Billy Mitchell's Direct Feed Recordings are MAME Generated

[timhett]

snip:

At least three unique direct capture methods have been created and dozens of new examples of footage have shown my original assertions to be correct.

THIS

If I hear any more talk about how the monitor is producing this or that, I'm gonna crap myself.

what about screen burn? 

[YesAffinity]

Many are missing the fact that the swipe is produced by the screen and NOT the pcb. And mame's captures are NOT produced from a screen recording but direct snapshots of the sequence from memory. This will be explained in more detail soon.

Not true.  This was explained in the OP:

"Real DK hardware, on the other hand, generates video in a "rolling shutter" fashion: the video generator scans left-to-right/bottom-to-top, while the Z80 builds the screen in memory from the opposite direction right-to-left, top-to-bottom. Both video generation and the Z80 are running concurrently with no "snapshots". The result is that it becomes fairly easy to determine WHAT generated the image based on HOW the image has been generated."

I have documented the "swipe" effect in 2 different direct feed setups (direct feed from game board):
1) My original direct feed setup - DK 2-board stack edge connector to JROK v4.1 to component output
2) New test setup - DK 2-board stack to Nintendo inverter to Wei-Ya CV-04 to component output

I was actually also able to replicate it unintentionally with MAME .122 feeding video into the cab via a Gonbes VGA-to-RGB -> Nintendo inverter board -> Sanyo 20EZ.  Inp playback was initiated with the -flipx and -flipy arguements, to make it display in the proper orientation.  It was suggested that enabling the "waitvsync" option in the mame.ini would eliminate this effect, but I haven't tested that.

https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/176004-Dispute-Jeremy-Young-Arcade-Donkey-Kong-Points-Hammer-Allowed-Player-Billy-L-Mitchell-Score-1-062-800?p=952596&viewfull=1#post952596

The point is, it is possible to replicate this swipe effect in MAME, but from all of my extensive testing, the absence of the swipe effect only exists when the source is MAME.

[homerwannabee]

Screens from the beginning have been used to project things onto them.  That's always been their use.  They don't change arcade to a certain version of MAME over 10 years ago.

[YesAffinity]

I can hook MAME DK up to a 1986 WG K7000 or 1983 GO7-CBO monitor via direct RGB (no A/V or composite video conversion board involved). Only the Arcade VGA and Jpac from Ultra Marc are used.

The game will run at it's native resolution at its correct 15Khz frequency Anyone try this?

Yes, extensively.

https://www.youtube.com/user/NoAffinity/videos?sort=dd&view=0&shelf_id=0

MAME .122->ArcadeVGA->JPAC->WG K7000

[PreacherPatriot76]

The order differences can be seen in the example used in original accusations. Mame draws barrels and Kong at separate times and arcade does it together.
What some are holding on to is the arcade producing a swipe effect in drawing up the stage and mame doing a clean popup of the stage building. Many are missing the fact that the swipe is produced by the screen and NOT the pcb. And mame's captures are NOT produced from a screen recording but direct snapshots of the sequence from memory. This will be explained in more detail soon.

Incorrect, since the monitor doesn't dictate the order in either the arcade cab or the MAME PC.

Arcade Cab: The Video PCB interpreting the ROM data builds the level. Only the monitor displays it in the order the Video PCB has built the level. The extent of what the monitor displays is based upon the frequency of the CRT electron gun uses to shoot electrons at the phosphorus inside the tube and the actual operation of the gun which always starts at the top left then works its way down. How this interacts with the Video PCB is that the PCB is tuned specifically to the frequency of the electron gun's frequency and scan line pattern.

MAME PC CRT Monitor: MAME sends the video information out and there is no guarantee that the video hardware will match the frequency of a CRT monitor's electron gun. MAME requires a broad spectrum of frequencies as it supports tens of thousands of arcade games that each use a unique frequency set up and tuned to specific hardware. Since this is all emulated it will never be accurate to the actual hardware. This desync between the video card and the monitor combined with all CRT's starting with the upper left corner highlights this with the out of sync rendering captured on film from actual hardware. The only way to remove this desync is to code MAME to hit specific frequencies for the video card and monitors which will be a nigh impossible task as there are thousands of different video cards and monitors worldwide and function differently even on the same chipset as the manufacturers decide how the timings etc... all work.

MAME PC LCD/LED: LCD/LED monitors do not use the upper left corner start point due to the fact it is all digital. The signal to turn on the individual pixels happens far, far faster then what a CRT does and hits all the pixels needed to display their colors at the same time. This will result in behavior that does not work identically with the original hardware. I have a feeling that the behavior using an LED/LCD display on a MAME PC will be close to or identical to the MAME PC CRT. You'd have the display rendering different parts of the frame that is out of sync when compared to the original arcade hardware. This is usually a result of the MAME software sending the rendering information to the video card and the order of the output from said video card directly to the monitor using a digital signal running at a faster speed then the analog signal on top of it having more detail.

Regardless of the method of capture what is displayed is in the order of when it hits the respective input from the video out. It does not affect how the images are displayed. What does happen is the introduction of lag.

MAME's avi record functionality actually records the audio and video streams as uncompressed avi. It isn't reading the memory, but rather dumping the images and sounds of the game directly into the avi format like one records a game onto VHS or other video capture devices. The mng format does the same except the audio and video are separate files. The only difference between a VHS VCR and a video capture software is that the latter is software only while the former is hardware combined with software. The software offloads the computational side of things onto either the video card or the CPU of the PC.

An arcade cabinet's CPU is not powerful enough to handle the computational side of things which is why various recording methods do the actual heavy lifting. A computer from when the Billy Mitchell MAME recordings could go up to 3.5 Ghz which is 3,500 times faster than what the Z80 CPU on the DK Cab. It can handle the recording of game play natively through the video card.

In any case, the monitor does not produce anything. It merely reads the signals provided by the software and hardware that is further up the chain. Think of this as a locomotive. The ROM provides the power with the CPU being the engine. The monitor is the caboose. It contributes nothing to what you see other than display the information provided.

[Josephjo]

The order differences can be seen in the example used in original accusations. Mame draws barrels and Kong at separate times and arcade does it together.
What some are holding on to is the arcade producing a swipe effect in drawing up the stage and mame doing a clean popup of the stage building. Many are missing the fact that the swipe is produced by the screen and NOT the pcb. And mame's captures are NOT produced from a screen recording but direct snapshots of the sequence from memory. This will be explained in more detail soon.

 

[maximumsteve]

OK Folks, here is the Billy Mitchell Technical Dispute Findings and Opinions (Visual Version) from Carlos Pineiro. Please watch and listen. Thank you...

[YesAffinity]

I responded on the TG thread, not going to repost here, but short version: that video misses the point.  Lots of footage of what it looks like when a camera records the screen, and that's great, but we already have that understanding.  We have learned a USB PC capture card was used - I believe that's new information.  Frames don't last 2/3 second as stated multiple times in the video (1/60, 1/30 or 1/24 of a second, depending on the recording device).  Would be good to get some direct feed gameplay from that setup, although I can't see that in any way changing the current understanding reinforcing that: a camera recording a arcade monitor doesn't look like MAME or arcade direct feed, MAME doesn't look like arcade direct feed, Billy's tapes don't look like arcade direct feed.

[person45]

Here's Billy's defense.

[Rev John]

Here's Billy's defense.

Billy says the (actual) DK machine screen loading in the video (conveyor/pie transition) shown look just like MAME.  What crap.  When you compare the footage to the gifs in the first post here they look like an actual DK screen.  I can only imagine that Billy continues to go on like this so that when TG inevitably remove his scores he can claim he doesn't understand / he's so innocent / he's been, dare I say it, cheated.

I hope TG are taking their time because they are checking Billy's other submissions.

[QAOP Spaceman]

Here's Billy's defense.

[JCHarrist]

Billy says the (actual) DK machine screen loading in the video (conveyor/pie transition) shown look just like MAME.  What crap.  When you compare the footage to the gifs in the first post here they look like an actual DK screen.

Yep, here's the shot in question.




And here's arcade and MAME:





Frankly , there is so much wrong in that video that I don't even know where to start.

However, he did clearly demonstrate that the Two-Bit Score converter does not change the way arcade renders.

[JCHarrist]

And here he completely contradicts himself:

[Sqrlmonger]

I'm very disappointed in this rebuttal, to say the least.

For instance:

• He kept using the "someone on the forum said [strawman argument]" routine and then knocking down said strawman argument (and even then not always accurately). 
• He would make arguments about things we already agree with him on (e.g. he spent damn near 7 minutes explaining a screen update and how the diagonal refresh line was a delineation between 2 frames visible at the same time) all while acting as if this was some new argument we had not considered or wouldn't listen to him about.
• He made many patently absurd statements (e.g. a video frame is "2/3rds of a second").
• He kept referring to the girders as girdles (not actually important, more just symptomatic of other issues)
• But more than all of that, 3 out of 5 of his "arcade normal" transitions that he demo'd around the 17-18 min mark showed the "finger girder" all while he was explaining how they were "arcade normal".

[gaknar]

fellas, i was in ottumwa in 2009 when that video was filmed. i talked at length with the owner of that cabinet. it was a restoration, not originally red, and it did not have an authentic donkey kong board in it. it was either a double donkey kong or a multigame. pointing at this and saying "see the arcade looks like mame" is moot. that is not an original board.