Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated

[homerwannabee]

I don't understand why people are ignoring this.  The transition drawing of boards looks exactly like a certain version of MAME.  All the tapes do.  The odds of an Arcade game being drawn exactly like a certain version of MAME are astronomical.
I feel like the alternative evidence is simply a red herring.  Meant to divert attention from the plain as day fact that the transition boards are drawn exactly like MAME.  All of them are the King of Kong tape, the IVGHOF tape, the Dwayne tapes.  They ALL have transition board drawings that look exactly like MAME.  This is the problem, and this is the problem that really hasn't been addressed.
Until a rational reason can explain this I will remain on the side that believes that Billy Mitchell's games were MAME games.

[Mario500]

News article:

"Billy Mitchell Breaks Silence About Donkey Kong High Score Controversy"

https://kotaku.com/billy-mitchell-breaks-silence-about-donkey-kong-high-sc-1822815818

[dnickolas]

I saw the video, and was a bit disappointed.

It seems that Billy is using the Unfrozen Cave Man Lawyer defense. This is only meant to be funny to me and not derogatory.

“The only maim I know is what happened to my cousin from a wooly mammoth stomp. And who cares if raster is asian? Good for him. But what I do know is that I’m Billy Mitchell, and people keep wanting to put me in their magic picture boxes because I’m Billy Mitchell and have I told you the story about that time I ate all the dots and they flew me in a metal bird to a place they said was Japan to let me know that they recognize me as Billy Mitchell? And did I mention that it’s all on Dwayne? Hey Richie, remind them that I’m Billy Mitchell and how I’m the greatest.”

[Gavv]

Guys,

I would like to submit some additional evidence.  As the conversations continue, things just aren't adding up for me, from the technical perspective.  I'm not able to reconcile either scenario, given what is currently known - neither that the performances WERE absolutely mame, nor that they WERE absolutely true arcade hardware.

I think first and foremost, it is of extreme importance, because so much emphasis is being placed on the visual evidence of the gameplay, that the likely environment of capturing of the footage be replicated as best as possible.

Considering technology that was likely used to capture the video, without going into the hardware that was actually producing the gameplay, it appears that:
-The 1.047M video is a camera pointed at a screen
-The 1.05M video is a vcr recording of a direct feed

If there is actual knowledge contradicting these assumptions, and of how the footage was recorded, in part or in whole, please provide that information.

In both assumed scenarios, you would effectively have a 60 hz screen being captured by a 29.97fps recording device.  Even if the assumptions aren't exactly right, this is still the most likely scenario for the time period.  60hz screen being recorded with a 29.97fps recording device.

So, I think it's important we replicate that environment for analysis.  Comparing a 60fps capture of a 60hz signal is not apples to apples - twice as many frames being captured in this scenario.

Below is a video that as closely replicates the original recording scenario as I am able to without going to the thrift store for a VCR and some crappy old VHS movie to record over.  My cab is generating a 60hz signal, my video processor is at 480p/60, my capture card is at 29.97fps, OBS is at 29.97fps.  I also have my webcam at 29.97, capturing the screen (60hz).

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/226969998
I will let anyone who wants, to draw their own conclusions.  In some instances, like on L=1 rivets, there is no "lead-in" drawing of the screen.  One frame is the stacked monkeys, the next screen is the entire rivet level populated on the screen.

I will happily provide the non-streamed recording file to anyone that wants it for further analysis and comparison.

Now this alone still doesn't answer all questions, but I think it objectively aids the argument that the recordings were not provably MAME beyond the shadow of a doubt.  And I emphasize OBJECTIVELY.  I simply want answers, like I think everyone here, and I believe is the intent of the original analysis/OP.

There is also potentially some gray area being created in the visual representations from the differences between the following scenarios.  They could be meaningless, but they could also be affecting the visual results.  Based on my assumptions above of the original recording environment:
-1.047M tape - analog screen, analog recording (external to the screen)
-1.05M tape - analog generation, analog recording
Compared against:
-My direct feed - analog generation at gameboard, digital capture
-Jeremy's camera phone - analog screen, digital video recording
 

Actually your set up isn't correctly testing the real conditions.  You are not emulating the process of NTSC video , your capture is immediately turning the 60 Hz input into progressive 29.97 Hz , and that same progressive 29.97 being streamed even at whatever fps that OBS is running (whether OBS is at 29.97 or not).  You're taking out *much more* information from the signal before it gets to your stream than even humble VHS does.  All be it with less resolution (VHS NTSC effective resolution is about 352x240 by 60 interlaced fields per second).  The VHS is not capturing 29.97/30 frames, it's capturing 59.94/60 fields per second.  If you're capturing in order to test this you need to do an initial digital capture at 60 frames per second if you're recording either a 60fps progressive monitor or a 60field-per-second NTSC video in order to compare apples to apples. 


gavv

[Sock Master]

Below is a video that as closely replicates the original recording scenario as I am able to without going to the thrift store for a VCR and some crappy old VHS movie to record over.  My cab is generating a 60hz signal, my video processor is at 480p/60, my capture card is at 29.97fps, OBS is at 29.97fps.  I also have my webcam at 29.97, capturing the screen (60hz).

Hi Chris,

What Gavv wrote is correct, but even if a recording was not done under ideal conditions it's still possible to determine whether MAME or a DK PCB was used.   In your 30fps recording 50% of the frames are absent so each transition will not show every frame that the DK PCB generated, but if you look at all the transitions in the video you can still see the key frames that show whether it's MAME or DK PCB.    Here's a screenshot of a frame from the first barrel board transition and it matches DK hardware.   Even the webcam using an exposure longer than 1/60th of a second so it's composed of multiple and/or partial DK frames blended together but this can be taken into account and the results are consistent with DK hardware.

[YesAffinity]

So, how would you 2 propose replicating it in a real-world scenario?  Thought I was hitting the mark, but apparently missed it.  And if hitting the mark, and it adds to the evidence corroborating that it was MAME, well that's okay.  I'm just concerned that using 60fps capture, both my direct feed and Jeremy's camera, isn't an accurate comparison.

[Sock Master]

So, how would you 2 propose replicating it in a real-world scenario?  Thought I was hitting the mark, but apparently missed it.  And if hitting the mark, and it adds to the evidence corroborating that it was MAME, well that's okay.  I'm just concerned that using 60fps capture, both my direct feed and Jeremy's camera, isn't an accurate comparison.

If: The 1.047M video is a camera pointed at a screen

Then the best way to duplicate this scenario would be to point a video camera at a screen.   One recording from actual DK screen and one from a PC screen running MAME fullscreen with -norotate and then compare the two results.   If I recall, the VCR showed a "Volume ---" or some overlay showing that the bottom of the screen was to the left.
Then bottom of the camera would be at the left side of the DK playfield.   A camcorder and VCR would record 60 fields per second, so no frames would be lost but the uploaded videos on youtube were downgraded to 30fps so half the frames were lost.  Reencoding the 60 fps videos at 30 fps should simulate that degradation.

If: The 1.05M video is a vcr recording of a direct feed

Then this is compositionally identical to your 60fps recordings (except VCR has lower detail).  The later conversion and upload to youtube downgraded it to 30fps so half of those frames were lost.  Reencoding the 60fps video into 30fps would simulate the youtube degradation.    Getting a MAME equivalent for comparison would require a video card with a composite video output and recording to a VCR.   VCRs record at 60 fields per second so the closest duplication without actually owning a VCR would simply be an .avi recording directly from MAME (60fps) then reencoding that video into 30fps to simulate capturing video digitally and sending to youtube.

I think that would replicate equivalents for A:B comparisons

[YesAffinity]

What version of mame should be used for the mame recreations?

[Sock Master]

What version of mame should be used for the mame recreations?

Some version of mame that would have been available at that time.  When was the 1.05M recording from? 2007?  Might be any version v0.122 or earlier.

[DonkeyKongGenius]

I am not surprised that Billy danced around the question in his interview. He claims that the video footage is MAME but is not the original tape??? So he says stuff that does not make sense and then yet still offers no substantive defense.  pls

[YesAffinity]

What version of mame should be used for the mame recreations?

Some version of mame that would have been available at that time.  When was the 1.05M recording from? 2007?  Might be any version v0.122 or earlier.

Ok, I found a VCR.  Thank you to my wife for never throwing anything away. 

Now, I have (4) external recording devices available to me.  Which, if any, would offer the most faithful reproduction of a camcorder?  The note about the Powershot outputting in NTSC or PAL refers to the A/V output on the camera, not the recording type.



In addition to those, I have my Samsung S8, which offers: 3840x2160, 2560x1440, 1080p/60, 1080p/30, 1440x1440, 1280x720, 640x480.

[Sock Master]

Ok, I found a VCR.  Thank you to my wife for never throwing anything away. 

Now, I have (4) external recording devices available to me.  Which, if any, would offer the most faithful reproduction of a camcorder?  The note about the Powershot outputting in NTSC or PAL refers to the A/V output on the camera, not the recording type.

In addition to those, I have my Samsung S8, which offers: 3840x2160, 2560x1440, 1080p/60, 1080p/30, 1440x1440, 1280x720, 640x480.

The Powershot has an A/V out?  I figure live A/V out straight to a VCR would be the closest thing to a camcorder recording (no additional digital encoding, 60 fields per second, 640x480 standard NTSC output.)
If the other cameras allow live A/V out, any of those would do also.

[YesAffinity]

Ok, I found a VCR.  Thank you to my wife for never throwing anything away. 

Now, I have (4) external recording devices available to me.  Which, if any, would offer the most faithful reproduction of a camcorder?  The note about the Powershot outputting in NTSC or PAL refers to the A/V output on the camera, not the recording type.

In addition to those, I have my Samsung S8, which offers: 3840x2160, 2560x1440, 1080p/60, 1080p/30, 1440x1440, 1280x720, 640x480.

The Powershot has an A/V out?  I figure live A/V out straight to a VCR would be the closest thing to a camcorder recording (no additional digital encoding, 60 fields per second, 640x480 standard NTSC output.)
If the other cameras allow live A/V out, any of those would do also.

I don't think it's live out, and I don't have the apparently unique a/v out cable.  I think it's only for recording from playback.  They all have a/v out, but same scenario for all.  My samsung can stream out live video at 60 fps.  Maybe that's the closest thing to a camcorder?

Anyway, I got vcr direct feed capture from the jrok composite out.  The image quality is about as terrible as Billy's tapes.  I have an option to capture the vcr playback as .mp4 or .avi, but there is apparently no option on my capture card to NOT interleave the video when capturing.  Thougths?

[YesAffinity]

^Scratch that.  This VCR/DVD combo only outputs component for DVD playback, not for VHS playback.  My avermedia C127 does not accept composite output.  So, I have to put it through my VP30 video processor which will process it and spit it out via HDMI so I can capture at 60fps on the C127.

480p/60 good for processing/capturing?  There is also interlacing on the VP30 and the C127, no option for 'none' on either.  Any concerns there?  I did a test run and it looks very clean, every bit as crappy as the original VHS playing back via composite, direct to a LCD monitor.

[Sock Master]

^Scratch that.  This VCR/DVD combo only outputs component for DVD playback, not for VHS playback.  My avermedia C127 does not accept composite output.  So, I have to put it through my VP30 video processor which will process it and spit it out via HDMI so I can capture at 60fps on the C127.

480p/60 good for processing/capturing?  There is also interlacing on the VP30 and the C127, no option for 'none' on either.  Any concerns there?  I did a test run and it looks very clean, every bit as crappy as the original VHS playing back via composite, direct to a LCD monitor.

I'm a bit less certain as to which way would most closely simulate the conditions that the original videotapes were captured then youtubed.  They might have been captured at 60fps and youtube then downgraded it to 30fps (youtube did not support 60fps video in the past) or it might have been captured from videotape at 30fps to begin with.   But the youtube videos don't show signs of combing so maybe it was captured at 60fps.

I'd guess output at 60fps, capture at 60fps, then re-encode that video again to 30fps.  If the final video shows combing (moving objects like barrels looking a little hairy/double exposed) then the interlacing confused the 30fps conversion - maybe try going to 30fps higher up in the chain.