of Steve Wiebe comes along, and obvious he wasn't going away, so the decision to reveal that tape came out. The Fun Spot delivery. "This is a score they've been waiting to see for a long time and I held it for far too long" -Billy to Doris

That particular tape was 40-50K over Steve's score. Maybe then after the submission passed the eyes of the referees and everyone else, that became clear that this can be done again. Each subsequent tape after that was the famous 1,100 over the WR then dump the game.

That sort of taunting was accepted because it was just Billy being Billy, but to find out afterwards that those scores are fraudulent (allegedly), that's the part that hard to get over for those of us that have many years invested in this particular game.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Xermon54 on February 08, 2018, 06:34:58 am
I agree with Dave. At first, his MAME submission were probably done for entertainment purpose, just for messing around, or to see how much points could be done, etc. But then, once he saw that his score got accepted, he saw an opened door for continuing his cheater, up to a point of no return.

Also, if Twin Galaxies wouldn't have accepted those direct feed score in the first place, Billy wouldn't had been encouraged to continue his cheating. It's like an olympic athlete taking steroids but never get tested positive in competition, he'll obviously keep on cheating.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: DonkeyKongGenius on February 08, 2018, 06:40:45 am
I actually find myself indifferent towards this matter. It isn't that I don't care, in that I would like to know if someone cheated or not, but I guess I have no real emotional connection to Billy so whether he or anyone else has evidence presented in a case against them, well, I just say... O.K. thanks for the information.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: TheSunshineFund on February 08, 2018, 06:51:31 am
I have no real emotional connection to Billy

Dat sig doh.

I think it's pretty difficult not to have one for a great majority of us.  I would have never rediscovered classic games if I didn't see KoK and realize that people still played these games, etc, I would have never went up to Funspot if I didn't see that movie, met a lot of new great friends.  It's definitely a mix of  <popcorn> ,  <thefinger> and  BibleThump
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: YesAffinity on February 08, 2018, 10:23:57 am
Guys,

I would like to submit some additional evidence.  As the conversations continue, things just aren't adding up for me, from the technical perspective.  I'm not able to reconcile either scenario, given what is currently known - neither that the performances WERE absolutely mame, nor that they WERE absolutely true arcade hardware.

I think first and foremost, it is of extreme importance, because so much emphasis is being placed on the visual evidence of the gameplay, that the likely environment of capturing of the footage be replicated as best as possible.

Considering technology that was likely used to capture the video, without going into the hardware that was actually producing the gameplay, it appears that:
-The 1.047M video is a camera pointed at a screen
-The 1.05M video is a vcr recording of a direct feed

If there is actual knowledge contradicting these assumptions, and of how the footage was recorded, in part or in whole, please provide that information.

In both assumed scenarios, you would effectively have a 60 hz screen being captured by a 29.97fps recording device.  Even if the assumptions aren't exactly right, this is still the most likely scenario for the time period.  60hz screen being recorded with a 29.97fps recording device.

So, I think it's important we replicate that environment for analysis.  Comparing a 60fps capture of a 60hz signal is not apples to apples - twice as many frames being captured in this scenario.

Below is a video that as closely replicates the original recording scenario as I am able to without going to the thrift store for a VCR and some crappy old VHS movie to record over.  My cab is generating a 60hz signal, my video processor is at 480p/60, my capture card is at 29.97fps, OBS is at 29.97fps.  I also have my webcam at 29.97, capturing the screen (60hz).

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/226969998 (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/226969998)
I will let anyone who wants, to draw their own conclusions.  In some instances, like on L=1 rivets, there is no "lead-in" drawing of the screen.  One frame is the stacked monkeys, the next screen is the entire rivet level populated on the screen.

I will happily provide the non-streamed recording file to anyone that wants it for further analysis and comparison.

Now this alone still doesn't answer all questions, but I think it objectively aids the argument that the recordings were not provably MAME beyond the shadow of a doubt.  And I emphasize OBJECTIVELY.  I simply want answers, like I think everyone here, and I believe is the intent of the original analysis/OP.

There is also potentially some gray area being created in the visual representations from the differences between the following scenarios.  They could be meaningless, but they could also be affecting the visual results.  Based on my assumptions above of the original recording environment:
-1.047M tape - analog screen, analog recording (external to the screen)
-1.05M tape - analog generation, analog recording
Compared against:
-My direct feed - analog generation at gameboard, digital capture
-Jeremy's camera phone - analog screen, digital video recording

There are still things that don't jibe with me from a technical aspect of both sides of the conversation:
1) As implied but not outright stated in my earlier post: a MAME setup of the nature required to achieve the alleged result would be a technological challenge even now, but more so at the time.  If it were any game other than a Nintendo game with inverted video, it would be much more easily achieved.  Because of the inverted video, it's an added layer of complexity.  For at least one of the tapes (live performance in front of others), we would be talking about a modified cabinet with the ability to playback an .inp file in a format that jibes with a monitor that requires inverted video, and to send video to another monitor/device for recording that may or may not require inverted video.
2) If it was truly arcade hardware, was the tape footage rotated?  For the 1.047M footage, again, this appears to be a camcorder or some external recording device taking video of a screen.  That screen could easily have been physically rotated and oriented for the camcorder/etc. recording.  The apparent VCR footage, however, isn't so easily explained away, unless it appears in its native non-rotated orientation on the actual tape, or it was post-processed.

All this is NOT to say that the original analysis is wrong.  I do think, however, that the means of comparison that are ultimately leading to the statement "it was MAME!" are not painting a picture that is cut and dry.  At the same time, I'm only looking at the few samples from the original footage that are provided here.  If EVERY new level has been looked at in both pieces of footage, and it can be said without a shadow of a doubt that there is absolutely no partially-present "lead out" screens from stacked monkeys and no partially-present lead in screens of the start of the level, effectively there is absolutely no "sliding door" effect in the footage, well that is significantly more conclusive.  And maybe this statement was implied in the OP, if Jeremy or SM can make that statement based on what they've reviewed, again, that is significantly more conclusive.

I know the original tapes are supposed to be in transit to authoritative bodies for further review, and hope my suggestions help in some way to further the conversation and provide clearer answers for some of us that may now be looking at the situation through a wider lens.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: homerwannabee on February 08, 2018, 11:00:50 am
I don't understand why people are ignoring this.  The transition drawing of boards looks exactly like a certain version of MAME.  All the tapes do.  The odds of an Arcade game being drawn exactly like a certain version of MAME are astronomical.
I feel like the alternative evidence is simply a red herring.  Meant to divert attention from the plain as day fact that the transition boards are drawn exactly like MAME.  All of them are the King of Kong tape, the IVGHOF tape, the Dwayne tapes.  They ALL have transition board drawings that look exactly like MAME.  This is the problem, and this is the problem that really hasn't been addressed.
Until a rational reason can explain this I will remain on the side that believes that Billy Mitchell's games were MAME games.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Mario500 on February 08, 2018, 12:48:04 pm
News article:

"Billy Mitchell Breaks Silence About Donkey Kong High Score Controversy"

https://kotaku.com/billy-mitchell-breaks-silence-about-donkey-kong-high-sc-1822815818
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: dnickolas on February 08, 2018, 01:12:36 pm
I saw the video, and was a bit disappointed.

It seems that Billy is using the Unfrozen Cave Man Lawyer defense. This is only meant to be funny to me and not derogatory.

“The only maim I know is what happened to my cousin from a wooly mammoth stomp. And who cares if raster is asian? Good for him. But what I do know is that I’m Billy Mitchell, and people keep wanting to put me in their magic picture boxes because I’m Billy Mitchell and have I told you the story about that time I ate all the dots and they flew me in a metal bird to a place they said was Japan to let me know that they recognize me as Billy Mitchell? And did I mention that it’s all on Dwayne? Hey Richie, remind them that I’m Billy Mitchell and how I’m the greatest.”
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Gavv on February 08, 2018, 03:51:09 pm
Guys,

I would like to submit some additional evidence.  As the conversations continue, things just aren't adding up for me, from the technical perspective.  I'm not able to reconcile either scenario, given what is currently known - neither that the performances WERE absolutely mame, nor that they WERE absolutely true arcade hardware.

I think first and foremost, it is of extreme importance, because so much emphasis is being placed on the visual evidence of the gameplay, that the likely environment of capturing of the footage be replicated as best as possible.

Considering technology that was likely used to capture the video, without going into the hardware that was actually producing the gameplay, it appears that:
-The 1.047M video is a camera pointed at a screen
-The 1.05M video is a vcr recording of a direct feed

If there is actual knowledge contradicting these assumptions, and of how the footage was recorded, in part or in whole, please provide that information.

In both assumed scenarios, you would effectively have a 60 hz screen being captured by a 29.97fps recording device.  Even if the assumptions aren't exactly right, this is still the most likely scenario for the time period.  60hz screen being recorded with a 29.97fps recording device.

So, I think it's important we replicate that environment for analysis.  Comparing a 60fps capture of a 60hz signal is not apples to apples - twice as many frames being captured in this scenario.

Below is a video that as closely replicates the original recording scenario as I am able to without going to the thrift store for a VCR and some crappy old VHS movie to record over.  My cab is generating a 60hz signal, my video processor is at 480p/60, my capture card is at 29.97fps, OBS is at 29.97fps.  I also have my webcam at 29.97, capturing the screen (60hz).

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/226969998 (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/226969998)
I will let anyone who wants, to draw their own conclusions.  In some instances, like on L=1 rivets, there is no "lead-in" drawing of the screen.  One frame is the stacked monkeys, the next screen is the entire rivet level populated on the screen.

I will happily provide the non-streamed recording file to anyone that wants it for further analysis and comparison.

Now this alone still doesn't answer all questions, but I think it objectively aids the argument that the recordings were not provably MAME beyond the shadow of a doubt.  And I emphasize OBJECTIVELY.  I simply want answers, like I think everyone here, and I believe is the intent of the original analysis/OP.

There is also potentially some gray area being created in the visual representations from the differences between the following scenarios.  They could be meaningless, but they could also be affecting the visual results.  Based on my assumptions above of the original recording environment:
-1.047M tape - analog screen, analog recording (external to the screen)
-1.05M tape - analog generation, analog recording
Compared against:
-My direct feed - analog generation at gameboard, digital capture
-Jeremy's camera phone - analog screen, digital video recording
 


Actually your set up isn't correctly testing the real conditions.  You are not emulating the process of NTSC video , your capture is immediately turning the 60 Hz input into progressive 29.97 Hz , and that same progressive 29.97 being streamed even at whatever fps that OBS is running (whether OBS is at 29.97 or not).  You're taking out *much more* information from the signal before it gets to your stream than even humble VHS does.  All be it with less resolution (VHS NTSC effective resolution is about 352x240 by 60 interlaced fields per second).  The VHS is not capturing 29.97/30 frames, it's capturing 59.94/60 fields per second.  If you're capturing in order to test this you need to do an initial digital capture at 60 frames per second if you're recording either a 60fps progressive monitor or a 60field-per-second NTSC video in order to compare apples to apples. 


gavv
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Sock Master on February 08, 2018, 04:20:46 pm
Below is a video that as closely replicates the original recording scenario as I am able to without going to the thrift store for a VCR and some crappy old VHS movie to record over.  My cab is generating a 60hz signal, my video processor is at 480p/60, my capture card is at 29.97fps, OBS is at 29.97fps.  I also have my webcam at 29.97, capturing the screen (60hz).

Hi Chris,

What Gavv wrote is correct, but even if a recording was not done under ideal conditions it's still possible to determine whether MAME or a DK PCB was used.   In your 30fps recording 50% of the frames are absent so each transition will not show every frame that the DK PCB generated, but if you look at all the transitions in the video you can still see the key frames that show whether it's MAME or DK PCB.    Here's a screenshot of a frame from the first barrel board transition and it matches DK hardware.   Even the webcam using an exposure longer than 1/60th of a second so it's composed of multiple and/or partial DK frames blended together but this can be taken into account and the results are consistent with DK hardware.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: YesAffinity on February 08, 2018, 06:25:14 pm
So, how would you 2 propose replicating it in a real-world scenario?  Thought I was hitting the mark, but apparently missed it.  And if hitting the mark, and it adds to the evidence corroborating that it was MAME, well that's okay.  I'm just concerned that using 60fps capture, both my direct feed and Jeremy's camera, isn't an accurate comparison.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Sock Master on February 08, 2018, 09:35:32 pm
So, how would you 2 propose replicating it in a real-world scenario?  Thought I was hitting the mark, but apparently missed it.  And if hitting the mark, and it adds to the evidence corroborating that it was MAME, well that's okay.  I'm just concerned that using 60fps capture, both my direct feed and Jeremy's camera, isn't an accurate comparison.

If: The 1.047M video is a camera pointed at a screen

Then the best way to duplicate this scenario would be to point a video camera at a screen.   One recording from actual DK screen and one from a PC screen running MAME fullscreen with -norotate and then compare the two results.   If I recall, the VCR showed a "Volume ---" or some overlay showing that the bottom of the screen was to the left.
Then bottom of the camera would be at the left side of the DK playfield.   A camcorder and VCR would record 60 fields per second, so no frames would be lost but the uploaded videos on youtube were downgraded to 30fps so half the frames were lost.  Reencoding the 60 fps videos at 30 fps should simulate that degradation.

If: The 1.05M video is a vcr recording of a direct feed

Then this is compositionally identical to your 60fps recordings (except VCR has lower detail).  The later conversion and upload to youtube downgraded it to 30fps so half of those frames were lost.  Reencoding the 60fps video into 30fps would simulate the youtube degradation.    Getting a MAME equivalent for comparison would require a video card with a composite video output and recording to a VCR.   VCRs record at 60 fields per second so the closest duplication without actually owning a VCR would simply be an .avi recording directly from MAME (60fps) then reencoding that video into 30fps to simulate capturing video digitally and sending to youtube.

I think that would replicate equivalents for A:B comparisons
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: YesAffinity on February 09, 2018, 06:01:37 am
What version of mame should be used for the mame recreations?
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Sock Master on February 09, 2018, 06:31:12 am
What version of mame should be used for the mame recreations?

Some version of mame that would have been available at that time.  When was the 1.05M recording from? 2007?  Might be any version v0.122 or earlier.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: DonkeyKongGenius on February 09, 2018, 07:09:38 am
I am not surprised that Billy danced around the question in his interview. He claims that the video footage is MAME but is not the original tape?????? So he says stuff that does not make sense and then yet still offers no substantive defense.  <Billy> pls
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: YesAffinity on February 09, 2018, 02:57:19 pm
What version of mame should be used for the mame recreations?

Some version of mame that would have been available at that time.  When was the 1.05M recording from? 2007?  Might be any version v0.122 or earlier.
Ok, I found a VCR.  Thank you to my wife for never throwing anything away.  :)

Now, I have (4) external recording devices available to me.  Which, if any, would offer the most faithful reproduction of a camcorder?  The note about the Powershot outputting in NTSC or PAL refers to the A/V output on the camera, not the recording type.

(https://klovimg.com/images/2018/02/09/finepix-j38.md.png) (https://klovimg.com/image/32Mqy)

In addition to those, I have my Samsung S8, which offers: 3840x2160, 2560x1440, 1080p/60, 1080p/30, 1440x1440, 1280x720, 640x480.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Sock Master on February 09, 2018, 04:34:03 pm
Ok, I found a VCR.  Thank you to my wife for never throwing anything away.  :)

Now, I have (4) external recording devices available to me.  Which, if any, would offer the most faithful reproduction of a camcorder?  The note about the Powershot outputting in NTSC or PAL refers to the A/V output on the camera, not the recording type.

In addition to those, I have my Samsung S8, which offers: 3840x2160, 2560x1440, 1080p/60, 1080p/30, 1440x1440, 1280x720, 640x480.

The Powershot has an A/V out?  I figure live A/V out straight to a VCR would be the closest thing to a camcorder recording (no additional digital encoding, 60 fields per second, 640x480 standard NTSC output.)
If the other cameras allow live A/V out, any of those would do also.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: YesAffinity on February 09, 2018, 06:47:21 pm
Ok, I found a VCR.  Thank you to my wife for never throwing anything away.  :)

Now, I have (4) external recording devices available to me.  Which, if any, would offer the most faithful reproduction of a camcorder?  The note about the Powershot outputting in NTSC or PAL refers to the A/V output on the camera, not the recording type.

In addition to those, I have my Samsung S8, which offers: 3840x2160, 2560x1440, 1080p/60, 1080p/30, 1440x1440, 1280x720, 640x480.

The Powershot has an A/V out?  I figure live A/V out straight to a VCR would be the closest thing to a camcorder recording (no additional digital encoding, 60 fields per second, 640x480 standard NTSC output.)
If the other cameras allow live A/V out, any of those would do also.

I don't think it's live out, and I don't have the apparently unique a/v out cable.  I think it's only for recording from playback.  They all have a/v out, but same scenario for all.  My samsung can stream out live video at 60 fps.  Maybe that's the closest thing to a camcorder?

Anyway, I got vcr direct feed capture from the jrok composite out.  The image quality is about as terrible as Billy's tapes.  I have an option to capture the vcr playback as .mp4 or .avi, but there is apparently no option on my capture card to NOT interleave the video when capturing.  Thougths?
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: YesAffinity on February 09, 2018, 07:21:41 pm
^Scratch that.  This VCR/DVD combo only outputs component for DVD playback, not for VHS playback.  My avermedia C127 does not accept composite output.  So, I have to put it through my VP30 video processor which will process it and spit it out via HDMI so I can capture at 60fps on the C127.

480p/60 good for processing/capturing?  There is also interlacing on the VP30 and the C127, no option for 'none' on either.  Any concerns there?  I did a test run and it looks very clean, every bit as crappy as the original VHS playing back via composite, direct to a LCD monitor.

Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Sock Master on February 09, 2018, 10:32:24 pm
^Scratch that.  This VCR/DVD combo only outputs component for DVD playback, not for VHS playback.  My avermedia C127 does not accept composite output.  So, I have to put it through my VP30 video processor which will process it and spit it out via HDMI so I can capture at 60fps on the C127.

480p/60 good for processing/capturing?  There is also interlacing on the VP30 and the C127, no option for 'none' on either.  Any concerns there?  I did a test run and it looks very clean, every bit as crappy as the original VHS playing back via composite, direct to a LCD monitor.

I'm a bit less certain as to which way would most closely simulate the conditions that the original videotapes were captured then youtubed.  They might have been captured at 60fps and youtube then downgraded it to 30fps (youtube did not support 60fps video in the past) or it might have been captured from videotape at 30fps to begin with.   But the youtube videos don't show signs of combing so maybe it was captured at 60fps.

I'd guess output at 60fps, capture at 60fps, then re-encode that video again to 30fps.  If the final video shows combing (moving objects like barrels looking a little hairy/double exposed) then the interlacing confused the 30fps conversion - maybe try going to 30fps higher up in the chain.

Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: YesAffinity on February 10, 2018, 12:45:12 am
All right, here's the first stab:

Arcade, with composite out via JROK encoder
VCR composite in, recording to VHS tape
VHS playback via Iscan VP30, 640x480 @ 60hz locked
Iscan VP30 HDMI out to Avermedia C127 capture card
Avermedia C127 capture to hard drive, 640x480 @ 60fps

I first looked at the 60 fps video which should be uploaded to youtube by 1 a.m., and can be found here: https://youtu.be/qk-RW9K_vF0 (https://youtu.be/qk-RW9K_vF0).  There was clear presence of the sliding door effect that is expected from true arcade hardware, but is shown to not be present in Billy's videos.

I then re-encoded to 30fps, using MPEG-2 encoding.  This would likely have been the compression method employed when capturing from the assumed VHS tapes, circa 2007.  I used Handbrake to transcode the video, and turned off all superfluous options, such as deinterlacing.  Below are frame-by-frame progressions at the lead ins to different boards.  Although there are obviously less frames, and the sliding door effect is less obvious, it can still be seen as explained by Jeremy and Mr. Sock Master.  The sideways view is exactly how it is recorded from the cabinet.  I also rotated them for easier viewing.

(https://klovimg.com/images/2018/02/10/2-complete-progression.md.png) (https://klovimg.com/image/327MQ)

(https://klovimg.com/images/2018/02/10/2-complete-progression2.md.png) (https://klovimg.com/image/32XNF)



(https://klovimg.com/images/2018/02/10/3-complete-progression.md.png) (https://klovimg.com/image/32gaE)

(https://klovimg.com/images/2018/02/10/3-complete-progression2.md.png) (https://klovimg.com/image/32ESr)



(https://klovimg.com/images/2018/02/10/1complete-progression.md.png) (https://klovimg.com/image/3216l)

(https://klovimg.com/images/2018/02/10/1complete-progression2.md.png) (https://klovimg.com/image/32BFi)

Conclusion of this effort: as best as I'm able to replicate what captured video from an arcade cabinet at the time and with some assumptions as to how the video was being recorded, the results support the assertions.

Capturing directly from MAME hardware is proving significantly more challenging, at least for what I have immediately available to me.  My JPAC/ArcadeVGA MAME rig will not output video simultaneously to the arcade monitor and the composite output.  It's one or the other.  I am going to try outputting to composite from the rig, recording that to VHS, and playing with video being sent to a LCD screen piggy-backed off the VCR.  More on that tomorrow.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: bh on February 10, 2018, 08:11:04 am
Crossposting from TG for the sake of completness:

Quote
As I mentioned earlier, the RNG is unusually kind to Billy in the 1,050,200 point WR game. On barrel stages he had 105 blue barrel smashes and 38 flame smashes for a total of 78,500 points, a >99th percentile performance for the RNG.

At my request Jeremy Young provided me with transcripts of Wes Copeland's 1,170,500 and Robbie Lakeman's 1,172,100. Over the entire game, Wes had 99 blue smashes and 85 flame smashes for 91,000 points. This puts him in the 62nd percentile. Robbie made a paltry 95 blue and 72 flame smashes for a measly 80,500 points. This is a 21st percentile RNG result. Tough luck, Lakeman!

This is interesting because it shows that top players world record with bad RNG performance. Billy knocked down the record with an amazing RNG. This is exactly the sort of thing you'd expect to see with a segmented run. Taken with the video evidence of MAME usage it's downright incriminating.

I'm slowly working on the 1,047,200 game, but I expect to see another super lucky RNG. Does a full tape of the 1,062,800 exist? I'm not picking over video artifacts, so really any copy would do.

My next step is to get more DK stats. Then I'll do a regression on either smash points vs. total score or barrel smashes vs. total score. Next I'll determine if any scores are outliers in both number of barrels AND points per barrel.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Scoundrl on February 10, 2018, 09:31:50 am
I might have some footage of Billy playing at the KO3. It would be interesting to see  these numbers vs known good numbers.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: YesAffinity on February 10, 2018, 09:45:07 am
Taking a different approach with the same VHS recording as the pictures and video above, I dug out an old USB composite/s-video capture device.  Using the same VHS recording of a direct feed composite output from DK arcade hardware, I then played back directly from the VCR to the USB capture device.  The video was encoded with MPEG-2, and captured at 29.97 fps.  In my mind, this is probably the closest to how a VHS recorded arcade feed would have been captured to a PC and then uploaded.  This does the transcoding direct from the VCR to the PC.

Same result.  You can see the screens transitioning via the "sliding door" effect.

(https://klovimg.com/images/2018/02/10/frame1.md.png) (https://klovimg.com/image/32V62)

Fully video here, if anyone wants it:

Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Sock Master on February 10, 2018, 10:18:28 am
Taking a different approach with the same VHS recording as the pictures and video above, I dug out an old USB composite/s-video capture device.  Using the same VHS recording of a direct feed composite output from DK arcade hardware, I then played back directly from the VCR to the USB capture device.  The video was encoded with MPEG-2, and captured at 29.97 fps.  In my mind, this is probably the closest to how a VHS recorded arcade feed would have been captured to a PC and then uploaded.  This does the transcoding direct from the VCR to the PC.

Same result.  You can see the screens transitioning via the "sliding door" effect.

(https://klovimg.com/images/2018/02/10/frame1.md.png) (https://klovimg.com/image/32V62)

Fully video here, if anyone wants it:


Wow. just wow. I can't express how ridiculously awesome it is that you went through all this trouble to create a duplication of the process and steps that it would have taken to get DK direct feed, onto actual VHS tape, then onto Youtube.

Just watching it with all the VHS wobbles and blurriness... it's just awesome to see.  I can't wait to see the MAME equivalent
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Scoundrl on February 10, 2018, 10:19:34 am
The videos I have do not show any of Billy's game play. It was a nice trip down memory lane watching all the camaraderie in Denver though.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: LMDAVE on February 10, 2018, 10:55:47 am
I played next to Billy at either Kong off 2 or 3, cant remember, but I do remember him getting a 82K level three on his first man. Now I know what you're saying, that's just level 3. But, to get 80K+ on level 3 you have to have the DK skills to pull it off. Getting large scores in DK is applying your use of skills and control of mario, but have to know the tricks and "how to" maximize your score, then you have to have the concentration to pull it off through 21 levels.

Do I think Billy has the skills to get a 1.1M eventually? Yeah, if he applied himself to trying to get back into it, probably if he follows the blue print that is out there now. I don't think he had that blue print before. That's what makes the probability and high blue hit values on the 1.062M (1.125 pace game) so hard to believe. I think Steve Wiebe would be able to cross 1.1M also if he spent some time on DKF or watched archived games and not just playing his same pattern game.

So, even if Billy did get back into DK to show a high score, still doesn't mean he didn't pass off MAME tapes in the past as arcade.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: YesAffinity on February 10, 2018, 03:03:12 pm
Ok, well here we go.  I've taken a variety of different approaches with MAME, again attempting to recreate likely scenarios of what we see in the Billy M videos in question.  MAME .122 was used, with no rotation.  All joined images are frame-by-frame steppings, using VLC.

First, MAME PC is outputting composite direct feed to a VCR for recording.  I recorded the LCD screen connected to the VCR with my phone camera, at 640x480/30fp, while the VCR was recording.  MediaInfo identifies this video as being NTSC.

The pictures represent how the image appeared while standing in front of the screen.  This gives the appearance that the image is being drawn from the left side of the screen to the right side of the screen (or from the top of the play field to the bottom of the play field).  As we know, this is not consistent with how arcade hardware produces the image.

The video from which these frame grabs were taken:
 (https://klovimg.com/images/2018/02/10/1-complete-progression-2-mame-phone.md.png) (https://klovimg.com/image/34Ix9)


(https://klovimg.com/images/2018/02/10/1complete-progression-mame-phone-2.md.png) (https://klovimg.com/image/34MVp)
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: YesAffinity on February 10, 2018, 03:08:11 pm
Phone camera live streams MAME CRT at 640x480/30.  The stream is captured by OBS at 60fps, to avoid OBS bottlenecking or having influence on the video.  The captured stream video is then transcoded w/ VLC at the video resolution, framerate and bitrate of the Billy M 1.05 video currently on youtube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0ZKEGZpggI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0ZKEGZpggI)).  This was an attempt to:

1)   Somewhat recreate a camcorder recording
2)   Transcode it to the same format of the above linked video

Full video that screen grabs were taken from: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ywu8y89CpeI&t=162s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ywu8y89CpeI&t=162s)

Note the first grouping of frames is NOT transcoded, and is 60fps capture.  Interestingly, two of the frames absolutely display for a period of two frames (do not change from one frame to the next).

(https://klovimg.com/images/2018/02/10/4-complete-progression_phone-recording-crt.md.png) (https://klovimg.com/image/344Im)


(https://klovimg.com/images/2018/02/10/3-complete-progression_phone-recording-crt-transcoded.md.png) (https://klovimg.com/image/342w2)


(https://klovimg.com/images/2018/02/10/2-complete-progression_phone-recording-crt-transcoded.md.png) (https://klovimg.com/image/34vHV)


(https://klovimg.com/images/2018/02/10/1-complete-progression_phone-recording-crt-mame-transcoded.md.png) (https://klovimg.com/image/34GgY)
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: YesAffinity on February 10, 2018, 03:10:26 pm
The screens you see being externally recorded in the previous 2 posts were also direct fed via composite output from my MAME PC.  The direct feed was recorded to a VHS tape.  The VCR was then played back to a Happauge PVR USB capture device.  The stream was captured as MPEG-2, 720x480 @ 29.97 fps.

Full video that frame grabs were taken from:
(https://klovimg.com/images/2018/02/10/4-complete-progression_vcr-mame-to-pc.md.png) (https://klovimg.com/image/34cQg)


(https://klovimg.com/images/2018/02/10/3-complete-progression_vcr-mame-to-pc.md.png) (https://klovimg.com/image/34Olc)


(https://klovimg.com/images/2018/02/10/1-complete-progression_vcr-mame-to-pc.md.png) (https://klovimg.com/image/34PhZ)


(https://klovimg.com/images/2018/02/10/2-complete-progression_vcr-mame-to-pc.md.png) (https://klovimg.com/image/34H9X)
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: YesAffinity on February 10, 2018, 03:12:48 pm
Lastly, I re-visited what my webcam had recorded from arcade play.  This is another effort to replicate a camcorder recording.  My webcam captured the DK arcade screen at 720x480/30fps.  This file was then transcoded to the resolution, bitrate, framerate and compression type of this video of Billy’s 1.05M run (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0ZKEGZpggI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0ZKEGZpggI)).  Although there are obviously many frames being outright omitted through this process, we still clearly see the sliding door effect.

original, straight from web cam to PC footage: https://youtu.be/5HftSTw9wC8 (https://youtu.be/5HftSTw9wC8)

video file re-encoded: https://youtu.be/PUb7H0DMv5o (https://youtu.be/PUb7H0DMv5o)

(https://klovimg.com/images/2018/02/10/1-complete-progression_webcam-transcoded.md.png) (https://klovimg.com/image/34tjX)


(https://klovimg.com/images/2018/02/10/2-complete-progression_webcam-transcoded.md.png) (https://klovimg.com/image/34ToK)


(https://klovimg.com/images/2018/02/10/3-complete-progression_webcam-transcoded.md.png) (https://klovimg.com/image/34FCZ)


(https://klovimg.com/images/2018/02/10/4-complete-progression_webcam-transcoded.md.png) (https://klovimg.com/image/341Zc)
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: YesAffinity on February 10, 2018, 03:20:12 pm
That's about the best I can do with the equipment immediately available to me.  I'm still puzzling over the scenario that would marry MAME play, or even more challenging, MAME playback, with a live performance, direct feed, and all the other variables being contemplated as part of the larger picture.  For MAME play alone, Mike Haaland confirmed that both his JAM2NIN adapter and Nintendo cab harness-to-edge connector have been available since circa 2001.  This is one potential avenue for a 60-in-1 or other MAME device to have come into play in the equation.

Unfortunately, despite the video evidence, which represents the bullet in a murder case, we still need to find the gun.

At any rate, I hope my efforts prove useful in providing additional data points against which to analyze and verify.

I will upload the videos from which all of the above screen grabs came from, and updating the posts above with the links.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Mary McManus on February 10, 2018, 09:57:43 pm
I'm willing to bet the picture quality generated from MAME via the composite out from the video card  on the computer when shown on a regular TV was not as crisp and was fuzzy around the edges. It looks "O.K." but  quite noticeable when looking at the same pic from the  original hardware on an RGB monitor.  I know I have done this already.
 

Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: YesAffinity on February 11, 2018, 07:09:34 am
At Jace Hall's request, I also recorded video of MAME/CRT at 1080p60 with my phone camera.  No post processing to the video file unless youtube upload tweaks it.

I took the liberty of rotating the images included in the below collages.  MAME .inp recording was done with MAME rotation option set to '0'.  In reality, the score is on the viewers left and bottom girder on the viewers right, when standing in front of the monitor, like such:

(https://klovimg.com/images/2018/02/11/20180211_070648.md.jpg) (https://klovimg.com/image/34sn0)

Full video:
(https://klovimg.com/images/2018/02/11/2-complete-progression_MAME-CRT-60fps_2.md.png) (https://klovimg.com/image/34poM)


(https://klovimg.com/images/2018/02/11/1-complete-progression_MAME-CRT-60fps_2.md.png) (https://klovimg.com/image/34n0A)


(https://klovimg.com/images/2018/02/11/3-complete-progression_MAME-CRT-60fps_2.md.png) (https://klovimg.com/image/34hzk)
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: YesAffinity on February 11, 2018, 12:17:11 pm
For posterity, here are some more uploads, of "less processed" recordings or captures:

DK MAME composite direct feed to VCR - 60fps capture from VHS playback: https://youtu.be/Jrkaw9qhiTI (https://youtu.be/Jrkaw9qhiTI)

DK Arcade Sanyo 20EZ recorded with phone camera at 1080p60: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18lx9_cHsK4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18lx9_cHsK4)

DK MAME CRT recorded with phone at 720p30, no post processing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0upbIdGW3XA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0upbIdGW3XA)
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: maximumsteve on February 11, 2018, 03:46:02 pm
This is from my friend and colleague Robert Childs regarding the dispute. There is a lot here, so please be patient with yourself, and when you have time read with a open mind....

Billy Mitchell Donkey Kong Dispute my tech analysis

NORMALLY I do not get involved in disputes and arguments especially one as silly as this, however, as a witness to the event and technician who performed the game/equipment set-up for Billy Mitchell, I can attest Billy did not submit his record scores playing on MAME. It all boils down to this. When you hook up a 1980s era Donkey Kong board to a 2000s era RGB to NTSC converter board and then run it to a 1970s technology VCR for recording God only knows what it will do to the signal. Billy is my childhood friend, however, I am not writing this post because Billy is my friend but rather it is the truth.
The following is a LAYMAN’S explanation of the hook-up used for each of Billy Mitchell’s scores
Also below is posted a TECHNICAL explanation for those who are so inclined.
In the comparison between Weibe’s video and Billy’s in the side by side, the differences are apparent. The purpose here is to explain the difference. Those unfamiliar with the explained method of hook-up to record have raised an unnecessary firestorm of innuendo and accusation. Said firestorm could easily have been avoided if Billy Mitchell had first been asked instead of first being accused. This explanation and the more detailed TECHNICAL explanation below will answer the claims of those unfamiliar in this method of recording.
In Wiebe’s video, he used a camera on a tripod angled slightly behind him. This showed on the recording the screen as Weibe actually saw it. This is the common way of filming a score submission.
In Billy’s video recording, he did not use MAME. Billy used a RGB to NTSC Video Converter Board to record his footage. I still have the original receipt for this board which I can post if asked . He paid $200 for the board.
The way the video converter board works is that it TRANSLATES the entirety of the RGB type signal, which is what originates from the DK video game board, into NTSC when that signal is run through the converter. The NTSC signal is what VCRs and TVs of all types used back in the day. The entire reason Billy used a Video Converter was for direct feed after MY expensive camera was once destroyed when it was knocked over. Cameras were nearly $1000 in those days versus a safely out-of-the-way $200 video converter board.
It is important to understand that the visual Billy saw on his DK monitor is EXACTLY the same type RGB display that Weibe saw on his monitor (and ultimately was recorded by his camera).The converted video offers NO advantage to the player as the player never sees it during gameplay. The converter signal is sent solely to the VCR.
The Converter hook-up works like this:
The video converter is connected directly to the video output of the DK inverter board. The inverter receives the video from the DK board itself NOT the Sanyo monitor that the player sees from his view. The converter board does its job translating RGB to NTSC which goes to the VCR and is recorded as the finalized media. There is NO possibility of an advantage to the player using this method of recording.
The TRANSLATION of RGB to NTSC changes the video’s appearance and characteristics of the signal (as in a CGA monitor) to a “more MAME looking signal output”. However, if you want to make the argument this recorded video signal APPEARS more MAME looking, maybe it does. Looking MAME is not MAME, nor a violation that even approaches “cheating”.
Why would any player, nearly eight years ago, desire to put a MAME computer in the back of a Nintendo cabinet and connect the output to a Sanyo monitor? No one playing MAME had approached the 1 million mark at that time. The accusation of using MAME doesn’t make sense. It would be too much work. Anyone who could reach 1 Million on MAME could undoubtedly reach MORE on an arcade machine. The alleged deception does not make sense. The risk would not present enough gain over the possibility of being discovered.

Even if …
multiple eyewitness testimony is discounted (which it should not be),
Even if …
TG would dismiss the video footage that was in their possession which is TG’s responsibility to produce since they initially certified the record (if they dismiss THIS record because they can’t “find the tape” then how many thousands of other records/scores MUST they AUTOMATICALLY dismiss upon any challenge?). TG has a responsibility to honor tapes that were once in their custody, regardless of ownership changes, especially if they cannot “find” a tape that was in their charge to protect in the “archives”,
Even if …
the prescribed method of verification at that time was put aside (which would be “changing the rules after the acceptance of proof”),
THE FACT REMAINS that the hook-up described here produces these results and that alone is enough to prove, along with Billy’s ability in other high scores, that cheating was not involved.
$5000 CHALLENGE
If ANYONE can disprove what I have stated within this explanation, not in opinion, but in ACTUAL proof I will donate $5000 in their name to the charity of their choice . We also will test/prove any discrepancies in opinion in my shop on video. A contract will be provided if this option is sought.
Regards
Robert Childs

TECHNICAL EXPLANATION

A TG member has made an accusation that Billy Mitchell used MAME instead of a legitimate and original Donkey Kong board. He assumed that MAME was used based on comparisons of three sources that were not equal. That TG member used Gleed’s direct video feed recorded at 60fps, and used his own camera phone that recorded at 60fps, and compared it to Billy’s direct feed video tape (30fps, non TBC (please read for more information http://www.digitalfaq.com/ (http://www.digitalfaq.com/)…/video-r…/2251-tbc-time-base.html)), which was encoded to digital format, to make an assumption that cheating was involved since Billy’s video does not behave as his standard. That TG member wrongly concludes that due to the rotation of the image and its alignment to the left instead of the right, that MAME must have been used. However his argument is weak for he either leaves out nor considers that the Sanyo monitor used is known to have capacitor problems in the vertical circuit (namely c407 (10uF, 160v) which often causes a fold to the bottom half of a Horizontally mounted monitor.
Nor does he consider other plausible explanations such that the majority of these games from that era were notorious for image burn on the face of picture tubes and that most likely the picture tube was changed and the donor tube’s yoke was either installed 180 degrees the wrong way and the header connector was flipped to correct the orientation, or the yoke may not have been wedged in correctly and the picture was off center, or that the yoke was that of the donor monitor and was close enough to work with that monitor chassis. (Please read http://www.junknet.net/tube-swap-diy-part1 (http://www.junknet.net/tube-swap-diy-part1))
That TG member made a comparison to his own 60 fps video shot with a high definition Samsung S8 to Gleed’s direct feed captured at 60 fps (which is assumed to be a direct digital recording in mp4), to a direct DK board to video recorded on a 30 fps VHS tape which was then encoded into an unknown video format. That TG member makes no mention of the technology that is used to convert digital TTL RGB to analog low level composite, nor does he mention the inferior quality and losses of a VHS recording and how that might be problematic to his comparison.
The main issue here to consider is that TG member compares video recorded in high definition to a video that was converted from TTL RGB to low level composite video. Let’s explain the evidence and why it’s important to keep Billy’s direct feed and type of recorded media in mind.
Billy’s direct feed was born out of a necessity to avoid people tripping over a camera on a tripod pointed at the screen and I was also tired of hearing “Rob watch the camera”. In the last few years cameras have become cheaper and more lightweight, but the situation a dozen or so years ago was not the same. Direct feed was a viable option. It's a very simple process to wire and does not take much skill. To wire a DK machine to an external display you would use an RGB to composite signal converter.

In the very early 2000s, Two Bit Score (a company that sold coin op video accessories), sold such a device. It cost $199.00. This was a simple device where you took standard positive digital TTL RGB video signal and a composite negative sync from a standard 15.7 kHz video game and converted them to a composite low level analog video signal that a TV or VCR could display. The quality of this reproduction while acceptable, never truly reproduced the original (please read this link to see note of this known issue. http://www.jrok.com/hardware/RGB-FAQ.html (http://www.jrok.com/hardware/RGB-FAQ.html)).

To make a connection to this RGB adapter from a Classic Nintendo coin op you needed to invert the TTL output from the negative signal to a positive signal. Please pay attention to the TTL acronym. TTL means Transistor-Transistor Logic (current driven switching), which was the architecture of integrated circuits of the time (1980’s). It was inefficient, slow, and bulky. The negative signal that was generated from the board was fed into a buffer transistor and then to a driver transistor that drove the individual R, G, or B guns on the neck board of the monitor (Please search out and see schematic online as I don’t have time to post I have a family to get back to today).

In order to successfully output the correct colors to an RGB to composite signal converter, you need to invert the colors. Billy’s machine utilized Nintendo’s built in video inverter board, mounted stock above the horizontal flyback transformer, to do that. Normally this board is wired in “pass though” by default. With the movement of the output wire to this board to the inverted pin header, the games image displayed white as black and vice versa. This board is a very simple device composed of a couple potentiometers, a few resistors, a couple capacitors, some diodes for the power supply, and some 2N3904 NPN transistors. In short, the video was inverted from one state to its opposite state with two transistors: one for buffering, the other for inversion. Just by simply using this board you introduced some delay due to the slow switching nature of transistors. Now I bring this information to you for this reason: it is possible to invert the video signal by either rewriting the color PROMs on a stock board or by utilizing a CMOS 74HC IC with a few resistors and get far superior results. For those who do not know CMOS (Complementary Metal Oxide Semiconductor) is much faster than TTL. Since it is possible to invert the original DKs by other means, which scheme did Gleed use for his direct feed is not stated nor is it considered.
The adapter, used to make the video (from Two Bit Score), had the IC’s number scratched off, so I can’t give you exact information on its construction. This company was notorious for removing identifying information from their products to prevent people from copying them. However a quick google search will produce a popular IC, AD775, which is probably what their board was built on (Please see data sheet for more information-http://www.analog.com/…/technical-doc…/data-sheets/AD725.pdf).

Here is the important part. The simple explanation is that by inserting an RGB signal into this device you introduce loss, delay and latency. This is a by-product of the AD775 process. If you take a look at the IC’s block diagram you’ll see the many processes that are utilized in order to convert the signal to a low level video signal.

The simplest explanations of the AD725 conversion process are as follows. If you simply follow each signal line in the function block diagram(get online) you will see that each RGB color signal is fixed to an equal level, inserted into an RGB (lumence matrix) to YUV (basically YCbCr colors), encoding matrix. From there the Y signal is put in to a 3 pole low pass pre-filter and a composite sync is added, the U and V signals are put to a 4 pole low pass filter to remove the harmonics of the switching modulation and clamped down to a fixed level and then color burst vectors are added to the U and V signals. The U and V signals are used to modulate a pair of quadrature clocks (sine and cosine) at one-fourth the reference frequency input 3.579 545 MHz for NTSC. In order to be time-aligned with the filtered chrominance signal path, the luma signal must be delayed before it is output. The AD725 uses a sampled delay line to achieve this delay.
A layman explanation of the inner works of the AD725 IC would simply be: Signals are inserted, balanced, inverted, and filtered (where noise is removed). In the case of the Y signal it is sampled and delayed in order to synchronize colors then again filter. In the case of U and V signal, the combined signals are summed and then again filtered. The entire Y U and V signal is then summed to produce the single composite output.

SUMMARY
To surmise what the converter board does in its simplest form: You put in a signal, you balance the signals, you invert them, you filter them, you delay, you filter them again, you add timing signals, and you sum them again. This entire process distorts and adulterates the original input thus no comparison can be made by recording the original RGB signal at 60fps and then comparing that to that same signal that had been converted with the AD725 and then recorded to a VCR (which has 3 MHz of video bandwidth and horizontal resolution which is 240 lines per picture height).
Simple put: THE INFORMATION IS JUST NOT THERE! You are comparing two unequal sources!

That concludes both the Layman and Technical explanation. Please take time to examine the intricacy and accuracy. I have a DK machine along with a two-bit score converter board,and VCR if you would like to see Billy play another game on this setup and see the results this can be arranged in my store in Fort Lauderdale .
http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-restore/2251-tbc-time-base.html (http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-restore/2251-tbc-time-base.html)

Thanks for Reading
Robert Childs
Arcade Game Sales
Fort Lauderdale, Florida
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: bh on February 11, 2018, 03:57:47 pm
Quote from:  maximumsteve
The TRANSLATION of RGB to NTSC changes the video’s appearance and characteristics of the signal (as in a CGA monitor) to a “more MAME looking signal output”.

This process cannot plausibly change the rendering order to match MAME identically.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: ChrisP on February 11, 2018, 04:31:41 pm
I have a DK machine along with a two-bit score converter board,and VCR if you would like to see Billy play another game on this setup and see the results this can be arranged in my store in Fort Lauderdale .

If you are still in possession of the original setup, then you have a golden opportunity to settle this (and with no technical explanation necessary).

I would strongly suggest that you do a quick recording of gameplay and upload it to YouTube. If the video shows the MAME-like transitions, then you'll go a long way toward vindicating Billy.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Mary McManus on February 11, 2018, 05:38:18 pm
What model of decoder board was used, what make an model was the secondary TV, the alternate signal was sent to and......>chuckel< what brand make and model .... "1970's" ......era VCR were you using in the 21st century  to record such important game play. I will go on a treasure hunt.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: homerwannabee on February 11, 2018, 05:53:32 pm
Except Robert Childs has a video where he takes out a Donkey Kong Junior board, and put in a Donkey Kong Junior board.  He took out the audio, and put opera music because the original audio was super incriminating.


Tell me, how on earth is this person credible after doing something like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvJEaAYSp9k (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvJEaAYSp9k)
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: tilt on February 11, 2018, 07:10:11 pm
Nice write up, but it equates to nothing.  That magic AD725 is an analog signal conversion chip, so no matter how much latency, loss, and color deviations from the original signal, frames aren't going to magically begin to drop out and float into the ozone.  Even when Gleed used a VCR to capture the video at 30 fps, the same exact results were seen.  No amount of fancy jargon will distract from the fact that the any amount of signal degrading that happens from the filters in the AD725 will not result in frames completely disappearing.  And it certainly won't cause the source video to starting looking like MAME for no particular reason.  If it turns out there was a digital conversion process here (which would contradict this released statement), sure we can discuss this kind of loss.  Otherwise, you would never see this happen.

For those who are interested, have a look at this extensive datasheet that includes helpful block diagrams for how this thing works: http://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/AD725.pdf (http://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/AD725.pdf)
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: maxxcat2018 on February 11, 2018, 07:17:25 pm
Nice write up, but it equates to nothing.  That magic AD725 is an analog signal conversion chip, so no matter how much latency, loss, and color deviations from the original signal, frames aren't going to magically begin to drop out and float into the ozone.  Even when Gleed used a VCR to capture the video at 30 fps, the same exact results were seen.  No amount of fancy jargon will distract from the fact that the any amount of signal degrading that happens from the filters in the AD725 will not result in frames completely disappearing.  And it certainly won't cause the source video to starting looking like MAME for no particular reason.  If it turns out there was a digital conversion process here (which would contradict this statement), sure we can discuss this kind of loss.  Otherwise, you would never see this happen.

For those who are interested, have a look at this extensive datasheet that includes helpful block diagrams for how this thing works: http://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/AD725.pdf (http://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/AD725.pdf)

There was some sort of mod for on a chip NES clones using the AD725 if I'm not mistaken. I THINK it was one for allowing MMC5 games  to work. (castlevania 3, etc.) if it's not that one, it's enabling virtua racing to work on genesis on a chip clones. Either one.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: colecomeister on February 11, 2018, 07:55:29 pm
5000 bucks? There was some dude offering $10,000 to tie his Dragster record I recall.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: SHLONKY on February 11, 2018, 09:17:39 pm
hi everyone, first post here so please bear with me! Ive spent 3 days trying to sign up at TG but the verification number i need to call isnt in service so luckily for you guys i found my way here! ....ill quit the chit chat and get straight to it!

@xelnia ...im not sure about here, but over at tg they seem to be lacking 1.062 tape footage...heres the last 10 mins
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbRN549NYuU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbRN549NYuU)
Im no expert but i have edited videos constantly for over 20 years, and i have a few issues with this video. Firstly the lack of sound..the newest post passed on from camp billy (ill state im neither for or against i just love detective work) its stated a device was used created and sold by two bits...heres the device
https://web.archive.org/web/20160914172952/http://www.twobits.com:80/RGB/rgbman.html (https://web.archive.org/web/20160914172952/http://www.twobits.com:80/RGB/rgbman.html)
from looking at it, it uses basic circuitry, and most likely uses this chip as the converter
https://4donline.ihs.com/images/VipMasterIC/IC/RAYT/RAYTS012/RAYTS012-1.pdf?hkey=EF798316E3902B6ED9A73243A3159BB0 (https://4donline.ihs.com/images/VipMasterIC/IC/RAYT/RAYTS012/RAYTS012-1.pdf?hkey=EF798316E3902B6ED9A73243A3159BB0)
this chip converts rgb to a digital rca signal and the two bits device INCLUDES sound. I will admit it needs wiring different to how originally intended (for jamma) but its no more difficult than wiring the rgb wires!
If your reading the chip manual please start at page 26 for the technical details.

going back to the video we can see its a vhs recording! supposedly captured via vcr, which im not sure is true. You see the game itself has a border made of pixels. usually you see this when recording on a pc in a window, or dare i say it....MAME.
We can assume due to the low bitrate of the video it was done in something crap like windows movie maker then uploaded to youtube, this conversion could of created the border....BUT, you can see that not only do the static lines exceed the top/bottom of the pixelated border, (1:00) but also both sides,meaning this is part of the original recording and the viewing area is windowed in both directions! (meaning the vcr is a secondary recording)
If you go 5 frames into 1:00 youl see the true viewable area recorded by the vcr.

other than that ive gone over the video at every static line and although there are some frame timing issues, nothing seems like a splice to me,but im no expert.

MAME:
there is a video on youtube that shows a viewing of steve weibes tape by a bunch of tg people, in it they discuss how easy it is to fake a run using software. i point this out as even though billy states he has no idea what mame is,his close friends do, though i donot know who exactly says it,maybe someone here can?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdTjaF1eEqo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdTjaF1eEqo)

the professionals:
billy states there are professionals on the case. Understanding how billy talks the word professional can be taken lightly. He stated he had 2 movie offers, then 1 turned out to be an independant documentary to follow KoK. So from following TG forum i think billys professionals are TG member christian pacman and the guy who wrote that very technical post! Wether this be known to them or not, i think they are his technical team hes praying on!
that brings me onto the "bomb" that was stated on the podcast billy appeared on....over at tg for a few pages they started losing their heads and conspiracising whos going to be blasted a cheat.....i think its deeper than that, and i think its possible the bomb will be "KoK 2" being all about how KoK was a setup. But then thats another conspiracy altogether! 

I had more info but its late and i just wanted to get this out there before i went to sleep! ill try and remember more if necessary. Iunderstand this post looks like im against billy but he has offered no defence, so i can only comment on whats been shown, which in his case is against him so far!

thank you :)


Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: YesAffinity on February 11, 2018, 09:52:47 pm
"Nor does he consider other plausible explanations such that the majority of these games from that era were notorious for image burn on the face of picture tubes and that most likely the picture tube was changed and the donor tube’s yoke was either installed 180 degrees the wrong way and the header connector was flipped to correct the orientation, or the yoke may not have been wedged in correctly and the picture was off center, or that the yoke was that of the donor monitor and was close enough to work with that monitor chassis."

Just want to point out that this piece of the potential explanations should be dismissed as it is upstream from the alleged direct feed that was going to a vcr and would have no bearing on a signal originating from the inverter board.  Also, the parts list for my setup is linked from page 1 of this thread, and I assume is also included on the tg dispute thread but either way is there for comparison.  In a nutshell, my signal is digitized at an external anchor bay vp 30, but up to that point is analog from the dk board to a mikes arcade inverter to a jrok v4.1 component output.

Would be great if a message could get back to Robert childs to requesting a 20 minute gameplay sample from the setup described and used for the recordings.  If the signal from the inverter board and two bit encoder (unfortunate name, or maybe accurate?  ;D) Are to blame for not replicating a true dk pcb video signal then it.doesnt matter if it's being recorded on a vcr or current gen hd capable camera phone at 60 fps.  Current gen 60 fps would obviously provide a clearer picture of the modified image.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: maximumsteve on February 12, 2018, 03:37:37 am
This is from Carlos Piniero, a SEGA Gameboard tech in the late 90's, early 2000's.....

 "I was a game board tech for Sega in the late 90s and early 2000s. I worked on board level repair of our gaming venue pinball machines to building the cabinet/controllers for our classic games. Working the classic games was ALWAYS tricky cause the pre-Jamma / Jamma boards always expected an exact original monitor. Donkey Kong was a vertical CGA output which the board was component tuned for the raster color monitor refresh rates. And these older Raster monitors were hard to find when the Internet was still growing in 1998. I can concur with the technical explanation that has been posted.
Compared to the old pc running mame to the hdmi RasPi new Mame output, the conversion technic would not work with explained setup cause of the video frequently outputs on a computer VGA port.
Robert's explanation is how it would have to be done with an original Donkey Kong board multi output."
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: SHLONKY on February 12, 2018, 07:17:22 am
ive posted technical info on the two bits recording device 2 posts up!
I also have more evidence to suggest the footage was recorded originally via a pc as opposed to a vcr! ill post that later on tonight once everythings collected.


This is from Carlos Piniero, a SEGA Gameboard tech in the late 90's, early 2000's.....

 "I was a game board tech for Sega in the late 90s and early 2000s. I worked on board level repair of our gaming venue pinball machines to building the cabinet/controllers for our classic games. Working the classic games was ALWAYS tricky cause the pre-Jamma / Jamma boards always expected an exact original monitor. Donkey Kong was a vertical CGA output which the board was component tuned for the raster color monitor refresh rates. And these older Raster monitors were hard to find when the Internet was still growing in 1998. I can concur with the technical explanation that has been posted.
Compared to the old pc running mame to the hdmi RasPi new Mame output, the conversion technic would not work with explained setup cause of the video frequently outputs on a computer VGA port.
Robert's explanation is how it would have to be done with an original Donkey Kong board multi output."
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: YesAffinity on February 12, 2018, 08:06:19 am
SHLONKY, thank you for your in-depth analysis.  If I can help in any way, recreating a composite direct feed capture on PC, and then recording it via VCR, which I believe is what your suggesting as to how the tapes were generated, let me know.  I agree that is another plausible possibility.

Also, if you would be so kind as to compare the Mike's arcade inverter board and JROK v4.1 to the stock inverter and two bits encoder, that would be a good comparison.  The MA inverter->JROK is what I have and can pull a direct feed from.  I also have a Wei Ya CV-04 encoder set up in a different (JAMMA) cab.

MA inverter: https://www.mikesarcade.com/cgi-bin/store.pl?sku=NININVAMP (https://www.mikesarcade.com/cgi-bin/store.pl?sku=NININVAMP)

JROK v4.1: http://jrok.com/hardware/jrok_rgb_encoder_pinout_diagrams.html (http://jrok.com/hardware/jrok_rgb_encoder_pinout_diagrams.html)

wei ya CV-04 http://www.weiya.com.tw/products_detail.asp?le=english&fid=114&pid=202&tCatName=RGB%20TO%20VIDEO (http://www.weiya.com.tw/products_detail.asp?le=english&fid=114&pid=202&tCatName=RGB%20TO%20VIDEO)

I can send hi def pictures of any of these, if internet information isn't sufficient.

I could potentially marry up the CV-04 with the MA inverter if that combination would be a closer match to the alleged original setup.  That would take a bit more effort tho, so hoping that could be avoided, but if it gets us closer to or identical to the original inverter/two bits encoder combination, then I will undertake it.

I also concur with the statements that the alleged setup used for the Billy recordings is the path of least resistance, all things considered.  I voiced that earlier, not that I believe that belief has any bearing on the claim.  Just a simple impartial statement that yes, direct feed from a DK  cab via an inverter board to an NTSC encoder would be relatively easy compared to some form of mame device that has playback ability integrated into a nintendo cab and creating inverted and uninverted video simultaneously.  At a minimum, the MAME PC/playback integration is an added layer in addition to the alleged setup.  But again, Mike's arcade has also been offering the jamma-to-nintendo adapter and the nintendo wiring harness-to-edge connector adapter since well before these recordings were created. In fact, in this combination, you wouldn't need the stock inverter board, you could simply tap the RGBS lines on the JAMMA side of the built-in inverter on the Mike's board, and send that to the NTSC encoder.  BUT, you could also let it all go from the MA adapters through the stock inverter board as pass-through and tapping the de-inverted output from the stock inverter board, as well.  It's an added layer of complexity, yes, but not an impossibility.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: SHLONKY on February 12, 2018, 08:39:35 am
SHLONKY, thank you for your in-depth analysis.  If I can help in any way, recreating a composite direct feed capture on PC, and then recording it via VCR, which I believe is what your suggesting as to how the tapes were generated, let me know.  I agree that is another plausible possibility.

Hi, yes thats how it seems...the donkey kong game was captured on pc, then transferred to vhs!

I have more evidence to suggest this is true,and this comes in the DKjr board swap video.
If you freeze frame on 1:00, youl see the device im assuming used to capture.....which you can blatantly see is a pc! Next to the PC is a purple/blue box which looks like either a capture device, or some kind of hook up to the big screen you can spot behind the PC ...OR..a capture device used to accompany the camera billy states was 30 feet away...Which is possibly true, as you can see a white tripod in the video at 4:10 (you may need to find the original upload to spot it as this video linked is a bit blurred but i dont have my info/links in front of me atm)..however, the tripod seems as if nothing is attached to it so im assuming this was the camera that the person is holding in the video!

The cab itself doesnt seem to have the two bits device visible inside, and i dont see any split wires, but if anyone can confirm what the cables plugged in are then we can eliminate wether the two bits device is attacted to the cab or not!

ill post more later when i have more time
thank you :)

Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: SHLONKY on February 12, 2018, 11:39:02 am
wei ya CV-04 http://www.weiya.com.tw/products_detail.asp?le=english&fid=114&pid=202&tCatName=RGB%20TO%20VIDEO (http://www.weiya.com.tw/products_detail.asp?le=english&fid=114&pid=202&tCatName=RGB%20TO%20VIDEO)

the cv-04 seems to be designed very similar to the two bits device, if you could supply a close up of the longest chip on the board i can compare it to the one in the twobits.

I think twobits discontinued the item in 2015.Its final price was $129, so id assume these could still be made today if you were to contact them. They now go under the name https://gameboardsusa.com/ (https://gameboardsusa.com/)

in this video we do get to see a glimpse of the dkjr score after the record is set....but sadly its too blurred to read, ill try some filters out when i get chance. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFLGF933tgc&t=10s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFLGF933tgc&t=10s)
the time to freeze frame is 1:25
the pc is still in view, though the screen looks untouched from the earlier video that was supposedly recorded hours earlier.
(ive also confirmed that the "big screen" i mentioned in my earlier post is in fact a drinks machine)

This following video is supposedly recorded just before the one above, mr childs has "just heard the news"....However, youl notce the equiptment is packed away, where the above video the pc is still setup and billy is talking of completing both records already.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvdrEgk2l6g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvdrEgk2l6g)
its possible in this video the pc can be identified as a dell laptop, but its hard to tell. (im yet to find the model but they released a fat rounded edge one that was a metallic blue finish that kind of matches whats on the table in this video).

Either way, at least 1 of the 3 videos from mr childs is recorded out of timeline to the rest! there is no doubt about that!


Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: YesAffinity on February 12, 2018, 12:55:32 pm
One thing I just noticed with me test setups - MAME .122 is set to not rotate, but appears to be rotated 180 degrees.  If you look at my arcade captures, the high score is on the right of the screen.  This is also true for the videos we see of the rotated tv's that are used to display the playback.  However, MAME .122 produces gameplay with the high score on the left of the screen.  This is true whether it's the arcade CRT (VGA out from an ArcadeVGA card) or on my LED, VCR etc (composite out from ArcadeVGA).  It's unlikely the AVGA card is doing something with the signal, because the windows desktop and everything else displays properly oriented.  Just something I noted, not sure what bearing it has.  At a minimum, possibly something that needs to be considered when comparing all of my MAME video to the Billy videos.

At any rate, here are pics of the CV-04.  I think that gets a clear picture of all the chips on the board.

[![20180212_123246.md.jpg](https://klovimg.com/images/2018/02/12/20180212_123246.md.jpg)](https://klovimg.com/image/3bPdg)
[![20180212_123242.md.jpg](https://klovimg.com/images/2018/02/12/20180212_123242.md.jpg)](https://klovimg.com/image/3bHcc)

Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: SHLONKY on February 12, 2018, 05:44:41 pm
One thing I just noticed with me test setups - MAME .122 is set to not rotate, but appears to be rotated 180 degrees.  If you look at my arcade captures, the high score is on the right of the screen.  This is also true for the videos we see of the rotated tv's that are used to display the playback.  However, MAME .122 produces gameplay with the high score on the left of the screen.  This is true whether it's the arcade CRT (VGA out from an ArcadeVGA card) or on my LED, VCR etc (composite out from ArcadeVGA).  It's unlikely the AVGA card is doing something with the signal, because the windows desktop and everything else displays properly oriented.  Just something I noted, not sure what bearing it has.  At a minimum, possibly something that needs to be considered when comparing all of my MAME video to the Billy videos.

At any rate, here are pics of the CV-04.  I think that gets a clear picture of all the chips on the board.

[![20180212_123246.md.jpg](https://klovimg.com/images/2018/02/12/20180212_123246.md.jpg)](https://klovimg.com/image/3bPdg)
[![20180212_123242.md.jpg](https://klovimg.com/images/2018/02/12/20180212_123242.md.jpg)](https://klovimg.com/image/3bHcc)

thanks for the closeups, sadly i cant see the markings on the chip. Is there anything written on it?
tbh though looking at it, it seems very very similar to how the twobits is designed, and wouldnt suprise me if one was made off the back of the other, either that or its just a standard technique.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: bh on February 12, 2018, 06:18:22 pm
thanks for the closeups, sadly i cant see the markings on the chip. Is there anything written on it?
tbh though looking at it, it seems very very similar to how the twobits is designed, and wouldnt suprise me if one was made off the back of the other, either that or its just a standard technique.

Load the full res versions. The 24-pin chip is labeled "BH7236AF 612 T04"

https://klovimg.com/images/2018/02/12/20180212_123246.jpg

https://klovimg.com/images/2018/02/12/20180212_123242.jpg
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: SHLONKY on February 12, 2018, 07:52:13 pm
thanks for the closeups, sadly i cant see the markings on the chip. Is there anything written on it?
tbh though looking at it, it seems very very similar to how the twobits is designed, and wouldnt suprise me if one was made off the back of the other, either that or its just a standard technique.

Load the full res versions. The 24-pin chip is labeled "BH7236AF 612 T04"

https://klovimg.com/images/2018/02/12/20180212_123246.jpg (https://klovimg.com/images/2018/02/12/20180212_123246.jpg)

https://klovimg.com/images/2018/02/12/20180212_123242.jpg (https://klovimg.com/images/2018/02/12/20180212_123242.jpg)

apologies, id only clicked the first one and saw the flash had erased the number.
heres the link to the chip http://datasheetz.com/data/Integrated%20Circuits%20(ICs)/Video%20Processing/BH7236AF-E2-datasheetz.html (http://datasheetz.com/data/Integrated%20Circuits%20(ICs)/Video%20Processing/BH7236AF-E2-datasheetz.html)
It seems it has a built in delay that i cannot find any info on, but tbh id expect it to be no greater than 20us (0.2ms).
im pretty sure this is the one the jrok uses https://console5.com/techwiki/images/f/fb/CXA1145PM.pdf (https://console5.com/techwiki/images/f/fb/CXA1145PM.pdf) which is very similar and possibly an alternative chip to the BH7236. It operates with a 10us delay (0.1ms).

interesting enough theres a diagram here on howto connect the two bits device to a cga monitor.
https://web.archive.org/web/20170618044418/http://www.twobits.com/RGB/cga.gif (https://web.archive.org/web/20170618044418/http://www.twobits.com/RGB/cga.gif)

and here explains howto invert the positive signalof your board to a negative one
https://web.archive.org/web/20160422221734/http://www.twobits.com/RGB/sync.html (https://web.archive.org/web/20160422221734/http://www.twobits.com/RGB/sync.html)
You may notice this conflicts with what mr childs says in his long post! He states the signal needed to be converted to positive instead of feeding from the boards negative signal. However the converter wants a negative signal,and even if it did need positive then this could of been taken directly from the nintendo on board inverter. There would of been no need to build a seperate adaptor, and even if they did it wouldnt of worked anyway as theyd of been feeding it positive where it wants negative.



Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: SHLONKY on February 12, 2018, 09:23:47 pm
after watching the 1.06dk video for the 7 millionth time it finally dawned on me that its been recorded to vhs sideways. You can tell because the static lines are vertical and not horizontal. The two bits device outputs to a standard size screen and will fill the screen the best it can. There would be no reason why it would record sideways.

If i may add my own personal opinion, then at this time, it seems its possible that the game footage was recorded via pc, the screen was flipped, and then transferred to vhs. Maybe at the time TG wouldnt accept a digital recording? so this passed off as a direct feed to vhs.

Theres a few other things ive spotted with the 1.062 recording but its just speculation as of yet so i will do more research and report back if im confident its not just a conspiracy to add to the pile! 
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: esuna on February 12, 2018, 09:50:48 pm
apologies if this is superfluous/has already been done, but i've compiled animated gifs from the recently-uploaded "Big Bang 2010 - Billy Mitchell DK & DK Jr Record Announcement (https://youtu.be/l-LRptUQwFE)" clip published by GDLarcade which provides footage from a different camera. the clip's video is inferior to xelnia's upload (https://youtu.be/7y15Y6xrpXY) of the same scene, but it shows the transition screens. exposure/shadow (?) issues occasionally obscure parts of the GDLarcade footage, making it difficult to discern, but maybe it can still be used to refine conclusions. xelnia's is cropped but much easier to analyse.

the structure of the gifs is as follows, Frame #:

i've included the frame number in all gifs at the top-left, except for xelnia's which is at the bottom-left. all frames are one second long except the last (#10), which is three seconds long. the bottom-right gif is cropped from xelnia's upload.

1. GDLarcade / 00:48–00:51 (https://youtu.be/l-LRptUQwFE?&t=47)
(https://i.imgur.com/1wiFoAl.gif)
2. GDLarcade / 02:21–02:24 (https://youtu.be/l-LRptUQwFE?t=140)
(https://i.imgur.com/rotQgjF.gif)
3. GDLarcade / 03:12–03:15 (https://youtu.be/l-LRptUQwFE?t=191)
(https://i.imgur.com/NmoBZEM.gif)
4. GDLarcade / 05:01–05:04 (https://youtu.be/l-LRptUQwFE?t=300)
(https://i.imgur.com/wP7qQzG.gif)
5. GDLarcade / 06:45–06:47 (https://youtu.be/l-LRptUQwFE?t=404)
(https://i.imgur.com/U2y5ZL9.gif)
6. GDLarcade / 08:52–8:54 (https://youtu.be/l-LRptUQwFE?t=531)
(https://i.imgur.com/RkNM73l.gif)
7. GDLarcade / 09:38-09:41 (https://youtu.be/l-LRptUQwFE?t=577)
(https://i.imgur.com/6zeoUdt.gif)
8. xelnia / 08:14–08:17 (https://youtu.be/7y15Y6xrpXY?t=493)
(https://i.imgur.com/ZeQahdx.gif)

[edit: url and time corrections. bye. :) ]
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: YesAffinity on February 12, 2018, 10:15:46 pm
after watching the 1.06dk video for the 7 millionth time it finally dawned on me that its been recorded to vhs sideways. You can tell because the static lines are vertical and not horizontal. The two bits device outputs to a standard size screen and will fill the screen the best it can. There would be no reason why it would record sideways.

As dk is a vertical game, yes it will appear to be on its side if displayed on a monitor that is horizontally oriented.

https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=1413.msg25141#msg25141 (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=1413.msg25141#msg25141)
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: SHLONKY on February 13, 2018, 03:50:20 am
after watching the 1.06dk video for the 7 millionth time it finally dawned on me that its been recorded to vhs sideways. You can tell because the static lines are vertical and not horizontal. The two bits device outputs to a standard size screen and will fill the screen the best it can. There would be no reason why it would record sideways.

As dk is a vertical game, yes it will appear to be on its side if displayed on a monitor that is horizontally oriented.

https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=1413.msg25141#msg25141 (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=1413.msg25141#msg25141)

thanks for confirming, that was the last post before bedtime so hadnt looked it up!

another thing to note that would goin billys defence is that the jrok board apparently is known for pushing the displayed image slightly to the right. I cant find where i saw the post but here or tg someone mentioned the vhs recodings are off centre to the screen. This issue could also be present with the twobits device?
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: YesAffinity on February 13, 2018, 08:46:08 am
^That would just mean that whatever was coming out of the cabinet was going through the two bits device, or something causing an offset, but not evidence of whether the signal was MAME, VCR, arcade or anything else.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Sock Master on February 13, 2018, 09:28:12 am
after watching the 1.06dk video for the 7 millionth time it finally dawned on me that its been recorded to vhs sideways. You can tell because the static lines are vertical and not horizontal. The two bits device outputs to a standard size screen and will fill the screen the best it can. There would be no reason why it would record sideways.

If i may add my own personal opinion, then at this time, it seems its possible that the game footage was recorded via pc, the screen was flipped, and then transferred to vhs. Maybe at the time TG wouldnt accept a digital recording? so this passed off as a direct feed to vhs.

Theres a few other things ive spotted with the 1.062 recording but its just speculation as of yet so i will do more research and report back if im confident its not just a conspiracy to add to the pile!

SHLONKY, it would be best not to make speculations or guesses.  This is what the Billy team is doing and that's why their statements can be torn apart so readily.

Yes DK's video is sideways.  MAME can also output the video sideways with the -norotate option.   The first two Billy tapes are sideways but in the opposite orientation of actual DK video because MAME's -norotate option rotates the video the wrong way.  By Billy's third videotape the game is rotated the correct orientation because they probably realized they screwed up the first two times, but the dimensions of the playfield and the size of the borders are completely incorrect for DK PCB video.

The Two Bit device could not do any such thing as "fill the screen the best it can".  It does not modify, recompose, resize or rotate the video.  It simply combines the R,G,B and SYNC signals and multiplexes them into an NTSC composite signal.  No brains, no framebuffer, no processing in the device whatsoever.  It's a 2$ chip on there, it can't perform all these things people are attributing to it.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: SHLONKY on February 13, 2018, 10:11:17 am
after watching the 1.06dk video for the 7 millionth time it finally dawned on me that its been recorded to vhs sideways. You can tell because the static lines are vertical and not horizontal. The two bits device outputs to a standard size screen and will fill the screen the best it can. There would be no reason why it would record sideways.

If i may add my own personal opinion, then at this time, it seems its possible that the game footage was recorded via pc, the screen was flipped, and then transferred to vhs. Maybe at the time TG wouldnt accept a digital recording? so this passed off as a direct feed to vhs.

Theres a few other things ive spotted with the 1.062 recording but its just speculation as of yet so i will do more research and report back if im confident its not just a conspiracy to add to the pile!

SHLONKY, it would be best not to make speculations or guesses.  This is what the Billy team is doing and that's why their statements can be torn apart so readily.

Yes DK's video is sideways.  MAME can also output the video sideways with the -norotate option.   The first two Billy tapes are sideways but in the opposite orientation of actual DK video because MAME's -norotate option rotates the video the wrong way.  By Billy's third videotape the game is rotated the correct orientation because they probably realized they screwed up the first two times, but the dimensions of the playfield and the size of the borders are completely incorrect for DK PCB video.

The Two Bit device could not do any such thing as "fill the screen the best it can".  It does not modify, recompose, resize or rotate the video.  It simply combines the R,G,B and SYNC signals and multiplexes them into an NTSC composite signal.  No brains, no framebuffer, no processing in the device whatsoever.  It's a 2$ chip on there, it can't perform all these things people are attributing to it.

hi, i put my personal opinion aside from my findings, please dont think i combine the both together! I understand you can rotate the screen in mame, but my point here on dkf is to just put forward my findings that the DK footage was NOT originally recorded on VHS. If anything this goes towards the mame theory, but because i do not know exactly how mame draws to a screen then i wont pretend to be able to help in that area. But where i can help...i will!

when i said "fill the screen" i didnt mean it was altering the image size, i just meant it will not window the output as seen in the dk 1.062 video. If you read my original post on page 9 youl understand what i mean. The vhs viewable area is way different to the original recorded area.

thanks :)


Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Sock Master on February 13, 2018, 10:42:56 am
hi, i put my personal opinion aside from my findings, please dont think i combine the both together! I understand you can rotate the screen in mame, but my point here on dkf is to just put forward my findings that the DK footage was NOT originally recorded on VHS. If anything this goes towards the mame theory, but because i do not know exactly how mame draws to a screen then i wont pretend to be able to help in that area. But where i can help...i will!

when i said "fill the screen" i didnt mean it was altering the image size, i just meant it will not window the output as seen in the dk 1.062 video. If you read my original post on page 9 youl understand what i mean. The vhs viewable area is way different to the original recorded area.

Ah.  My guess (and just a guess so I never brought it up before) is that maybe for the 1.062 recording MAME was simply set to higher resolution screen mode and scaling turned off, making the gameplay slightly smaller relative to the screen area.    Someone could probably do some math to figure out what resolution it might be.   DK is 256X224.  If the PC was set to 320X240, lets say, there'd be a black border all around.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: maximumsteve on February 13, 2018, 11:30:05 am
 Joel asked me to post this regarding the situation. While I personally do not agree or in concert with Joel on many matters that have nothing to do with this dispute, I feel there are some points addressed in this message and questions that have yet to be answered that everyone should take a look at.... Thank you...

It is important to look at two areas of salient points from Robert Childs’ Video Analysis:

Relating to using a RGB to NTSC Converter to a camera:
1. The visual Billy saw on his monitor was the same as Steve Wiebe saw on his monitor.
2. Billy could not see the feed going to the saved tape while playing.
3. Billy had no advantage by using a video converter.
4. The only advantage to using a video converter was to the camera owner. A camera could not be knocked over standing on a tripod behind the player.

Relating to the legal and common-sense aspects:
1. Looking like MAME is not MAME, nor a violation that even approaches “cheating”.
2. The accusation of using MAME doesn’t make sense. It would be too much work.
* The risk would not present enough gain over the possibility of being discovered.
* Any player who could get 1 Million nearly 8 years ago on MAME would be able to probably get more on arcade than a mere 1,062,800 points. This is speculative but a highly possible speculation.
* If Billy was so well versed on MAME, when arcade scores became beyond his current reach, why did he not “retire from arcades” and go onto mastering “another platform”? Cheaters love attention … that is WHY they cheat. No one was close to 1M in MAME at that time. Why did he not do this? Fear of discovery? No. If he had put a computer inside an arcade cabinet, he would be brazen enough to switch platforms … because he craved the attention. Cheating is like an addiction … once you “get away with it’ the next time is easy, and oft times bigger. Billy has submitted nothing since 2010.
* If I remember correctly, MAME had a certain amount of lag on some games at that time. That would have been a negative for using MAME if it applied to DK.
3. Even IF …
* the prescribed method of verification at that time was put aside (which would be “changing the rules after the acceptance of proof”), changing the standard of proof after acceptance is an unfair standard.
Even IF …
* multiple eyewitness testimony is discounted (which it should not be) … when a dispute is involved and the tape is missing from TG “archives”, as it is in this case, when representatives present of TG at that time are not consulted or even “trusted” to comment their remembrance … then other standards that HAVE been used in the past (eye witness testimony, etc.) MUST be used.
This situation is NOT to certify a NEW record/score, but to confirm an OLD, ALREADY EXISTING score. Therefore, TG would NOT be violating their current standard of accepting video only to verify a record because this is NOT a new record.
The goal is to establish the validity of THIS record/score, already once certified by older standards.
Using the standards of the past when current standards cannot be met, mainly because TG cannot find the tape in their “archives”, that is NOT the fault of the player.
4. Even If ...
TG would dismiss the effort to find the video footage that was in their possession WHICH IS TG’s RESPONSIBILITY to produce since they initially certified the record … if they dismiss THIS record because they can’t “find the tape” then how many THOUSANDS of OTHER records/scores MUST they AUTOMATICALLY dismiss upon any challenge?. That act alone could start an avalanche of revenge seekers seeking to remove whatever they can because the rules “allow it”.
HIRE MORE STAFF, cut into the profits, the floodgates are about to open!
* TG has a responsibility to honor tapes that were once in their custody, regardless of ownership changes, especially if they cannot “find” a tape that was in their charge to protect. Once in their “archives”, whether they deny this duty, real or implied, it is their legal fiduciary duty.

SIMPLY PUT: NO SCORES involving once submitted tapes should ever be removed should TG not be able to put their hands on the tape they once certified as a legitimate score. Once they have it, it’s their responsibility. NO EXCEPTIONS. This is an ALL or NONE precedent.

If TG allows “challenges” without reasonable proof, they essentially are allowing accusations of innuendo and/or suspicion. That is NOT what the Dispute System should become … a grudge system to punish those whom one is jealous of and does not like.

I propose discussions to change this system. While one may agree or disagree with the Todd Rogers decision, the challenge issued to his situation involved a standing world record. Billy Mitchell’s score was no longer even in the Top 10. This leads to strong belief that this served no purpose other than to harm Billy and TG allowed it.
I propose that TG ONLY allows challenges:
1. On standing World Records
2. Require reasonable proof, not speculation, suspicion, or innuendo.
3. Examine the motives of the one submitting the challenge … search social media for harassment, threats, or promises of “getting even”. This is preliminary work that TG should do to prevent the misuse of the Dispute System, a “due diligence” to prevent “frivolous” challenges and to PROTECT ITS MEMBERS.

Example: one World Record that was thought “a fake” was the former (now #2) world record on Q-Bert. George Leutz struggled mightily but overcame that score after 84 hours and 48 of play. Even tho EVERYONE thought the previous record was fake.

Billy found out about this challenge as when most people did who do not frequent the forums by a TG Facebook post on Friday, February 2, 2018. Billy isn’t on Facebook, so someone had to alert him about it via email.

As it stands now TG does not notify the owner of the disputed record. It is up to the challenger to “prove his case”, and then the record is removed. It would seem that TG should have the interest of both the challenger and the challenged member at heart. Now, if a member is not on the TG forums and/or Facebook … they essentially could have their record removed without knowing about the challenge or having a chance to defend themselves before removal.
How FAIR is that?

The challenge of Billy Mitchell’s old DK world record, not currently even in the Top 10 is a prime candidate of jealousy and vindictiveness. Oh, Billy DID THE SCORE, but there is wide-spread jealousy because of the movies, personal appearances, the persona, fame and attention. Current Top DK scorers will NEVER achieve the fame the Pioneer did, no matter how high they score. TG should take challenge disputes rooted in emotion and personal attack into account and not allow them.

I propose these ideas as the basis for an improvement in the Dispute System. We all know how things will work out if Billy is proven guilty. How will Billy recover from the personal attacks, the embarrassment, the loss of respect, the loss of business and the toll on him and his family when he is proven innocent? Will TG or the froth-filled forum members even apologize? If they did, what would it be worth? Remember, video games are supposed to be fun, not blood sport that harms your personal life..
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Kewydee_17 on February 13, 2018, 12:31:47 pm



Legal aspects?


Legal in what sense? This isn't a law court.


This is bluster from the off, trying to appeal that this could be a quasi-legal case when it is not. In the US you can be sued for anything instantly.


Looking like MAME isn't MAME?


So, looking like Arcade isn't Arcade if you use the same thought process


It would be too much work?


What does that mean? Define too much. An afternoon, a day, a week, months?


The risk would not present enough gain over the possibility of being discovered.

Only if you thought you might get caught

MAME had a certain amount of lag on some games at that time. That would have been a negative for using MAME if it applied to DK.

Not a problem if you save state. If you encounter lag, just retry. This could have been done over and over.

Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: QAOP Spaceman on February 13, 2018, 01:51:21 pm
Quote
What an idiot

I'll reframe that, no need for ad hominem attacks.

What an idiotic thing to say.

Quote from: Joel West
jealousy and vindictiveness.

Evidence and evidence.

Quote from: Joel West
Oh, Billy DID THE SCORE, but there is wide-spread jealousy because of the movies, personal appearances, the persona, fame and attention.

I thought dwayne did the score? It's hard to keep up with the nut-swingers.

Jealous of Billy's persona?

Jees-oh.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: RobbyMulvany on February 13, 2018, 04:55:52 pm
Man, ya'll making me create an account after lurking for months....dammit...

Quote
Looking like MAME is not MAME, nor a violation that even approaches “cheating”.

Then let's see a single other DK PCB that "looks like MAME" - just one.

Quote
* If I remember correctly, MAME had a certain amount of lag on some games at that time. That would have been a negative for using MAME if it applied to DK.

Not when you're using save states to get more blue barrels.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: RobbyMulvany on February 13, 2018, 05:03:41 pm
I don't even consider Billy's obvious MAME use to be his biggest sin. I think accusing Robbie and Wes of cheating with magical jump buttons is far more treacherous. And yes - Billy is the one that got the ball rolling on this. I know for a fact TriForce was told by Billy and NOT Richie Knuckelz. Those are the only two guys that would have stirred this up, and when I called out TF on Billy being the one that told him -  he deleted my post and blocked me. He never denied it, but he did deny getting the information from Richie.

To further prove the point that it was Billy - when TriForce made his ridiculous video about "the real cheaters" - Wes caught on to what TF was talking about, so he made a statement that squashed the incident immediately. TF looked like a fool. I contacted TF and told him I would vouch for him that he was sold a bunch of BS about these buttons. I too had heard about these magical buttons (from Richie, who said I was the only person he told). Since I don't know anything about arcade hardware I suspected TF was the same and just repeated what he was told. At this point, I didn't have any issues with TF, so I extended the olive branch (despite knowing he would defend Billy to no end) and offered to explain that TF was just ignorant to the button issue and was repeating what he was told. TF told me he didn't need my help and his reputation was just fine. That's when I knew it was Billy that told him. TF would have quickly thrown Richie under the bus, but he'd never throw Billy under there. TF was more than happy taking the bullet for Billy. On the positive side, it wasn't a head shot, because it's impossible to do that when his head is up Billy's ass.

So I believe Billy is 100% behind the "real cheaters" crap that came out - and to me, that takes him from being a cheater to being a scumbag.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: maximumsteve on February 14, 2018, 06:24:59 am
Hello All. I am relaying this from Robert Childs as he does not have an account on here....

Here are the pictures of the two-bit converter board along with a scan of the receipt. We bought 2 converter boards over a 3 year period, 1 of which I have in my possession now. I am not sure where the other one is but around here somewhere.
Many have questioned the existence of a convertor as explained in the original post, since the setup in question was done years ago. But everything used in the creation of that tape is being brought together....
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: gstrain on February 14, 2018, 08:04:35 am
Hello All. I am relaying this from Robert Childs as he does not have an account on here....

Here are the pictures of the two-bit converter board along with a scan of the receipt. We bought 2 converter boards over a 3 year period, 1 of which I have in my possession now. I am not sure where the other one is but around here somewhere.
Many have questioned the existence of a convertor as explained in the original post, since the setup in question was done years ago. But everything used in the creation of that tape is being brought together....
Direct capture recording via a converter board from a DK machine is certainly possible and has never been disputed.  Xelnia accounted for what direct capture recordings look like in his very first post on this thread.  They don't look like what is on Billy's videos.  The only thing that looks like what is on Billy's videos is MAME. 

The board you show in the screenshots below does not:
-have a framebuffer nor can it change the order of frames.
-have digital processing to recompose the contents of frames
-have the ability to rotate the image as seen in the two older videotapes
-have the ability to rescale the screen to create large borders like the last videotape
-but it does have audio

Billy's videos draw partial frames the way MAME does.  Direct capture video still draws partial frames the way Arcade does, not the way MAME does. So this board was not used to make those videos.  Use of this converter board will not result in partially drawn frames looking like they do in the available gameplay videos of Billy's play from his 1,047,200 (the King of Kong "tape"), 1,050,200 (the Mortgage Brokers score), and 1,062,800 (the Boomers score) scores.  So it was not used in recording those videos.

In addition audio is clearly visible in the screenshots of the board.  Please explain why it was not used and why prior claims were made that audio could not be recorded with direct feed.  As previously explained, MAME audio available at the time was easily distinguishable from arcade audio, so someone using MAME would intentionally avoid including audio.
   
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: SHLONKY on February 14, 2018, 09:45:14 am
Hello All. I am relaying this from Robert Childs as he does not have an account on here....

Here are the pictures of the two-bit converter board along with a scan of the receipt. We bought 2 converter boards over a 3 year period, 1 of which I have in my possession now. I am not sure where the other one is but around here somewhere.
Many have questioned the existence of a convertor as explained in the original post, since the setup in question was done years ago. But everything used in the creation of that tape is being brought together....

Steve i think the issue here is that due to these pplnot having accounts anywhere thenthe info being relayed isnt really relevant to the issue!
What really needs to happen is that direct questions get answered!

firstly....the 2bits board has sound! why did mr childs say it didnt?
secondly... what is the PC for in mr childs dkjr board swap videos?
thirdly... why can we not see any wires that would link the 2 bits device in these videos?
fourth... only mame draws to the screen how its been shown, no video codec or anything would change this. So please explain, or recreate the scenario if we are to be proven wrong! (in your defence if you chose this option i would record every instance it takes to mirror it with a seperate videocam, to save yourselves from future issues!)

the answers we are getting relayed atm are very detailed, but dont really have anything to do with the actual issue! They are also heaily flawed in the fact mr childs spent 3 paragraphs talking about a chip that ISNT on the two bits device! At some point someone has to open up, because its no longer just billys integrity that is at stake here! theres others being dragged into it! If we are to be proven wrong then it needs to be shown....theres no need for a new movie explanation, theres no need for a live publicity stunt.

actually i have 1 last question for mr childs......why offer $5000 then follow it up with a condition that requires a lawyer? you may aswel of said " im certain but i might be wrong"!  if your 100% certain then youd offer the money regardless!

thats all i have for now!id like to point out that im still neither for or against, i just want the truth!
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Scoundrl on February 14, 2018, 06:22:58 pm
Not intended as evidence, just so I have an easy spot to place it... Cap from my cam on my cab 1080@60 according to the ios settings. I have no more technical information than that.

Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Scoundrl on February 14, 2018, 07:17:11 pm
Kong first this time. Camera oriented @ 90^

This all looks like problems with the setup. I dont have a camera that will capture with no loss at a rate faster than the machine can output.

Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: qnz on February 14, 2018, 08:10:59 pm
Hi,

I tried to post this over on twingalaxies, but my ancient account can't post there for some reason.

Anyway, I wanted to say that I'm unconvinced that this frame-by-frame analysis is good evidence.  Note that I'm not saying I think you guys are wrong overall.  I don't have a position on that, but agree there's a bunch of other fishy stuff (board swap, anyone?).  I just think this video analysis is weak.

Why do I think it's weak?  I guess the summary would be that this frame-by-frame analysis of transitions is too new for people to be making such definitive statements about it.  My opinion, obviously.  But when I first read the initial post with the gifs, etc., I thought, "Wow, that's pretty clear."  But the underlying assumption there is that there's are always clear differences that we should see.  Some version of MAME always does transitions like X.  Arcade always does transitions like Y.

If you go look through some video, though, it's totally not the case. Some transitions in Billy's recordings exactly match some transitions in known Arcade recordings.  Reality is that even in a single recording, there are a number of different transitions seen.  Triforce posted a video earlier pointing out the same thing, so I won't go into it more.

Then there's Jace Hall on TG basically saying how he's an expert in all things video, and after a bunch of analysis, they're pretty sure that the oil can should never appear without DK in the frame as well.  In an amazing bit of timing, he then posts
Quote
...we believe we have now successfully identified and have nearly definitively confirmed...
and
Quote
Any type of signal conversion from RGB to NTSC (or otherwise) from an unmodified Original Donkey Kong PCB can not produce an image of the Oil Barrel without the Donkey Kong character present, since that image does not ever exist in the original signal.
Note the "or otherwise" there.  This is posted roughly 20 minutes _after_ Scoundrl has shown counter-evidence.  But that's okay!  20 minutes after that, he explains it away as CRT effects.  Fine, I can believe that.  But then, he continues:
Quote
It is important to understand that this can not happen in a direct-feed scenario. An RGB to NTSC conversion going straight to VHS tape never has this moment in the signal. There are no CRT phosphors to hold a partial image for 1/60th of a second and the framerate / field recording is exactly the incoming signal with no image recomposition being performed. The above appears to be a visual artifact and image that got created by the external camera being out of sync with an actual video display.
Ummm, what exactly are we looking at in the video of Billy's 1.047M game?  Yeah, a camera recording an image from a CRT monitor.  At least, that's what it looks like to me.  What about the footage from the Big Bang event?  Very obviously CRTs.  (The 1.050M game does look more like an LCD to me, but I have no idea whether that should introduce similar artifacts or not.)


What seems (to me) to be happening is that people have already decided that Billy's tapes are bogus.  And now they're "proving" what they've already decided, so fail to be properly skeptical of their methods.

You know what this really reminds me of?  The completely bogus analysis of Steve Weibe's tape from KoK.  Here it is, take a listen, even if you've already heard it before:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdTjaF1eEqo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdTjaF1eEqo)

Listen to how confident Brian and Dwayne are about the "altered board aspects" and how wild barrels on level 5 should act differently. They're completely sure something is wrong and wild barrels should be 'faster'.  But a decade later, after disassembly and code analysis, along with tons of play by lots of people, we know the truth.  They are dead wrong.  That is exactly how wild barrels on level 5 are supposed to work.  Again: They are convinced they're right, but are completely wrong.

Are you guys doing the same thing now with this board transition analysis and rendering aspects?  I don't claim to know, but it smells kinda similar to me.  Everyone seems to be very sure that Billy's tapes shouldn't look the way they do.

As I said above, I'm not saying you're wrong overall, or even specifically about this frame-by-frame video stuff.  I just think there are very serious flaws in the argument.


Todd
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: dwayne on February 15, 2018, 12:13:54 am
todd   ok i admit i was wrong but what about the 8 way joystick he was playing with on his double donkey kong board on that video.  You did not give the whole story from the evidence. Weibe did cheat not the same fraud as bill surely you have to agree to that.  dwayne
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Snazzavich on February 15, 2018, 01:10:23 am
qnz, it's not some guys sitting in a room talking about their gut feelings. its image analysis and like numbers and stuff.

you take away the celebrity, look at what you got

looks like emu + ridiculous rng + no reliable witnesses = cheating

that's what any community would decide.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Sqrlmonger on February 15, 2018, 02:29:00 am
Hi,

I tried to post this over on twingalaxies, but my ancient account can't post there for some reason.

Anyway, I wanted to say that I'm unconvinced that this frame-by-frame analysis is good evidence.  Note that I'm not saying I think you guys are wrong overall.  I don't have a position on that, but agree there's a bunch of other fishy stuff (board swap, anyone?).  I just think this video analysis is weak.

Why do I think it's weak?  I guess the summary would be that this frame-by-frame analysis of transitions is too new for people to be making such definitive statements about it.  My opinion, obviously.  But when I first read the initial post with the gifs, etc., I thought, "Wow, that's pretty clear."  But the underlying assumption there is that there's are always clear differences that we should see.  Some version of MAME always does transitions like X.  Arcade always does transitions like Y.

If you go look through some video, though, it's totally not the case. Some transitions in Billy's recordings exactly match some transitions in known Arcade recordings.  Reality is that even in a single recording, there are a number of different transitions seen.  Triforce posted a video earlier pointing out the same thing, so I won't go into it more.

Then there's Jace Hall on TG basically saying how he's an expert in all things video, and after a bunch of analysis, they're pretty sure that the oil can should never appear without DK in the frame as well.  In an amazing bit of timing, he then posts
Quote
...we believe we have now successfully identified and have nearly definitively confirmed...
and
Quote
Any type of signal conversion from RGB to NTSC (or otherwise) from an unmodified Original Donkey Kong PCB can not produce an image of the Oil Barrel without the Donkey Kong character present, since that image does not ever exist in the original signal.
Note the "or otherwise" there.  This is posted roughly 20 minutes _after_ Scoundrl has shown counter-evidence.  But that's okay!  20 minutes after that, he explains it away as CRT effects.  Fine, I can believe that.  But then, he continues:
Quote
It is important to understand that this can not happen in a direct-feed scenario. An RGB to NTSC conversion going straight to VHS tape never has this moment in the signal. There are no CRT phosphors to hold a partial image for 1/60th of a second and the framerate / field recording is exactly the incoming signal with no image recomposition being performed. The above appears to be a visual artifact and image that got created by the external camera being out of sync with an actual video display.
Ummm, what exactly are we looking at in the video of Billy's 1.047M game?  Yeah, a camera recording an image from a CRT monitor.  At least, that's what it looks like to me.  What about the footage from the Big Bang event?  Very obviously CRTs.  (The 1.050M game does look more like an LCD to me, but I have no idea whether that should introduce similar artifacts or not.)


What seems (to me) to be happening is that people have already decided that Billy's tapes are bogus.  And now they're "proving" what they've already decided, so fail to be properly skeptical of their methods.

You know what this really reminds me of?  The completely bogus analysis of Steve Weibe's tape from KoK.  Here it is, take a listen, even if you've already heard it before:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdTjaF1eEqo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdTjaF1eEqo)

Listen to how confident Brian and Dwayne are about the "altered board aspects" and how wild barrels on level 5 should act differently. They're completely sure something is wrong and wild barrels should be 'faster'.  But a decade later, after disassembly and code analysis, along with tons of play by lots of people, we know the truth.  They are dead wrong.  That is exactly how wild barrels on level 5 are supposed to work.  Again: They are convinced they're right, but are completely wrong.

Are you guys doing the same thing now with this board transition analysis and rendering aspects?  I don't claim to know, but it smells kinda similar to me.  Everyone seems to be very sure that Billy's tapes shouldn't look the way they do.

As I said above, I'm not saying you're wrong overall, or even specifically about this frame-by-frame video stuff.  I just think there are very serious flaws in the argument.


Todd

I'm trying to piece your post together here and understand it. 

1) Scoundrl posted his screenshot at 2/14/2018 at 9:40 PM.

2) Jace posts 25 minutes later to provide an update to his DK/Blue Barrel post.  This post does not address Scoundrl's image because that image has not been posted yet. It appears to me to actually be, in part at least,  a reply to YesAffinity who had responded to Jace's original post about the DK/Blue Barrel info at 5:57 AM that morning. 

3) The original post about the DK/Blue Barrel information came 2/13/2018 at 5:48 PM over 24 hours before Scoundrl's image was posted and in fact Scoundrl had not posted at all between this post and his image post.

4) Jace actually addresses Scoundrl's image at 2/15/2018 at 12:19 AM fully 2 hours and 39 minutes later (as opposed to the 20 minutes you stated).  Given that Jace has presumably been marinating in this information for days now I am not surprised he was able to respond within 3 hours and in fact 20 minutes seems very reasonable to me as well.

I also believe there may be some substantive issues with your comment in addition to what I believe are the timing errors, for instance you are mixing up Jace's posts and seem to be implying he said things in a single post that were spread out over several giving a false impression of reactionary replies.  Additionally, I'm not sure you understood the replies, possibly because you seem unclear about who he was actually responding to at various points.

I won't delve further into your comment for the time being because of these timing issues, but if you can clean up or clarify your concerns in light of this information perhaps a more substantive discussion could be had.  Alternatively, let me know if I made a mistake in my understanding of what you were saying.

Sorry to fact check you but we live in a trust but verify age these days.

Cheers

edit: Added a strike to a part I left in by mistake after re-arranging my thoughts before the original publish of my comment.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: maximumsteve on February 15, 2018, 03:41:11 am
"Direct capture recording via a converter board from a DK machine is certainly possible and has never been disputed.  Xelnia accounted for what direct capture recordings look like in his very first post on this thread.  They don't look like what is on Billy's videos.  The only thing that looks like what is on Billy's videos is MAME. 

The board you show in the screenshots below does not:
-have a framebuffer nor can it change the order of frames.
-have digital processing to recompose the contents of frames
-have the ability to rotate the image as seen in the two older videotapes
-have the ability to rescale the screen to create large borders like the last videotape
-but it does have audio

Billy's videos draw partial frames the way MAME does.  Direct capture video still draws partial frames the way Arcade does, not the way MAME does. So this board was not used to make those videos.  Use of this converter board will not result in partially drawn frames looking like they do in the available gameplay videos of Billy's play from his 1,047,200 (the King of Kong "tape"), 1,050,200 (the Mortgage Brokers score), and 1,062,800 (the Boomers score) scores.  So it was not used in recording those videos.

In addition audio is clearly visible in the screenshots of the board.  Please explain why it was not used and why prior claims were made that audio could not be recorded with direct feed.  As previously explained, MAME audio available at the time was easily distinguishable from arcade audio, so someone using MAME would intentionally avoid including audio."

 

I will attempt to answer your concerns the best I can 1 by 1. Compared to the other videos that were being submitted in those days, I can truly understand based on the quality why it would look Mame like quality. Most all video entries which were done via Classical Arcade systems were done with a camcorder propped up aimed at the CRT. This was due to the difficulty to record an Arcade output any other way. A special Convertor board was used to generate the combined NTSC video signal that a recording device could and would understand the signal. But keep in mind that MAME is an Emulator that will emulate the instructions requested by the ROM of the Game. So the Redrawing Patterns would not be changing in every stage differently. The ROM is the ROM. Does the Score, memory usage and such matter? Maybe or maybe not. It what the ROM demands. But we will get to that soon.
  The Convertor board in the picture does NOT have a framebuffer, That is correct. Since we are dealing with 100% analog outputs and Analog screens, Framebuffers is NOT required. The converter simply combines the multi game board cables (Red,Blue,Green, Grounds, Sync) in the commonly used 1 composite(Yellow RCA Video) NTSC (USA, Japan tv standard) Signal for ease off recording onto a VCR or a capture board of the days.

  This too means NO digital Processing. I have read many MANY peoples post stating that they are not focused on the quality but on how the Game in the Video generates the stage. It is believed the stage is reproduced in a different manner when using different devices. Though the comparison are not Apples to Apples (Different stages, different recording devices, different stages, and even different scores) that we don’t know how the used memories effect the sub routings off the program in the ROM. But this is the biggest argued point. So this is the point I will be focused on to help proof soon. So your questions and Concerns ARE truly appreciated because it helps me know better what many are focused on that needs examining. No digital Processor which is correct. It would NOT cause the redrawing the order off the parts of the frame to change. So I will examine how the unit actually does it in details.

  Thought it was only a few videos, EVERY video which was recorded using the converter is recorded vertically. The simple analog board does NOT have the ability to rotate the signal with the unit used. The game board produced the video game in that manner. EVERY video showing the tapes that were made using that convertor has the TVs turned on its side 90 degrees. From the submission tapes, the high score tape played in King of Kong had the play back TVs turned 90 degrees. Most others was a simple Camcorder aimed to the screen or played with game watcher / refs.

   Now to the Audio. Though the Convertor that was purchased ALSO had circuitry for audio level adjustments and output, The wiring is not as simple as just plugging it in the game board. The game board itself has a whole section just dedicated in producing the sounds INCLUDING a little amplifier circuit to amplify the cabinet speaker. We would have to tap into the motherboard circuit JUST before the audio signal goes into the amplifier stage. Some modification to the motherboard to add low-level audio output jack is really a pain in the rear. Now the video out of the game board goes right into the input port of the monitors signal board. BUT these monitors (Sanyo raster) had two input jacks. You simply connect a ribbon cable on the second connector which was bridged to the first video input by default. So no splicing or dicing off the game board was required to use this converter. The game would run its original monitor and now also had a composite video out from the converter. Because these tapes were made to submit to show play and that score was achieved, the focus on the audio was not a huge factor. The use of the Converter was never intended to be permanent install to the cabinet. Was only for the purpose of recording these games plays at a much better looking quality then what you got from the usual camcorder aimed at a screen for hours. Modification to the actual gaming board was not needed since we weren’t going to pull the low-level outputs out the board. The game board’s audio cable is an amplified out that runs straight to the cabinets speaker. So the Clear submission tapes that were recorded in this manner don’t have audio per this reason.

   The Videos that look like they were produced using mame is understandable because just about every Mame PC of the time had an easy way to output the video put for clear recording. So seeing these Billy tapes looking way better than an average camcorder can raise eyebrows. Since Direct recording from an Arcade machine was just not a normally easy thing to do. But with Mame it can be. I don’t mean to make these replies so long BUT I want to be as clear as I can without toooo much tech gumbo talk. These concerns you have brought up WILL be the focus on showing how they did these recording and with best effort show plus answer these hot topic questions to all in our gaming realm.


"Steve i think the issue here is that due to these pplnot having accounts anywhere thenthe info being relayed isnt really relevant to the issue!
What really needs to happen is that direct questions get answered!

firstly....the 2bits board has sound! why did mr childs say it didnt?
secondly... what is the PC for in mr childs dkjr board swap videos?
thirdly... why can we not see any wires that would link the 2 bits device in these videos?
fourth... only mame draws to the screen how its been shown, no video codec or anything would change this. So please explain, or recreate the scenario if we are to be proven wrong! (in your defence if you chose this option i would record every instance it takes to mirror it with a seperate videocam, to save yourselves from future issues!)

the answers we are getting relayed atm are very detailed, but dont really have anything to do with the actual issue! They are also heaily flawed in the fact mr childs spent 3 paragraphs talking about a chip that ISNT on the two bits device! At some point someone has to open up, because its no longer just billys integrity that is at stake here! theres others being dragged into it! If we are to be proven wrong then it needs to be shown....theres no need for a new movie explanation, theres no need for a live publicity stunt.

actually i have 1 last question for mr childs......why offer $5000 then follow it up with a condition that requires a lawyer? you may aswel of said " im certain but i might be wrong"!  if your 100% certain then youd offer the money regardless!

thats all i have for now!id like to point out that im still neither for or against, i just want the truth! "....

 

Thank you for your concerning questions and I will try to answer them the best I can. I will do my best to answer your questions best I can for you. You first question is out the sound outputs on the converter board. Why do you see sound outputs when Mr.Childs say it didn’t. Well you both are right. The converter board DOES have an audio output level tuning circuit on the converter BUT that portion of the converter was not used. I had another ask the same question and the answer was a bit long, So I’m going to cut&paste the answer I provider here.. “ Now to the Audio. Though the Convertor that was purchased ALSO had circuitry for audio level adjustments and output, The wiring is not as simple as just plugging it in the game board. The game board itself has a whole section just dedicated in producing the sounds INCLUDING a little amplifier circuit to amplify the cabinet speaker. We would have to tap into the motherboard circuit JUST before the audio signal goes into the amplifier stage. Some modification to the motherboard to add low-level audio output jack is really a pain in the rear. Now the video out of the game board goes right into the input port of the monitors signal board. BUT these monitors (Sanyo raster) had two input jacks. You simply connect a ribbon cable on the second connector which was bridged to the first video input by default. So no splicing or dicing off the game board was required to use this converter. The game would run its original monitor and now also had a composite video out from the converter. Because these tapes were made to submit to show play and that score was achieved, the focus on the audio was not a huge factor. The use of the Converter was never intended to be permanent install to the cabinet. Was only for the purpose of recording these games plays at a much better looking quality then what you got from the usual camcorder aimed at a screen for hours. Modification to the actual gaming board was not needed since we weren’t going to pull the low-level outputs out the board. The game board’s audio cable is an amplified out that runs straight to the cabinets speaker. So the Clear submission tapes that were recorded in this manner don’t have audio per this reason.”

    What is the PC in the Swap video. I went back to see that video because I don’t know what PC you were talking about. I do see a PC monitor setup to what I assume is a small station setup. But the PC was not inside the cabinet. I will assume that it was part of the recording rig. I don’t see any evidence in the setup visible in the cabinet that a PC is wired for gaming. The speaker,, video, power supply, coin door and button cables were all connected into the gaming board. But in Full disclosure, I was not at event or location. And the location was knocked down years ago.

   The wire to the converter. Where is it? I am 98% percent that I saw it in the video for a few seconds. But this is because I recognize what this ribbon cable actually looks like. But you are right in the assessment that the camera recording that event do not focus on it. I will guess it was not on purpose, just someone aiming inside and outside off the cabinet.

   Only Mame will draw the images the way it is seen on the recording. This seems to be the underlining of the accusation. For some reason it is believed that the images in the order it was draw can ONLY be produced via MAME, no questions. Thought this comparison isn’t Apples to Apples. Mame is an Emulator that is designed to Mimic the processors on the Arcade board. It will follow the commands and rules set in the instruction codes programmed in the Rom. If The Rom states to draw letters first, Floor Second, and Characters last; The Mame is follow those commands just like the Arcade is designed to follow the commands of the program ROM. But I can understand the concern as direct recording of an arcade play was just norm a norm when everyone else had to use a camcorder aimed to the screen. The difference in quality of the submission tapes CAN and has raised some flags. I am working with others (Handful of techs) to reproduce the setup AND at the same time answer the hottest questions on the subject. We all care about this Realm of Gaming and should want it to be honest. Many including you have brought up superb questions and I am taking it as feedback to come up with the best answers for everyone. But to be clear, the converter will cause quality and refresh changes to video but it would NOT change the order the items are draw on the screen. More answers coming very soon.

    Lastly the offer of the money. Mr.Childs’ was the person who installed that converter and setup that recording method for Mitchell. He knows and is so sure of his setup that he placed his integrity on it. Being a business man and working in the world of the internet, offers like that must ALWAYS be drawn up for the protection of EVERYONE. As many can attempt to scam then demand payment because rules were not clear. But this offer was done early in the beginning of this issue when he and many others NEVER expected it to become as large as it has become in the last few days. Mr.Childs stands by the integrity of the work and that it was all done real and honestly.. He never expected to be questioned over 15+ years later about some recording method he did in the days of VCR and VHS tapes. But we want to get the answers that everyone are now asking out as quick as possible.

 

Carlos Pineiro

 
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Bounty Bob on February 15, 2018, 05:03:15 am
Maximumsteve, thanks for relaying this information. I'm very much looking forward to seeing the outcome of the direct feed recreation from you guys. My question at the moment is this, what is being done to assure the Donkey Kong community that the recreation is an honest one? There is a shadow over this entire situation, so are there going to be representatives from both sides to witness that everything is above board? For example, what is to stop team Billy releasing a MAME tape and claiming that this was the video captured from the recreated direct feed on an original cabinet? And will the video be released if it doesn't support the original tapes being genuine?

Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: qnz on February 15, 2018, 06:52:29 am
todd   ok i admit i was wrong but what about the 8 way joystick he was playing with on his double donkey kong board on that video.  You did not give the whole story from the evidence. Weibe did cheat not the same fraud as bill surely you have to agree to that.  dwayne
Fine, but the point is about how easy it is to convince yourself you "know" something that you really don't.  (I'm using "you" in general here, not meaning you specifically.)

Since you're here, can you clarify what is in this video?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYtJzRcvOzk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYtJzRcvOzk)  The description claims you provided the original material.  Assuming that's true, how did you get the recording off the tape and onto whatever the destination media was?  To me, it looks like a recording of a playback to a CRT screen, which was captured by a camera and then transferred somehow from there.  Is that right?

This video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0ZKEGZpggI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0ZKEGZpggI) is clearly a recording of a playback, as you yourself appear at the start of it showing the tape about to be played.  Do you recall what kind of monitor that was/is?

Thanks,


Todd
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: QAOP Spaceman on February 15, 2018, 07:24:36 am
looks like emu + ridiculous rng + no reliable witnesses = cheating

^ looks like it.

Why so little focus on the rng by the believers?

I know Jojo and bh and possibly others have been noting down the numbers.

Does the ridiculous rng look consistent across all three 3 of the games under discussion?

And, are there any bold, clear statistics that should be obvious red flags to anybody who's not an expert at the game? The fact that only 4 of the first 50 blue smashes (in the game under review at TG) registered as 300s certainly should raise an eyebrow for anyone who's only played DK half a dozen times.

Are there any other startling and easy to digest stats like that knocking about? Or are we just going to be bogged down in rastafarianization and screen artichokes (I think those are the technical terms) and such for ever? 
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: bensweeneyonbass on February 15, 2018, 07:41:36 am
Rastafarianization and screen artichokes are the only things those snakes can't fool us with. This whole magic of "ArrInnGee" is something I don't believe in...

Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Bounty Bob on February 15, 2018, 07:47:22 am
looks like emu + ridiculous rng + no reliable witnesses = cheating

^ looks like it.

Why so little focus on the rng by the believers?

I know Jojo and bh and possibly others have been noting down the numbers.

Does the ridiculous rng look consistent across all three 3 of the games under discussion?

And, are there any bold, clear statistics that should be obvious red flags to anybody who's not an expert at the game? The fact that only 4 of the first 50 blue smashes (in the game under review at TG) registered as 300s certainly should raise an eyebrow for anyone who's only played DK half a dozen times.

Are there any other startling and easy to digest stats like that knocking about? Or are we just going to be bogged down in rastafarianization and screen artichokes (I think those are the technical terms) and such for ever?
The trouble with looking to the rng for proof is that it is literally random. As unlikely and improbable as the outcomes are, they aren't impossible and so it can't be used as proof of cheating on it's own. When combined with everything else though, things start to look more and more suspicious. But for absolute proof we need something which is irrefutable.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Sock Master on February 15, 2018, 07:52:18 am
lots and lots of words

It's funny how the narrative trying to explain away how Billy's games look like MAME keeps changing every time the previous one gets debunked.

Billy cheated.  Billy's defense is cheating too as the current narrative contains my own words in plagiarized form explaining how that board works.  Changing stories and using whatever bits of text they can find online to splice together new stories shows their fundamental lack of understanding about how the hardware actually works.

Their current explanation is that by connecting this device it will somehow magically cause a DK PCB to change the way that it renders frames in such a way that it looks like MAME?

I'll save everyone some time:

No.

I'll be eagerly awaiting the next new story.  I hope it's more inventive than the last one.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: gstrain on February 15, 2018, 08:57:09 am
Mame is an Emulator that is designed to Mimic the processors on the Arcade board. It will follow the commands and rules set in the instruction codes programmed in the Rom. If The Rom states to draw letters first, Floor Second, and Characters last; The Mame is follow those commands just like the Arcade is designed to follow the commands of the program ROM.
The issue at hand is that due to an emulation "defect" in MAME, it does not draw quite the same as Arcade.  We can see those same drawing differences in Billy's tapes. 

He never expected to be questioned over 15+ years later about some recording method he did in the days of VCR and VHS tapes. But we want to get the answers that everyone are now asking out as quick as possible.

The Boomers 1,062,800 score was from July 31st, 2010.  That's less than 8 years ago.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: LMDAVE on February 15, 2018, 08:59:49 am
looks like emu + ridiculous rng + no reliable witnesses = cheating


Why so little focus on the rng by the believers?

I know Jojo and bh and possibly others have been noting down the numbers.

Does the ridiculous rng look consistent across all three 3 of the games under discussion?

And, are there any bold, clear statistics that should be obvious red flags to anybody who's not an expert at the game? The fact that only 4 of the first 50 blue smashes (in the game under review at TG) registered as 300s certainly should raise an eyebrow for anyone who's only played DK half a dozen times.

Are there any other startling and easy to digest stats like that knocking about? Or are we just going to be bogged down in rastafarianization and screen artichokes (I think those are the technical terms) and such for ever?

Let me start this by saying I'm not flip-flopping on my stance of Billy tapes are suspect, but I do want to give my own fair analysis of the RNG from what I've read.

I would have liked to have seen the RNG issue broken down a little more. I kept getting confused about the 4 out of 50 blue smashes being 300, but then seen it was clarified as being  the first 50 "blue barrels", so that even discount the fireballs and only focuses on blue barrels. Still...4 is a lot less than the statistical 12.5 out 50 one would expect from even 25/50/25 distribution.

I looked at Wes' chart about the 1,050,200 game. I would have like to have seen the average value of the blue smashes per board type instead of lumped in the end. Because Billy had much high blue hits on conveyors and rivets than average, and that could be contributed to never taking the "Free Ride" on conveyors, and averaging 3 hit per hammer on rivets (a nice outcome of course).

I've been playing this game pretty regular over the last 10 or so years and consider myself one of the more advanced players. So, I can give basic analysis without even breaking down the statistical averages, I just kind of know what to expect at this point of playing Donkey Kong. And that is, blue hits on barrels tend to be pretty normal 25/50/25, conveyors always tend to yield more 500/800's (that's why getting the hammer on conveyors every time is not a bad move), and on rivets you tend to get way more 300's. And that's just my observations from playing the game and not dissecting code.

One big thing from Wes' chart was the percentage of final score from blue smashes, 17.1% for Billy is rather high, but that could be contributed to lack of barrel grouping. The scores we are seeing now over the last 3 or 4 years are being pushed up due to "grinding it out" with barrel grouping, so it would make sense that other player's percentage of total game from blue smashes wouldn't be as high. (LOL...I wouldn't be surprised if Wes or Robbie could pull off a 1.1M game with single hammer if either of your are looking for a new challenge)

Overall, the average blue smash for Billy of 491 is only 5 pts more than Wes' 486, and could be contributed to lining up more hits on conveyors and not taking a free ride. If there's another thread breaking down the numbers more I would like to see that one.

Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: xelnia on February 15, 2018, 01:18:47 pm
looks like emu + ridiculous rng + no reliable witnesses = cheating


Why so little focus on the rng by the believers?

I know Jojo and bh and possibly others have been noting down the numbers.

Does the ridiculous rng look consistent across all three 3 of the games under discussion?

And, are there any bold, clear statistics that should be obvious red flags to anybody who's not an expert at the game? The fact that only 4 of the first 50 blue smashes (in the game under review at TG) registered as 300s certainly should raise an eyebrow for anyone who's only played DK half a dozen times.

Are there any other startling and easy to digest stats like that knocking about? Or are we just going to be bogged down in rastafarianization and screen artichokes (I think those are the technical terms) and such for ever?

Let me start this by saying I'm not flip-flopping on my stance of Billy tapes are suspect, but I do want to give my own fair analysis of the RNG from what I've read.

I would have liked to have seen the RNG issue broken down a little more. I kept getting confused about the 4 out of 50 blue smashes being 300, but then seen it was clarified as being  the first 50 "blue barrels", so that even discount the fireballs and only focuses on blue barrels. Still...4 is a lot less than the statistical 12.5 out 50 one would expect from even 25/50/25 distribution.

I looked at Wes' chart about the 1,050,200 game. I would have like to have seen the average value of the blue smashes per board type instead of lumped in the end. Because Billy had much high blue hits on conveyors and rivets than average, and that could be contributed to never taking the "Free Ride" on conveyors, and averaging 3 hit per hammer on rivets (a nice outcome of course).

I've been playing this game pretty regular over the last 10 or so years and consider myself one of the more advanced players. So, I can give basic analysis without even breaking down the statistical averages, I just kind of know what to expect at this point of playing Donkey Kong. And that is, blue hits on barrels tend to be pretty normal 25/50/25, conveyors always tend to yield more 500/800's (that's why getting the hammer on conveyors every time is not a bad move), and on rivets you tend to get way more 300's. And that's just my observations from playing the game and not dissecting code.

One big thing from Wes' chart was the percentage of final score from blue smashes, 17.1% for Billy is rather high, but that could be contributed to lack of barrel grouping. The scores we are seeing now over the last 3 or 4 years are being pushed up due to "grinding it out" with barrel grouping, so it would make sense that other player's percentage of total game from blue smashes wouldn't be as high. (LOL...I wouldn't be surprised if Wes or Robbie could pull off a 1.1M game with single hammer if either of your are looking for a new challenge)

Overall, the average blue smash for Billy of 491 is only 5 pts more than Wes' 486, and could be contributed to lining up more hits on conveyors and not taking a free ride. If there's another thread breaking down the numbers more I would like to see that one.

I haven't delved too deep into the 1.05M game yet, but a further analysis of the 1.047M game shows nothing out of the ordinary in terms of variable smash RNG. Analyzing that tape was difficult and I think there was a bit of a rush to judgment before it could be independently verified by multiple people. You can see my breakdown here: https://goo.gl/4BY7gW

Note that I only transcribed variable smashes (blue barrels, pies, fireballs)...no other considerations are made regarding RNG or scoring. Pies are tricky to analyze outside of MAME because the scoring bug that forces some of them to always be 300.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Sqrlmonger on February 15, 2018, 01:27:23 pm
looks like emu + ridiculous rng + no reliable witnesses = cheating


Why so little focus on the rng by the believers?

I know Jojo and bh and possibly others have been noting down the numbers.

Does the ridiculous rng look consistent across all three 3 of the games under discussion?

And, are there any bold, clear statistics that should be obvious red flags to anybody who's not an expert at the game? The fact that only 4 of the first 50 blue smashes (in the game under review at TG) registered as 300s certainly should raise an eyebrow for anyone who's only played DK half a dozen times.

Are there any other startling and easy to digest stats like that knocking about? Or are we just going to be bogged down in rastafarianization and screen artichokes (I think those are the technical terms) and such for ever?

Let me start this by saying I'm not flip-flopping on my stance of Billy tapes are suspect, but I do want to give my own fair analysis of the RNG from what I've read.

I would have liked to have seen the RNG issue broken down a little more. I kept getting confused about the 4 out of 50 blue smashes being 300, but then seen it was clarified as being  the first 50 "blue barrels", so that even discount the fireballs and only focuses on blue barrels. Still...4 is a lot less than the statistical 12.5 out 50 one would expect from even 25/50/25 distribution.

I looked at Wes' chart about the 1,050,200 game. I would have like to have seen the average value of the blue smashes per board type instead of lumped in the end. Because Billy had much high blue hits on conveyors and rivets than average, and that could be contributed to never taking the "Free Ride" on conveyors, and averaging 3 hit per hammer on rivets (a nice outcome of course).

I've been playing this game pretty regular over the last 10 or so years and consider myself one of the more advanced players. So, I can give basic analysis without even breaking down the statistical averages, I just kind of know what to expect at this point of playing Donkey Kong. And that is, blue hits on barrels tend to be pretty normal 25/50/25, conveyors always tend to yield more 500/800's (that's why getting the hammer on conveyors every time is not a bad move), and on rivets you tend to get way more 300's. And that's just my observations from playing the game and not dissecting code.

One big thing from Wes' chart was the percentage of final score from blue smashes, 17.1% for Billy is rather high, but that could be contributed to lack of barrel grouping. The scores we are seeing now over the last 3 or 4 years are being pushed up due to "grinding it out" with barrel grouping, so it would make sense that other player's percentage of total game from blue smashes wouldn't be as high. (LOL...I wouldn't be surprised if Wes or Robbie could pull off a 1.1M game with single hammer if either of your are looking for a new challenge)

Overall, the average blue smash for Billy of 491 is only 5 pts more than Wes' 486, and could be contributed to lining up more hits on conveyors and not taking a free ride. If there's another thread breaking down the numbers more I would like to see that one.

Good info, and I think we do need a very detailed breakdown as well.

The thing is that without a thorough breakdown of this by board/type I'm concerned we are open to even more uncertainty.

If specific categories of RNG are in line with other players while other specific categories of RNG are high then it would indicate cheating to me as true RNG should show us that these categories where high variance was achieved would change from board to board and game to game where as MAME splicing games together would allow for a human who is focused on specific RNG elements to create those high variances within the specific categories they are focused on.

But as you point out the category grouping also allows us ( and by us I mean those who actually understand the strategy to a serious level, which is certainly not me) to assess whether strategic choices made during the performance could explain some of the variance.

I think if we break it down we will either see randomness in the RNG upswings as it moves from category to category across boards and games which would be indicative of non-cheated games or we will see even higher variance (it would have to be higher to be visible when clumped with all categories) for specific boards across multiple games and that, to me, would be strong evidence of cheating.

On that point I do want to state that this idea that RNG is not "proof" is just not a serious position to me.  It has to cross certain thresholds certainly, for instance RNG that is 1 in 1000 runs is not proof, but if you show me 1 in 1000 RNG or better occurring on every barrel board across three runs we aren't talking about 1 in 1000 anymore, we are talking about rock solid evidence because we are talking about 1 in 1x10^189 - we are talking about odds so ridiculous that every single one of the 7 billion humans on earth could have been playing DK from the big bang until now with each game taking 3 hours and we still will only have completed 2.86x10^23 games.  If you even understand the math on this a little bit you know how completely and utterly ridiculous this notion is.  Even a single game with 1 in 1000 on just the barrel boards and no other anomalies would be 1x10^63.  Again, my point here is not that this evidence has already been produced but that if it were then we would be talking about smoking guns in my view.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: colecomeister on February 15, 2018, 01:44:59 pm
Maximumsteve - as an addendum to Robert Childs' video analysis, and the extensive commentary he offered on the set-up, I wondered if he could provide analysis or comment on something also familiar to him - two of the three videos he uploaded back in August 2010 in order to document Billy's back-to-back high scores at Boomers on July 31, 2010. He has never weighed in on questions posed about them.

In Robert's "Billy Mitchell speaks (july,2010) moments after breaking donkey kong record" video, Billy's machine has DK Junior installed, not Donkey Kong. This poses obvious problems about DK play.

- fast forward to 2:00 mark - DK Junior visible at 2:02 (frame advance)

Is Robert able to re-upload the original version of the "After DK record Billy Mitchell goes for donkey kong junior record" video? - for unknown reasons, Robert dubbed over the copy with classical music, and the viewer can't hear what Robert is describing about the cabinet (direct feed?) set-up for Billy's high score run.

Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: LMDAVE on February 15, 2018, 03:04:37 pm

I haven't delved too deep into the 1.05M game yet, but a further analysis of the 1.047M game shows nothing out of the ordinary in terms of variable smash RNG. Analyzing that tape was difficult and I think there was a bit of a rush to judgment before it could be independently verified by multiple people. You can see my breakdown here: https://goo.gl/4BY7gW

Note that I only transcribed variable smashes (blue barrels, pies, fireballs)...no other considerations are made regarding RNG or scoring. Pies are tricky to analyze outside of MAME because the scoring bug that forces some of them to always be 300.

Thanks. I was wondering if you every did a "memorable game" chart on either of those games. But looking at your spread sheet I guess my gut feel that more 500/800 on pies is not correct at all. Just seems that way sometimes.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: bh on February 15, 2018, 03:06:50 pm

I haven't delved too deep into the 1.05M game yet, but a further analysis of the 1.047M game shows nothing out of the ordinary in terms of variable smash RNG. Analyzing that tape was difficult and I think there was a bit of a rush to judgment before it could be independently verified by multiple people. You can see my breakdown here: https://goo.gl/4BY7gW

Note that I only transcribed variable smashes (blue barrels, pies, fireballs)...no other considerations are made regarding RNG or scoring. Pies are tricky to analyze outside of MAME because the scoring bug that forces some of them to always be 300.

Thanks. I was wondering if you every did a "memorable game" chart on either of those games. But looking at your spread sheet I guess my gut feel that more 500/800 on pies is not correct at all. Just seems that way sometimes.

The 1.04m game is really tough to transcribe. There are serious color errors and tons of blur. Jeremy found four barrels that I missed which make the run good but unexceptional. I have a lot more confidence in the 1.05m game. The tape is clearer and color better.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Kewydee_17 on February 15, 2018, 06:56:08 pm

After literally acres of word salad, Jry's evidence still hasn't been disproved

I'm sure at some point there was a direct capture from an DK pcb set up.

Thing is, the direct feed from a DK pcb was NOT used to make those scores. MAME was used. The evidence is clearly there for all to see.

There is not the slightest chance of making a direct feed video from an DK pcb look like MAME in a frame by frame analysis.

Which is why we haven't seen such a video. And we won't.

Loyalty to ones friends is all well and good, but it's getting to ridiculous levels with the mental gymnastics used to NOT SEE the evidence for what it is.

Those who have chosen not to see will never be swayed by evidence. "Your hair is on fire mate", "No it is not, it's just a bit warm today"

Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: dwayne on February 15, 2018, 07:59:17 pm
the tapes i was asked to put up were recorded off a sanyo tv.  I am not technically inclined.  I dont have the capacity to capture the video in a transfer to a computer. i used a canon camera that i have  vixia hv 30 to record to upload a file to youtube.

Im really a luddite. 

dwayne
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: qnz on February 15, 2018, 10:38:26 pm
Hi,

I tried to post this over on twingalaxies, but my ancient account can't post there for some reason.

(...)

I'm trying to piece your post together here and understand it. 
(...)
I won't delve further into your comment for the time being because of these timing issues, but if you can clean up or clarify your concerns in light of this information perhaps a more substantive discussion could be had.  Alternatively, let me know if I made a mistake in my understanding of what you were saying.

I wrote up a long, detailed reply to this explaining the part where I was quoting Jace.  After looking at it in preview, I think it's probably longer than anyone wants to read.  I have it saved, so if you really want to see it, let me know.

Unfortunately, it's getting too late here   Can someone summarize what the RNG argument is?  I.e., Here's the raw data, here's the processed data, this is what we think it shows and why?


Todd

p.s. I see Dwayne has answered my question about the videos.  Thank you, Dwayne.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: YesAffinity on February 16, 2018, 12:38:51 pm
Short summary of the RNG arguement:

The number of blue barrels smashes is extremely high, well outside of the mean.  If someone were playing level by level in MAME and using the save state feature to ensure a particular pace, a possible result of that would be a higher frequency of blue barrels assuring that pace, possibly unbeknownst to the player.

In simpler terms, if you are using the save state approach to get to a certain score, and you complete a level but it's not quite at the pace needed at the end of the level, you go back to your save state at the start of the level and re-perform.  Once you get the pace needed at the end of the board, you save state and go to the next board.  Barrel levels offer more potential to "tweak" the pace, either through steering mayhem or through blue barrels (or both).  Steering introduces greater risk.  Getting better RNG resulting in a greater number of blue barrels does not.  The higher blue barrel numbers on Billy's performance (percentage of total points, total number of blue barrels) potentially correlates to MAME/save state usage.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Sqrlmonger on February 17, 2018, 04:12:13 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=234Y76_3YPE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=234Y76_3YPE)

This video has some issues, but there are some things that are new and quite a bit of it is true.

First, I want to point out the opening quote from Billy in that video actually continues on to say something like "but even worse still, would be to deny someone a legitimate score."  - No real bearing, just some context I found amusing.

Second, the video presents a case that the one game that does have audio out of the three being disputed still on TG shows signs of splicing.  I am not qualified to say if the things he points out are, in fact, proof of that.  Can anyone here take a look at the relevant section of the video (starting at 4:09 and going for about 10 seconds) and offer a more informed opinion on this audio evidence?

To be clear I am not suggesting you can render a verdict on the entire tape from what he shows, but does the video's assertion hold any water based on what is presented?
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Raven on February 17, 2018, 12:18:51 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=234Y76_3YPE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=234Y76_3YPE)

This video has some issues, but there are some things that are new and quite a bit of it is true.

First, I want to point out the opening quote from Billy in that video actually continues on to say something like "but even worse still, would be to deny someone a legitimate score."  - No real bearing, just some context I found amusing.

Second, the video presents a case that the one game that does have audio out of the three being disputed still on TG shows signs of splicing.  I am not qualified to say if the things he points out are, in fact, proof of that.  Can anyone here take a look at the relevant section of the video (starting at 4:09 and going for about 10 seconds) and offer a more informed opinion on this audio evidence?

To be clear I am not suggesting you can render a verdict on the entire tape from what he shows, but does the video's assertion hold any water based on what is presented?

The Billy Mitchell 1,050,200 score video does appear to have been spliced, in addition to containing distinct MAME characteristics. To confirm the sound anomalies reported by Apollo Legend, I exported the audio from the video to an mp3 file, then used Audacity to create an audio spectrogram. Note the gap followed by an overlap, which is indicative of a splice point.

(https://i.imgur.com/A77qEPh.png)

Afterwards, I performed a frame by frame analysis of the same portion of the video, where a very interesting sequence of events took place when the score reached 747,400. The stacked monkeys screen appeared, followed by the rivet screen, then the barrel screen, then the stacked monkeys screen, and finally the rivet screen. The entire sequence of events took place in the span of roughly 8 seconds, and the score remained 747,400 on each of the screens.


(https://i.imgur.com/F9mSqAl.png)(https://i.imgur.com/V4Z5M2q.png)(https://i.imgur.com/nEMajeO.png)(https://i.imgur.com/bmAdusW.png)(https://i.imgur.com/g9bLtoM.png)

The Billy Mitchell 1,050,200 score video is linked below, starting at the point where the anomalies begin to take place.

https://youtu.be/qfk0WxlSqpo?t=6762 (https://youtu.be/qfk0WxlSqpo?t=6762)

DISCLAIMER: I'm just a casual home gamer who is neither for or against Billy Mitchell. In fact, I had never heard of Billy Mitchell or Twin Galaxies until roughly two weeks ago when the story first appeared in my news feed. Being one who can't resist a good mystery, I decided to follow this story as it develops and quietly do my own investigation to see what clues might turn up. Needless to say, the sheer volume of evidence is quite compelling, but it's not my place to pass judgment on anyone.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Scoundrl on February 17, 2018, 01:00:11 pm
 <gasp>
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: QAOP Spaceman on February 17, 2018, 02:29:16 pm
Good heavens  <gasp>
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: LMDAVE on February 17, 2018, 02:33:31 pm
Wow great catch...not sure how that was missed.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Bounty Bob on February 17, 2018, 02:42:37 pm
Wow great catch...not sure how that was missed.
That's what I was wondering!  <gasp>
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: LMDAVE on February 17, 2018, 02:50:37 pm
I guess the actual tape will have to show this, couldnt this be just from digitizing it for you tube and there was a size limitation and that’s where the split was?. If tbe actual tape shows this then thats pretty clear.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Bounty Bob on February 17, 2018, 03:01:56 pm
Is this just some sloppy edit made after it was imported to a PC? Maybe it had to be imported as separate files for some reason? The rivet screen we see briefly seems to be the same one we see next, a firefox appears in the same place at the same time and if you step frame by frame it appears facing left, then faces right for a frame, then looks back left and goes up the ladder at the same point. Even when Mario appears the P from the flashing 1 up at the top is the same, with just that letter visible.

I'm not saying Billy is innocent but in this example it just seems odd that everything seems to start the exact same way on that board. But obviously this anomaly would be enough to invalidate the score if this video was the only evidence. Wonder if the original tape has this same anomaly?
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Bounty Bob on February 17, 2018, 03:02:46 pm
I guess the actual tape will have to show this, couldnt this be just from digitizing it for you tube and there was a size limitation and that’s where the split was?. If tbe actual tape shows this then thats pretty clear.
You posted while I was typing up the same thought.  :)
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: jdllama on February 17, 2018, 03:43:22 pm
Been watching this from Discord, but had to point out that that vid was uploaded in 2017; however, this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0ZKEGZpggI&feature=youtu.be&t=1h53m15s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0ZKEGZpggI&feature=youtu.be&t=1h53m15s) was in 2016, and should start at the right time and does not have that particular video issue that Raven found.

EDIT: I'm not trying to be anonymous, I just don't want to log back in to Twin Galaxies. Call it a conscious effort. No worries about my name being bandied about and such.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: JCHarrist on February 17, 2018, 03:45:40 pm
Been watching this from Discord, but had to point out that that vid was uploaded in 2017; however, this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0ZKEGZpggI&feature=youtu.be&t=1h53m15s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0ZKEGZpggI&feature=youtu.be&t=1h53m15s) was in 2016, and should start at the right time and does not have that particular video issue that Raven found.

Correct. The anomaly is an overlap that happened during the duplication process. It's not a splice.


Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: SHLONKY on February 17, 2018, 04:09:33 pm
it seems TG have some of billys original tapes now so hopefully we can get to the end of some of this!
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Snazzavich on February 17, 2018, 07:33:58 pm
Sorry if I made the RNG case seem stronger than it was, that was just the impression I got from reading about the transcriptions. Still I think there's more than enough evidence even without that element, not to mention a conspicuous lack of evidence of the existence of a real run.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: SHLONKY on February 17, 2018, 08:01:24 pm
apparently walter has made a comment saying some engineers have discovered billys innocence and details will appear in a few days. The comments are on page 127 on TG.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Raven on February 17, 2018, 08:24:56 pm
The anomaly is an overlap that happened during the duplication process. It's not a splice.

If the anomalies were the result of a duplication process, one would expect to see a different score on at least one of the adjacent screens. In this case, the score remained 747,400 on each of them. Why?

(https://i.imgur.com/F9mSqAl.png)(https://i.imgur.com/V4Z5M2q.png)(https://i.imgur.com/nEMajeO.png)(https://i.imgur.com/bmAdusW.png)(https://i.imgur.com/g9bLtoM.png)

Given the fact that VHS tapes had a finite amount of recording time, I expect to see occasional splices in digitized footage, where the splice points generally have identical overlapping frame sequences. For example, one might see frames A, B, C, D followed by B, C, D, E where B, C, D are the overlapping frames. One might also see gaps if the footage is not perfectly aligned. However, one should never see multiple adjacent screens with identical scores.

Since additional Billy Mitchell 1,050,200 score video footage exists from different sources, it could mean that the anomalies were found and corrected at some point in time. Without additional information, it's impossible to know for sure.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: LMDAVE on February 17, 2018, 08:42:21 pm
Well the 747,400 was at the end of the barrel board, the stacked Kong’s next, then rivers start with same score of course. it then backed up to the end of the barrel board again. No reason the score would change. It did look pretty crazy at first but it’s already been shown the original record didn’t have it.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: syscrusher on February 17, 2018, 09:57:19 pm
When I got the tape in Jan. '08, I had the VHS recording transferred to DVD, but it spanned over 2 discs.  It's possible the anomaly happened at the end of disc 1/beginning of disc 2 if this was uploaded from those discs.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Raven on February 17, 2018, 10:26:45 pm
Well the 747,400 was at the end of the barrel board, the stacked Kong’s next, then rivers start with same score of course. it then backed up to the end of the barrel board again. No reason the score would change. It did look pretty crazy at first but it’s already been shown the original record didn’t have it.

This is a plausible explanation. I went back and checked again, except this time I expanded the scope of my frame by frame video analysis to include several seconds on either end of the segment in question. Just before the barrel screen ends, the score changes from 744,200 to 747,400 (score + bonus), and the details appear to be consistent with a "glitch" rather than an intentional splice.

The questionable Billy Mitchell 1,050,200 score video is linked below, starting at a point just before the anomalies begin to take place. Specifically, the point where Kong begins to climb the ladder, to provide a basis for comparison.

http://youtu.be/qfk0WxlSqpo?t=6758 (http://youtu.be/qfk0WxlSqpo?t=6758)

A comparable Billy Mitchell 1,050,200 score video is linked below, starting at roughly the same point in time.

http://youtu.be/Y0ZKEGZpggI?t=6794 (http://youtu.be/Y0ZKEGZpggI?t=6794)

Regardless, this does not explain the distinct MAME characteristics present in both videos.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Bounty Bob on February 18, 2018, 03:10:42 am
The anomaly is an overlap that happened during the duplication process. It's not a splice.

If the anomalies were the result of a duplication process, one would expect to see a different score on at least one of the adjacent screens. In this case, the score remained 747,400 on each of them. Why?
We're seeing the same bit of the game twice, with no scoring done, why would the score change?
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: jdllama on February 18, 2018, 07:45:55 am
Again, hopping in (and again, I'm alright with not being anonymous, just didn't want to post to TG directly LOL), I can confirm that those Facebook messages to Walter are real that were mentioned on TG; I reached out to him to verify.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: M.Schrock on February 18, 2018, 10:40:47 am
Billy Mitchell always has a plan!  <Billy>
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Raven on February 19, 2018, 12:58:20 pm
I've been closely examining the infamous Boomer's board swap video where the Donkey Kong and Donkey Kong Junor records were supposedly broken on the same day. It's the video where Billy Mitchell allegedly scored 1,062,800 points on Donkey Kong, roughly a week before his announcement at the Big Bang Video Game Hall of Fame event in Ottumwa, IA.

The overall quality of the video is very poor, and despite numerous claims that the same Donkey Kong Junior board was removed then reinstalled in the arcade cabinet, I was not entirely convinced. However, the fact that they never actually showed the two boards at the same time seemed suspicious, and the things they said struck me as being very odd. It's as if they went out of their way to provide much more information than was necessary, plus the entire "performance" felt contrived. With this in mind, I decided to see if the video could be cleaned up and/or enhanced to reveal more information.

As it turns out, the video contains much more information than meets the eye. In fact, it contains irrefutable evidence, if one knows what to look for. I would post the enhanced video to the Twin Galaxies dispute thread, but I absolutely will not compromise my identity to become "verified" just so I can post evidence to a forum which has a questionable history.

Regardless, this appears to be crucial evidence that people should see for themselves, so I'm open to suggestions, as long as it's not Youtube or Facebook because they tend to mangle videos. I also prefer that this information be public.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: QAOP Spaceman on February 19, 2018, 01:09:23 pm
Regardless, this appears to be crucial evidence that people should see for themselves, so I'm open to suggestions, as long as it's not Youtube or Facebook because they tend to mangle videos. I also prefer that this information be public.

All very dramatic.

Assuming you're not taking the piss, what's stopping you from revealing this 'crucial evidence'? The video is available for anyone to see, and thanks to King Jammy the Wise, to hear again.

And are you sure this hasn't been mentioned before? The boardswap video has been known about for years.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: xelnia on February 19, 2018, 01:10:41 pm
Regardless, this appears to be crucial evidence that people should see for themselves, so I'm open to suggestions, as long as it's not Youtube or Facebook because they tend to mangle videos. I also prefer that this information be public.

Well, a good place to start would be to just tell everyone what you found. If it can found in the video, it can be independently verified by others.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Bounty Bob on February 19, 2018, 01:23:47 pm
I've been closely examining the infamous Boomer's board swap video where the Donkey Kong and Donkey Kong Junor records were supposedly broken on the same day. It's the video where Billy Mitchell allegedly scored 1,062,800 points on Donkey Kong, roughly a week before his announcement at the Big Bang Video Game Hall of Fame event in Ottumwa, IA.

The overall quality of the video is very poor, and despite numerous claims that the same Donkey Kong Junior board was removed then reinstalled in the arcade cabinet, I was not entirely convinced. However, the fact that they never actually showed the two boards at the same time seemed suspicious, and the things they said struck me as being very odd. It's as if they went out of their way to provide much more information than was necessary, plus the entire "performance" felt contrived. With this in mind, I decided to see if the video could be cleaned up and/or enhanced to reveal more information.

As it turns out, the video contains much more information than meets the eye. In fact, it contains irrefutable evidence, if one knows what to look for. I would post the enhanced video to the Twin Galaxies dispute thread, but I absolutely will not compromise my identity to become "verified" just so I can post evidence to a forum which has a questionable history.

Regardless, this appears to be crucial evidence that people should see for themselves, so I'm open to suggestions, as long as it's not Youtube or Facebook because they tend to mangle videos. I also prefer that this information be public.
I'll happily post to Twin Galaxies and won't mention any names. There is no identity compromise you just need to call a number from your given phone number and get a pin code to enter. You can have a fake name, address etc if you want. It's basically just to confirm that you're a real person. They'll have one of your phone numbers and that's about it.

But like I say, I can post there for you, so long as I am happy with the evidence provided anyway! Upload the video on wetransfer.com and pm me the link. Unless the video is more than 2GB, then we can come up with a different plan.

I just want the truth out there and the matter settled, however that pans out.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Raven on February 19, 2018, 01:32:17 pm
Well, a good place to start would be to just tell everyone what you found. If it can found in the video, it can be independently verified by others.

It's no secret that there are certain visual differences between Donkey Kong and Donkey Kong Junior boards, but the poor quality of the source video makes it difficult to see the details necessary to make a conclusive determination. The enhancements helped to make the details much more clear.

I stopped short of stating my findings because people should see for themselves, then make up their own minds.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Barra on February 19, 2018, 01:45:55 pm
If evidence is claimed but no one exposes it, does it even exist
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Weehawk on February 19, 2018, 02:02:22 pm
I'm open to suggestions, as long as it's not Youtube or Facebook because they tend to mangle videos. I also prefer that this information be public.

1) Upload it to mega.nz.

2) post the link



Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Raven on February 19, 2018, 02:04:57 pm
I can post there for you, so long as I am happy with the evidence provided anyway! Upload the video on wetransfer.com and pm me the link. Unless the video is more than 2GB, then we can come up with a different plan.

I just want the truth out there and the matter settled, however that pans out.

Fortunately, the video is just under ten minutes long, and despite my enhancements, the size isn't too bad. I normally work with much larger HD video files, so this one is tiny by comparison. The video file is uploading now, and I will PM you the link when it's complete.

There are two parts to the enhanced video, where the first part is "normal" and the second part is "inverted", plus I added a timecode (HH:MM:SS:FF) overlay to the upper right corner of the video for reference. The video appears grainy due to the processes used to make the lighting more consistent, plus it was sharpened slightly to bring out more detail.

Here is an image to help visualize the major differences to look for in the enhanced video. I snagged it from the video Apollo Legend made, adding numbered identifiers for reference.

(https://i.imgur.com/ijdheZZ.jpg)

By the way, for those who think I'm simply trying to be "dramatic", the word I prefer to use is objective.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Raven on February 19, 2018, 02:16:57 pm
Upload the video on wetransfer.com and pm me the link.

I sent you the link, let me know if you are able to download the video. If not, I will try again. Also, when posting to Twin Galaxies, you can copy and paste my posts about the video in a quote if you wish. Don't forget to include the image posted above, so people will know what to look for.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Raven on February 19, 2018, 02:31:23 pm
I'm open to suggestions, as long as it's not Youtube or Facebook because they tend to mangle videos. I also prefer that this information be public.

1) Upload it to mega.nz.

2) post the link

I used the previously suggested file sharing website. Here is the download link, just in case it never gets posted to Twin Galaxies. Judge for yourselves.

https://we.tl/ZqTg4UAY01
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: danman123456 on February 19, 2018, 03:11:25 pm
I watched the video and it looks like the exact same board taken out and put back in. Is that what your trying to show?
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Sqrlmonger on February 19, 2018, 03:28:12 pm
I'm open to suggestions, as long as it's not Youtube or Facebook because they tend to mangle videos. I also prefer that this information be public.

1) Upload it to mega.nz.

2) post the link

I used the previously suggested file sharing website. Here is the download link, just in case it never gets posted to Twin Galaxies. Judge for yourselves.

https://we.tl/ZqTg4UAY01

I appreciate the effort but I hope you can also appreciate that if you wish for this to be taken as objective evidence that you will need to document, in detail, what you have done to the video to "enhance" it.

edit: PS - I will say I thought the original video was blatantly a DK Jr to DK Jr board swap and I see the exact same thing in the "enhanced" video.  Not trying to take anything from your efforts, but if the conclusion is the same, I'm unclear as to what we gain.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Raven on February 19, 2018, 03:31:18 pm
I watched the video and it looks like the exact same board taken out and put back in. Is that what your trying to show?

Indeed, it certainly looks that way to me, but I wanted to give people a chance to make up their own minds.

The truth of the matter is (I've been dying to say that), I am now 100% convinced that the before and after boards are the same exact Donkey Kong Junior board being removed and reinstalled. To be absolutely certain, I've watched the video countless times, often at variable speeds using a back and forth technique called video scrubbing, and frame by frame.

In my mind, this single act of intentional deception leaves no room for doubt about the motive.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Raven on February 19, 2018, 03:42:02 pm
I appreciate the effort but I hope you can also appreciate that if you wish for this to be taken as objective evidence that you will need to document, in detail, what you have done to the video to "enhance" it.

I used Adobe Premiere Pro with a sharpen filter (set to 10) and a shadow highlight filter (highlight 0, shadow 50). In addition to the timecode overlay and a simple invert filter on the second video segment. It's nothing fancy, and frankly I'm surprised that it was not done before now. If need be, I can provide a screenshot of the precise settings used, but I think that would be overkill. Anyone with basic video editing skills can replicate the process, provided they have the required software.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: johnbart on February 19, 2018, 03:46:18 pm
It's very clear to see #4 and #5 areas in the original video even without the post processing to be from DK jr board both before and after the "swap".
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: xelnia on February 19, 2018, 03:49:01 pm
I appreciate the effort but I hope you can also appreciate that if you wish for this to be taken as objective evidence that you will need to document, in detail, what you have done to the video to "enhance" it.

I used Adobe Premiere Pro with a sharpen filter (set to 10) and a shadow highlight filter (highlight 0, shadow 50). In addition to the timecode overlay and a simple invert filter on the second video segment. It's nothing fancy, and frankly I'm surprised that it was not done before now. If need be, I can provide a screenshot of the precise settings used, but I think that would be overkill. Anyone with basic video editing skills can replicate the process, provided they have the required software.

I'm not sure if anyone has gone into that much detail (filtering the video), but the fact that a DKJR board is swapped for a DKJR board has been established for quite some time (and was part of the initial set of posts in the TG dispute thread).

What I'd really like to know, and maybe your processing of the video will help, is what's on that laptop screen. :)
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Raven on February 19, 2018, 03:50:31 pm
It's very clear to see #4 and #5 areas in the original video even without the post processing to be from DK jr board both before and after the "swap".

It was not entirely clear to me, but now it is. I had to be certain, and others may feel the same way.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Raven on February 19, 2018, 03:56:22 pm
I'm not sure if anyone has gone into that much detail (filtering the video), but the fact that a DKJR board is swapped for a DKJR board has been established for quite some time (and was part of the initial set of posts in the TG dispute thread).

What I'd really like to know, and maybe your processing of the video will help, is what's on that laptop screen. :)

It's funny that you mentioned it because I've been wondering about that too. To me, it looks like some kind of webcam or video window on the right, with a partially obscured picture of a circuit board on the left. I've tried various methods to make it more clear, but without much success.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Mary McManus on February 19, 2018, 04:04:08 pm
The PCB being pulled out of the game is lacking the volume control pot where it would normally located on a DK 2 board upright. From that observation its clearly a DKJR PCB.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Raven on February 19, 2018, 04:04:50 pm
Something just hit me about that video and I want each of you to watch it now and tell me if I'm wrong. First, is the audio is synced up with video? It seems it is when Billy is talking about the board swap.

When Billy goes to start his DK Jr. game at the end on the video, the credit is in the machine and he talks a little about his tie then hits play. LISTEN REALLY CLOSE. The game starts THEN you here his hand hit the start button milliseconds after.

Now if that's just audio lag, there isn't lag when they are talking about the board swap.

I was once wondered that what if video was ran into the monitor and Billy was in front the machine simulating the game play. What is that blue box next to the PC with the wires coming out.

I checked for audio sync issues and everything seemed to be ok, but I only listened and watched to be certain that words matched lip movements.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: LMDAVE on February 19, 2018, 04:20:32 pm
Well if the audio is I fact sync, then the start button press after game starts is weird.

EDIT: Scratch that. I just checked the original video, sync is fine, something must have happened in your enhancement video that push the sync off at the end. Button syncs up in original video.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: SHLONKY on February 19, 2018, 04:32:27 pm
I'm not sure if anyone has gone into that much detail (filtering the video), but the fact that a DKJR board is swapped for a DKJR board has been established for quite some time (and was part of the initial set of posts in the TG dispute thread).

What I'd really like to know, and maybe your processing of the video will help, is what's on that laptop screen. :)

It's funny that you mentioned it because I've been wondering about that too. To me, it looks like some kind of webcam or video window on the right, with a partially obscured picture of a circuit board on the left. I've tried various methods to make it more clear, but without much success.

thanks for the video, its possible enhancements may helpidentify some things, but the board swap being the same board was 100% a long time ago.

as for the pc, the screen at first looked like early versions of Windows Movie Maker, but theni noticed theres a second blockon the left that seems to display an image. At first i started looking at mame builds, certain Mame32 builds look similar in layout, but i only found ones showing a filetree on the left and not an image.
To me the image (if zoomed in) looks like a kind of landscape youd see in games like 1942 etc, but i cannot find any screenshots that match.

whats also worth noting is the purple or blue box to the side of the pc that has wires coming out, i was trying to match it to capture devices or pc-vhs link boxs but found no definite matches yet.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Bounty Bob on February 20, 2018, 01:03:04 am
Thanks Raven, I've posted a link to the video and details of processing over at Twin Galaxies. Would have done it last night but had to go to sleep  :).
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Raven on February 20, 2018, 02:20:14 am
Well if the audio is I fact sync, then the start button press after game starts is weird.

EDIT: Scratch that. I just checked the original video, sync is fine, something must have happened in your enhancement video that push the sync off at the end. Button syncs up in original video.

I carefully checked the enhanced video and you are correct. At the beginning, the video and audio are in sync, but at the end they are out of sync by exactly 13 frames. The problem originated in the source video I had used, and the audio sync problem was likely caused by a failure to compensate for different frame rates, say 29.97 fps as opposed to 30 fps. My best guess is that someone attempted to restore the audio to the original Robert Childs video, the one where he inexplicably replaced the original audio with classical music.

Ironically, the original Robert Childs video has the best overall picture quality, despite the missing audio, so I started from scratch and restored the audio, except that I did it properly. The video and audio are now a frame-perfect match, from beginning to end. The same settings were used to enhance the video.

If anyone wants to see the corrected video, here is a download link.

https://we.tl/8MIPLpcoRz
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Raven on February 20, 2018, 07:25:25 am
I've been closely examining the infamous Boomer's board swap video where the Donkey Kong and Donkey Kong Junor records were supposedly broken on the same day. It's the video where Billy Mitchell allegedly scored 1,062,800 points on Donkey Kong, roughly a week before his announcement at the Big Bang Video Game Hall of Fame event in Ottumwa, IA.

If anyone wants to see the corrected video, here is a download link.

https://we.tl/8MIPLpcoRz

There are two parts to the enhanced video, where the first part is "normal" and the second part is "inverted", plus I added a timecode (HH:MM:SS:FF) overlay to the upper right corner of the video for reference. The video appears grainy due to the processes used to make the lighting more consistent, plus it was sharpened slightly to bring out more detail.

Here is an image to help visualize the major differences to look for in the enhanced video. I snagged it from the video Apollo Legend made, adding numbered identifiers for reference.

(https://i.imgur.com/ijdheZZ.jpg)

The following is a transcription of the video. The timecodes should be accurate to within a few frames, and I'm reasonably certain that the text matches what was said, except for the one marked as "Unintelligible". If there are any errors, please let me know and I will make any necessary corrections.

00:00:04:24 Robert Childs: The Donkey Kong record has been broken...
00:00:07:09 Robert Childs: I'm taking the Donkey Kong board out of the game, and putting the Donkey Kong Junior board back in.
00:00:48:23 Robert Childs: Ok, we um...
00:00:51:26 Robert Childs: We have the Donkey Kong Board in our hands, right now, we're gonna switch it for DK Junior.
00:00:58:04 Robert Childs: Unintelligible...
00:00:58:29 Billy Mitchell: It's a...
00:00:59:28 Billy Mitchell: It's a good thing we've got Rob here, because as good as I can play this game, I couldn't switch a board out, or switch a board in.
00:01:07:12 Billy Mitchell: So...
00:01:08:26 Billy Mitchell: Rob, go ahead and take the Donkey Kong Junior board...
00:01:11:13 Robert Childs: Donkey Kong Junior...
00:01:12:12 Billy Mitchell: and do your stuff.
00:01:17:03 Billy Mitchell: I'm not too humble to admit that.
00:01:19:01 Robert Childs: Ok, that's good.
00:01:21:03 Robert Childs: Alright, Donkey Kong Junior goes in.
00:01:23:17 Billy Mitchell: I don't know that I'm gonna admit anything else though.
00:01:30:24 Robert Childs: Power connector...
00:02:38:16 Billy Mitchell: Hey Rob, we are in a time crunch here.
00:02:40:12 Robert Childs: Ok, I'm moving as fast as I can move.
00:02:43:11 Robert Childs: You know how these old boards work.
00:02:44:23 Billy Mitchell: No, I don't know a damned thing.
00:03:39:27 Billy Mitchell: Do I need to call in a more knowledgeable tech?
00:03:42:22 Robert Childs: Um... you might umm... have to... we've got one more wing nut.
00:04:04:26 Robert Childs: Ok, what we now have, is Donkey Kong Junior.
00:04:14:11 Game Sound: One credit added.
00:04:16:10 Robert Childs: Billy, break the record.
00:04:20:24 Billy Mitchell: It's only because uhhh... of Miss Morning Dove, is the reason why I'm going to be able to do this.
00:04:31:22 Billy Mitchell: The rest will be history.
00:04:32:24 Game Sound: Game begins.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: WCopeland on February 20, 2018, 07:51:26 am
We've known for 8 years that Robert and Billy staged the board swap with the same DKJr board. Nothing new.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: guwu on February 20, 2018, 08:04:02 am
That dialogue is performed even worse than telenovela actors could have done...
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Raven on February 20, 2018, 08:10:40 am
We've known for 8 years that Robert and Billy staged the board swap with the same DKJr board. Nothing new.

Who exactly is we? Keep in mind that the Billy Mitchell saga may be nothing new to you, but many people, myself included, have only recently become aware of it. My findings may seem redundant, but they are coming from someone who is not part of the "community", thus further reducing the chances of certain evidence being dismissed as mere conjecture or speculation. Come to think of it, I have not played Donkey Kong in more than 35 years, and I have zero interest in breaking records, but when it comes to deception... I tend to be rather good at exposing the truth.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: LMDAVE on February 20, 2018, 08:36:24 am
Raven, yes, knowing that board swap video was the same board has been known for a while, however, I did find your enhanced video interesting and useful. Even though the audio sync thing ended up being nothing, with just a little more clarity sometimes you can notice something that has been overlooked for a while, or a different set of eyes can see something that was overlooked.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: danman123456 on February 20, 2018, 10:09:49 am
We've known for 8 years that Robert and Billy staged the board swap with the same DKJr board. Nothing new.

Who exactly is we? Keep in mind that the Billy Mitchell saga may be nothing new to you, but many people, myself included, have only recently become aware of it. My findings may seem redundant, but they are coming from someone who is not part of the "community", thus further reducing the chances of certain evidence being dismissed as mere conjecture or speculation. Come to think of it, I have not played Donkey Kong in more than 35 years, and I have zero interest in breaking records, but when it comes to deception... I tend to be rather good at exposing the truth.

Appreciate the effort. I'm still confused about why all this was played out but thanks for doing the extra work on the video. It certainly shows now that there was no DK board there (Which is what im having an issue with currently why?)

Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Raven on February 20, 2018, 06:39:05 pm
Raven, yes, knowing that board swap video was the same board has been known for a while, however, I did find your enhanced video interesting and useful. Even though the audio sync thing ended up being nothing, with just a little more clarity sometimes you can notice something that has been overlooked for a while, or a different set of eyes can see something that was overlooked.

Indeed, looking at something from a new perspective can often open the door to information that was there all along, but simply overlooked. In this case, every time I look, I find something new. It's unlike anything I have ever seen before.

Appreciate the effort. I'm still confused about why all this was played out but thanks for doing the extra work on the video. It certainly shows now that there was no DK board there (Which is what im having an issue with currently why?)

Ask yourself, if it were you, what would you do? More importantly, why would you do it? Put yourself in their shoes, which in this case, is anything but easy due to the bizarre circumstances.

It all goes back to motive. You know a big event is coming up and your ego won't allow you to accept the possibility of defeat, but you're out of practice. Seriously, who has time to play video games all day? This is your one shot at being the big star at an upcoming event. Morality aside, what could you do to achieve your goal?
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: colecomeister on February 20, 2018, 07:24:55 pm
We've known for 8 years that Robert and Billy staged the board swap with the same DKJr board. Nothing new.

Who exactly is we? Keep in mind that the Billy Mitchell saga may be nothing new to you, but many people, myself included, have only recently become aware of it. My findings may seem redundant, but they are coming from someone who is not part of the "community", thus further reducing the chances of certain evidence being dismissed as mere conjecture or speculation. Come to think of it, I have not played Donkey Kong in more than 35 years, and I have zero interest in breaking records, but when it comes to deception... I tend to be rather good at exposing the truth.

Yes, I have no doubt this is old hat for the DK Forum crew, but there is value in having new "non-aligned" members come into this discussion, devote time to analyzing the evidence, and confirming the consensus, particularly as this discussion is reaching a wider lay audience than at any time the Robert Childs videos were first published. It's also valuable since Billy underlined in a recent interview that he used his specially "Nintendo-certified" PCB for the Boomer visit specifically to avoid past TG controversies around Double Donkey Kong boards, etc, and that he even sent it back to the same Nintendo engineer to "re-certify" it after Boomers to confirm it was unaltered. Reconfirming that this very special PCB was, in fact, not used provides added context for the MAME evidence - that DK was played in MAME off-site, and that the swap video was crafted to promote the illusion of live arcade play and camouflage the MAME origins.

There's no harm in underlining you can't play DK on MAME with a DK Junior PCB. And for those users on Reddit and elsewhere that were having honest difficulty in zeroing in on the fact that the DK Junior PCB was used the entire time, Raven's video offers another opportunity and vantage point on that fact.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Raven on February 20, 2018, 07:46:27 pm
And for those users on Reddit and elsewhere that were having honest difficulty in zeroing in on the fact that the DK Junior PCB was used the entire time, Raven's video offers another opportunity and vantage point on that fact.

Some people over at Twin Galaxies (and elsewhere) seem to be confused about the actual visual differences between the Donkey Kong and Donkey Kong Junior boards shown in the board swap video. To clarify, here are the specifics.

1 - (DK) White color.
1 - (JR) Yellow color.

2 - (DK) White color.
2 - (JR) Yellow color.

3 - (DK) Regular chip (Black).
3 - (JR) Axial Capacitor (Blue).

4 - (DK) Two ROM chips.
4 - (JR) One ROM chip and one regular chip.

5 - (DK) Four ROM chips.
5 - (JR) Three ROM chips and one empty socket.

Another key difference, one which is more difficult to see, is that the Donkey Kong board has an analog audio adjustment pot in section 1, while the Donkey Kong Junior board does not.

Given the rampant confusion and misinformation surrounding this... scandal, I can't help but wonder if it might be a good idea to put together something to clearly illustrate the basic "facts". I considered making a video, but every time I turn around, a new piece of information surfaces.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: QAOP Spaceman on February 21, 2018, 12:18:08 am
Quote from: colecomeister
Yes, I have no doubt this is old hat for the DK Forum crew, but there is value in having new "non-aligned" members come into this discussion, devote time to analyzing the evidence, and confirming the consensus, particularly as this discussion is reaching a wider lay audience than at any time the Robert Childs videos were first published. ...

There's no harm in underlining you can't play DK on MAME with a DK Junior PCB. And for those users on Reddit and elsewhere that were having honest difficulty in zeroing in on the fact that the DK Junior PCB was used the entire time, Raven's video offers another opportunity and vantage point on that fact.

Very well put, and point taken. Apologies for any grumpiness from the old-timers :)

This is all good supporting evidence, and hats off to Raven and others for investigating this themselves and not relying on other people's say-so.

I can't help thinking, though, that pretty much all the evidence necessary to remove the scores was presented in the very first post on this thread. I don't think there is a single serious world-class DK player who has any doubts remaining.

Regarding whether TG will also remove Billy's scores remains to be seen however, and that's their business.

Remember though that their final decision will be made by one or two people at the top, regardless of all the clueless to-ing and fro-ing, diversions and general nonsense in the dispute thread. I'm pretty confident those at the top will have already seen everything they need to, and it's just a matter of time before that hammer falls.



I suppose in a way you have to admire the brass balls of Billy and Robert Childs in trying to eke out a last dollar or two from this whole sorry saga:

(https://i.imgur.com/Xn8m92A.png)

It might be worth going to this if you're in Florida this weekend, because something tells me it may be the last chance to see the great man play in public.

Tick, tock.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Raven on February 21, 2018, 06:45:59 am
This is all good supporting evidence, and hats off to Raven and others for investigating this themselves and not relying on other people's say-so.

As mentioned previously, I may not be much of a gamer, but I despise liars (long story) and have developed keen instincts for rooting out deception. A very long time ago, I learned not to take people at their word, and always expect to see proof of any claims someone might make.

Curiously, most of the focus appears to be on MAME, when in fact there is much more evidence to consider. For example, the "Boomer" videos are crucial pieces of evidence which seem to be largely ignored. In addition, there is body language, eye movements, facial expressions, speech patterns, etc.

For example, I just spent the last two hours doing nothing but listening to the most recent Billy Mitchell interviews, taking note of how many times certain key words or phrases were used. It gave me a massive headache (literally), but the results were very telling. In this case, I have never heard anyone say "The truth of the matter is" or "The fact of the matter is" so many times in my life. Who talks like that? There were so many red flags that I could barely keep up with them.

And the way Billy Mitchell reacts to being directly called a cheater by so many people is anything but normal. Suppose I were an arrogant jerk who came to this forum bragging about how good I was at Donkey Kong and that I thought that random person X from the leaderboard was a cheater, how might they react? Since all of them appear to be very legitimate players, I suspect their reaction would not be good. At the very least... it would be on like Donkey Kong.

I'm not one to blatently call someone a liar, and generally try to be fair and impartial, but the mountain of evidence against Billy Mitchell is overwhelming. Frankly, I don't find him to be a very likable guy, but that's just my opinion and I would never let it cloud my better judgement. Facts are facts, right?
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Raven on February 21, 2018, 10:53:13 am
Facts are for Lonely Losers!
Speaking of facts, here is some "light" reading I recently found online about Billy Mitchell, Twin Galaxies and events surrounding the KoK movie. Which reminds me, I need to make time to watch King of Kong, Chasing Ghosts, etc... for the first time.

http://laweekly.blogs.com/joshuah_bearman/files/harpers_billy_mitchell.pdf (http://laweekly.blogs.com/joshuah_bearman/files/harpers_billy_mitchell.pdf)

Quote
Later, the final half-hour of Billy’s Donkey Kong tape is revealed on special monitor set up on the floor of Funspot’s arcade. Once again, Billy has carefully orchestrated the event, and everyone is there. The tension is especially high because that very day a serious challenger named Steve Wiebe had himself set a new record on Donkey Kong. Walter’s voice is like a commentator’s track as Billy’s score mounts: Looks like we may see a milestone here. At the kill screen, the final score is 1,047,200, a big advance over Wiebe’s record. Billy, who is receiving up-to-the-minute reports of the proceedings from friends, immediately asks Walter to update the Twin Galaxies website with the new score. This by-passes the normal verification process. Wiebe should be enjoying several months of championship status while Billy’s record is being verified.
Quote
For the most part, all the attention is on Billy. Walter controls history with his book, and the fight for entry, I am learning, can be bitter. Billy’s self-created legacy is deeply inscribed in its pages, and he is willing to maintain that legacy with a certain amount of manipulation. As an official referee, Billy is able to put his  challengers scores  through added scrutiny. And with his Donkey Kong tape, Billy somewhat incredibly managed to make himself the  center of attention from 1,500 miles away. When I later look at the footage shot by our documentary crew, it becomes obvious: Billy was controlling the action on all of the screens.
Quote
In King of Kong, Wiebe’s experience parallels Abdner’s, although the struggle is more bitter; Billy claimed that Steve’s board may have been hotrodded and therefore managed to invalidate his taped Donkey Kong score. The director of King of Kong also gives credit to claims that Billy cheated on his own Donkey Kong tape from Funspot, a claim I strongly disagree with, but one that is not entirely out of line with the many ways Billy has tried to discredit Wiebe’s score.
I'm beginning to see why so many people don't like Billy Mitchell, and can't help but wonder just how deep this rabbit hole really goes. Seriously, I feel like I've entered the Twilight Zone.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: xelnia on February 21, 2018, 03:30:06 pm
I have also updated the Donkey Kong Junior High Score List (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=373.0). Billy's 1,270,900 Boomer's has been removed and replaced with a 957,300 score from March 1983 in Ottumwa.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: OldMofoBo on February 21, 2018, 04:02:24 pm
I found easy proof that people seem to have overlooked in the "Board Swap" video.  Nevermind having to determine the color of the text or component arrangement...

Donkey Kong & Donkey Kong Jr. PCB's have a MAJOR difference that nobody seems to have mentioned yet(unless I missed it) - The edge connector in the top left hand corner of Donkey Kong comes right to the edge of the PCB.  On a DK Jr. PCB, the edge connector is recessed noticeably(approx 1/4").

In the Boomer's Board Swap video, the board that is initially shown in the cabinet is absolutely a DK Jr. PCB.  This can be definitively determined by the recess of the edge connector.  After the "swap", you can once again see the recessed edge connector.

I own both DK & DK Jr. PCB's and I have attached photos.  Feel free to post, submit and/or use these photos however you wish.  Hope they are clear.

Thanks!

Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: OldMofoBo on February 21, 2018, 04:07:40 pm
Picture 1.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: OldMofoBo on February 21, 2018, 04:08:35 pm
Picture 2...
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: OldMofoBo on February 21, 2018, 04:09:52 pm
Last 2 pictures.  (Sorry, I'm new to this forum)

Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: OldMofoBo on February 21, 2018, 04:12:36 pm
Sorry about the size of my photos but hopefully they are clear.  Feel free to resize them and whatever. Thanks
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Raven on February 21, 2018, 10:16:04 pm
Donkey Kong & Donkey Kong Jr. PCB's have a MAJOR difference that nobody seems to have mentioned yet(unless I missed it) - The edge connector in the top left hand corner of Donkey Kong comes right to the edge of the PCB.  On a DK Jr. PCB, the edge connector is recessed noticeably(approx 1/4").

In the Boomer's Board Swap video, the board that is initially shown in the cabinet is absolutely a DK Jr. PCB.  This can be definitively determined by the recess of the edge connector.  After the "swap", you can once again see the recessed edge connector.

Good catch. I noticed that the edge connectors looked different, but dismissed it because I had no way to confirm my findings other than poor quality pictures found online. I will add this to my list of visual differences between the two boards. Speaking of DK Junior...

Of all the nonsense team Billy has thrown up in the air, hoping something sticks, I would like to see them answer one very simple question. How did Billy Mitchell manage to break a Donkey Kong record while playing Donkey Kong Junior?

(https://i.imgur.com/tB5M2bT.png)

In a recent interview, Billy seemed to imply that he was framed, and considering the fact that the previous image is based on a single frame of video, he's right. Since he appears to have been largely responsible for the creation of the video, I guess the fact of the matter is... he framed himself.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Raven on February 22, 2018, 07:28:25 am
I just found something interesting.

Todd Rogers and Morningdove Mahoney were the two referees present when Billy Mitchell's Donkey Kong and Donkey Kong Junior records were allegedly achieved in 2010. The infamous board swap video also took place on that day. Further research suggests that Todd Rogers and Morningdove Mahoney were a couple, which is a huge conflict of interest, but it gets even more interesting.

Morningdove Mahoney is listed as card #3 of the Twin Galaxies "Superstars of 2011" video game trading card set and "Circus Card Collection". Note the following quote from the back of her card, where it states that she excelled at MAME gaming. Coincidence?

Quote
Morningdove A. Mahoney is a long-time competitor in the world of arcade coin-op. A traditional presence at the annual Funspot Classic Tournament in New Hampshire, Morningdove has been an avid gamer who has excelled in the world of arcade video and pinball as well as MAME and PC gaming. In addition to holding the PC record on Warblade and Frostbite Freddie, Morningdove holds 2nd place on Harley Davidson pinball and 3rd on Nightmare on Elm Street.
http://thewalterdaycollection.com/collection/gallery/item/0003-morningdove-mahoney?category_id=3 (http://thewalterdaycollection.com/collection/gallery/item/0003-morningdove-mahoney?category_id=3)
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: MeanGreen on February 22, 2018, 07:09:29 pm
I may have found an additional abnormality within one of Mitchell's tapes on YouTube. I decided to focus specifically on the flashing "1UP" that displays above the score at the top left corner of the screen.

I've found any recording that is running 30 FPS will display the 1UP for 8 frames and remove the 1UP for 8 frames fairly consistently. Between board transitions the frames will change the 1UP between 9 and 10 frames. To review this I used the frame advance in YouTube using the "," and "." Keys.

With that being said, the abnormality I am seeing is coming from his 1,050,200 tape.  This is at 1:48:07, Level 15, score 711,400. The barrel board transition to the pie factory.  During this board transition the 1UP stays displayed on the screen for a total of 25 frames.

I've reviewed the rest of the 1,050,200 tape along with the 1,047,200 tape. This is the only instance I have seen in either video of the 1UP being displayed that many frames.

I have also reviewed videos of other arcade DK gameplay to cross check and am seeing the 1UP with 8 frames off, 8 frames on (9 to 10 on board transitions) with the recording at 30 FPS.

Also, to ensure that abnormality in Mitchell's video wasn't some upload issue to YouTube I had reviewed the frames specifically for the pie factory boards. Starting the frame advance from the very first frame of any pie factory board will display Jumpman in 34 frames. 34 frames is also consistent in Mitchell's video for Jumpman to appear where the abnormality is as well.

If anyone has additional information on why this would occur or if I am mistaken on what I believe is occurring please chime in.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Raven on February 22, 2018, 11:37:33 pm
Billy Mitchell has contradicted himself about the presence of Pete Bouvier when he allegedly broke the records for Donkey Kong and Donkey Kong Junior on the same day at Boomers Entertainment Center in Dania, Florida, on July 31 2010.

At the Big Bang International Video Game Hall of Fame event on August 7, 2010 Billy Mitchell said:

Quote
With all the fanfare that went on, there was a lot of hugs and kisses and hooting and hollering.

From Twin Galaxies, Pete [Bouvier] was on the phone, and Pete[Bouvier] was on his way over. So I thought this will be great, I'll introduce him to the manager and I really want Twin Galaxies to have a strong foothold in south Florida with a place that's really friendly and cooperative, just like other places like Funspot.

So Pete [Bouvier] was on his way there, so I turned and I said to the Twin Galaxies people there, and I said one more thing I gotta take care of. And I started a game of Donkey Kong Junior, and I thought it was neat because I think it would have been the first time Pete [Bouvier] would have seen a world record. Am I right? No.

So I played, and I guess I was about three quarters of the way through it before I said "Boy where's Pete [Bouvier]?" and then Todd [Rogers] said "Oh he's not going to be able to make it.".

So, that's the story about Pete [Bouvier].

During an Interview on the East Side Dave show on February 6, 2018 Billy Mitchell said:

Quote
So the distributor brought a game into Boomers. Ok. It was hooked up. The Boomers managers, two of them I think, were there. Their technician hooked it up. Rob [Childs], who's a well known technician, he was there, he hooked it up. Todd [Rogers], who would be arguably, if not the most famous console gaming players, he was there with his girlfriend [Morningdove Mahoney]. And Pete Bouvier, he was there with a family member.

Quote
So we have Twin Galaxies there, we have the gameplay, we have room coverage, and when I absolutely had the good fortune, and I got the score on Donkey Kong, and I turned around, one of the people shaking my hand, one of the people patting me on the back, ok, was Pete Bouvier, the owner of Twin Galaxies.

First, Pete Bouvier was not there, now suddenly he was. Which is it?
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: xelnia on February 23, 2018, 12:40:48 am
First, Pete Bouvier was not there, now suddenly he was. Which is it?

Billy has more to say about this in the interview with Josh Houslander (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JSzpjo8Oe0).

Quote from: Billy Mitchell
And it is true that Pete Bouvier had left. It is true that he wasn't there. And it is true that he wasn't there at the end and that I texted him, but that's what I did. Um, and it is true that when the time comes and we look at the room shot of what happened, Pete Bouvier will not have been in the scene, in the photo, at the end of Donkey Kong Junior. I mean, oh well, he wasn't.

The sum of all these stories seems to be that Pete was there during at least the end portion of Donkey Kong, but left and was not in attendance during Donkey Kong Junior. But then why would Billy say, only a week after the event:

Quote
I think it would have been the first time Pete [Bouvier] would have seen a world record.

If Pete had been in attendance for DK, there's no need for this comment. If Pete being in attendance was such an important part of the legitimacy of this event, then it seems Billy, in the 2010 clip, would have mentioned that Pete WAS there...instead of telling a story where he wasn't.

Something else that I missed on the first watch, around 8:20 in...Billy says the recordings at Boomers were "fun", "silly", "extras", and "to be used later for different promos." So...that might be their potential argument for the board swap and related videos. It was just extra silly fun!
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Raven on February 23, 2018, 02:58:09 am
Billy has more to say about this in the interview with Josh Houslander (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JSzpjo8Oe0).

I saw the Josh Houslander interview of Billy Mitchell, but find his statements during the East Side Dave Show interview to be the most telling because there was little time for Billy or his supporters to prepare for the onslaught. Simply put, Billy was clearly caught off guard, and the fact that his defense continues to morph to the ever-mounting evidence against him, only serves to incriminate him even more.

Admittedly, I haven't spent a lot of time analyzing the Josh Houslander interview, but doing a proper analysis takes a lot of time, especially when the interviews tend to be full of superfluous nonsense. To alleviate this problem, I've been cutting the interview videos into digestible bits and pieces.

Speaking of superfluous nonsense, have you seen the latest East Side Dave Show video about the Billy Mitchell scandal? It definitely NSFW, but otherwise defies explanation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSNJBzro3-A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSNJBzro3-A)

If Pete had been in attendance for DK, there's no need for this comment. If Pete being in attendance was such an important part of the legitimacy of this event, then it seems Billy, in the 2010 clip, would have mentioned that Pete WAS there...instead of telling a story where he wasn't.

No doubt, Billy Mitchell certainly seems to needlessly embellish his statements, which also happens to be a classic hallmark of deception. That, plus he seems to fidget a lot, which is often a subconscious sign of apprehension. He probably doesn't even know he's doing these things, but they're a dead giveaway. Then again, maybe he's beginning to wise up because the Josh Houslander interview of Billy is audio only.

With regard to legitimacy, I recall seeing a comparison of scores attained by Billy Mitchell in public events such as Kong-Offs, where he supposedly scored dead last in some of them. If true, this hardly lends credence to his credibility. If I can find the post about these scores again, it might be interesting to factor them into the overall analysis.

Something else that I missed on the first watch, around 8:20 in...Billy says the recordings at Boomers were "fun", "silly", "extras", and "to be used later for different promos." So...that might be their potential argument for the board swap and related videos. It was just extra silly fun!

The "joke defense" is not surprising, and anyone with children is quite familiar with it. It's just another way of trying to justify or minimize things. Billy and his supporters also seem to employ gaslighting and other techniques designed to create a diversion or distraction away from the facts. Frankly, I see it as a sign of desperation, but I never fall for it.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Raven on February 23, 2018, 04:49:49 am
With regard to legitimacy, I recall seeing a comparison of scores attained by Billy Mitchell in public events such as Kong-Offs, where he supposedly scored dead last in some of them. If true, this hardly lends credence to his credibility. If I can find the post about these scores again, it might be interesting to factor them into the overall analysis.
I located the Kong-Off (public) scores list and decided to perform a quick analysis. Since I finally watched the King of Kong for the first time last night, I decided to compare the scores of Billy Mitchell to those of Steve Wiebe. For the comparison, I averaged their first three Kong-Off (public) scores, then calculated the percentage of their best claimed score.

Kong-Off Results:

https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=666.0 (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=666.0)

Billy Mitchell - 1,062,800 (Best Claimed Score):

  821,200 (KO1)
  901,900 (KO2)
  598,800 (KO3)
---------------------------
2,321,900 / 3 = 773,967 (Average Score)

773,967 / 1,062,800 = .73 * 100 = 73% of best claimed score.

Steve Wiebe - 1,064,500 (Best Claimed Score):

   986,900 (KO1)
1,006,700 (KO2)
1,048,800 (KO3)
---------------------------
3,042,400 / 3 = 1,014,133 (Average Score)

1,014,133 / 1,064,500 = .95 * 100 = 95% of best claimed score.

Lastly, I compared their average Kong-Off (public) scores to each other. The numbers don't lie, Steve Wiebe appears to be a much better player than Billy Mitchell, who's average public score does not coincide with his best claimed score.

Billy Mitchell v/s Steve Wiebe:

773,967 / 1,014,133 = .76 * 100 = 76% of Steve Wiebe's average (KO1-KO3) scores.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: M.Schrock on February 23, 2018, 05:30:57 am
No offense but I think analysing body language and past scores at the kong offs is a little silly. I'm not a pro at the game by any means my PB is 523,300 and I would say my average game doesn't go past 250,000. So I could keep track of my scores and average well below my PB. His recordings of the games in question speak for themselves they are mame, unless he can provide direct proof that they aren't then he cheated it's that cut and dry. Analysing anything else is just beating a dead horse.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Raven on February 23, 2018, 06:10:34 am
No offense but I think analysing body language and past scores at the kong offs is a little silly. I'm not a pro at the game by any means my PB is 523,300 and I would say my average game doesn't go past 250,000. So I could keep track of my scores and average well below my PB. His recordings of the games in question speak for themselves they are mame, unless he can provide direct proof that they aren't then he cheated it's that cut and dry. Analysing anything else is just beating a dead horse.

No offense taken, and much like you, I think certain things are silly, but you know what they say about opinions. Having a very strong background of technical experience to draw from, I find the MAME evidence to be somewhat convincing, but not overwhelmingly so. There are simply too many ways that the MAME evidence can be discredited, and many people don't appear to fully understand it.

Besides, if you want to catch a cheater, you have to understand why they cheat. More to the point, cheating is a form of lying, and proving that someone is a liar is anything but simple. You yourself said "unless he can provide direct proof", which leaves room for doubt. Personally, I like to be absolutely certain, beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Kewydee_17 on February 23, 2018, 06:43:52 am
There are simply too many ways that the MAME evidence can be discredited


I'd like to see some of these ways. If there are so many, could you please list a few.


I'd bet that the team of experts working on Billy's defence would love to see these many ways as well


I haven't seen any credible reasons to discredit Jry's evidence so far, but I'm all ears for new info
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Mary McManus on February 23, 2018, 07:00:25 am
Team of experts !?   The same company that cannot so much as look at their own scoreboard to see who scored what and when especially if a hollywood documentary is made! ..BWAAAHAAAAHAAAHAAAA!

 There is no tape and there are no "team of experts" either.  That's just a rouse to fool the moron public again. Just TG running damage control to hide their transgressions as usual.  There is no original Master Tape ( It was shit-canned immediately when all this started) so now there is forever plausible denyability in the form of ......"Gee............. if only they found that missing tape, that would set the record straight.but now we'll never know for sure".  I have seen this crap longer than anyone.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Raven on February 23, 2018, 07:14:45 am
I'd like to see some of these ways. If there are so many, could you please list a few.

As I said early on, I have not played Donkey Kong in more than 35 years, nor am I an expert in arcade hardware, so I will leave the gameplay and technical aspects of it for others to prove or disprove. However, being a former programmer and electronics technician, I know enough to know that a myriad of seemingly plausible explanations, either real or imagined, can be given to explain why Billy Mitchell's gameplay looks like MAME.

Ever hear the expression "can't see the forest for the trees"? Well, that's how many people seem to be about MAME, they are so focused on it that they seem to all but ignore everything else. Billy Mitchell certainly looks guilty, but appearances can be deceiving. Ask yourself this, if you were being accused of being a cheater, would you not want people to consider all available evidence?

This is a very complex situation, and no matter where the facts may lead, I continue to remain objective, and refuse to brand someone a cheater on the basis of a single piece of evidence.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: homerwannabee on February 23, 2018, 07:36:25 am
Raven, before there was the board drawing evidence for MAME, people in the Donkey Kong community already were suspicious. There was evidence before all of this.  There was the board swap, and the super high risky play that would mean certain death for any other player. 
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Sqrlmonger on February 23, 2018, 07:38:37 am
I'd like to see some of these ways. If there are so many, could you please list a few.

As I said early on, I have not played Donkey Kong in more than 35 years, nor am I an expert in arcade hardware, so I will leave the gameplay and technical aspects of it for others to prove or disprove. However, being a former programmer and electronics technician, I know enough to know that a myriad of seemingly plausible explanations, either real or imagined, can be given to explain why Billy Mitchell's gameplay looks like MAME.

This may be true, but we are only concerned with the real ones.  Furthermore, possible explanations are not the same thing as "What actually happened".  The question before us is not if there is ANY way to explain it, but if the specific tapes and recordings in question were actually created by a method that would explain it.

Quote
Ever hear the expression "can't see the forest for the trees"? Well, that's how many people seem to be about MAME, they are so focused on it that they seem to all but ignore everything else. Billy Mitchell certainly looks guilty, but appearances can be deceiving. Ask yourself this, if you were being accused of being a cheater, would you not want people to consider all available evidence?

Yes there is more than just the MAME evidence and it should be explored and cultivated just as well.  You won't get a debate on that point. However the MAME evidence is already sufficient for the simple reason that I don't have to prove how the magician's trick worked once I demonstrate that he levitated.  I already know that his claim that he "levitated with his mind" is absolutely untrue.  The same thing applies here, if we prove that the submissions were MAME we don't need to prove specifically how he pulled the wool over people's eyes along the way, we know what we saw was a trick and the rest is just the details of how he cheated.


Quote
This is a very complex situation, and no matter where the facts may lead, I continue to remain objective, and refuse to brand someone a cheater on the basis of a single piece of evidence.

Objectivity is certainly good but the evidence has sat out there for weeks now and there are no credible counters to it.  This in spite of the fact that if Billy did not cheat would merely have to supply a list of the components he uses in his recording setup.  Again, proving his innocence is not about if there is ANY explanation in the universe, it's about an explanation of what Billy actually did and whether it actually produces "MAME-like" recordings.

I also have to strongly disagree that the MAME evidence is a single piece of evidence. At a bare minimum we are talking about 3 tapes, but more than that we are talking about MAME-like transitions presenting themselves in a high percentage of board transitions. I consider each and every transition with MAME-like behavior to be a further piece of evidence.  Only one such transition is needed to show the potential for MAME, but multiple transitions are needed to demonstrate high probability.

Again, I don't disagree the rest of the evidence is useful and provides context and speaks to credibility, but I absolutely do not for a second buy the notion that the MAME evidence is anything short of 100% damning as it sits (i.e. lacking a credible counter).  If you want to call it a single piece of evidence then no problem, it's a single piece of evidence that I am more than willing to see this or any other cheater convicted by while they have absolutely no credible explanation for it.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Kewydee_17 on February 23, 2018, 08:21:52 am
I know enough to know that a myriad of seemingly plausible explanations, either real or imagined, can be given to explain why Billy Mitchell's gameplay looks like MAME.

Go on then. Give us some.

If there are a "myriad" of reasons it shouldn't take long to post half a dozen or so.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Raven on February 23, 2018, 08:43:58 am
Raven, before there was the board drawing evidence for MAME, people in the Donkey Kong community already were suspicious. There was evidence before all of this. There was the board swap, and the super high risky play that would mean certain death for any other player.

I've looked at much more material than I've alluded to in my posts, where much of it appears to be white noise resulting from the KoK movie and personal rivalries. The Twin Galaxies dispute thread about Billy Mitchell's 1,062,800 point Donkey Kong score is a prime example of this, where it quickly became a train wreck after the MAME evidence was posted. To keep things simple, I've opted to start with the present and work my way backwards in time.

I also have to strongly disagree that the MAME evidence is a single piece of evidence. At a bare minimum we are talking about 3 tapes, but more than that we are talking about MAME-like transitions presenting themselves in a high percentage of board transitions. I consider each and every transition with MAME-like behavior to be a further piece of evidence.  Only one such transition is needed to show the potential for MAME, but multiple transitions are needed to demonstrate high probability.

In this case, I should have chosen my words more carefully. A more apt description would be a certain type (not piece) of evidence. No doubt, MAME is a complex subject, one which I mostly understand, but other than simply comparing results as they've been presented, I'm not fully qualified to call them conclusive proof.

In my opinion, the preponderance of the evidence, including that which I've discovered on my own, indicates a very high probability of guilt, where MAME alone might constitute a 70% probability of guilt in my eyes. At this point in time, having started out at 50% either way, I would now estimate the probability of guilt being 90% or higher. And that's excluding witness statements, except those from Billy Mitchell himself, largely because everybody seems to be pointing fingers at everybody else.

Evidence aside, one thing that stands out to me is that the classic arcade gaming community seems to be very fractured and hostile. Considering the fact that video game cheating appears to be rampant, I can't say I blame anyone for being suspicious and perhaps even angry. Every good story needs a villan, and guilty or innocent, Billy Mitchell seems to be fulfilling that role to perfection. It's just sad knowing that video games exist for people to enjoy, but instead they have become a vehicle for open conflict. Personally, I could care less about some number on a screen, and if someone beat my score to a pulp, I'd be the first to shake their hand, as long as they did it honestly.

Go on then. Give us some.

If there are a "myriad" of reasons it shouldn't take long to post half a dozen or so.

Sorry, I'm not biting. This isn't my first rodeo, and I've played that game before. I've said my peace, take it or leave it.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Sqrlmonger on February 23, 2018, 08:46:50 am
I know enough to know that a myriad of seemingly plausible explanations, either real or imagined, can be given to explain why Billy Mitchell's gameplay looks like MAME.

Go on then. Give us some.

If there are a "myriad" of reasons it shouldn't take long to post half a dozen or so.

To avoid the confrontation. Raven is stating knowledge that such explanations are possible, not knowledge of specific explanations.

Or at least that is what I took from it.

Unfortunately, if this is the case it means the statement has no factual relevance to the discussion for the simple reason that a possible explanation, even if we grant the assertion that such exists, is not relevant.  Only what was actually done to create the video is relevant.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Sqrlmonger on February 23, 2018, 10:16:21 am
I just wanted to add this as an example of how I have been analyzing the MAME evidence.

(https://i.lensdump.com/i/82o2tb.png) (https://i.lensdump.com/i/82o2tb.png)
NOTE: The y-axis of the graph is on a logarithmic scale (if anyone is unsure what this means read here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logarithmic_scale)).

The graph above demonstrates the probabilities (as inverses, which I find is a more human relaetable format) involved in a single game worth of MAME transitions.  To make the analysis I had to assume the probability that an artifact resulting from the capture process would generate MAME like behaviors. In this case the graph presents 10%, 20%, and 30%, but I have a spreadsheet showing probabilities for 40%, 50%, 60%, 70%, 80%, and 90% as well.  I think myself, and those who know far more than myself, realize that 30% is a very generous likelihood that the confluence of factors necessary would make a normal arcade transition appear MAME-like. This is particularly true given the fact that it ignores the odds of such stupendous coincidence in the first place.  Nevertheless, my spreadsheet analysis accounts for the possibility of further developments on this front.

I will leave the graph for others to draw their own conclusions, I will just note the following two examples of other highly improbable events:

PS - Apologies for not making the y-axis in scientific notation, I felt it was important for impact that people really see how big these numbers are.

Edit: Oh I also wanted to stress that the graphs are already making the assumption that Billy can demonstrate a method by which an arcade transition can be made to look like a MAME transition.  This is why the lower end of the graph has upward tails, because there is also improbability in a low probability event not happening at all over 84 transititions (I might be off in my number there, but I can easily adjust my analysis as needed).  Again, the tails at the lower end of the chart are because even a low 10%-30% probability event should occur a couple of times when given 84 chances.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Sqrlmonger on February 23, 2018, 10:27:46 am
I just realized I'm at least off by 1 potential transition because the initial load of the first level is a transition plus 4 boards over 21 levels leading into the first board on 22 as the kill screen. 

Can someone confirm that what I have described above is correct?  I think I need to consider 85 possible transitions, not 84, is that wrong? 

Just goes to show, my expertise is not in DK, so any help is appreciated. 

Also to Xelnia/Jeremy Young, since you are the one with the expertise and you have analyzed the games extensively can you tell me how many transitions in a given game exhibit MAME-like behavior in your analysis? 

Thanks

edit: Just wanted to note that since my being off by 1 makes the odds harder to explain away and not easier I'm not going to bother with updated graph for now unless there is interest in it.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Kewydee_17 on February 23, 2018, 10:51:45 am
Fair enough Raven, I won't press you again.

I wanted to know of the myriad ways because that could have brought many more scores on many arcade games into question. That seems important enough to seek more info

If it were possible to easily and in many different ways fake output between genuine arcade output and mame output, frame by frame, then who knows how many other arcade scores could be dubious?

You could shake the gaming world with your revelations.

Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Raven on February 23, 2018, 11:22:35 am
Fair enough Raven, I won't press you again.

I wanted to know of the myriad ways because that could have brought many more scores on many arcade games into question. That seems important enough to seek more info

If it were possible to easily and in many different ways fake output between genuine arcade output and mame output, frame by frame, then who knows how many other arcade scores could be dubious?

You could shake the gaming world with your revelations.

The thing is, I have no specific revelations to make, at least none which are specific to the world of gaming. Believe me, I'm not one to withold important information, and every time I find something I deem to be of some importance, I reveal it openly. I'm simply not fond of the idea of keeping secrets, unless it's necessary to prevent someone from being harmed, etc.

It's just that I've been around long enough to know that things of a technical nature can become... complicated. For example, you might recall seeing some recent Billy Mitchell defense claims of a technical nature made on behalf of Robert Childs, which didn't seem to make much sense. Honestly, they were so long and rambling that I could barely make out exactly what their assertions were. However, my electronics experience did help me to pick up on enough clues to regard most of it as nonsense.

Otherwise, I firmly believe that anything can be faked. The trick is making it more trouble than it's worth.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Shane_NC on February 23, 2018, 06:25:03 pm
Guys, ffs stop with the hostility. Raven is trying to HELP get to the truth, and HAS DONE A SHITLOAD of work on his own time to facilitate that end. You would only be hurting the entire endevour by bickering about inconsequential shit. I personally want to thank Raven for all that he has done, and hopefully he will not be discouraged to continue aiding us all in trying to find the truth, whatever that is.

Thanks a lot Raven, you are a blessing.

-Shane from North Carolina
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Raven on February 24, 2018, 04:34:19 am
The Billy Mitchell 1,050,200 score video does appear to have been spliced, in addition to containing distinct MAME characteristics. To confirm the sound anomalies reported by Apollo Legend, I exported the audio from the video to an mp3 file, then used Audacity to create an audio spectrogram. Note the gap followed by an overlap, which is indicative of a splice point.

Well the 747,400 was at the end of the barrel board, the stacked Kong’s next, then rivers start with same score of course. it then backed up to the end of the barrel board again. No reason the score would change. It did look pretty crazy at first but it’s already been shown the original record didn’t have it.

When I got the tape in Jan. '08, I had the VHS recording transferred to DVD, but it spanned over 2 discs.  It's possible the anomaly happened at the end of disc 1/beginning of disc 2 if this was uploaded from those discs.

This is a plausible explanation. I went back and checked again, except this time I expanded the scope of my frame by frame video analysis to include several seconds on either end of the segment in question. Just before the barrel screen ends, the score changes from 744,200 to 747,400 (score + bonus), and the details appear to be consistent with a "glitch" rather than an intentional splice.

I've been following the Billy Mitchell 1,062,800 dispute thread over at Twin Galaxies, where the Apollo Legend audio splice "evidence" has cropped up again. In the interest of being fair, it should be pointed out that the splice theory was debunked a week ago. The audio gaps and overlapping frames appear to be the result of a digital transfer, nothing more.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Mary McManus on February 24, 2018, 07:26:35 am
$6000 video equipment used to "examine"  the tap" eh?! Love the LED driven digit readout. Nothing says 21st century than an LED driven numeric readout.

The frame by frame shot using what appears to be an archaic piece of equipment to begin with, seems absolutely useless when illustrating the load states MAME or ARCADE.

 Plus the jargon and terminology used "interlaced" -240p "progressive" "RGB to NTSC" "quanzie matrix structure' ect..... is sure to confuse any layman involved.

The whole case just seems to rest on how "expensive"  the equipment used in the annylisis was.
 That equipment may have cost $6000 30+ years ago, but it's probably worth $60 now and like I said,  seems to incapable of showing the load states.

Maybe TG will use a wind up victrola for the audio examination?
 TG has failed again with thier defense but it doesn't matter. Too Big to fail.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: maximumsteve on February 24, 2018, 07:50:05 am

"I suppose in a way you have to admire the brass balls of Billy and Robert Childs in trying to eke out a last dollar or two from this whole sorry saga:
It might be worth going to this if you're in Florida this weekend, because something tells me it may be the last chance to see the great man play in public.

Tick, tock." From Spaceman....

I have not been on here in a little while, because unlike some who live and breathe on this forum 24/7, I have a life and work, etc.. however I did notice this quote from Spaceman I put up first in this post , and as far as this event goes, You could NOT BE MORE OFF BASE AND WRONG. This is MY event. Robert owns the building that facilitates it, and Bill shows up to it, with no appearance fee for reference, as he lives local to it. I promote, advertise, and host Retro Arcade Night. We do this event once every couple months, and the PROFIT, if any, that is made from the event always goes to a local cause or charity, such as late last year, as an example, We asked people to bring Water, and non-perishable goods for the local area and Puerto Rico after Hurricane Irma, in addition to any profit made going to charity related with that cause.  This event's funds will go to the GO Fund and other charities related with the Marjory Stoneman Douglas situation and tragedy that we are all trying to recover from in South Florida. So think or ask about something before you assume or judge what an event is for.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: WCopeland on February 24, 2018, 08:23:26 am
because unlike some who live and breathe on this forum 24/7, I have a life and work, etc..

Totally unnecessary.
Title: Twin Galaxy's FAILS AGAIN!....
Post by: Mary McManus on February 24, 2018, 08:26:29 am
Even with a piece of video equipment that cost several thousands of dollars, they STILL cannot  confirm or deny (that's whole the plan in case your wondering ) if the tape loads the graphics like MAME or arcade.

 I don't care if the machine cost $6,000,000,000, from what I've seen, this "VERY EXPENSIVE" equipment is still incapable of confirming MAME loads or Arcade loads therefore the very fine, expensive piece of equipment is totally useless.

 If anything it raises more suspicions because there are NO load states to be observed in any way shape or form.

Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: QAOP Spaceman on February 24, 2018, 09:02:36 am
as far as this event goes, You could NOT BE MORE OFF BASE AND WRONG. This is MY event.

I stand corrected. I take my hat off to anyone who tries to encourage people to give classic gaming a try, and kudos to you for donating profits to people less fortunate than yourself.

Quote
So think or ask about something before you assume or judge what an event is for.

Chastened as I am, I stand by my brass balls remark, at least in terms of showing up in public.

And you might want to 'think or ask' more about the people you ask to help promote your events. I don't think Lance Armstrong gets invited to compere many cycling events these days.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Sqrlmonger on February 25, 2018, 03:45:21 am
I wanted to post this here because it contains a lot of good information from the TG dispute thread and I know some people here might miss it:

Note: All of the content below is from Asterra on the Twin Galaxies forum, credit goes to them.

Link to the first post (https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/176004-Dispute-Jeremy-Young-Arcade-Donkey-Kong-Points-Hammer-Allowed-Player-Billy-L-Mitchell-Score-1-062-800?p=952350&viewfull=1#post952350).

Quote from: Asterra on TG
Since this matter hasn't yet been clarified adequately, I feel I should step in. Let me begin by reiterating my previous conclusion (which should be very easy for Jace to test) that the recently-rediscovered Billy 1.05M tape is itself showing only 30fps gameplay, downconverted, for whatever reason, from 60fps (or perhaps MAME was told only to generate a 30fps video) by way of discarding every other frame. At the very least, this is what is shown in the two full-length Youtube videos of said score, which is where the above GIF is sourced. My conclusion about the true framerate of the DK gameplay in Jace's tape stems from the fact that there is absolutely no evidence of the missing frames present in the video he recently provided wherein he scrutinizes the tape frame-by-frame.

Now, with that having been stipulated, here is the short answer to the question about the disparity in board transitions: Donkey Kong runs at 60fps, and it does not conveniently begin board transitions on an even (or odd) frame every single time. If you're only seeing every other frame of gameplay, as is the case with every specimen of the 1.05M score, then sometimes you're seeing frames 1,3,5,7 of a transition, and sometimes you're seeing frames 2,4,6,8.

The proof is in the pudding. Here is the complete breakdown of how barrel transitions appear in the 1.05M score as seen on Youtube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfk0WxlSqpo):

00:00:37 Single frame, split 75%
00:04:39 Single frame, split 25%
00:10:28 Single frame
00:16:35 Single frame
00:19:04 Single frame
00:24:01 Single frame
00:26:45 Broken beam, split 75%
00:29:03 Broken beam
00:32:01 Broken beam
00:34:43 Broken beam
00:37:07 Broken beam
00:39:53 Broken beam
00:42:10 Broken beam
00:44:16 Broken beam
00:47:24 Broken beam
00:49:52 Single frame
00:52:25 Broken beam, split 3%
00:55:29 Broken beam
00:58:00 Broken beam
01:00:37 Single frame
01:03:22 Single frame
01:05:53 Broken beam
01:08:22 Broken beam, split 10%
01:11:22 Broken beam, split 90%
01:13:57 Single frame
01:16:18 Single frame
01:19:54 Single frame
(death)
01:21:09 Broken beam
01:23:44 Single frame
01:26:21 Single frame
01:29:10 Single frame
01:32:00 Single frame, split 35%
01:34:23 Broken beam
01:37:00 Single frame, split 8%
01:40:17 Single frame
01:42:51 Single frame
01:45:53 Single frame
01:48:17 Broken beam
01:50:58 Single frame
01:54:01 Single frame
01:56:34 Single frame
01:59:17 Single frame
02:02:36 Single frame
02:05:14 Single frame
02:07:44 Single frame
02:11:10 Single frame
02:14:18 Broken beam
02:16:44 Broken beam
02:19:50 Broken beam, split 8%
02:22:38 Single frame
02:25:13 Broken beam
02:28:18 Broken beam
02:30:30 Single frame, doubled frame
02:32:17 Broken beam
02:35:03 Single frame
02:37:50 Single frame, split 85%

"Broken beam" means the second long beam is visibly broken at a specific spot (as seen in the above GIF). "Single frame" means the entire board appears in a single frame. "Split x%" refers to an anomaly of the screen being split vertically with the left portion appearing one frame ahead of schedule -- probably a quirk of the MAME version used, since the vertical split is not straight from top to bottom in every instance.

Let's compare this to a MAME Donkey Kong score that is also presented in 30fps with every other frame discarded:

MAME Donkey Kong World Record Dean Saglio 1,206,800 HD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnhihX0A1_8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnhihX0A1_8)
---
00:00:15 Broken beam
00:04:25 Broken beam
00:10:25 Single frame
00:16:14 Single frame
00:18:53 Broken beam
00:23:38 Broken beam
00:28:27 Broken beam
00:31:12 Single frame
00:34:17 Broken beam
00:36:46 Single frame
00:40:10 Single frame
00:46:48 Broken beam
00:49:35 Broken beam
00:52:29 Broken beam
00:56:27 Broken beam
00:59:12 Single frame
01:02:55 Broken beam
01:06:36 Broken beam
01:09:39 Single frame
01:13:15 Broken beam
01:17:29 Broken beam

The "broken beam" in this version of MAME has a different appearance (identical to MAME 0.115 (https://i.imgur.com/ygRJmPy.gif) as shown in Xelnia's original post (https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/176004-Dispute-Jeremy-Young-Arcade-Donkey-Kong-Points-Hammer-Allowed-Player-Billy-L-Mitchell-Score-1-062-800?p=946633&viewfull=1#post946633), whereas Billy's 1.05M broken beam matches MAME 0.116 - 0.121 (https://i.imgur.com/L2EyYP7.gif)). As before, some transitions show the broken beam, some don't.

Here is data from a 60fps MAME recording of Donkey Kong. I've taken the time to note the very first frame we see any portion of the barrel stage.

Donkey Kong MAME 60fps Mame32Plus!0.100 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63hIsjyxAGA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63hIsjyxAGA)
---
00:00:25:06 Even
00:03:40:37 Odd
00:06:37:02 Even
00:10:03:50 Even
00:14:35:09 Odd
00:18:12:44 Even
00:22:05:25 Odd
00:25:36:35 Odd
00:28:54:53 Odd
00:31:42:00 Even
00:35:17:50 Even

And finally, the 60fps direct feed video recently posted by Chris G.

Chris G direct capture via Nintendo Inverter Board and Composite Out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkjt17XiPIs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkjt17XiPIs)
---
00:00:22:24 Even
00:01:31:57 Odd
00:03:06:12 Even
00:05:19:04 Even
00:07:52:18 Even
00:08:45:57 Odd
00:11:10:36 Even
00:12:13:14 Even
00:13:13:58 Even
00:13:41:39 Odd
00:15:45:24 Even
00:18:11:22 Even
00:19:16:15 Odd
00:21:13:40 Even
00:22:50:13 Odd
00:24:04:40 Even
00:25:53:29 Odd
00:26:50:00 Even
00:28:21:29 Odd

In short, MAME faithfully reproduces Donkey Kong's unpredictability as to whether board transitions begin on an even or odd frame, and this phenomenon, when combined with the removal of every other frame, generates the discrepancy that has inspired some recent confusion. In every 30fps Youtube video of MAME Donkey Kong, one should be able to find examples of both types of barrel transition: Single frame and multiple-frame.

Link to the second post (https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/176004-Dispute-Jeremy-Young-Arcade-Donkey-Kong-Points-Hammer-Allowed-Player-Billy-L-Mitchell-Score-1-062-800?p=952373&viewfull=1#post952373).

Quote from: Asterra on TG
I should here point out that there's no question about whether the gameplay on the 1.05M tape is MAME. Every board transition does one of two things, either a broken beam (broken the same way every single time) or not. The specific way this broken beam appears is not only an identical match for MAME, but absolutely never manifests in any known actual direct feed or indirect video of Donkey Kong, including Chris G's recent 60fps direct. Meanwhile, direct/indirect videos of Donkey Kong perform barrel transitions with unique but 100% reliable visual quirks which never manifest in the 1.05M video. When I was obtaining the exact frames from Chris G's video, this became blatantly apparent. It is likely because all of this is so obvious that the gaming community at large has been able to form a solid conclusion.

Nonetheless, Jace is obligated to give the matter as thorough an examination as can be done, in order to nip precisely these kinds of potential obfuscations in the bud. This means figuring out the nature of Billy's recording, and whatever else comes along, regardless of how conclusive the evidence may already be.

In short, think of the MAME question as having been answered in brief by the DKF's removal of Billy's scores, and answered at length by TG's pending verdict.

Note: All of the above content is from Asterra on the Twin Galaxies forum, credit goes to them.
Title: Re: Twin Galaxy's FAILS AGAIN!....
Post by: Bounty Bob on February 26, 2018, 01:30:43 am
Even with a piece of video equipment that cost several thousands of dollars, they STILL cannot  confirm or deny (that's whole the plan in case your wondering ) if the tape loads the graphics like MAME or arcade.

 I don't care if the machine cost $6,000,000,000, from what I've seen, this "VERY EXPENSIVE" equipment is still incapable of confirming MAME loads or Arcade loads therefore the very fine, expensive piece of equipment is totally useless.

 If anything it raises more suspicions because there are NO load states to be observed in any way shape or form.
Jace just showed us the start of the tape so that we could see how accurately the player was able to show the frames. For what its worth, what Jace showed over at TG matched exactly to the youtube video at that same point, so I've no doubt that further analysis will just confirm what we see on the youtube videos.

As obvious as the cheating it might seem to us, they need to investigate properly because it would be pretty bad if they just struck the scores and they somehow turned out to be valid. At least they now have a proper source for one of the 1 million+ games rather than relying on digital conversions which may or may not have lost frames etc.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: homerwannabee on February 26, 2018, 06:02:56 am
Finally someone decided to compare an Arcade Donkey Kong Junior transition draw to the MAME Donkey Kong Junior transition draw.   And wouldn't you know it, Billy Mitchell's Donkey Kong Junior transition draw looks more like a MAME draw.  Props for Matthew Felix for taking the time to do this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIcE-v7lvUc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIcE-v7lvUc)
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Josephjo on February 26, 2018, 08:35:07 am
Finally someone decided to compare an Arcade Donkey Kong Junior transition draw to the MAME Donkey Kong Junior transition draw.   And wouldn't you know it, Billy Mitchell's Donkey Kong Junior transition draw looks more like a MAME draw.  Props for Matthew Felix for taking the time to do this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIcE-v7lvUc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIcE-v7lvUc)

Thats down to Robert Childs Jnr's Wonkavision camera set up.

He filmed Mitchell's DK and Jnr scores on the same day - if his DK boards transfered from Arcade to Mame then his Jnr boards were bound to.

 Kappa
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: maximumsteve on February 26, 2018, 08:47:15 am
I want to thank everyone who came out the other night and contributed, with your admission and attendance, to the cause of the Marjory Stoneman Douglas GO Fund. Great atmosphere and a lot of fun was had.
We give a special thanks to "Apollo Legend" Youtube footage man for taking the time to come to the event, support the cause, and watch Billy Mitchell play Donkey Kong throughout the course of the night and get to meet myself, Robert Childs, Carlos Pineiro and discuss in a friendly and objective manner, many of the questions and aspects to the DK game footage that has been under scrutiny. Bill wanted me to relay that it was a pleasure for Bill to introduce Apollo to his family, show Apollo the DK machine, the inner workings in the back of the machine and field questions from him and his friend regarding the controversy, along with Robert and Carlos chiming in with their answers and information to his questions.
It is greatly appreciated that Apollo took the time to come out and experience our event and get to know each other and have fun, which is the true spirit of what gaming and community should be. He also came dressed like Bill, which was hilarious!! and here are some pics of Bill meeting Bill, lol. And Robert.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: homerwannabee on February 26, 2018, 09:01:49 am
Very glad Apollo Legend showed up.  It's funny that you never advertised that Billy was going to go for a score.  From now on I encourage anyone from the Donkey Kong community show up to any public event Billy Mitchell shows up to.  Apparently he likes to surprise people with announced Donkey Kong attempts.  So people from the community should come to these events just for the chance to see him play a game of Donkey Kong.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Realzach2001 on February 26, 2018, 10:09:17 am
So, how did Billy do on DK??
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Raven on February 26, 2018, 10:45:00 am
I transcribed the scores from Billy Mitchell's 1,047,200 and 1,050,200 point Donkey Kong games, board by board, level by level. Here are the basic stats from each transcription.

1,047,200 Points Game (+1 Life @ 7,000 Points):

Code: [Select]
Board Average Total
-------------------------
Barrel 10,500 583,200
Rivet 7,700 168,700
Pie 7,700 152,900
Spring 7,200 142,400

Code: [Select]
Level Average Total
-------------------------
1 7,700 15,400
2 8,000 23,900
3 9,100 36,400
4 8,900 44,100
5 9,300 55,700
6 9,800 58,400
7 9,600 57,100
8 9,500 56,500
9 8,200 48,900
10 8,900 53,000
11 9,000 62,500
12 8,900 53,200
13 9,600 57,200
14 9,800 58,600
15 9,000 53,500
16 9,800 58,600
17 8,200 49,000
18 8,000 48,000
19 7,300 50,700
20 8,200 48,700
21 9,700 57,800

1,050,200 Points Game (+1 Life @ 7,000 Points):

Code: [Select]
Board Average Total
-------------------------
Barrel 11,000 601,100
Rivet 7,800 156,000
Pie 8,600 162,400
Spring 6,900 130,700

Code: [Select]
Level Average Total
-------------------------
1 8,600 17,100
2 9,300 27,900
3 9,400 37,500
4 9,700 48,500
5 9,000 54,000
6 9,800 58,700
7 9,600 57,200
8 9,300 55,700
9 9,800 58,400
10 9,000 54,000
11 9,500 56,900
12 9,000 62,400
13 9,800 58,300
14 9,000 53,500
15 9,100 54,500
16 9,300 55,600
17 8,900 53,200
18 8,700 60,800
19 9,500 56,700
20 9,600 57,500
21 11,800 11,800
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: LMDAVE on February 26, 2018, 10:51:58 am
So, how did Billy do on DK??

I saw the claim from Joel, "It was 760k+ change, over a 1.5M+ change pace." (Which is probably 1.05M is what he meant)

and another "Pretty decent from what I've heard. Was on a 1.1M pace ending at 700+K. "
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: danman123456 on February 26, 2018, 01:25:42 pm
I transcribed the scores from Billy Mitchell's 1,047,200 and 1,050,200 point Donkey Kong games, board by board, level by level. Here are the basic stats from each transcription.

1,047,200 Points Game (+1 Life @ 7,000 Points):

Code: [Select]
Board Average Total
-------------------------
Barrel 10,500 583,200
Rivet 7,700 168,700
Pie 7,700 152,900
Spring 7,200 142,400

Code: [Select]
Level Average Total
-------------------------
1 7,700 15,400
2 8,000 23,900
3 9,100 36,400
4 8,900 44,100
5 9,300 55,700
6 9,800 58,400
7 9,600 57,100
8 9,500 56,500
9 8,200 48,900
10 8,900 53,000
11 9,000 62,500
12 8,900 53,200
13 9,600 57,200
14 9,800 58,600
15 9,000 53,500
16 9,800 58,600
17 8,200 49,000
18 8,000 48,000
19 7,300 50,700
20 8,200 48,700
21 9,700 57,800

1,050,200 Points Game (+1 Life @ 7,000 Points):

Code: [Select]
Board Average Total
-------------------------
Barrel 11,000 601,100
Rivet 7,800 156,000
Pie 8,600 162,400
Spring 6,900 130,700

Code: [Select]
Level Average Total
-------------------------
1 8,600 17,100
2 9,300 27,900
3 9,400 37,500
4 9,700 48,500
5 9,000 54,000
6 9,800 58,700
7 9,600 57,200
8 9,300 55,700
9 9,800 58,400
10 9,000 54,000
11 9,500 56,900
12 9,000 62,400
13 9,800 58,300
14 9,000 53,500
15 9,100 54,500
16 9,300 55,600
17 8,900 53,200
18 8,700 60,800
19 9,500 56,700
20 9,600 57,500
21 11,800 11,800

Good stuff! This may all be in the Kongtrackr site. It has a lot of info in it check it out here http://kongtrackr.herokuapp.com (http://kongtrackr.herokuapp.com)

Its great to have this here so others can see. Those spring averages are pretty darn good at 7,200 & 6,900? Wow... Mine was only 6,000 for my 1,059 game
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: maximumsteve on February 26, 2018, 01:47:08 pm
There's nothing "funny" about it George Riley. The emphasis of this event became raising money for families devastated by a local tragedy in the community. Bill was greeting people,roaming around and decided to play a few games, starting to practice for Banning next month. In case he happens to go deep on a game, he wants it recorded all the way through ofcourse. I made mention several times that Bill will be in attendance and the address of where this was taking place. The more the merrier on anyone that wants to come and watch Bill play, when I hold an event and he tells me he will be there. We are not hard to find.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Sqrlmonger on February 26, 2018, 03:30:09 pm

Doesn't really serve any useful purpose to be that hostile.
Indeed it doesn't, but it's nothing new. Regardless, it certainly bolsters my previous point about apparent hostility in the video game community, where it hardly creates the impression of a "welcoming" environment. And to think, I was briefly considering the possibility of dropping a few grand on a new arcade cabinet.

I'm not clear as to how these comments are any more helpful. 

Perhaps we can all focus on the issue at hand and ignore any slights, perceived or real, going forward?  The rhetoric, justifiable or not, is just not relevant to the topic and as such it really has no place here.

I think the easiest thing to do is to let any off comment speak for itself. Trust that the rest of the community can see such comments for what they are and save your replies for the topic at hand.

Anyways, I'm obviously not a mod so I'll let it be now, I was just hoping I could appeal to better judgements and cooler heads.  We all want the same thing, so lets try to give each other the benefit of the doubt that we would ask for ourselves.

Cheers~
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: homerwannabee on February 26, 2018, 04:12:42 pm
Steve, my point is you could have had a few more people show up if you announced that he was going to play.  He usually just shows up as a representative.  You announce he's going for a score and you get more money for the charity.  That's what I found strange/funny.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: maximumsteve on February 26, 2018, 04:28:28 pm
I see what you're saying George, but oddly enough down here, on average, people care more about the game selection we have when we do it rather than who is going to be there. He is more of a novelty then a spectacle when he is here because a lot of people that attend have already met him numerous times or know him already through local business, restaurants, etc.. being that it is the area where he actually lives in. It's been somber down here from the Parkland thing the last couple weeks. That incident happened about 15 minutes away from where we are located, but I get your idea!
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Sqrlmonger on February 28, 2018, 12:08:15 am
Apologies if this has been covered before but I was just thinking about the IVGHoF presentation of the DK and DK Jr scores.  Specifically, I was considering that the claim coming from Billy and his supporters at the moment seems to be that the MAME artifacts are a result of the combination of:

1) The monitor/displays being used
2) The cameras and settings being used

And that what we see as MAME artifacts are not a result of:

3) The content actually present on the direct feed VHS tapes.

The reason I think this is important, and again, tell me if this has been pointed out already, is that there are multiple videos from multiple people of the IVGHoF event and they show both the DK and DK Jr scores.

Thus,
1) If multiple people with different cameras and settings are all getting the same artifacts it tells us that either the camera is not involved in the production of these artifacts -OR- that a wide range of (probably default) camera settings will recreate the effect with ease.  If this is the case then we already know we need a direct feed recording of DK on VHS and we know what display was used and that the VHS recording is a direct feed. So what could possibly be taking so long to reproduce when we know all three steps of the process?

2) Recently, as I'm sure many of you have seen, there has been demonstrations (https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/176004-Dispute-Jeremy-Young-Arcade-Donkey-Kong-Points-Hammer-Allowed-Player-Billy-L-Mitchell-Score-1-062-800?p=952895&viewfull=1#post952895) that the DK Jr footage is also showing MAME artifacts. However, the MAME artifacts in DK Jr do not appear, to my admittedly non-expert eye, to be similar in nature to the artifacts in the DK footage.  This of course makes me wonder, how can the same displays and cameras produce different artifacts?  To my mind, the only explanation is that the difference resides on the tapes themselves.

But perhaps I just don't know what I'm looking at (which I accept is possible).  Open to some thoughts or clarification on any of this.

PS - Am I wrong about the "Billy camp" claiming the "original" tape won't show these effects though? Part of my frustration here is that there is no "official" claims coming from them making it impossible to nail anything down. I can't imagine they think the original tapes show the problem given that they are out there saying the original tapes will vindicate them.  Of course, I suppose it depends on if we are talking about the direct feed tape or the room camera tape (which I doubt exists anyways).

Cheers~
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: JCHarrist on February 28, 2018, 04:04:00 am
This is the result of extensive testing shot at 120 FPS with a GoPro Hero Silver 4 of all Donkey Kong transitions on both arcade and MAME .106.

The TKG4-14 board was connected to a Mike's Arcade Nintendo to JAMMA adapter then to a Gonbes 8220 RGB to VGA adapter fed to 2 separate LCD monitors. The small LCD was for reference as the game was being played while 19" LCD was being shot by the GoPro. The goal was to remove the CRT from the equation as the scanlines at these shutter speeds make interpreting results difficult.

(https://i.imgur.com/YLzTtcJ.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/uoJBQl5.jpg)



The MAME setup is a homemade cabinet with a circa 2010 PC running MAME version .106.

(https://i.imgur.com/4ggiJbt.jpg)



Here is all 4 transitions shot at 720P 120 FPS Narrow and played back side by side at 1/100th speed.



Even at 120 FPS there is still "ghosting" effects that can cause things from a previous or later frame to display faintly but the differences between arcade and MAME are very apparent.

MAME draws the board faster in every case and there are key "fingerprint" frames that are absolutely unique to each platform.


The barrel board key frame is this girder pattern which everyone should be familiar with by now. Arcade will always show 5 girder segments and MAME shows 3 with the "Kong" girder extending all the way to left side of the screen.

(https://i.imgur.com/vgJ3gJM.jpg)



On the pie boards the easiest identifier is the two upper long ladders. Arcade draws one at a time while MAME draws them simultaneously.

(https://i.imgur.com/8urVyFn.jpg)



The elevator board is similar to the pie board in that arcade draws the long ladders one at a time and MAME draws them together. Other obvious differences as well.

(https://i.imgur.com/eczstjG.jpg)



On the rivet boards, arcade draws the right side ladders first and MAME draws them all but the lower right at the same time.

(https://i.imgur.com/DGcptiw.jpg)



These results are 100% repeatable and screen and camera orientation make no significant difference.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: SHLONKY on February 28, 2018, 08:14:21 am
This is the result of extensive testing shot at 120 FPS with a GoPro Hero Silver 4 of all Donkey Kong transitions on both arcade and MAME .106.

The TKG4-14 board was connected to a Mike's Arcade Nintendo to JAMMA adapter then to a Gonbes 8220 RGB to VGA adapter fed to 2 separate LCD monitors. The small LCD was for reference as the game was being played while 19" LCD was being shot by the GoPro. The goal was to remove the CRT from the equation as the scanlines at these shutter speeds make interpreting results difficult.

These results are 100% repeatable and screen and camera orientation make no significant difference.

good work! maybe you should get this pinned to the first page!
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: YesAffinity on February 28, 2018, 08:34:47 am
^^Submit to the TG thread too if you haven't already.  Further documentation and refinement of the primary basis of the claim.  Good work!
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Sqrlmonger on February 28, 2018, 04:17:08 pm
Before I spend more time on this, how much interest would there be in more statistical analysis of scores?

I have already taken the KongTracker database and imported it into a small c# program to produce a proof of concept:

Code: [Select]
            Other      Billy Mitchell
Board #   Averages    1.047M   1.050M
1            8,724     8,700    8,900
2            8,296     6,700    8,200
3            8,876     9,700   10,500
4            7,081     6,300    7,600
5            8,546     7,900    9,800
6            9,935     9,400    9,700
7            8,272     9,000    9,000
8            7,403     7,400    7,800
9            8,964    10,600   11,000
10          11,714     9,700   12,300
11           8,270     8,400    9,000
12          11,379    10,700   12,600
13           6,659     7,600    6,200
14           8,035     7,700    8,400
15          11,726    10,500   11,400
16           8,114     7,100    7,900
17          11,662    11,200   10,500
18           6,720     7,300    7,400
19          11,653    11,300   10,100
20           7,592     8,300    6,700
21          11,631    11,800   11,400
22           8,275     8,200    9,200
23          11,642    12,300   12,100
24           6,694     7,800    7,500
25          11,776    10,200   10,600
26           7,740     8,100    7,900
27          11,757    10,900   10,600
28           8,023     7,300    8,700
29          11,579    11,400    9,900
30           6,773     7,500    7,000
31          11,490    11,000   12,500
32           7,324     9,000    8,500
33          11,674    11,700   10,900
34           8,221     6,900    9,700
35          11,526    11,000   12,200
36           6,640     7,600    6,700
37          11,447    11,700   11,100
38           7,249     7,600    5,100
39          11,614    10,100   11,000
40           8,207     6,600    9,100
41          11,521    10,600   12,100
42           6,659     8,000    6,800
43          11,663     8,700   12,100
44           7,554     4,900    7,300
45          11,470     9,300   12,200
46           7,863     8,100    8,000
47          11,500    11,400   11,200
48           6,498     6,900    5,800
49          11,286     8,600    8,900
50           7,412     8,700    7,900
51          11,589    11,600   10,900
52           8,321     8,300   10,200
53          11,542    11,100   10,100
54           6,602     7,300    6,600
55          11,510    11,900   11,200
56           7,668     7,400    7,900
57          11,581     8,800    9,600
58           7,804     7,600    9,700
59          11,465    11,700   12,000
60           6,657     8,000    5,900
61          11,384    11,000   11,400
62           7,291     6,500    8,800
63          11,529    10,200   11,000
64           8,102     8,200    7,400
65          11,470    11,300   11,300
66           6,639     7,300    7,400
67          11,404    10,500   11,800
68           7,256     9,700    9,400
69          11,427    11,300   10,800
70           8,014     7,600    5,500
71          11,703    12,000   10,700
72           6,641     7,300    7,400
73          11,464    11,200   10,800
74           7,483     9,200    8,300
75          11,460    11,300   11,300
76           8,146     8,400    8,700
77          11,484     9,100   10,700
78           6,462     6,700    6,100
79          11,379    11,300   10,500
80           7,236     6,700    7,200
81          11,361    11,200   11,100
82           8,064     8,300    8,100
83          11,512    10,500   11,600
84           6,545     7,500    7,100
85          11,224    10,900   12,200
86           7,430    10,200    5,500
87          11,335     8,500   11,700
88           8,059     8,200    7,700
89          11,226     8,800   11,100
90           6,647     7,100    7,100
91          11,358     8,500   11,100
92           7,443     7,900    4,500
93          11,306     9,300   11,300
94           7,970     7,300    9,500
95          11,158     8,900   10,000
96           6,416     7,200    6,900
97          11,240     8,700   10,900
98           7,161     6,600    7,500
99          11,220     9,200   12,500
100          7,879     8,200    9,900
101         11,130     9,000   11,000
102          6,528     6,200    6,700
103         11,092     8,400   10,300
104          7,446     5,400    6,300
105         11,031     8,800    9,800
106          8,220     6,500   10,400
107         11,156     8,400    9,500
108          6,339     7,200    6,700
109         10,929    11,700   11,300
110          7,394     6,100    9,800
111         11,056    10,600        0
112          7,928     8,400        0
113         10,942    10,900        0
114          6,361     7,200        0
115         10,919    12,100        0
116          7,461     8,600        0

Note:  The "Other Averages" above are based solely on 1M point games with killscreens that had complete data available in kongtracker and were not played by Billy Mitchell. I can modify this criteria with minimal effort, so I'm open to suggestions here if other criteria might be more suitable (like excluding games with more modern point pressing techniques for example) and this approach is deemed worthwhile in general.

Would more work on this that could offer some statistical analysis like identifying variance or z-scores as well as looking at boards by type (e.g. barrel, rivet, elevator, pie) be of interest or do you think this is not worth the effort?

Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: xelnia on February 28, 2018, 05:29:03 pm
Would more work on this that could offer some statistical analysis like identifying variance or z-scores as well as looking at boards by type (e.g. barrel, rivet, elevator, pie) be of interest or do you think this is not worth the effort?

I'm a big fan (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=1996.0) of statistical analysis. So, in general, I think it's a worthwhile effort. In regards to Billy's scores specifically, I think it's probably a dead end. Every WR or PB is an outlier, all the top players have some kind of outlier in their top games (Robbie and pies, Dean and barrels, Wes and springs, John and rivets, etc.). So, it's easy to find "something" if you look hard enough. I imagine it would be incredibly difficult, but to get any sort of meaningful statistical analysis of Billy's games, you'd have to quantify the odds of him surviving every decision he makes in his games. As it stands, it doesn't pass the eye test.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Sqrlmonger on February 28, 2018, 06:25:11 pm
Would more work on this that could offer some statistical analysis like identifying variance or z-scores as well as looking at boards by type (e.g. barrel, rivet, elevator, pie) be of interest or do you think this is not worth the effort?

I'm a big fan (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=1996.0) of statistical analysis. So, in general, I think it's a worthwhile effort. In regards to Billy's scores specifically, I think it's probably a dead end. Every WR or PB is an outlier, all the top players have some kind of outlier in their top games (Robbie and pies, Dean and barrels, Wes and springs, John and rivets, etc.). So, it's easy to find "something" if you look hard enough. I imagine it would be incredibly difficult, but to get any sort of meaningful statistical analysis of Billy's games, you'd have to quantify the odds of him surviving every decision he makes in his games. As it stands, it doesn't pass the eye test.

Thanks for the feedback, and I do agree just a single outlier is not even close to sufficient to make any sort of claims re: Billy's scores.  Having said that, if the notion is that MAME was used to construct some of these scores, I do wonder how the random nature of a legitimate game would not be altered in some way. Though again, it may be very difficult to find how it is altered in a way that is statistically significant.

More specifically, the approach I had envisioned was to avoid the need to quantify individual decisions by focusing on the degree to which some board scores were outliers.  Analyzing these outliers in a vacuum is certainly doomed to failure for lack of context, but in comparison to the rate of outliers of peer games of the era we should be able to address that need for context. 

With all of that said, I do lack domain knowledge specific to DK so I may not be aware of specific challenges that you have already encountered in your previous efforts (like those from your link).

edit: I do want to add the specific concern you raise about WR games being outliers by definition, is, I believe, addressed to a large degree by focusing on 1m+ point games as so-called "peer games" all of which, I would think, could be considered outliers.  I concede the pool may need more refinement, but I do think that refinement is possible.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: JCHarrist on March 03, 2018, 12:54:19 pm
Upon closer examination of the 1.05M tape, it appears to me that the game was paused when the recording was started.

This is the standard Donkey Kong attract mode transition into the title screen. Note that after Jumpman dies and does his death tumble, the attract screen transitions into the title screen where the DONKEY KONG logo is immediately flashing red and blue. It flashes red every other frame 24 times before returning to solid blue for the remainder of the screen.




Now take a look at the start of the 1.05M tape. As the DONKEY KONG logo comes into view, it is solid blue for 42 frames before it starts flashing , and then only flashes 15 times. This would seem to be a clear indication that the game playback was paused when the recording started and unpaused 1.4 seconds later.


Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: f_symbols on March 03, 2018, 01:57:09 pm
Is that good?  <Allen>

 Camp- <Billy>  It was burn-in on the monitor.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: SHLONKY on March 05, 2018, 06:37:59 pm

Now take a look at the start of the 1.05M tape. As the DONKEY KONG logo comes into view, it is solid blue for 42 frames before it starts flashing , and then only flashes 15 times. This would seem to be a clear indication that the game playback was paused when the recording started and unpaused 1.4 seconds later.


In my first post here i put forward a few points that would suggest the original recording was not done on vcr.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: maximumsteve on March 06, 2018, 06:24:20 pm
 Looking at the 2 links, there just isn’t enough to make any kind of evaluations. Here is why...

The Image that is captured is shaky... Then you also see the word play in the corner which is also shaky but NOT a matching shake with the image. And whatever device used to capture to computer would not produce a “play” text when recording.

So I believe we are watching the recording OF a recording of a recording.  What was captured to the computer was played. And what was played was already a copy. So having the original ready at start for the recorder to copy so you see the words play. And the final Recording to computer is a copy of a copy.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: PreacherPatriot76 on March 08, 2018, 06:51:24 am
Looking at the 2 links, there just isn’t enough to make any kind of evaluations. Here is why...

The Image that is captured is shaky... Then you also see the word play in the corner which is also shaky but NOT a matching shake with the image. And whatever device used to capture to computer would not produce a “play” text when recording.

So I believe we are watching the recording OF a recording of a recording.  What was captured to the computer was played. And what was played was already a copy. So having the original ready at start for the recorder to copy so you see the words play. And the final Recording to computer is a copy of a copy.

That won't cause any changes to how the images are displayed. That all comes down to the monitor used in the cabinet vs. the computer monitor used in MAME gaming. The monitor used in the Donkey Kong cabinet is a Sanyo 5JOUTB22 19-inch 90° that uses video from the display PCB that passes into an image inverter before it hits the display. MAME doesn't do this image inversion and the appearance of the elements that make up an image is all dependent upon the video card in the computer. It will only display the image as the video card processes it and it does it out of order compared to the native cabinet hardware.

Now my two cents on the entire thing. I am not affiliated with anyone in the Donkey Kong community, but I have been a gamer since Pong in the 1970's.

Why are you defending a man who lied about getting the first perfect score in Pac-Man? The first person to do that was Bill Bastable who did it in 1988. There was a newspaper article written up about it and he has the picture of the kill screen.
One thing I do not understand with a community is the defense of a man who is a known liar and a cheat. From the very beginning Billy Mitchell and Walter Day, both of them have been running a scam. With Billy Mitchell funding Walter Day the entire time is a severe conflict of interest. Would you be so accepting of a judge that was also the plaintiff in a court case? No you wouldn't. So why does Billy Mitchell get a pass?

Have you all heard of the Fruit of the Poisonous Tree legal doctrine?

Quote
The "fruit of the poisonous tree" doctrine is an offspring of the Exclusionary Rule. The exclusionary rule mandates that evidence obtained from an illegal arrest, unreasonable search, or coercive interrogation must be excluded from trial. Under the fruit of the poisonous tree doctrine, evidence is also excluded from trial if it was gained through evidence uncovered in an illegal arrest, unreasonable search, or coercive interrogation. Like the exclusionary rule, the fruit of the poisonous tree doctrine was established primarily to deter law enforcement from violating rights against unreasonable searches and seizures.

https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Fruit+of+the+Poisonous+Tree

How it applies to Billy Mitchell and this entire mess is that since Walter Day and Billy Mitchell have lied, excluded Billy Bastable from the proper place of being the first person to get a perfect Pac-Man score, and other highly unethical and immoral actions taints all of what both have done. Billy Mitchell funded Twin Galaxies and kept Walter Day afloat and that relationship goes back to the 1980's with Walter's arcade Twin Galaxies going under then being bailed out by Billy Mitchell and other pro-gamers. If that doesn't ring alarms then I don't know what will.

Good day and God bless y'all.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Mary McManus on March 09, 2018, 06:22:23 am
I can hook MAME DK up to a 1986 WG K7000 or 1983 GO7-CBO monitor via direct RGB (no A/V or composite video conversion board involved). Only the Arcade VGA and Jpac from Ultra Marc are used.

The game will run at it's native resolution at its correct 15Khz frequency Anyone try this?
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: maximumsteve on March 09, 2018, 07:31:42 am
The order differences can be seen in the example used in original accusations. Mame draws barrels and Kong at separate times and arcade does it together.
What some are holding on to is the arcade producing a swipe effect in drawing up the stage and mame doing a clean popup of the stage building. Many are missing the fact that the swipe is produced by the screen and NOT the pcb. And mame's captures are NOT produced from a screen recording but direct snapshots of the sequence from memory. This will be explained in more detail soon.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: xelnia on March 09, 2018, 07:48:16 am
The order differences can be seen in the example used in original accusations. Mame draws barrels and Kong at separate times and arcade does it together.
What some are holding on to is the arcade producing a swipe effect in drawing up the stage and mame doing a clean popup of the stage building. Many are missing the fact that the swipe is produced by the screen and NOT the pcb. And mame's captures are NOT produced from a screen recording but direct snapshots of the sequence from memory. This will be explained in more detail soon.

Neither arcade nor MAME build the entire level in one frame/pass...regardless of display method or MAME version. This is absolutely irrefutable. It's the differences in how the platforms build their scenes, step-by-step, that expose the original source. I'll give Carlos the benefit of the doubt and assume that he knows how CRTs work in general, but he clearly doesn't understand how DK hardware works specifically, and how it relates to MAME. At least three unique direct capture methods have been created and dozens of new examples of footage have shown my original assertions to be correct. So far, in 5 weeks, Billy has produced nothing.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: bensweeneyonbass on March 09, 2018, 08:31:49 am
snip:

At least three unique direct capture methods have been created and dozens of new examples of footage have shown my original assertions to be correct.

THIS

If I hear any more talk about how the monitor is producing this or that, I'm gonna crap myself.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: timhett on March 09, 2018, 08:50:19 am
snip:

At least three unique direct capture methods have been created and dozens of new examples of footage have shown my original assertions to be correct.

THIS

If I hear any more talk about how the monitor is producing this or that, I'm gonna crap myself.

what about screen burn????  Kappa
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: YesAffinity on March 09, 2018, 08:51:55 am
Many are missing the fact that the swipe is produced by the screen and NOT the pcb. And mame's captures are NOT produced from a screen recording but direct snapshots of the sequence from memory. This will be explained in more detail soon.
Not true.  This was explained in the OP:

"Real DK hardware, on the other hand, generates video in a "rolling shutter" fashion: the video generator scans left-to-right/bottom-to-top, while the Z80 builds the screen in memory from the opposite direction right-to-left, top-to-bottom. Both video generation and the Z80 are running concurrently with no "snapshots". The result is that it becomes fairly easy to determine WHAT generated the image based on HOW the image has been generated."

I have documented the "swipe" effect in 2 different direct feed setups (direct feed from game board):
1) My original direct feed setup - DK 2-board stack edge connector to JROK v4.1 to component output
2) New test setup - DK 2-board stack to Nintendo inverter to Wei-Ya CV-04 to component output

I was actually also able to replicate it unintentionally with MAME .122 feeding video into the cab via a Gonbes VGA-to-RGB -> Nintendo inverter board -> Sanyo 20EZ.  Inp playback was initiated with the -flipx and -flipy arguements, to make it display in the proper orientation.  It was suggested that enabling the "waitvsync" option in the mame.ini would eliminate this effect, but I haven't tested that.

https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/176004-Dispute-Jeremy-Young-Arcade-Donkey-Kong-Points-Hammer-Allowed-Player-Billy-L-Mitchell-Score-1-062-800?p=952596&viewfull=1#post952596

The point is, it is possible to replicate this swipe effect in MAME, but from all of my extensive testing, the absence of the swipe effect only exists when the source is MAME.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: homerwannabee on March 09, 2018, 09:04:14 am
Screens from the beginning have been used to project things onto them.  That's always been their use.  They don't change arcade to a certain version of MAME over 10 years ago.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: YesAffinity on March 09, 2018, 09:18:40 am
I can hook MAME DK up to a 1986 WG K7000 or 1983 GO7-CBO monitor via direct RGB (no A/V or composite video conversion board involved). Only the Arcade VGA and Jpac from Ultra Marc are used.

The game will run at it's native resolution at its correct 15Khz frequency Anyone try this?
Yes, extensively.

https://www.youtube.com/user/NoAffinity/videos?sort=dd&view=0&shelf_id=0

MAME .122->ArcadeVGA->JPAC->WG K7000
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: PreacherPatriot76 on March 09, 2018, 09:24:03 am
The order differences can be seen in the example used in original accusations. Mame draws barrels and Kong at separate times and arcade does it together.
What some are holding on to is the arcade producing a swipe effect in drawing up the stage and mame doing a clean popup of the stage building. Many are missing the fact that the swipe is produced by the screen and NOT the pcb. And mame's captures are NOT produced from a screen recording but direct snapshots of the sequence from memory. This will be explained in more detail soon.

Incorrect, since the monitor doesn't dictate the order in either the arcade cab or the MAME PC.

Arcade Cab: The Video PCB interpreting the ROM data builds the level. Only the monitor displays it in the order the Video PCB has built the level. The extent of what the monitor displays is based upon the frequency of the CRT electron gun uses to shoot electrons at the phosphorus inside the tube and the actual operation of the gun which always starts at the top left then works its way down. How this interacts with the Video PCB is that the PCB is tuned specifically to the frequency of the electron gun's frequency and scan line pattern.

MAME PC CRT Monitor: MAME sends the video information out and there is no guarantee that the video hardware will match the frequency of a CRT monitor's electron gun. MAME requires a broad spectrum of frequencies as it supports tens of thousands of arcade games that each use a unique frequency set up and tuned to specific hardware. Since this is all emulated it will never be accurate to the actual hardware. This desync between the video card and the monitor combined with all CRT's starting with the upper left corner highlights this with the out of sync rendering captured on film from actual hardware. The only way to remove this desync is to code MAME to hit specific frequencies for the video card and monitors which will be a nigh impossible task as there are thousands of different video cards and monitors worldwide and function differently even on the same chipset as the manufacturers decide how the timings etc... all work.

MAME PC LCD/LED: LCD/LED monitors do not use the upper left corner start point due to the fact it is all digital. The signal to turn on the individual pixels happens far, far faster then what a CRT does and hits all the pixels needed to display their colors at the same time. This will result in behavior that does not work identically with the original hardware. I have a feeling that the behavior using an LED/LCD display on a MAME PC will be close to or identical to the MAME PC CRT. You'd have the display rendering different parts of the frame that is out of sync when compared to the original arcade hardware. This is usually a result of the MAME software sending the rendering information to the video card and the order of the output from said video card directly to the monitor using a digital signal running at a faster speed then the analog signal on top of it having more detail.

Regardless of the method of capture what is displayed is in the order of when it hits the respective input from the video out. It does not affect how the images are displayed. What does happen is the introduction of lag.

MAME's avi record functionality actually records the audio and video streams as uncompressed avi. It isn't reading the memory, but rather dumping the images and sounds of the game directly into the avi format like one records a game onto VHS or other video capture devices. The mng format does the same except the audio and video are separate files. The only difference between a VHS VCR and a video capture software is that the latter is software only while the former is hardware combined with software. The software offloads the computational side of things onto either the video card or the CPU of the PC.

An arcade cabinet's CPU is not powerful enough to handle the computational side of things which is why various recording methods do the actual heavy lifting. A computer from when the Billy Mitchell MAME recordings could go up to 3.5 Ghz which is 3,500 times faster than what the Z80 CPU on the DK Cab. It can handle the recording of game play natively through the video card.

In any case, the monitor does not produce anything. It merely reads the signals provided by the software and hardware that is further up the chain. Think of this as a locomotive. The ROM provides the power with the CPU being the engine. The monitor is the caboose. It contributes nothing to what you see other than display the information provided.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Josephjo on March 09, 2018, 09:35:00 am
The order differences can be seen in the example used in original accusations. Mame draws barrels and Kong at separate times and arcade does it together.
What some are holding on to is the arcade producing a swipe effect in drawing up the stage and mame doing a clean popup of the stage building. Many are missing the fact that the swipe is produced by the screen and NOT the pcb. And mame's captures are NOT produced from a screen recording but direct snapshots of the sequence from memory. This will be explained in more detail soon.

 <popcorn> <popcorn>
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: maximumsteve on March 12, 2018, 03:44:57 pm
OK Folks, here is the Billy Mitchell Technical Dispute Findings and Opinions (Visual Version) from Carlos Pineiro. Please watch and listen. Thank you...

Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: YesAffinity on March 12, 2018, 04:59:39 pm
I responded on the TG thread, not going to repost here, but short version: that video misses the point.  Lots of footage of what it looks like when a camera records the screen, and that's great, but we already have that understanding.  We have learned a USB PC capture card was used - I believe that's new information.  Frames don't last 2/3 second as stated multiple times in the video (1/60, 1/30 or 1/24 of a second, depending on the recording device).  Would be good to get some direct feed gameplay from that setup, although I can't see that in any way changing the current understanding reinforcing that: a camera recording a arcade monitor doesn't look like MAME or arcade direct feed, MAME doesn't look like arcade direct feed, Billy's tapes don't look like arcade direct feed.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: person45 on March 12, 2018, 06:31:51 pm
Here's Billy's defense.

Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Rev John on March 13, 2018, 03:45:20 am
Here's Billy's defense.


Billy says the (actual) DK machine screen loading in the video (conveyor/pie transition) shown look just like MAME.  What crap.  When you compare the footage to the gifs in the first post here they look like an actual DK screen.  I can only imagine that Billy continues to go on like this so that when TG inevitably remove his scores he can claim he doesn't understand / he's so innocent / he's been, dare I say it, cheated.

I hope TG are taking their time because they are checking Billy's other submissions.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: QAOP Spaceman on March 13, 2018, 04:41:13 am
Here's Billy's defense.


(https://i.imgur.com/TprX60X.jpg)
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: JCHarrist on March 13, 2018, 06:00:03 am

Billy says the (actual) DK machine screen loading in the video (conveyor/pie transition) shown look just like MAME.  What crap.  When you compare the footage to the gifs in the first post here they look like an actual DK screen.

Yep, here's the shot in question.

(https://i.imgur.com/VIUDt7Z.jpg)


And here's arcade and MAME:

(https://i.imgur.com/8urVyFn.jpg)



Frankly , there is so much wrong in that video that I don't even know where to start.

However, he did clearly demonstrate that the Two-Bit Score converter does not change the way arcade renders.

(https://i.imgur.com/Jn65gdt.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/DiQTQ73.jpg)

Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: JCHarrist on March 13, 2018, 06:09:10 am
And here he completely contradicts himself:

Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Sqrlmonger on March 13, 2018, 04:53:32 pm
I'm very disappointed in this rebuttal, to say the least.

For instance:






Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: gaknar on March 14, 2018, 10:05:28 am
fellas, i was in ottumwa in 2009 when that video was filmed. i talked at length with the owner of that cabinet. it was a restoration, not originally red, and it did not have an authentic donkey kong board in it. it was either a double donkey kong or a multigame. pointing at this and saying "see the arcade looks like mame" is moot. that is not an original board.

Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: JCHarrist on March 14, 2018, 12:08:11 pm
fellas, i was in ottumwa in 2009 when that video was filmed. i talked at length with the owner of that cabinet. it was a restoration, not originally red, and it did not have an authentic donkey kong board in it. it was either a double donkey kong or a multigame. pointing at this and saying "see the arcade looks like mame" is moot. that is not an original board.

Must be a DDK because that is 100% an arcade transition. MAME would never draw a single ladder at the top like that.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Josephjo on March 14, 2018, 01:18:24 pm


Must be a DDK because that is 100% an arcade transition. MAME would never draw a single ladder at the top like that.

From the same event is that the DK Jnr attract mode that Barra is playing in this clip??

Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: JCHarrist on March 14, 2018, 01:27:29 pm


Must be a DDK because that is 100% an arcade transition. MAME would never draw a single ladder at the top like that.

From the same event is that the DK Jnr attract mode that Barra is playing in this clip??


Haha, yes, I do believe that is DK Junior :D

(https://i.imgur.com/0u0kjYv.jpg)
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: marky_d on March 14, 2018, 01:33:50 pm
I think it's running D2K
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: JCHarrist on March 14, 2018, 01:44:54 pm
I think it's running D2K

I think you're right. That's the foundry board. Not the vines.

(https://i.imgur.com/VH490xu.jpg)
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: SHLONKY on March 18, 2018, 03:14:48 pm
so i hear billy is trying to sue apollo legend now?

Not been around for a couple of weeks due to work, but it seems billys still playing the ignorance game?
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Adam_Mon on March 18, 2018, 04:23:32 pm
 :o 
 <Sanders> "Lawyer up!"

<snek> <snek> <snek> <snek> <snek> <snek> <snek> <snek> <snek> <snek> <snek> <snek> <snek> <snek> <snek>
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: SHLONKY on March 18, 2018, 06:16:27 pm
im nearly upto date with whats happened lately....i see a magical capture card has appeared into the story which confirms my original post that the footage was originally recorded via pc and not vhs!

im not confident it was the PC thats said to be used in carlos video! However, the software looks the same, but the pc looks more modern than in mr childs video, and the capture device looks smaller in carlos video (and a different colour).

The Gigaware company however opened in 2009, and the vhs device shipped with arcsoft showbiz 2 on the disc, which does look like whats on that pc! I cant find a release date for the vhs converter though, but showbiz 2 came out in 2008.
The gigaware converter can still be easily found new today, and carlos box does look very nice for a 18 year old device thats been used a few times! And if it had been in mr childs possession id expect it to look like that receipt and not new!
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Rev John on March 19, 2018, 05:15:41 am
Would more work on this that could offer some statistical analysis like identifying variance or z-scores as well as looking at boards by type (e.g. barrel, rivet, elevator, pie) be of interest or do you think this is not worth the effort?

I'm a big fan (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=1996.0) of statistical analysis. So, in general, I think it's a worthwhile effort. In regards to Billy's scores specifically, I think it's probably a dead end. Every WR or PB is an outlier, all the top players have some kind of outlier in their top games (Robbie and pies, Dean and barrels, Wes and springs, John and rivets, etc.). So, it's easy to find "something" if you look hard enough. I imagine it would be incredibly difficult, but to get any sort of meaningful statistical analysis of Billy's games, you'd have to quantify the odds of him surviving every decision he makes in his games. As it stands, it doesn't pass the eye test.

Thanks for the feedback, and I do agree just a single outlier is not even close to sufficient to make any sort of claims re: Billy's scores.  Having said that, if the notion is that MAME was used to construct some of these scores, I do wonder how the random nature of a legitimate game would not be altered in some way. Though again, it may be very difficult to find how it is altered in a way that is statistically significant.

More specifically, the approach I had envisioned was to avoid the need to quantify individual decisions by focusing on the degree to which some board scores were outliers.  Analyzing these outliers in a vacuum is certainly doomed to failure for lack of context, but in comparison to the rate of outliers of peer games of the era we should be able to address that need for context. 

With all of that said, I do lack domain knowledge specific to DK so I may not be aware of specific challenges that you have already encountered in your previous efforts (like those from your link).

edit: I do want to add the specific concern you raise about WR games being outliers by definition, is, I believe, addressed to a large degree by focusing on 1m+ point games as so-called "peer games" all of which, I would think, could be considered outliers.  I concede the pool may need more refinement, but I do think that refinement is possible.

There is one way to do a statistical analysis which would help identify MAME abuse scores -

The way the 300/500/800 point system breaks down means that a player gets an average 525 points for a blue barrel or pie, and an average 450 points for a fireball.  The scores are determined at 'random' within the game and are not at all controllable by the player.  If you counted the number of blue barrel/pie smashes and fireball smashes in a game played on an arcade machine, you should get close to the expected averages for each smash category.  For example, a typical arcade machine player might get slightly higher than average on pies but slightly lower than average on fireballs over the course of one game, but in general still close to the averages.  These averages are independent of gameplay, it doesn't matter if a player likes to smash lots of pies for example, their average score per pie should still be roughly the expected average.  If a player was abusing MAME and replaying for favourable scoring, I would expect that their smash scores would be generally higher than the expected average for each of the 3 smash categories.  If for example they consistently scored more than the average in each category, maybe over multiple fake MAME video-tape submissions, it would look like the fingerprint of a cheater.  You would have to get stats on each smash in a game though and whether or not 300, 500 or 800 was scored.  You could then calculate how many standard deviations away from the mean someone was and how likely such a feat was.

There was a chart posted on Twitter showing that Billy Mitchell achieved a high proportion of his score from hammer smashes.  I note that he had a good proportion of smashes on rivets, where you can only smash fireballs which overall score less than pies and blue barrels, yet his overall smash average (his "smaverage"?) was still pretty high.  Unfortunately that chart didn't have an exact breakdown for number of actual blue barrels / pies / fireballs smashed so that average scores could not be determined for each.  Maybe Billy Mitchell is so awesome that his method of playing means that the fireballs line up for the slaughter (averaging over 3 fireballs smashed per rivet hammer), but he cannot be so awesome that, for example, he tosses a coin and gets heads 60% of the time.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Firebrandx on March 19, 2018, 10:06:29 pm
I'm posting this here since it's got technical information important to the thread. My apologies for the duplicate response (I had posted it in another thread defending Billy), but this is important new information:

The latest Billy defenders panel tried to use the defense that MAME doesn't show the girder 'finger' or 'tale' until version 0.116, which was well after his videos were submitted. Unfortunately for them, an anonymous tip came in that you can in fact get MAME to display the same anomaly going all the way back to 2001. The trick is to enable cheats, and then change the timing. In versions 0.56 to 0.84, this can be done with the the CPU0 setting and changing it to 99%. Here's the earliest version I was able to run on my computer:

(https://i.imgur.com/v4JZIbD.png)

However, here's where it gets interesting: In August 2004, MAME version 0.85 came out with a new cheat feature: Refresh Rate. In versions 0.85 all the way to version 0.115, you can set the refresh rate to 60.600 and get the EXACT same 'finger' to show up:

(https://i.imgur.com/lfBA6FR.png)

So what's the significance of 60.600 refresh rate? It just so happens to approximately match the arcade DK's refresh rate. As I said, this feature came out in August of 2004, which is well before Billy's tapes surfaced.

Next, here's a photo spread showing some excerpts of Billy's tapes and comparing them to both MAME's 'finger' and how the original hardware looks on that transition:

(https://i.imgur.com/W0KNRDP.jpg)

Keep in mind this doesn't even take into account the myriad of other issues with Billy's tapes matching MAME transitions. This is just one of many. Lastly, now consider that Billy in the latest defense panel FINALLY admitted the board swap video was faked. That right there, even if you ignore all other evidence, is grounds for permanent banning on TG. It's a confessed attempt to deceive the public on a world video game record accomplishment. No matter how much he throws Robert Childs under the bus for it, he was IN that same video, and knew it was a lie. How can Billy defenders even defend him after hearing that confession? It's over for the man. Absolute checkmate.

-FBX
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: gstrain on March 20, 2018, 08:04:23 pm
With regard to the TG dispute on this issue, at 03-17-2018, 05:18 PM Jace Hall posted on the TG dispute thread:
   
Quote from: Jace Hall
We are less than 10 days away from rendering a final decision.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: jdllama on March 21, 2018, 09:21:34 am
Gonna drop this here:


Billy admits the Boomer video was staged, although it was at the request of Robert Childs (who is now an idiot and a liar, which are not my words but Billy's).
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Sock Master on March 21, 2018, 10:52:42 am
We've seen what the transition frames in MAME look like if we adjust MAME's timing parameters (adjusting the CPU speed or the refresh rate) in the TG thread and it showed that the transition frames still do not look like frames from DK hardware.

I was curious to see what it might look like if we were to change timing parameters on DK hardware to see if that could possibly make DK frames look like MAME frames.   I reprogrammed DK's own drawing code to mathematically model the way DK hardware renders video and then made the program run through a range of timing adjustments.

Here are the results.  Keep in mind that this is simply a mathematical simulation and I used MAME to do it.  It was only meant to satisfy my own curiosity.  It does reproduce results very similar to that of actual DK hardware and I think it makes a good visual aid to demonstrate how DK hardware rendering is different from the way older versions of MAME render video.   Even if a DK PCB were hacked to run very different timing it still doesn't render frames that look like MAME.  It can't for the same reason that older versions of MAME won't render frames that look like DK hardware even if you adjust MAME's timing parameters.  They both have very different methods of composing the video and give different results

(https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2055.0;attach=4182;image)
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: WCopeland on March 21, 2018, 10:55:55 am
Robbie explaining that we have only seen the evidence from one side.

There is no reasonable evidence that has yet been presented from the other side.
Everything currently presented by the other side has been torn to shreds.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: LMDAVE on March 21, 2018, 11:07:57 am
Gonna drop this here:


Billy admits the Boomer video was staged, although it was at the request of Robert Childs (who is now an idiot and a liar, which are not my words but Billy's).

I can't imagine anything other than a decision being made that Billy submitted tapes played on MAME given all the facts and proof out there now (even more with Jeff's new rivets sequences). It still blows my mind that there is a mind set that the people bringing these facts forward are not experts, and that Triforce (who self-admittedly knows zero about Donkey Kong and how the game renders) is trying to become the spokesman for defending Billy.

I don't know if Billy's friend Robert Childs was aware that Billy was totally going to throw him under the bus after facts proved that boardswap video was fake. No one, including Billy, came forward with that info until it was 100% proven.  Major character flaw in all involved right there.

But, given where this is going now and the amount of facts and proof out there, and couple that with Billy trying to detach himself from what his friends stupid decisions were, whats to stop him from just saying something like. "They must have set up a MAME machine without me knowing. I don't know MAME from Arcade, I just play the game." Nothing will surprise me at this point now.

 
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: YesAffinity on March 21, 2018, 01:05:17 pm
^Great, scores stricken, Billy keeps his stature because he "didn't know".  Either way it seems the scores are coming down from TG.

I really can't imagine carrying all that weight of the wrong-doing around for so many years, and then having it surface and piece-by-piece getting fully exposed.  From the point of the initial frame-by-frame comparisons, to the irrefutable proof that the board swap was faked, to the most recent revelation that not only was MAME used but also likely tweaked to run at arcade monitor frequency.  FailFish
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Firebrandx on March 21, 2018, 07:05:50 pm
We've seen what the transition frames in MAME look like if we adjust MAME's timing parameters (adjusting the CPU speed or the refresh rate) in the TG thread and it showed that the transition frames still do not look like frames from DK hardware.

I was curious to see what it might look like if we were to change timing parameters on DK hardware to see if that could possibly make DK frames look like MAME frames.   I reprogrammed DK's own drawing code to mathematically model the way DK hardware renders video and then made the program run through a range of timing adjustments.

Here are the results.  Keep in mind that this is simply a mathematical simulation and I used MAME to do it.  It was only meant to satisfy my own curiosity.  It does reproduce results very similar to that of actual DK hardware and I think it makes a good visual aid to demonstrate how DK hardware rendering is different from the way older versions of MAME render video.   Even if a DK PCB were hacked to run very different timing it still doesn't render frames that look like MAME.  It can't for the same reason that older versions of MAME won't render frames that look like DK hardware even if you adjust MAME's timing parameters.  They both have very different methods of composing the video and give different results

Nice work! So even if you HACK the arcade hardware, you STILL cannot get it to mimic the MAME artifacts in Billy's video tapes. Lance Armstrong... er, I mean Billy Mitchell is going down. Maybe he should book an appearance on Oprah and do a full confession. Might even make some cash out of it. :-P
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: hooch66 on March 22, 2018, 05:23:19 am
All the evidence points to it being MAME.

But even beyond that, if he really truly cared and had the skills he could do a score (above what his disputed "tapes" show) live on a neutral machine. Isn't he the one that said only live scores matter?
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Firebrandx on March 23, 2018, 10:53:25 pm
I don't share the sentiment that Billy should somehow be forgiven if he does a legit million point run live. That doeasn't excuse the disgusting lengths he went to in order to not only deceive the public, but actively troll his fellow competitors. Case in point is the 1.047 million run where he intentionally kills off his men at the end. Now that we know the tape is MAME gameplay, it makes perfect sense why he would pull such an absolutely insane stunt: Banking scores on tape using MAME completely takes the element of fear out of the picture. Had he been playing on legit hardware live, there's no way in hell he kills off that world record there.

At any rate, Jace posted the MP4 rips in the dispute thread. I spent 3 hours screen-capping every girder transition that appears in his 1.047 million recording. Of the 58 girder transitions (some were killing off his men and one attract mode at the end)...  31 out of 58 screens showed the girder finger. That's over 50%! Now when you factor in the recording is 30 FPS from a 60.6 output with tape wobble, it perfectly falls into the law of overages that about half the time the girder finger frame is skipped in the video.

My zip package of all 58 screen caps can be downloaded from the dispute thread:

https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/176004-Dispute-Jeremy-Young-Arcade-Donkey-Kong-Points-Hammer-Allowed-Player-Billy-L-Mitchell-Score-1-062-800?p=959163&viewfull=1#post959163 (https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/176004-Dispute-Jeremy-Young-Arcade-Donkey-Kong-Points-Hammer-Allowed-Player-Billy-L-Mitchell-Score-1-062-800?p=959163&viewfull=1#post959163)
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: smf on March 24, 2018, 03:49:41 am
Has anyone else noticed that the direct recording of a pcb on:

https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=1315.msg24208#msg24208
https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=1413.msg25141#msg25141

Has the score on the right of the screen, but the tapes on the twin galaxies thread have the image rotated 180 degrees and so the score is on the left?

MAME -norotate is supposed to match a direct recording of a pcb, but it has always displayed it like the video tape.

Is there an explanation for the 180 degree flip from the direct recording, or is MAME (and the videos uploaded to twin galaxies) just wrong?
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: SHLONKY on March 25, 2018, 06:32:51 pm
Has anyone else noticed that the direct recording of a pcb on:

https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=1315.msg24208#msg24208
https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=1413.msg25141#msg25141

Has the score on the right of the screen, but the tapes on the twin galaxies thread have the image rotated 180 degrees and so the score is on the left?

MAME -norotate is supposed to match a direct recording of a pcb, but it has always displayed it like the video tape.

Is there an explanation for the 180 degree flip from the direct recording, or is MAME (and the videos uploaded to twin galaxies) just wrong?

the explanation is whoever recorded the first 2 tapes screwed up and had the image rotated the wrong way! Or as you say, the way mame shows it! ...theyd noticed by tape 3 and rotated it the right way.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: smf on March 26, 2018, 05:10:25 am
the explanation is whoever recorded the first 2 tapes screwed up and had the image rotated the wrong way! Or as you say, the way mame shows it! ...theyd noticed by tape 3 and rotated it the right way.

If that is the case, then I'd love to hear their explanation for how it accidentally got rotated 180 degrees.

Getting it wrong in MAME is easy, getting it wrong when directly recording from the PCB is hard.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: YesAffinity on March 26, 2018, 08:33:07 am
This is one of the points of contention, which I believe Jeremy addressed in the original POST, but yes, folks are aware and I don't believe camp Billy has in any way addressed this.  They are focused on proving that the girder finger is just a figment of everyone's imagination.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: bensweeneyonbass on March 26, 2018, 01:11:27 pm
 BibleThump BibleThump BibleThump
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: YesAffinity on March 26, 2018, 02:32:10 pm
“Today, he is co-founder of the Kong Off Donkey World Champoionships”

Uhhh….what?
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Sqrlmonger on March 26, 2018, 02:42:01 pm

Thanks for the feedback, and I do agree just a single outlier is not even close to sufficient to make any sort of claims re: Billy's scores.  Having said that, if the notion is that MAME was used to construct some of these scores, I do wonder how the random nature of a legitimate game would not be altered in some way. Though again, it may be very difficult to find how it is altered in a way that is statistically significant.

More specifically, the approach I had envisioned was to avoid the need to quantify individual decisions by focusing on the degree to which some board scores were outliers.  Analyzing these outliers in a vacuum is certainly doomed to failure for lack of context, but in comparison to the rate of outliers of peer games of the era we should be able to address that need for context. 

With all of that said, I do lack domain knowledge specific to DK so I may not be aware of specific challenges that you have already encountered in your previous efforts (like those from your link).

edit: I do want to add the specific concern you raise about WR games being outliers by definition, is, I believe, addressed to a large degree by focusing on 1m+ point games as so-called "peer games" all of which, I would think, could be considered outliers.  I concede the pool may need more refinement, but I do think that refinement is possible.

There is one way to do a statistical analysis which would help identify MAME abuse scores -

The way the 300/500/800 point system breaks down means that a player gets an average 525 points for a blue barrel or pie, and an average 450 points for a fireball.  The scores are determined at 'random' within the game and are not at all controllable by the player.  If you counted the number of blue barrel/pie smashes and fireball smashes in a game played on an arcade machine, you should get close to the expected averages for each smash category.  For example, a typical arcade machine player might get slightly higher than average on pies but slightly lower than average on fireballs over the course of one game, but in general still close to the averages.  These averages are independent of gameplay, it doesn't matter if a player likes to smash lots of pies for example, their average score per pie should still be roughly the expected average.  If a player was abusing MAME and replaying for favourable scoring, I would expect that their smash scores would be generally higher than the expected average for each of the 3 smash categories.  If for example they consistently scored more than the average in each category, maybe over multiple fake MAME video-tape submissions, it would look like the fingerprint of a cheater.  You would have to get stats on each smash in a game though and whether or not 300, 500 or 800 was scored.  You could then calculate how many standard deviations away from the mean someone was and how likely such a feat was.

There was a chart posted on Twitter showing that Billy Mitchell achieved a high proportion of his score from hammer smashes.  I note that he had a good proportion of smashes on rivets, where you can only smash fireballs which overall score less than pies and blue barrels, yet his overall smash average (his "smaverage"?) was still pretty high.  Unfortunately that chart didn't have an exact breakdown for number of actual blue barrels / pies / fireballs smashed so that average scores could not be determined for each.  Maybe Billy Mitchell is so awesome that his method of playing means that the fireballs line up for the slaughter (averaging over 3 fireballs smashed per rivet hammer), but he cannot be so awesome that, for example, he tosses a coin and gets heads 60% of the time.

Apologies for not responding sooner, I had been dealing with some health issues over the past week that had me unable to do much of anything. Thankfully things are much better now.

On the issue of the stats analysis I think at this point I am planning to hold off as I just finished catching up with the TG dispute thread (wow it was like 40 pages of updates filled with a lot of new info! A hearty "Great Work!" to those involved BTW) and I'm not sure at this point how much the stats analysis will add.  I think there is probably something there but the important thing has already been demonstrated, which is to say that it was shown that the RNG was favorable, digging in to quantify the 1 in X chance at this point won't add very much above and beyond what we already know (e.g. that it was in fact favorable RNG and thus Mr Mitchell cannot claim that it was low RNG and thus served no benefit to him).

In essence, I think in light of the overwhelming MAME evidence with the new understanding of the way finger girder transitions can occur in older versions of MAME and the identification of the girder collapse transition the fact of MAME use is conclusively proven barring remarkable and reproducible new evidence.  As such the stats question is only relevant to show that yes in fact the runs are on the high RNG side speaking to the motive for using MAME.  The degree to which they are beneficial seems, to me at least, irrelevant given the rest of the facts in evidence.

edit: edited for grammar and to remove excessive quote nesting
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: dwayne on March 26, 2018, 10:52:45 pm
“Today, he is co-founder of the Kong Off Donkey World Champoionships”

Uhhh….what?

the lying no no bounds till we put an end to it by getting the truth exposed!
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: smf on March 27, 2018, 02:12:21 am
This is one of the points of contention, which I believe Jeremy addressed in the original POST

It seems I misunderstood the original post. I've changed the orientation you get with mame -norotate in 0.196.

Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Sqrlmonger on March 30, 2018, 10:30:16 pm
Jace recently posted (https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/176004-Dispute-Jeremy-Young-Arcade-Donkey-Kong-Points-Hammer-Allowed-Player-Billy-L-Mitchell-Score-1-062-800?p=961122&viewfull=1#post961122) a bunch of information regarding Mr Mitchell's recording methods and how they seem to be capturing a mono-chromatic recording.

I don't have a great deal of expertise on this but I believe this is most likely due to a mismatch in subcarrier frequency that is actually carrying the color.

Essentially the signal is broken up into luminance and chrominance (and some other bits and bobs as I recall) and luminance is enough to get a B/W image and chrominance gives you your color.  But in order to get the color right the recording device has to have a key reference to the base or zero-level frequency is to make sense of it.  I think a lot of hardware will throw it away if it figures out the signal is garbage which is why you get a B/W recording.

I'm speculating a bit (more) on this next bit but I believe the monitors handle it to some degree because they are actually hooked up to the source during playback, but don't hold me to that bit.

Based on NTSC standards a normal domestic (US) VCR is probably expecting a ~3.58 Mhz chrominance subcarrier frequency but I have no idea what the setup is actually generating.  Taking a look at some of the PAL standards it's possible there are some VCRs out there that just might get some color out of the setup, but no telling if it would be accurate.

I'm not sure how much of this information would be news to anyone at TG, but it's what I could come up with scraping my brain plus a few minutes of googling.  Take it with a huge grain of salt and verify with others before taking it as gospel, etc.. etc..
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: YesAffinity on March 31, 2018, 06:30:35 am
^Good info.

The crystal on the TBS encoder is 3.57mhz.  The instructions say to convert it to PAL, replace the crystal with one of frequency 4.48 mhz and move a jumper.  I tried moving the jumper alone, and got a black/white signal out of it that was black/white on all devices.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Sqrlmonger on March 31, 2018, 12:49:38 pm
^Good info.

The crystal on the TBS encoder is 3.57mhz.  The instructions say to convert it to PAL, replace the crystal with one of frequency 4.48 mhz and move a jumper.  I tried moving the jumper alone, and got a black/white signal out of it that was black/white on all devices.

Hopefully it is of some use to you guys, I wasn't sure if I was sticking my nose into something you already knew way more about or not.

Regardless, I will say I was rounding the 3.58 Mhz number I listed, it's actually 3.579545 MHz for the NTSC color standard subcarrier frequency (had to look it up) and it is in fact 4.43361875 Mhz for the PAL.

However, when I was snooping about I came across something I didn't really remember at all which is this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTSC#NTSC_4.43

Essentially, there is another NTSC format called NTSC 4.43 which uses a 4.43 Mhz color subcarrier frequency. It is theoretically possible this is what you guys are dealing with. For those who knew about this feel free to laugh, my knowledge of these standards is not the greatest. So if there are those with better knowledge please step in and I will happily let you folks sort this out.

As such, again, please keep in mind I am just piecing this all back together myself, so take everything with a grain of salt, etc.. etc..

Cheers~
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Sock Master on March 31, 2018, 01:30:40 pm
Jace recently posted (https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/176004-Dispute-Jeremy-Young-Arcade-Donkey-Kong-Points-Hammer-Allowed-Player-Billy-L-Mitchell-Score-1-062-800?p=961122&viewfull=1#post961122) a bunch of information regarding Mr Mitchell's recording methods and how they seem to be capturing a mono-chromatic recording.

The reason the Two-Bit and other similar RGB to NTSC devices will not generate a proper composite color output is because these devices use the H-Sync pulses that are output by DK hardware to figure out where the colorburst reference should be inserted into the composite video signal.
Both H and V syncs generated by DK hardware are not up to NTSC specification.   An RGB monitor wouldn't care if the H-Sync is the wrong width - it only cares that it's there at all, so it'll happily display video.   NTSC composite video on the other hand contains additional reference signals at specific points in time to tell the receiver the frequency and phase of the color carrier that's needed in order to decode colors.
The short explanation is if the H-Sync pulses are too wide or too narrow the RGB to NTSC converter will not insert the colorburst signal into the correct time window.   If the signal is not positioned correctly a VCR/TV/etc will have difficulty locking to the color carrier, hence have difficulty decoding the colors or even fall back to legacy B&W mode.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: smf on April 01, 2018, 12:36:20 am
Based on NTSC standards a normal domestic (US) VCR is probably expecting a ~3.58 Mhz chrominance subcarrier frequency but I have no idea what the setup is actually generating.  Taking a look at some of the PAL standards it's possible there are some VCRs out there that just might get some color out of the setup, but no telling if it would be accurate.

There is an added complication because VHS doesn't have enough bandwidth to store the NTSC signal.

https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/173626/video-home-system-vhs-bandwidth

The VHS recorder assumes a lot about the incoming signal and won't tolerate anything that doesn't closely match the NTSC specification. Home computers in the 1980's didn't output legal NTSC (or PAL) signals either, good enough for monitors but a lot of VHS decks had problems. Some VHS decks are more tollerant than others (both recording and playing back), some people could only get B&W recordings while others could get colour.

It's pretty difficult to create an interlaced output from a direct feed from an unmodified donkey kong board, yet on the TG thread they are talking about odd and even frames. It's possible that when the VHS was transcoded the software expected the source signal to be interlaced and that has introduced artifacts.

Or the donkey kong board may have been hacked to produce a more valid NTSC signal, which will change the cpu's timing relative to the video output. Every scan line in a progressive frame is the same length, while an interlaced frame has one line that is only half the length of all the others. This affects the frame rate, changing the frame rate in MAME is what caused the transitions to change. This might be enough to create the MAME transition from an arcade board and will likely change the random number generation as well. Billy might be correct in saying it's not MAME and he may not have intentionally cheated, but it doesn't mean the score is valid.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Sqrlmonger on April 01, 2018, 05:04:29 am
The reason the Two-Bit and other similar RGB to NTSC devices will not generate a proper composite color output is because these devices use the H-Sync pulses that are output by DK hardware to figure out where the colorburst reference should be inserted into the composite video signal.
Both H and V syncs generated by DK hardware are not up to NTSC specification.   An RGB monitor wouldn't care if the H-Sync is the wrong width - it only cares that it's there at all, so it'll happily display video.   NTSC composite video on the other hand contains additional reference signals at specific points in time to tell the receiver the frequency and phase of the color carrier that's needed in order to decode colors.
The short explanation is if the H-Sync pulses are too wide or too narrow the RGB to NTSC converter will not insert the colorburst signal into the correct time window.   If the signal is not positioned correctly a VCR/TV/etc will have difficulty locking to the color carrier, hence have difficulty decoding the colors or even fall back to legacy B&W mode.

A lot of this is good added info, thanks.  But to clarify when you're talking about the "correct time window" we are just talking about lining up with the zero phase of the sub-carrier frequency, no? If not, I would be grateful if you could explain my misunderstanding. Thanks!~

There is an added complication because VHS doesn't have enough bandwidth to store the NTSC signal.

https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/173626/video-home-system-vhs-bandwidth

The VHS recorder assumes a lot about the incoming signal and won't tolerate anything that doesn't closely match the NTSC specification. Home computers in the 1980's didn't output legal NTSC (or PAL) signals either, good enough for monitors but a lot of VHS decks had problems. Some VHS decks are more tollerant than others (both recording and playing back), some people could only get B&W recordings while others could get colour.

It's pretty difficult to create an interlaced output from a direct feed from an unmodified donkey kong board, yet on the TG thread they are talking about odd and even frames. It's possible that when the VHS was transcoded the software expected the source signal to be interlaced and that has introduced artifacts.

Or the donkey kong board may have been hacked to produce a more valid NTSC signal, which will change the cpu's timing relative to the video output. Every scan line in a progressive frame is the same length, while an interlaced frame has one line that is only half the length of all the others. This affects the frame rate, changing the frame rate in MAME is what caused the transitions to change. This might be enough to create the MAME transition from an arcade board and will likely change the random number generation as well. Billy might be correct in saying it's not MAME and he may not have intentionally cheated, but it doesn't mean the score is valid.

That all makes sense...except I think where the TG thread is discussing the odd/even frames they are not referring to the interlaced frames generated from the source as even/odd so much as they are talking about the issue resulting from a 60.6 Hz source captured by a 30 Hz medium. Which of course results in only half of the interlaced source frames being captured.  So where you are referring to source frames as interlaced odd/even frames (accurately so) they are referring to the frames recorded as odd or even in terms of which of the interlaced source frame is actually captured and which is lost to 2:1 source:medium refresh rate discrepancy.

Hopefully, that made sense and I actually understood you anyways.

Cheers~
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Sock Master on April 01, 2018, 09:16:33 am
A lot of this is good added info, thanks.  But to clarify when you're talking about the "correct time window" we are just talking about lining up with the zero phase of the sub-carrier frequency, no? If not, I would be grateful if you could explain my misunderstanding. Thanks!~

I don't actually have a Two-Bit RGB to NTSC converter to check what its output looks like, but I do have a different RGB to NTSC converter that works fine when connected to other devices.  When connected to a DK PCB, it also exhibits black and white output.

Here's a photo of what the composite hsync / colorburst looks like on a scope.   Sorry for the terrible picture quality, it was difficult to take a photo of the oscilloscope.

It seems the syncs coming from the DK PCB confuse the RGB-to-NTSC chip and the composite sync and colorburst is pretty messed up looking - The signal levels are wrong. The timing is messed up. The colorburst seems to be too short.  I haven't made full sense of the why yet, but it's safe to say most NTSC devices are going to have trouble decoding colors from this video signal.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: colecomeister on April 01, 2018, 03:25:03 pm
Based on NTSC standards a normal domestic (US) VCR is probably expecting a ~3.58 Mhz chrominance subcarrier frequency but I have no idea what the setup is actually generating.  Taking a look at some of the PAL standards it's possible there are some VCRs out there that just might get some color out of the setup, but no telling if it would be accurate.

There is an added complication because VHS doesn't have enough bandwidth to store the NTSC signal.

https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/173626/video-home-system-vhs-bandwidth

The VHS recorder assumes a lot about the incoming signal and won't tolerate anything that doesn't closely match the NTSC specification. Home computers in the 1980's didn't output legal NTSC (or PAL) signals either, good enough for monitors but a lot of VHS decks had problems. Some VHS decks are more tollerant than others (both recording and playing back), some people could only get B&W recordings while others could get colour.

It's pretty difficult to create an interlaced output from a direct feed from an unmodified donkey kong board, yet on the TG thread they are talking about odd and even frames. It's possible that when the VHS was transcoded the software expected the source signal to be interlaced and that has introduced artifacts.

Or the donkey kong board may have been hacked to produce a more valid NTSC signal, which will change the cpu's timing relative to the video output. Every scan line in a progressive frame is the same length, while an interlaced frame has one line that is only half the length of all the others. This affects the frame rate, changing the frame rate in MAME is what caused the transitions to change. This might be enough to create the MAME transition from an arcade board and will likely change the random number generation as well. Billy might be correct in saying it's not MAME and he may not have intentionally cheated, but it doesn't mean the score is valid.

The DK hack sounds like it might be an interesting project if someone was curious enough. In the case of Billy, though, he's gone to great lengths to testify that, in order to avoid further King of Kong "shenanigans" about PCB tampering, he had the DK PCB independently verified as original/unmodified before and after he put up his 1.05 and 1.06 million scores.

http://www.mtv.com/news/1565744/donk...s-to-prove-it/
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: smf on April 02, 2018, 01:34:12 pm
That all makes sense...except I think where the TG thread is discussing the odd/even frames they are not referring to the interlaced frames generated from the source as even/odd so much as they are talking about the issue resulting from a 60.6 Hz source captured by a 30 Hz medium.

Broadcast quality NTSC is interlaced, but lots of systems output non standard NTSC and some VHS decks are tollerant enough to record them in color. This was posted a while back, it's full of wrong.
 
https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/176004-Dispute-Jeremy-Young-Arcade-Donkey-Kong-Points-Hammer-Allowed-Player-Billy-L-Mitchell-Score-1-062-800?p=952279&viewfull=1#post952279

"Regarding VHS tape. It is not designed to record and play back progressive signals. It stores NTSC/PAL/SECAM/etc. which are interlaced formats. This is one of the reasons why the inverter board is used to record a direct feed to a VHS tape recorder and the RGB signal is no directly sent."

"Standard Composite and S-Video connections do not transfer progressive scan video images, so any RGB-to-Composite converter must output an interlaced signal."

Commodore 64 outputs a progressive composite video, it was certainly possible to directly hook that up to a VHS and record it in the 1980's.


Some modern TVs have real problems with progressive analogue video though. The manufacturers didn't bother to plug in an old games console. It affects some modern games consoles too though, some modern consoles with emulators have had to put the games out in interlaced (which changes the timing as the frame rate is slightly different 59.94hz vs 60hz).

The DK hack sounds like it might be an interesting project if someone was curious enough. In the case of Billy, though, he's gone to great lengths to testify that, in order to avoid further King of Kong "shenanigans" about PCB tampering, he had the DK PCB independently verified as original/unmodified before and after he put up his 1.05 and 1.06 million scores.

I'm not sure that Billy has the skils to modify a board, or tell if it's been modified. I get the impression he believes every thing his friends say and disbelieves everything his perceived enemies say.

I'd love to know who verified it wasn't modified & how they could tell. If there was money in it then I'd put an ARM cpu inside a z80 packaging and have it execute the roms on the motherboard in an emulator, but allow you to trigger tool automated speed runs. You'd need to decap the Z80 to find that.

It seems the syncs coming from the DK PCB confuse the RGB-to-NTSC chip and the composite sync and colorburst is pretty messed up looking - The signal levels are wrong. The timing is messed up. The colorburst seems to be too short.  I haven't made full sense of the why yet, but it's safe to say most NTSC devices are going to have trouble decoding colors from this video signal.

If your RGB to NTSC is unhappy, then this might fix it.

https://martin-jones.com/2014/09/16/that-syncing-feeling-classic-arcade-games-that-wont-stay-still/
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Rev John on April 04, 2018, 06:49:34 am
Look what I just found and posted to the BM DK dispute thread

See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iirf4_jiX0Y&t=3h28m32s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iirf4_jiX0Y&t=3h28m32s) - Jace Hall is discussing one of Billy's MAME tapes

If you don't see the score bobble up then back down then back up within 2 seconds hit F5 and look again.  Or you can pause and hit comma and full-stop to scroll back and forth frame by frame.

EDIT: Jace Hall of TG has checked the original tape and the above score 'popping' does not appear on the original tape submitted by Billy Mitchell.  So what you can see in the link above must be some artefact of the FB stream / Youtube conersions.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: danman123456 on April 04, 2018, 10:45:36 am
I thought that was brought up as a cut point on the DVD from Dwayne himself. That is why it overlaps a bit.

Look what I just found and posted to the BM DK dispute thread

See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iirf4_jiX0Y&t=3h28m32s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iirf4_jiX0Y&t=3h28m32s) - Jace Hall is discussing one of Billy's MAME tapes

If you don't see the score bobble up then back down then back up within 2 seconds hit F5 and look again.  Or you can pause and hit comma and full-stop to scroll back and forth frame by frame.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Rev John on April 05, 2018, 04:56:54 am
I thought that was brought up as a cut point on the DVD from Dwayne himself. That is why it overlaps a bit.

Look what I just found and posted to the BM DK dispute thread

See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iirf4_jiX0Y&t=3h28m32s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iirf4_jiX0Y&t=3h28m32s) - Jace Hall is discussing one of Billy's MAME tapes

If you don't see the score bobble up then back down then back up within 2 seconds hit F5 and look again.  Or you can pause and hit comma and full-stop to scroll back and forth frame by frame.

We should get the "slow-mo guys" on youtube to analyze Billy's tape.

I've added an edit to my post above: "Jace Hall of TG has checked the original tape and the above score 'popping' does not appear on the original tape submitted by Billy Mitchell.  So what you can see in the link above must be some artefact of the FB stream / Youtube conversions."

There's still no explanation for the MAME frames, other than that Billy used MAME.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Sqrlmonger on April 05, 2018, 03:31:49 pm
Reference: TG Post #2661 (https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/176004-Dispute-Jeremy-Young-Arcade-Donkey-Kong-Points-Hammer-Allowed-Player-Billy-L-Mitchell-Score-1-062-800?p=962236&viewfull=1#post962236)
Quote from: Jace
I specifically asked Carlos how much more time he needs to get through his process, and I told him that we are waiting to include his findings and evaluate them before finalizing a decision. I also told him that we have limited time to wait for him. He understood and had no issue and indicated the desire to be done quickly as well.

He said he will provide TG with a time estimate shortly. I indicated that we have allowed for at least through the weekend for him to finish up his work, but a decision will need to be made very shortly after that no matter what.

There is a potential TG banning soon if anyone is interested.

Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Weehawk on April 05, 2018, 04:11:57 pm
He said he will provide TG with a time estimate shortly.

Or...you know...at least provide TG with an estimate of when they can provide an estimate of when they can provide the information...

(http://www.slither-gdi.net/suspense.jpg)
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: bh on April 05, 2018, 05:21:07 pm
Crossposting from TG:

Attached is a visualization contrasting the rendering behavior of a genuine Donkey Kong cabinet and MAME. Original hardware performs a linear scan of video ram (upper left) writing the contents to screen (upper right). The Z80 CPU and video generation are on separate boards. Their behavior isn’t synchronized and the Z80 happily writes to video ram while the video board composes the screen. MAME took shortcuts and didn’t emulate this async interaction between the Z80 and the video generator. It reads the entire contents of video ram at once (lower left) and renders discrete frames (lower right).

This leads to pronounced differences in frame generation.

By image fourteen of the visualization MAME has completed it’s frame displaying three girders. The second girder is complete and reaches the left-hand side of the screen. Original hardware is only part-way through a frame and only showing three floating girders. By image thirty one, original hardware will have completed a frame showing five partial girders.

When MAME composes its next frame, ladders have already been written into video ram and appear in the output. These ladders won’t appear on real hardware until the linear scan completes it’s 3rd pass.

It’s also worth pointing out that girders are populated into vram from right to left while the arcade sweep line travels from left to right. The interaction between draw and scan crossing each other means that real hardware can show multiple partially drawn girders. Since MAME generates the entire framebuffer at once it does not display evidence of this interaction and only shows one partially drawn element at once - whatever the emulated Z80 happened to have drawn to at the time it was interrupted by the video emulator.

The take home message is that frame composition order differs between a Donkey Kong cabinet and MAME. These hallmarks are sufficient to conclusively identify whether a video shows MAME or arcade gameplay. Genuine hardware will always show five partial girders rather than the three girder pattern characteristic of MAME. Ladders won’t appear all at once on real hardware. No amount of analog signal processing will make a MAME frame look like an arcade frame and vice versa. Arguments that don’t address this are distractions at best.

The tapes released by Twin Galaxies look like MAME because they're MAME.

()
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: johnbart on April 05, 2018, 10:29:27 pm
This is an amazing visualization of the differences. The simulated scan line makes it so clear.

Thanks for putting this together.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Sqrlmonger on April 05, 2018, 10:55:53 pm
This is an amazing visualization of the differences. The simulated scan line makes it so clear.

Thanks for putting this together.

I'll let him post his final result set here, but there is more to come. I've seen he is working on the other boards on the TG forum. 

And I agree, it's very instructive (and cool) to be able to be able to visualize the difference.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: RickyRicardo80 on April 06, 2018, 04:32:10 am
Hi Everybody,

After following this story for quite a while now I wanted to chime in with some finding I had on my own. I'm a software developer and have experience with 6502 programming, and 8 bit logic in general ( mostly C64 and ZX ). While everybody was focusing on reproducing the finger girder, I took a different approach. Imho it is very hard if not impossible to prove something that isn't there, so by just analyzing the footage alone you will never EVER get a 100% assurance it can NEVER happen.

So, here is what I did. I know most 8 bit games draw their background as character map. This is way cheaper and has less memory limitation than using sprites, but it also add a little limitation of where the character can be placed, namely, only on a grid. The DK display is 224 x 256 pixels meaning it has a character grid of 28x32 characters ( 1byte characters of height 8 ). To test this I took a pixel perfect rendition of Mame and overlayed a 8x8 block pattern and sure enough the characters immediately stood out. For instance the score numbers, extra men etc all have a 1pixel blank to the left so the never touch, which is exactly as any developer would do this.

So far, so good. Then I took the image of the finger girder and overlayed it to my image, to find out where exactly the finger is, and of what pixels it is made of. Sure enough, the finger is exactly 1 character wide and only has one row of pixels. The missing part of the girder is exactly 7x1 characters.

I did some calculation, because I was now assuming a memcopy size to pop up somewhere. The section drawn in that cycle is 128x224 pixels = 3.5K minus 7x8 = 56bytes is a memcopy of 3.4453K. No programmer in his right mind would use such a size of a block of memory to copy. I thought a bit about it, and realised back in the day with slower memory, etc, it would be very ineffective to copy blocks of blank memory. So I did some counting....

The number of characters of the first cycle that end exactly with that girder is 128 characters. This is absolutely a number any programmer would use. This is EXACTLY 1K of pixel data.

As somebody stated earlier, the DK hardware has 2 separate processes to draw the image. The first process is the game logic that puts the girders in video memory. The second hardware process is the video routine that reads that memory and spits it out. These processes do not interact. Finally, the actually drawing is an analog process. There is absolutely NO way that these 3 separate processes line up perfectly to stop exactly at that girder, not once but many times in a single recording.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Sock Master on April 06, 2018, 08:31:07 am
Attached is a visualization contrasting the rendering behavior of a genuine Donkey Kong cabinet and MAME. Original hardware performs a linear scan of video ram (upper left) writing the contents to screen (upper right). The Z80 CPU and video generation are on separate boards. Their behavior isn’t synchronized and the Z80 happily writes to video ram while the video board composes the screen. MAME took shortcuts and didn’t emulate this async interaction between the Z80 and the video generator. It reads the entire contents of video ram at once (lower left) and renders discrete frames (lower right).

This leads to pronounced differences in frame generation.

Here are the rest of the the DK render models.

Barrels, Pies, Springs and Rivets:

Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: serphintizer on April 06, 2018, 08:38:11 am
 Kreygasm
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Sqrlmonger on April 06, 2018, 04:40:51 pm
This may well end up being my longest post, but hopefully it will be worth looking at.  Much of the work presented here is building off of what bh has done. I will get into detail about that as I go.

Methodology

First of all, I looked at the animations/videos bh posted closely and took images at key points. bh put numbers in the top right to align things and for lack of a better term I will call these Transition Frame Number or TFN (note these are not the same as DK gameplay frames in the slightest). 

The following are the TFN's I took images of and why I thought they would be most useful:
TFN 28: The arcade scan line has just completed a left to right pass and MAME just performed an output of VRAM at TFN 19 and won't do another until TFN 54. Thus 28 is a good point to grab the output values for comparison as we are likely to see aspects of this output in transition analysis.
TFN 60: As previously mentioned MAME output its VRAM at TFN 54 and TFN 60 marks the completion of another Arcade left to right pass.
TFN 93: Arcade completes a scan at TFN 92 but MAME performs an output on 92 (which covers the VRAM output) so I took the image at 93. I later decided to not bother analyzing the VRAM so 92 probably would work, but there is no difference between the two since this was the final arcade pass for these animations.

With these frames decided upon I created an image comprised of two rows. The top row would have Arcade output for the three TFN panels described above in ascending order from left to right and the bottom row would be the same for MAME output.  With those images in hand I was able to then split the Arcade and MAME rows into images, align them, and perform a difference on them  using a logical pixel by pixel difference check performed by diffchecker.com's Image Diff (https://www.diffchecker.com/image-diff) functionality.  This provided the output for the diff images which show bright pink pixels where differences exists between the two images.

Using the diff output as a guide my methodology was to locate points of difference and then re-examine the animations bh created to understand how these differences arise. Understanding how the differences arise is extremely important as it can indicate whether such differences are likely or unlikely to present themselves in live output of Arcade or MAME gameplay.  Importantly, we can also line up this method to see if other known transition differences emerge from the analysis as expected.

Evidence Examined

Barrel Stage
(https://i.lensdump.com/i/89c537.md.jpg) (https://lensdump.com/i/89c537)

(https://i.lensdump.com/i/89cbHz.md.jpg) (https://lensdump.com/i/89cbHz)

1st Panel: Classic 3 vs 5 girder transition difference is clearly visible.
2nd Panel: This panel indicates that with the exception of the ladders on the bottom girder if we see a capture that shows only the three ladders on the right side of the screen that this is indicative of an Arcade transition that should not be possible in MAME. By the time MAME outputs VRAM for a 2nd time all of the ladders have been drawn into VRAM, but for Arcade the bottom left ladder is only just drawn underneath the scan line at TFN 42. In live hardware I would not be surprised to see arcade play with and/or without this ladder but this analysis indicates we should expect it.  You can see an example of this from Wes (https://youtu.be/23RNHhzMbew?t=4m22s) at 4:22 but notice we get an extra ladder on the left side one girder up.  I think this demonstrates that this analysis does have some limitation and that verification is necessary.  To continue the point however this extra ladder is not always there as seen in the same video by wes  at 9:02.  But more to the point, this extra ladder and a friend appear to tag along in Billy's 1.04m video (https://youtu.be/KYtJzRcvOzk) at 0:13 and 3:53 (literally the first two barrel transitions in the video).  So the point is that while the exact order of rendering may not be perfect, the analysis of the evidence is still revealing clear differences with strong connections to the animations bh has created.
3rd Panel: No appreciable difference.

Annotations
(https://i.lensdump.com/i/89xpz1.md.jpg) (https://lensdump.com/i/89xpz1)

Barrel Stage Empirical Evidence
Wes 4:22Wes 9:02
(https://i.lensdump.com/i/89b6YF.md.jpg) (https://lensdump.com/i/89b6YF)(https://i.lensdump.com/i/89bQJ0.md.jpg) (https://lensdump.com/i/89bQJ0)
Billy 0:13Billy 3:53
(https://i.lensdump.com/i/89bgw5.md.jpg) (https://lensdump.com/i/89bgw5)(https://i.lensdump.com/i/89bZSC.md.jpg) (https://lensdump.com/i/89bZSC)

Pie/Factory Stage
(https://i.lensdump.com/i/89X0XM.md.jpg) (https://lensdump.com/i/89X0XM)

(https://i.lensdump.com/i/89Xikq.md.jpg) (https://lensdump.com/i/89Xikq)

1st Panel: This is perhaps one of the more telling panels in the entire analysis. In the arcade we expect to see these two ladders on the right, and for MAME we expect to see this one ladder on the left. You can see that here with Billy (left ladder) (https://youtu.be/KYtJzRcvOzk?t=9m38s) at 9:38 and Here with Wes (right ladders) (https://youtu.be/23RNHhzMbew?t=25m50s) at 25:50.
2nd Panel: The primary differences here are the girders in the lower left have yet to be drawn Arcade but they have in MAME. This difference however cannot help us identify MAME gameplay, but ONLY arcade gameplay because these missing girders will appear in Arcade but in MAME we won't know if they are drawn because we are on this panel or the next panel where both MAME and arcade display the girders.  Here is an example of this from Wes' video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23RNHhzMbew) you can see it faintly at 11:33 and 17:40 but the best example is the 25:50 transition mentioned in the 1st panel. In this example we catch the DK Cab frames (the diagonal transition line), thus we can see this Arcade transition for the 2nd Panel as well as the arcade transition for the 1st panel all in one shot.
3rd Panel: No appreciable difference.

Annotations
(https://i.lensdump.com/i/89x7bc.md.jpg) (https://lensdump.com/i/89x7bc)

Pie/Factory Stage Empirical Evidence
Billy 9:38Wes 25:50
(https://i.lensdump.com/i/89bRfb.md.jpg) (https://lensdump.com/i/89bRfb)(https://i.lensdump.com/i/89bBpM.md.jpg) (https://lensdump.com/i/89bBpM)
Wes 11:33Wes 17:40
(https://i.lensdump.com/i/89bVSD.md.jpg) (https://lensdump.com/i/89bVSD)(https://i.lensdump.com/i/89bqRA.md.jpg) (https://lensdump.com/i/89bqRA)

Elevator Stage
(https://i.lensdump.com/i/89X8L0.md.jpg) (https://lensdump.com/i/89X8L0)

(https://i.lensdump.com/i/89chWF.md.jpg) (https://lensdump.com/i/89chWF)

1st Panel: Here the main differences are the paired ladders show up as a pair in MAME but solo (right side only) in Arcade, but we also see that 4 specific smaller ladders show up on the right side of the screen in arcade but those 4 plus two more central ladders show up in this panel in MAME.  At 6:03 in Billy's video you can see double ladders and even though we are mid transition on this frame from "How high can you climb" screen (so we can't tell if we have the 4 or 6 ladders ) we do see we have one of the extra ladders so it looks like this is actually a 5 ladder transition.  Another example of how the animations are helpful, but not perfect. More work will be needed to verify that arcade can't produce this 5th ladder without the 6th but the ladder pairs are still quite clear when compared to Wes' video at 48:35 (it was hard to find a clean version of this indicating it may not be a good transition to identify Arcade)
2nd Panel: This is another example of some lower left girders not being fully drawn in on our 2nd panel and again it can only help us identify MAME gameplay because MAME panel 2/3 looks like Arcade Panel 3.  Additionally, we can see from Wes' video at 11:56 the bottom girder fading in and that the girder between the bottom of the ladder pair is NOT fading in. This indicates another difference between the animations and yet another reason why comparing to video footage for concrete facts is important.
3rd Panel: No appreciable difference.

Annotations
(https://i.lensdump.com/i/89xK6H.md.jpg) (https://lensdump.com/i/89xK6H)

Elevator Stage Empirical Evidence
Billy 6:03
(https://i.lensdump.com/i/89bt1z.md.jpg) (https://lensdump.com/i/89bt1z)
Wes 11:56Wes 48:35
(https://i.lensdump.com/i/89b9xq.md.jpg) (https://lensdump.com/i/89b9xq)(https://i.lensdump.com/i/89bmFQ.md.jpg) (https://lensdump.com/i/89bmFQ)



Rivet Stage
(https://i.lensdump.com/i/89X1ik.md.jpg) (https://lensdump.com/i/89X1ik)

(https://i.lensdump.com/i/89Xg3a.md.jpg) (https://lensdump.com/i/89Xg3a)

1st Panel: The bottom right two ladders render in arcade in the first panel while the left side ladders do not (see Wes' video at 7:53). For MAME however we see the leftmost three ladders render in the first panel while the bottom right two do not. So in arcade we should never see a transition were the leftmost three ladders are drawn and the right bottom two are not. I couldn't find a good clean example (though the hallmarks/indications are there, it's just not black/white with a clean transition) in Billy's first video so I started looking at the 1.05m video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0ZKEGZpggI) and found this at 3:08. Clear as day we have the left 3 ladders and are missing the bottom right two.
2nd Panel: At first it may appear that the only difference here is that arcade does not render a small piece of the bottom girder, but looking at the diff output highlight that the girder sections drawn WITH the ladders are the barrel stage style "truss girders" while the Rivet stage draws over top of these with the "oval girder" (You may need to click images above and look closely to see, but the visual difference is clear when you know what to look for). Unfortunately, the video quality on the videos I was looking at was not good enough to spot this truss vs oval girder difference, but perhaps the digital original video would reveal it.  For now I will leave this as an exercise for someone else to wrap up.
3rd Panel: No appreciable difference.

Annotations
(https://i.lensdump.com/i/89xHtK.md.jpg) (https://lensdump.com/i/89xHtK)

Rivet Stage Empirical Evidence
Wes 7:53Billy (1.05m) 3:08
(https://i.lensdump.com/i/89bJ23.md.jpg) (https://lensdump.com/i/89bJ23)(https://i.lensdump.com/i/89bkBr.md.jpg) (https://lensdump.com/i/89bkBr)

If I were to do this again I would exclude the third panels, they produced nothing interesting.  Though I suppose it was best to be sure and demonstrating this fact is useful in its own right.

This was just some quick analysis on my part, I know a more thorough examination would likely reveal a lot more examples in Billy's performances but for now I wanted to show my results for the community to reproduce and allow for crowdsourcing any further efforts with my diff images from bh's work.

PS - I am going to edit this to include images to all of the still examples I pulled from the videos. References to those timestamps will remain for others to verify obviously.

edit: Still image examples have been added.  Please let me know if any errors, issues, questions, etc.. are spotted.

edit2: Went to dinner and when I got back decided some annotations might help. I've added them above.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: smf on April 07, 2018, 08:38:54 am
Here are the rest of the the DK render models.

What version of MAME is that? In 2008 MAME switched to scan line rendering, which still isn't perfect as instead of looking at vram once it looks at vram 224 times. I'm interested in how much that changes the output. 0.196 has the -norotate orientation matching a direct pcb recording, so that will make a difference too.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Sock Master on April 07, 2018, 09:32:14 am
What version of MAME is that? In 2008 MAME switched to scan line rendering, which still isn't perfect as instead of looking at vram once it looks at vram 224 times. I'm interested in how much that changes the output. 0.196 has the -norotate orientation matching a direct pcb recording, so that will make a difference too.

The animations are computed models to visualize DK PCB rendering and the rendering of pre-V0.127 versions MAME.  They're just that, computed simulations to show how the two are functionally different from each other.  It's just an animation to show the *why* of the difference between MAME and Arcade.   A picture is worth a thousand words.  An animated picture is worth ten thousand words.

The current versions of MAME are much closer to Arcade rendering in theory, but MAME still gets it very wrong.  No current version of MAME will render like arcade because it scans VRAM in the wrong direction (it starts at the right and works towards the left instead of the other way around).   The -norotate option doesn't affect the order in which the framebuffer is composed so the output frames will not change in composition.


...In live hardware I would not be surprised to see arcade play with and/or without this ladder but this analysis indicates we should expect it.  You can see an example of this from Wes (https://youtu.be/23RNHhzMbew?t=4m22s) at 4:22 but notice we get an extra ladder on the left side one girder up.  I think this demonstrates that this analysis does have some limitation and that verification is necessary.  To continue the point however this extra ladder is not always there as seen in the same video by wes  at 9:02.  But more to the point, this extra ladder and a friend appear to tag along in Billy's 1.04m video (https://youtu.be/KYtJzRcvOzk) at 0:13 and 3:53 (literally the first two barrel transitions in the video)...

There's something that needs to be taken into account when looking at game footage taken with a camera pointed at a screen.  Many video cameras have rolling shutters.  The shutters are also not necessarily synchronized with the screen and not necessarily open for 1/60th of a second.  The extra ladder you mention does not actually ever appear in the output from a DK PCB but is simply an artifact of the interaction between the camera's shutter and the scanning electron beam on the game CRT.  The still shots in your examples show multiple overlapped partial game frames blended together into one image.    The effect can usually be taken into account by looking for the 'cut' lines, usually diagonal lines with soft edges.   In the blue triangle in the bottom of the image below, one of the ladders is brighter than the other.  This indicates that the brighter ladder was present in both Frames 2 and 3, while the darker ladder was only present in one of the frames - we can deduce its presence in Frame 3 because in this context it's very unlikely that it was present in Frame 2 and then NOT present in Frame 3.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: smf on April 07, 2018, 02:02:15 pm
No current version of MAME will render like arcade because it scans VRAM in the wrong direction (it starts at the right and works towards the left instead of the other way around).   The -norotate option doesn't affect the order in which the framebuffer is composed so the output frames will not change in composition.

I think you should rethink.

-norotate doesn't change the emulation, but the output does now match the direct pcb recording. When you use -norotate it ignores the game specific rotation and yoke swapping and assumes a horizontal monitor that scans from the top left to the bottom right.

As MAME is outputting the pixels in the same order as a direct pcb recording now, it follows that it's fetching the bytes in the same order.

Before 0.196, MAME had the equivalent of this hardware mod applied.

http://www.brasington.org/arcade/tech/flip/dk.shtml

0.196 and later has it the opposite way.

WRITE8_MEMBER(dkong_state::dkong_flipscreen_w)
 {
-   m_flip = ~data & 0x01;
+   m_flip = data & 0x01;
 }

MAME arguably should have it as a configuration option .
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Sqrlmonger on April 07, 2018, 03:37:45 pm
...In live hardware I would not be surprised to see arcade play with and/or without this ladder but this analysis indicates we should expect it.  You can see an example of this from Wes (https://youtu.be/23RNHhzMbew?t=4m22s) at 4:22 but notice we get an extra ladder on the left side one girder up.  I think this demonstrates that this analysis does have some limitation and that verification is necessary.  To continue the point however this extra ladder is not always there as seen in the same video by wes  at 9:02.  But more to the point, this extra ladder and a friend appear to tag along in Billy's 1.04m video (https://youtu.be/KYtJzRcvOzk) at 0:13 and 3:53 (literally the first two barrel transitions in the video)...

There's something that needs to be taken into account when looking at game footage taken with a camera pointed at a screen.  Many video cameras have rolling shutters.  The shutters are also not necessarily synchronized with the screen and not necessarily open for 1/60th of a second.  The extra ladder you mention does not actually ever appear in the output from a DK PCB but is simply an artifact of the interaction between the camera's shutter and the scanning electron beam on the game CRT.  The still shots in your examples show multiple overlapped partial game frames blended together into one image.    The effect can usually be taken into account by looking for the 'cut' lines, usually diagonal lines with soft edges.   In the blue triangle in the bottom of the image below, one of the ladders is brighter than the other.  This indicates that the brighter ladder was present in both Frames 2 and 3, while the darker ladder was only present in one of the frames - we can deduce its presence in Frame 3 because in this context it's very unlikely that it was present in Frame 2 and then NOT present in Frame 3.

I'm aware of the rolling shutter, the problem I have is that my understanding is that rolling shutter would be left/right or top/bottom depending on the camera.  It's sort of like a piece of paper with lines drawn from edge to edge, and each line adds at least 1 more region and each region can be a window into a different moment in the frame transitions.  So what I am trying to understand is, if the DK cab is creating a diagonal "line on the paper" why are both "lines on the paper" (which are basically just the borders between frames) roughly parallel to each other when the camera should be left/right or top/bottom?  What am I missing in this understanding?

I mean I definitely notice the difference in the phosphors brightness and in fact it's one of the reasons I chose the image (in spite of its flaws) is because you can see in the bottom left corner the way the girder is just lighting up as we would expect from the 2nd arcade panel on the barrel stage.

I'm starting to wonder if I should have chosen another cleaner image just for clarity but this may prove interesting and I'm always open to learn something new.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Sock Master on April 07, 2018, 06:13:57 pm
Before 0.196, MAME had the equivalent of this hardware mod applied.

http://www.brasington.org/arcade/tech/flip/dk.shtml

0.196 and later has it the opposite way.

Ah then yes, the latest versions of MAME might be a bit more arcade authentic.   I haven't checked to see if it really does look like arcade now.  Last I checked the emulated Z80 in MAME executed code considerably faster than it does on arcade hardware.  The emulation did not implement wait states when the Z80 reads or writes from DK's VRAM.

I'm aware of the rolling shutter, the problem I have is that my understanding is that rolling shutter would be left/right or top/bottom depending on the camera.  It's sort of like a piece of paper with lines drawn from edge to edge, and each line adds at least 1 more region and each region can be a window into a different moment in the frame transitions.  So what I am trying to understand is, if the DK cab is creating a diagonal "line on the paper" why are both "lines on the paper" (which are basically just the borders between frames) roughly parallel to each other when the camera should be left/right or top/bottom?  What am I missing in this understanding?

The diagonal cuts are the result of interaction between the CRT screen and the camera's rolling shutter.  The camera's shutter sweeps from top to bottom.  But the CRT (which is rotated sideways) paints its image from left to right.   So as the shutter rolls to the bottom of the picture area the CRT had time to refresh more of it's screen.   The bottom of the image captured by the camera is from a later point in time than the top and the CRT had refreshed more of it's image toward the right.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: smf on April 07, 2018, 10:19:56 pm
Last I checked the emulated Z80 in MAME executed code considerably faster than it does on arcade hardware.  The emulation did not implement wait states when the Z80 reads or writes from DK's VRAM.

Is there any information available on what correct timing is? And any software that tests it?
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Flobeamer1922 on April 08, 2018, 12:45:15 am
The attached image confirms that 0.196 corrects the VRAM scanning direction. However, it still doesn't look quite like arcade due to the scanning speed still being off, likely because the Z80 is running too fast, as Sock mentioned before.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: maximumsteve on April 09, 2018, 08:11:16 pm
Greetings All. So I am relaying the summary and conclusion of Carlos Pineiro's testing and research. He is not an active member on the TG or DK forums and so he asked if I would share it. On a personal note, I want to thank Carlos for the time and effort he volunteered on this. I have gotten to know Carlos over the last month and a half or so by virtue of living in the same area, and it's amazing how a friendship can be stemmed through unique circumstances. And here it is.............

"By the time I saw the dispute, it was over 150 pages long, jam filled with information and allegations, beginning from what I read with the swipe vs. pop graphic, which was caused by the shutter effect.

Next was the converter and it’s operation. The converter produced a duplicate or lagged image was the claim. I demonstrated that it’s not so on a CRT, where the spare screen was ahead of the actual Arcade screen.

Next we had that the converter would not have been used because it doesn’t record color. This issue was cracked using a specific brand of VCR that was around before the creation of the tape.

Next we moved to the issue where the dispute claimed that after a lot of testing, Mame’s Version 0.116 through 0.121 mimic the stage transitions on Billy’s Tapes & previous versions didn’t. What I found was based from Mame development that those versions came out about 2 years after the creation of the 1.047 Billy Tape.

Next came that previous mame versions with modifications and tweaking on the settings, plus refresh rate modification, would mean that you can produce an image which looks close to the stage transitions.

With so many changes and modifications, plus page after page of suggestions, I turned my focus on testing the broad functions of the Genuine Nintendo DK Arcade PCB. This includes the way it was recorded using the devices in hand and what was available at the time of the creation of the tapes.
2 Genuine DK boards were used for testing, and 1 DK Double modified board, a 60 in 1 board, 16 in 1 board and 2 versions of Mame on a home PC Laptop. Most of these tests when performed were recorded and captured to share among the others which were also running tests. Most of these tests were not released publicly but are stored. Recording Mame from a computer, moving to a DVD, playing to a VCR recording, and recording from a capture was done to find differences and similarities.

Though the famous finger(Tail some call it) on the girder was a long focus in the research, after so many boards and finding many video plays from other DK players on YouTube... The patterns began to become much more clear. Similarities that could be seen on one type of DK vs a DK played on an alternative board.
After MANY hours and looking at frame by frame of the test recordings, others play and the recordings I produced in my personal testings for evaluations were taken into account.....

My Conclusion on the 1.047 & 1.050 game tapes is that they were NOT generated from a Genuine Nintendo Donkey Kong PCB. The signatures which are normally produced by those PCB's are NOT on the recordings.

Repeated testing and viewing of the game on those tapes do not demonstrate the signatures found on recordings coming out of Genuine Nintendo Donkey Kong Arcade boards." End Quote.

Again in closing I applaud Carlos for his unbiased and independent research, study and testing on this matter, and I hope regardless of which side of the dispute you are on, that from a technical standpoint, you can respect and appreciate the work put in just like both of us do for Jace and the TG Staff, and the DKF. Cheers.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Sqrlmonger on April 09, 2018, 08:50:09 pm
My Conclusion on the 1.047 & 1.050 game tapes is that they were NOT generated from a Genuine Nintendo Donkey Kong PCB. The signatures which are normally produced by those PCB's are NOT on the recordings.

I think this is the relevant bit KongTower.

I'm glad to see Carlos didn't let his personal relationship cloud his judgement. 

Having said that, I do find it interesting he did not address the 1.06 score. I realize we have a lot less footage to look at but if you can't produce the MAME transitions from the 1.04 and 1.05 tapes I'm not really sure how you can justify their presence from the same player on the 1.06 tape.

Edit: Moved to separate post.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Sqrlmonger on April 09, 2018, 09:12:02 pm
A color coded guide to the Joel West rant (https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/176004-Dispute-Jeremy-Young-Arcade-Donkey-Kong-Points-Hammer-Allowed-Player-Billy-L-Mitchell-Score-1-062-800?p=963316&viewfull=1#post963316).

Quote from: Text Color Legend
Commentary Irrelevant to the Dispute.
Chest puffing to sell his legal credentials.
Baseless legal threats/lame attempts to question the validity of the dispute.
DWAYNE DID IT!!!
Text relevant to a post on the dispute thread.

Quote from: Joel West
It has been 67 days since “Team Billy” has known of the Jeremy Young Dispute. Throughout this time many strange things have occurred. People who were once friends have become frothing accusers. Threats of all kinds, including threats of death, have been issued to Billy and his family. His life, income and peace has been disrupted, and still the mob of haters … whom suddenly ALL have become arcade AND MAME experts, continue their dispensing of personally-targeted hate. All of this inane activity, that even Junior High schoolers would be embarrassed by, is over a #12 video game score that has not been a record of any kind in over 5 years.

Not being a video game technical expert, or ever caring to be … I tried to use my training to help my friend of 35 years in an area that I could be of assistance. My training is in paralegal science. No, that is not an attorney, but anyone in the legal profession knows the paralegal is the worker ant while the attorney is just the ant queenJ. The paralegal is the steak, the attorney is the sizzle.
I am fortunate to know four good attorneys in diverse areas of practice including one who has successfully argued and won before the United States Supreme Court. I am diligent enough over the last 6 weeks to have spent over 130 hours in research citing case law and cases that can be relevant to this situation.

While I had originally written, with my cites and instances, 14 pages of information showing the misuse of the Dispute System within the membership system of Twin Galaxies PLUS the fact that there were over 30 instances of improper and discriminatory application … I decided the average reader would not read the 14 pages, nor care to understand its legal applications of which I could have easily added 4-5 more. PLUS, there is no need to give the opposition info that they should know and should have researched themselves. I do not work for them and there is no future in aiding the competition. So I decided to shorten the post. Besides, why show them what they will possibly be up against in court?

I will say this: there is no doubt that Twin Galaxies has definitely contributed to the defamation of Billy Mitchell.
* Twin Galaxies contributed to the defamation by their self-designed and very PUBLIC Dispute System (even Guinness World Records has a much more private system they have used while investigation of impropriety is on-going).
* Twin Galaxies (TG) owner Jace Hall has basically taken over Jeremy Young’s original dispute with his comments. Jace is not only the Judge deciding if the disputed score stays or goes but Jace is also the arbiter that decides if the evidence is inconclusive in PROVING the dispute (against someone who is ALREADY listed on the scoreboard). In the Young Dispute Jace Hall now has become the prosecutor in this essentially powerless jury system. Yes, members do get to vote, but TG officials (i.e. Jace Hall and possibly one other) make the FINAL judgement.
* The original dispute by Jeremy Young contended that Billy’s 1,062,800 was MAME. When TG was asked to simply reproduce the tape, THEY COULD NOT. TG ownership contended that they just “took over” 4 years ago and that they just weren’t responsible, they “didn’t even know” if Billy had ever actually given TG the tape (Yet that creates another allegation against Billy’s character and we have several witnesses to counterman that spurious accusation).
HOWEVER, I contend that TG has an on-going fiduciary responsibility to have “evidence in any dispute” BEFORE bringing a man’s legacy, reputation and good-standing character into question. Instead, Jace Hall has imposed his ultimate authority as head of a private company that provides a public service to members and non-members alike in allowing a process that is based upon a LACK OF EVIDENCE that TG should possess, but now wants to cry they may not have ever had it.
* Even though TG has had its new ownership for 4 years, it has WILLFULLY NEGLECTED its fiduciary duties to gather and archive the records it is responsible for on a timely and complete basis. There are several depositories of past TG tapes all over America. How do I know, I have one right in my house!
* TG also fails in its fiduciary responsibility to those whose scores it oversees (namely Bill Mitchell) and TG also fails in simple good common sense … to accept copies of tapes from a well-documented frothing hater of Billy Mitchell, Dwayne Richard. Richard has made a movie about Billy Mitchell, made phone and email threats to Billy, Billy’s family, and to Billy’s wife’s work. Dwayne Richard has been used by Jace Hall in the past when Jace was contemplating joining in with Jordan Adler of Denver in a competing “Kong-Off style event” several years ago. From the words of Dwayne’s own mouth “Jace gave me $500 to get out to Pittsburgh to check this out for him”. Collusion?
* This is the same Dwayne Richard who “made a movie” about Billy, whom Jace admitted supplied TG (Jace) with the tapes of Billy and Steve Weibe’s game play.
* The same Dwayne Richard who is seen in a YouTube clip with EDITING equipment upon his desk.
* This is the same Dwayne Richard who reportedly said to several different people, whom WILL TESTIFY in court, that Dwayne ask their help in pulling a “fast one” on Billy Mitchell with a “MAME fake” as early as 2009.

While the technical aspects are not my speciality:
1. I can look in someone eyes whom I known for 35 years and discern the truth or a lie.
2. I can remember seeing Billy do 1,000,000+ twice in all our thousands of miles of travels and 50+ appearances together (the scores were low into the millions and not world records).
3. I know that while Jace has all appearances of an honorable man, and has never done me personally wrong … like all dedicated and great gamers, he has an ego. That ego does not like to admit it is wrong.
4. Jace should have NEVER listened to someone with such a history as Dwayne Richard. That kind of obsessive and destructive behavior in “reputable consultants” is NOT the legacy that for which Walter Day intended for his legacy to be associated. I believe Jace has been DECEIVED by Dwayne Richard, as ALL the mob of haters has been so led.
IF YOU START WITH A FALSE TAPE, ALL “PROOFS” ARE WITHIN THE REALM OF THAT FALSE TAPE.
Richard has had 7 years+ to fabricate his AVOWED revenge against Billy for Richard’s inane feeling that HE should have been in the King of Kong movie. Jace (TG) has fallen right into a clever disguised ruse.
5. As far as the technical aspects, as more and more items were disproved by Carlos and David Race of Team Billy, then intelligently explained away … the TG Mob (which IS what they became) kept making more and more absurd accusations, they kept moving the “goal posts” (the essence of the dispute) and their frothing hate escalated. Meanwhile, Jace Hall watched … as his site hits kept climbing (controversy IS cash!!!). Jace allowed the focus to move to scores NOT EVEN ON THE TG SITE for 8+ years (1.050 and 1.047). These scores were allegedly put on YouTube by, can you guess … Dwayne Richard!
6. Jace has allowed the TG Mob to froth hate, defame Billy (as well as others of Team Billy) and do little to nothing to stop it. One can tell by Jace’s post as of late that he has been legally advised as how to write and appear vague, pseudo-fair and to appear not responsible for the hateful, defaming actions of others. That will have to be decided in court.
7. I propose to Jace Hall (TG) to SUSPEND this dispute now and do the following:

A. STOP allowing the persecution of the MOST Famous Classic Gamer in History (one of the TWO individuals who made your company, TG, SO valuable) … issue an apology to Billy AND his family PLUS direct your thread members to do likewise,

B. Get Dwayne Richard and Billy Mitchell in one location and get a certified independent polygraph operator to ask questions of BOTH while on camera and judge their answers. If you so desire, you could request Rob (board swap) Childs, Wes Copeland or anyone else you see as pertinent to this situation to have an invitation to be polygraphed.
You have been quoted as saying that polygraphs are just “gauges of who is the most nervous”. That is an absurd statement. The FBI isn’t in the habit of gauging one’s uneasiness. While the courts are skittish in allowing these machines, which would put some lawyers out of business, they are trustworthy enough for TG’s purposes. If trustworthiness of TG’s actions are in question … “moving the goalpost from 1.062 to 1.050 and 1.047. TG would not be talking about a “finger” then discounting it. TG would not be allowing the froth over the “board swap” to go on for weeks then discounting that video altogether when interest waned and internet hits slowed,

C. Prepare to negotiate a financial settlement if Billy is shown telling the truth OR if Dwayne is shown to have perpetrated this hoax.

There there is lack of integrity and there is breach of responsibility on TG’s part in this entire affair. TG DOES want the “Dwayne made-it-up” allegations answered, do they not? They do want to know if the MOST Famous player in classic gaming history is telling the truth, right? Or does, TG want to continue their flawed Dispute System where the accused are never notified by TG and well-crafted “made-up” allegations can destroy a man’s legacy, reputation, family and mental health?
Don’t just be a “businessman” Jace, be a MAN, and treat others like you would want to be treated. Keep this out of the court system, because that IS where this is headed. This is no longer about a score, but about the harm your public Dispute System and TG’s members have caused a man who has GIVEN himself to all your betterment and even tho you once said you “respected” the old scores … you have designed the system and fueled the froth to injure this man’s legacy, reputation and harm him and his family. You still have NO proof, just froth-spun innuendo. The “millions of dollars in new investment” TG now has will not be able to be used to make your company grow, if you continue to tear down an innocent man.
Joel West
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: smf on April 10, 2018, 12:00:26 am
My Conclusion on the 1.047 & 1.050 game tapes is that they were NOT generated from a Genuine Nintendo Donkey Kong PCB. The signatures which are normally produced by those PCB's are NOT on the recordings.

Repeated testing and viewing of the game on those tapes do not demonstrate the signatures found on recordings coming out of Genuine Nintendo Donkey Kong Arcade boards." End Quote.

We've known all along what it isn't, what we don't know is what it is.

It could be:

 1. MAME
 2. another emulator
 3. a bootleg donkey kong board, which is only loosely based on the original
 4. a modified original donkey kong board

Billy repeatedly saying it's not MAME could be the truth, but that doesn't mean the score is valid.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Bounty Bob on April 10, 2018, 12:48:49 am
Billy repeatedly saying it's not MAME could be the truth, but that doesn't mean the score is valid.
Yep, this is my conclusion too. The fact that it's not a genuine DK board is enough to strike it from any arcade high scores list.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: bensweeneyonbass on April 10, 2018, 02:34:54 am
I feel sorry for any lawyer who has Joel as one of their paralegals. My grammar brain just PTFO. His comma placement is SUPOIB! *kisses fingers*
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Shamrock on April 10, 2018, 02:51:43 am
It seems we are hours away from a final verdict! Comment 3003 on their forums has left me completely dead  Kreygasm
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: QAOP Spaceman on April 10, 2018, 03:15:18 am
(https://i.imgur.com/WmeaoNH.png)
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Sqrlmonger on April 10, 2018, 03:30:08 am
It seems we are hours away from a final verdict! Comment 3003 on their forums has left me completely dead  Kreygasm

I had the same thought a page or so back:

Reference: TG Post #2661 (https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/176004-Dispute-Jeremy-Young-Arcade-Donkey-Kong-Points-Hammer-Allowed-Player-Billy-L-Mitchell-Score-1-062-800?p=962236&viewfull=1#post962236)
Quote from: Jace
I specifically asked Carlos how much more time he needs to get through his process, and I told him that we are waiting to include his findings and evaluate them before finalizing a decision. I also told him that we have limited time to wait for him. He understood and had no issue and indicated the desire to be done quickly as well.

He said he will provide TG with a time estimate shortly. I indicated that we have allowed for at least through the weekend for him to finish up his work, but a decision will need to be made very shortly after that no matter what.

There is a potential TG banning soon if anyone is interested.

Having said that, I did like ersatzcats' way of wording it (e.g. "career kill screen"). =)
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Rev John on April 10, 2018, 05:14:19 am
My Conclusion on the 1.047 & 1.050 game tapes is that they were NOT generated from a Genuine Nintendo Donkey Kong PCB. The signatures which are normally produced by those PCB's are NOT on the recordings.

Repeated testing and viewing of the game on those tapes do not demonstrate the signatures found on recordings coming out of Genuine Nintendo Donkey Kong Arcade boards." End Quote.

We've known all along what it isn't, what we don't know is what it is.

It could be:

 1. MAME
 2. another emulator
 3. a bootleg donkey kong board, which is only loosely based on the original
 4. a modified original donkey kong board

Billy repeatedly saying it's not MAME could be the truth, but that doesn't mean the score is valid.

Billy said earlier this year that the footage Jeremy has "shows MAME play" - refer https://youtu.be/hWLxh9Yi5Dc?t=2368 (https://youtu.be/hWLxh9Yi5Dc?t=2368)

I can't see how he would be able to state this with such confidence unless he was quite familiar with MAME and/or was only saying what he knew to be true about those tapes.  If he was innocent or had used something other than MAME you would think he'd say either "But that's what I recorded" or "I have no idea what is on those tapes"
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: CaptainJivePants on April 10, 2018, 05:39:47 am
I feel sorry for any lawyer who has Joel as one of their paralegals. My grammar brain just PTFO. His comma placement is SUPOIB! *kisses fingers*


 ROFL  My thoughts exactly. 
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Josephjo on April 10, 2018, 05:43:25 am
(https://i.imgur.com/WmeaoNH.png)

 ROFL ROFL

You're gonna burn in hell for that Spaceman!
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: smf on April 10, 2018, 09:22:01 am
I can't see how he would be able to state this with such confidence unless he was quite familiar with MAME and/or was only saying what he knew to be true about those tapes.

Billy says everything with confidence. He says it's MAME as a passive aggressive defence.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Sqrlmonger on April 11, 2018, 02:43:11 am
Couple of updates:

Update #1
Tipster has a video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNQZ8ZVRBss) on the "lawsuit" against Apollo Legend.



Update #2
Jace has posted (https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/176004-Dispute-Jeremy-Young-Arcade-Donkey-Kong-Points-Hammer-Allowed-Player-Billy-L-Mitchell-Score-1-062-800?p=963664&viewfull=1#post963664) saying there is a minor delay due to his schedule. 

Quote from: Jace
(snip)

It is understood that there is a lot of anticipation for closure in this matter and I greatly apologize that there is this additional delay. It is entirely schedule related and has nothing to do with anything else.

Please bear with me (us).

Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: TheSunshineFund on April 11, 2018, 04:51:48 am
Thanks for posting these updates, much easier than to sift through all the pages in the thread. 
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: xelnia on April 12, 2018, 03:30:49 am
As of approximately 26 minutes ago, the TG-based dispute has been formally accepted (https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/176004-Dispute-Jeremy-Young-Arcade-Donkey-Kong-Points-Hammer-Allowed-Player-Billy-L-Mitchell-Score-1-062-800?p=964048&viewfull=1#post964048) by Twin Galaxies.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Bounty Bob on April 12, 2018, 03:32:46 am
You beat me to it, was just posting the same.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Shamrock on April 12, 2018, 03:45:16 am
I have... I think the perfect GIF for this... (I hope the GIF actually posts, if not, oh well)
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Weehawk on April 12, 2018, 04:24:04 am
Congratulations to Rick Fothergill, who now has the first perfect score on Pac-Man recognized by Twin Galaxies.

https://www.twingalaxies.com/game/pac-man/arcade/points-factory-speed/page/1?ref=fbshare



(http://www.slither-gdi.net/justroy.jpg)

Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Sqrlmonger on April 12, 2018, 04:42:22 am
Nothing surprising in the final judgement.

I think it was fair for them to say they cannot conclusively say it was MAME since they had not ruled out all other emulation or video editing.

Nothing really left to say now.

Thanks to everyone who contributed in any way to the dispute.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: bensweeneyonbass on April 12, 2018, 05:37:56 am
BOOM!
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Firebrandx on April 12, 2018, 06:04:23 am
These cheaters and scam artists (Todd and Billy) would never have been banned or punished under Walter's watch. I've been in contact with Walter the past few weeks, and he steadfastly refuses to believe Billy cheated. When I hit him up about all the evidence and the confessed staged board swap video, I got a 'pissed off' emoji in response.

So it would seem the best thing that ever happened to TG was Walter selling it to Jace. Because now these scam artists and cheaters are finally getting their just rewards. When I tried to out Todd back in 2002, he was given a free pass to just do as he pleased. That's because Walter was in charge. Not any more.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: hooch66 on April 12, 2018, 06:20:21 am
Congratulations to Rick Fothergill, who now has the first perfect score on Pac-Man recognized by Twin Galaxies.

https://www.twingalaxies.com/game/pac-man/arcade/points-factory-speed/page/1?ref=fbshare



(http://www.slither-gdi.net/justroy.jpg)

Holy shit! They wiped out all his scores?
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: YesAffinity on April 12, 2018, 08:29:47 am
Great job to Jeremy and John (and possibly others in the background?) for being the catalysts to more much-needed change.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Kewydee_17 on April 12, 2018, 09:20:24 am
Now that this  <Billy>  side-show has been sorted out, can we get to the meat of the issue?


Did Wes and Robbie use performance enhancing, ultra-fake button technology?  Kappa


 <snek>
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: QAOP Spaceman on April 12, 2018, 04:51:46 pm
Great job to Jeremy and John (and possibly others in the background?) for being the catalysts to more much-needed change.

Amen to that. It takes guts to raise your voice and point out that the emperor is bollock-naked.

It would be wonderful if anyone was able to capture the risible excuses and misdirection the great man attempts at MGL (after months and months of silence when he could have said something) to explain being turfed out of 'Jace Hall's database'.


(https://i.imgur.com/Dz8rNLp.png)

Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: SHLONKY on April 12, 2018, 06:20:22 pm
i guess this means final closure now then!

About 3 hours before the decision was made i learned that billy is left handed! Based on the fact all arcade cabs are left handed then realisticly if billy were to play right handed he would be a 500k point player at best :P

Joking aside id like to say thank you to everyone who put so much time and effort into gathering evidence no matter whos side they were defending! And now the decision is final from both sides (tg / dkf) then i hope those who were suporting billy can open their minds a little and accept the reality!

If you wanna love billy, you can continue to do so, im sure hes a great guy......just dont delude yourself!

When the musics over.....turn out the light!



Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: ChrisP on April 12, 2018, 06:30:17 pm
i guess this means final closure now then!
About 3 hours before the decision was made i learned that billy is left handed! Based on the fact all arcade cabs are left handed then realisticly if billy were to play right handed he would be a 500k point player at best :P

I can assure you definitively that a left-handed player is capable of at least 986K.  Kappa
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: danman123456 on April 12, 2018, 08:21:45 pm
I'm left handed so yeah at least 1,059,xxx :D

i guess this means final closure now then!
About 3 hours before the decision was made i learned that billy is left handed! Based on the fact all arcade cabs are left handed then realisticly if billy were to play right handed he would be a 500k point player at best :P

I can assure you definitively that a left-handed player is capable of at least 986K.  Kappa
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: smf on April 13, 2018, 12:53:14 am
But a joystick with the left hand was totally new when DK hit the shelves.

I am right handed and prefer using my right hand for a joystick. I have no problem with right hand drive manual cars, I'm glad when hiring left hand drive cars on holiday then they are automatic.

Most people I have spoken to won't accept that cabs are set up for left handed play (joystick on left, buttons on right).
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: smf on April 16, 2018, 12:50:19 am
http://comicbook.com/gaming/2018/04/16/billy-mitchell-video-statement-vows-to-clear-name-donkey-kong-high-scores/

"Speaking to Old School Gamer Magazine at the Midwest Gaming Classic, Mitchell states he is working on bringing forward his own case for why his records should still stand."

“I’ve been asked to address things that are recently in the media. The fact of the matter is, now there’s a true professional due diligence being done to investigate things that happened as far as 35 years ago. In a professional manner, not in a shock-jock mentality designed to create hits. We will show that everything that has been done, everything was done professionally.

According to the rules, according to the scoreboard, the integrity that was set up. Not 2014-forward by the current regime, who wants to reach back 35 years. Everything will be transparent. Everything will be available.

I wish I had it in my hands right now, I wish I could hand it to you. But it’s taken a considerable amount of time. Witnesses, documents, everything will be made available to you. Nothing will be withheld. You absolutely have my commitment to that. We’ve been at this since 1982, and it’s not gonna stop now.”

WOW, just WOW.

"not in a shock-jock mentality designed to create hits" what, like pretending that you didn't have the opportunity to take part in the process and then releasing a statement afterwards to create hits.

This is the complete opposite of professionalism. If he has evidence then he can just present that, he's had plenty of time so there is no reason to wait. I haven't seen him say he needed more time before the decision was made.

Signed affidavit and pinky swears aren't really going to cut it. David Copperfield could get plenty of witnesses to sign to say they saw him make the statue of liberty disappear.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: QAOP Spaceman on April 16, 2018, 01:05:31 am
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Bounty Bob on May 08, 2018, 04:22:16 am
Wonder if he'll ever follow up on this?
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: safespacecast on May 10, 2018, 11:53:21 pm
My friends and I produced a podcast episode about all of this, if anyone is interested in listening.

https://soundcloud.com/safespacecast/billy-mitchell-the-king-of-kong-falls (https://soundcloud.com/safespacecast/billy-mitchell-the-king-of-kong-falls)
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: smf on June 19, 2018, 12:31:30 am
My friends and I produced a podcast episode about all of this, if anyone is interested in listening.

https://soundcloud.com/safespacecast/billy-mitchell-the-king-of-kong-falls (https://soundcloud.com/safespacecast/billy-mitchell-the-king-of-kong-falls)

I listened. I hold a pragmatic view of the situation, I found the podcast was too hard lined in his defence.

It ignores that he still won't admit to the deception, therefore it's impossible to make any judgement on whether there are any other possible deceptions. The "banning him from everything makes no sense" argument ignores this more obvious point.

Someone determined enough could produce an arcade board with tool assistance which would appear authentic to anyone who doesn't have access to an xray machine. You'd have to study every button press and joystick input and how the game responds to get an idea.

Billy appears to be sitting tight and sticking to his absolutely innocent status because he thinks if he admits one thing, then he'll lost his most ardent supporters. It's probably impossible to satisfy his supporters and those that see through the cracks. His insistence on mocking anyone who has legitimate criticism by branding them the LLC (Lonely Losers Club) makes it obvious who is playing to.

I'm looking forward to his response that he's been promising, I really hope it's not just a stalling tactic to gain him sympathy.

People aren't black and white, Billy Mitchell has done some good things but that doesn't mean he's not being dishonest.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: muscleandfitness on July 21, 2018, 07:34:49 am
Come on guys Billy is Innocent, do you or would you say that Billy had a Clause in the movie not to say anything if he did or not cheat.. This is Hollywood folks.. enough said Go Dad.. lit.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: QAOP Spaceman on July 21, 2018, 08:32:29 am
Billy had a Clause in the movie not to say anything if he did or not cheat.. This is Hollywood folks.. enough said

 FailFish
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Flobeamer1922 on July 21, 2018, 12:29:53 pm
Allen, pl0x.
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: Mario500 on July 23, 2018, 11:41:32 am
My friends and I produced a podcast episode about all of this, if anyone is interested in listening.

https://soundcloud.com/safespacecast/billy-mitchell-the-king-of-kong-falls (https://soundcloud.com/safespacecast/billy-mitchell-the-king-of-kong-falls)

Was the "episode" removed from that address sometime between this past Sunday (the twenty-second day of this July) and this Monday (the twenty-third day of this July)?
Title: Re: Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated
Post by: xelnia on February 21, 2019, 07:12:11 pm
ersatz_cats did some great work, tracking down video of an MTV interview from 2006 with RTM showcasing the 1.047M:

A lost interview with Mruczek has revealed more evidence against Billy Mitchell (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=2481.0)