Author Topic: Any Questions About the Kong Off 3?  (Read 56240 times)

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Offline xelnia

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Re: Any Questions About the Kong Off 3?
« Reply #90 on: July 16, 2013, 09:57:21 am »
I had a bajillion-word post typed up to respond to the last batch of comments in this thread...but even I didn't care after I read it.  ;D

Basically, any arcade vs. MAME argument is a waste of time. Play what you want, as often as you can, as best you can. If you can't, then play what you can, when you can, as best you can. Stop giving a shit about what format other people choose to use.

And how would a 3D-printed arcade cab be any different from a MAME cab? Neither would employ original hardware.
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Offline TheSunshineFund

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Re: Any Questions About the Kong Off 3?
« Reply #91 on: July 16, 2013, 10:03:04 am »
I'm not really scared about original hardware, there are parts for everything still around from the 50's (and there are people improving original design and reproing parts still), it's the technical expertise to fix/restore that I'm concerned about.

I needed a Midway MCR generation board fixed so I sent it to the consensus MCR guy on KLOV.  When he stops, that's when I get concerned, not about the hardware itself, but the people who care enough to continue to repair it.  Most board repair is beyond my skillset at least.

In a way, I think when you grow up during the Golden Age of arcades, it's not just simply the desire to set a score on an arcade machine, it's a time warp back to your childhood.  People will always seek to get their youthful memories back.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 10:06:25 am by pwnasaurus »
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Offline Ohrami

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Re: Any Questions About the Kong Off 3?
« Reply #92 on: July 16, 2013, 10:24:30 am »
I still haven't seen anyone answer why it is that top mame players always put up an arcade score to show they are the real deal, but arcade players don't feel the need to play mame. Why do you think that is, if it isn't for the reasons I've been saying?

Perhaps because of people like you or Richie who don't think of MAME players as "the real deal" when they quite clearly are. Also, it could be that they just like the retro feel of arcade gaming; after all, this is a retro game, played mostly by 30- and 40-somethings who grew up when these games were new.

Actually, now that I think about it: I can't think of any MAME players who played arcade to "prove themselves" rather than just because they preferred it. Dean and Jeff learned to play on a cab in order to prepare for Kong Off II. Robbie did it because he wouldn't get a dedicated cabinet at Kong Off III unless he did; that's the reason Phil is going to do the same. It really doesn't make sense to have to play arcade to "prove yourself"; you're playing the exact same game with a slightly different control scheme. While I'm not that great of a player, my arcade performance is nearly exactly the same as my MAME performance. I don't think that it makes a big difference until you're at the skill level of Dean or Jeff, a level which most people in the top 12 haven't reached yet.

And you can always say MAME adds a certain % to your game that technically a 1,020M arcade can be greater than a 1,030 MAME, but that's very subjective. The stuff I've been dealing with on the control panel issues, button response/spring back of Mario, has really been killing my game lately that I actually have to change the way I play to accomodate for these occurances. When I switch back to a keyboard, hardly none of that happens. (Occasionally I'll see Dean get a no response button jump) but not near the amount I get on arcade.

Having played Donkey Kong on a cab and on MAME for the past few months now, I will say that I experience more lag issues on MAME than on a cabinet, likely because of Windows. In fact, I have never experienced lag or unresponsiveness while playing on a cabinet. Unless there is something wrong with your cabinet hardware, your button and joystick should respond perfectly 100% of the time. This isn't an issue with cabinets; it's an issue with your cabinet.

It's the old school mentality. It's not just about getting a high score, it's about doing it live in front of everyone at an arcade, at a big event. Deliver the goods when the pressure is on. Is this really so hard to understand?

So in your opinion, should only scores set live in front of everyone at an arcade, at a big event be accepted for Kong Off qualification? That currently is not a requirement.

It is clearly the opinion of the wider dk community that a score on a real arcade game is what will get you on a dedicated machine in the kong off.

I don't know where you are coming from with this. The majority of people I have heard from think that Richie has made the wrong decision, and wouldn't have done the same in his position. If it is the opinion of the "wider DK community", they haven't made it clear.

I don't have time to respond to some of the others posts I'd like to; I'll get to that later.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 11:04:50 am by Kyou-kun »
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Offline danman123456

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Re: Any Questions About the Kong Off 3?
« Reply #93 on: July 16, 2013, 10:25:10 am »
Only thing I think I want to say on this is where are you getting this "The majority of the DK community doesn't want MAME scores included" from George? So far everyone seems to be saying they SHOULD be included. Just because people HAVE arcade scores now doesn't mean they are saying "That mame stuff is weak". Again some of those arcade scores are only because they got to compete in KO2.

This affects both Phil and Robbie right now Dave. Robbie's Score of 1.021 isn't a legit TG score either so now how do you deal with that?  Robbie's 1.07 mame score isn't "remarkable"? It's 5th place ALL time so that seems pretty remarkable to me.

Also the marathon analogy is actually quite false here. You must put up a SANCTIONED time at an event you COMPETE it. It's not go outside and just run a marathon and say "See here is my 3 hour time I just ran outside". BOTH Mame and your personal Arcade Cabinet would be a treadmill then if you want to compare it like that.

Just for the sake of asking who here believes MAME scores don't matter? If I look at the scoreboard and make some of my own assumptions:

Dean - No
Hank - I am not sure but i believe he thinks MAME scores are valid accomplishments.
Vince - No
Jeff W - No
Robbie - No
Steve W - No idea but he didn't have a problem with it at KO1/2
Billy M - Yes
Mark K - No idea but he supports the mame culture pretty heavily so I would assume NO
Phil T - No
Shaun Boyd - No idea
Tim Sczerby - No idea
Dave McCrary - No idea but ill say Yes just since he supports the Top 12 Arcade :)
Jon Mckinnell - No (Not sure)
Mike G - Yes?
Steve Wilt - ?
Kyle Goe - ?
Ben Falls - No
Svavar - No
Estel - No?
Jeff Wolfe - No?
Ross B - No
Ben Mazowite -?
Corey Chambers - No
Eric Howard - ?
Daniel Dock -?
Jimmy L ?
Scott Kessler - No

So that is what maybe 3 or 4 confirmed yes out of 25 people? I could be wrong on some but even so I would say that 3 out of 4 support it at a minimum. Isn't this a good thing? People are excited about this game and WANT to compete and play and be PART of this community! :D
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Offline Xermon54

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Re: Any Questions About the Kong Off 3?
« Reply #94 on: July 16, 2013, 11:17:20 am »
Hank without a doubt wants to include MAME players. Steve Wiebe also (he knows MAME players are freaking good). Billy Mitchell... he's got to say he wants MAME players to be included at KO3 after what happened at KO2.

I would've understood NOT including MAME scores if MAME players wouldn't have performed well at KO1 and KO2, but the truth is that MAME players did incredible at both Kong Off's, even if they had never really played on a machine (especially at KO2).

And every MAME players I know could practice a little bit on a DK machine before going to the Kong Off 3 so they get used to the joystick/jump button/screen/etc. And even myself, that now plays on arcade, I'll need to get used to the machine I will play at Kong Off 3, since every DK machine are different with the joystick/jump button (sometime screen ratio).

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Offline homerwannabee

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Re: Any Questions About the Kong Off 3?
« Reply #95 on: July 16, 2013, 11:21:39 am »
Since we are naming names of who is Yes or No, there are a few others in the Yes camp.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 11:33:48 am by homerwannabee »
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Re: Any Questions About the Kong Off 3?
« Reply #96 on: July 16, 2013, 11:31:39 am »
George Leutz is cause trouble again!  As far as the MAME and cab debate from me personally I learned playing on the cab at Funspot, then went home to practice on MAME.  I personally just use MAME for practice which is the main reason why don't record INPs or submit to MARP.  But I may be an exception since I live so close to Funspot.  I wanted to practice on MAME before I went through the trouble of going up to Funspot's cab, buying a camera, and setting up a recording some attempts.  Once I got the 1.07 score I felt like I was ready, and I ended up getting a good score recorded.  I will be sending it out so it can be verified. 

As far as it goes with the decision to accept MAME scores for the Kong Off 3, it is mainly opinion based.  There is a lot of respect and a large following when it comes to MAME players.  But Richie isn't a fan of MAME, so his opinion reflects on the outcome for the event.  When I got the 1.07 I wanted to get a score on a cab just in case MAME was not accepted.  Keep in mind that there's over 3 months for players to get a recorded score on a cab before the deadline.  If any MAME players want to play in the Kong Off on a dedicated cab bad enough, they will find a way.

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Re: Any Questions About the Kong Off 3?
« Reply #97 on: July 16, 2013, 11:42:22 am »
I think the point of this thread is getting blurred.

The issue is not whether MAME players should be included or not.  I think 100% of people want to include the MAME players.

Many people may not know this but the reason Jeff Willms was invited to KO2 was because of (at least) 2 people on these forums who probably fall into the "arcade camp" who spoke to Richie and said this guy needs to get invited even though he did not have 1M on arcade at the time.  EVERYONE wants to see the best of the best go at it.  MAME OR arcade. 

This issue is: should MAME scores be allowed as qualifying scores for KO3?

Discuss.  I mean argue.

Offline mikegmi2

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Re: Any Questions About the Kong Off 3?
« Reply #98 on: July 16, 2013, 12:13:33 pm »
I don't belong in the "yes camp".

MAME scores of course 'matter'.  They're just as significant as arcade scores.

This isn't about skill, per se.  Being Phil T. is "the one" currently, using him as an example...does he deserve to play in the KO3 based on his 1.05M game, of course he does...i've watched his streams and his WR 1-1 game, he has amazing skill.

We are talking about 'technicalities'.

When U of M lost to Duke in the NCAA finals game because Chris Webber called a time out when they didn't have any time outs left, does that mean Duke was a better basketball team and deserved to win?  Not exactly...but technically they won because of a frivolous rule.

When an NFL football game is decided by a last second field goal where the ball traveled right over the middle of an upright, does that mean becasue the referees called the field goal 'good', the team that kicked that field goal is better and deserved to 'win'?  Not really...because if the refs called it bad the other team would have won...the refs decided the winner.

So what are the options?  Boycott? Quit? Go play on an arcade cabinet somewhere?  Buy an arcade cabinet?  Get Twin Galaxies to change or bend the rules?

It's their event.  It's their rules.  Without it, there probably wouldn't be as much competition on this title...so I for one am glad there is a Kong Off at all.  I had a ton of fun at the event last year, and hope to have as much fun this year.

I would predict that in 3 months or so, none of this will matter.  I don't think any MAME player with a score that is in the top 12 overall...will be left out...whether it's right or wrong.
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Offline Ohrami

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Re: Any Questions About the Kong Off 3?
« Reply #99 on: July 16, 2013, 12:46:27 pm »
We are talking about 'technicalities'.

When U of M lost to Duke in the NCAA finals game because Chris Webber called a time out when they didn't have any time outs left, does that mean Duke was a better basketball team and deserved to win?  Not exactly...but technically they won because of a frivolous rule.

When an NFL football game is decided by a last second field goal where the ball traveled right over the middle of an upright, does that mean becasue the referees called the field goal 'good', the team that kicked that field goal is better and deserved to 'win'?  Not really...because if the refs called it bad the other team would have won...the refs decided the winner.

I don't know or care about sports, but from what I've heard, there seems to be a rule within the game itself which requires a referee to make calls on whether or not something is or isn't "good" or fair, and to call fouls and time-outs. Is this correct? I don't think it's a proper analogy either way; your examples are mistakes by referees and players, whereas the Donkey Kong ROM never makes mistakes in calculating your score (unless you consider the rollover to be one). The only mistake is a bad rule which doesn't need to be in place. You can say, "Oh well. The rules are stupid but we shouldn't do anything about it." However, that means the stupid rule (which has yet to be put into practice in the game's history) will never be changed. It's a frivolous rule which deserves to be changed.
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Offline mikegmi2

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Re: Any Questions About the Kong Off 3?
« Reply #100 on: July 16, 2013, 12:49:33 pm »
One other topic regarding the original point of this thread...don't think it's been brought up yet...

If someone submits a score, 1.05M or something, a week or a few days before the cutoff date, and that score was recorded months before...but presumably held back by said player on purpose...will the score be accepted, or discounted due to "sandbagging"?

Kind of a tough one.  I mean, given it's a legit score, and verified...they would most definately deserve a spot in the top 12 based on the performance, but would the unsportsmanlike way said player went about holding his/her tape until the last minute be enough for TG to maybe put the score up on the scoreboard officially, but not allow him/her to play at the KO3?

Or is that not unsportsmanlike at all?  Just being strategic?
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Offline TheSunshineFund

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Re: Any Questions About the Kong Off 3?
« Reply #101 on: July 16, 2013, 12:56:28 pm »
We are talking about 'technicalities'.

When U of M lost to Duke in the NCAA finals game because Chris Webber called a time out when they didn't have any time outs left, does that mean Duke was a better basketball team and deserved to win?  Not exactly...but technically they won because of a frivolous rule.

When an NFL football game is decided by a last second field goal where the ball traveled right over the middle of an upright, does that mean becasue the referees called the field goal 'good', the team that kicked that field goal is better and deserved to 'win'?  Not really...because if the refs called it bad the other team would have won...the refs decided the winner.

I don't know or care about sports, but from what I've heard, there seems to be a rule within the game itself which requires a referee to make calls on whether or not something is or isn't "good" or fair, and to call fouls and time-outs. Is this correct? I don't think it's a proper analogy either way; your examples are mistakes by referees and players, whereas the Donkey Kong ROM never makes mistakes in calculating your score (unless you consider the rollover to be one). The only mistake is a bad rule which doesn't need to be in place. You can say, "Oh well. The rules are stupid but we shouldn't do anything about it." However, that means the stupid rule (which has yet to be put into practice in the game's history) will never be changed. It's a frivolous rule which deserves to be changed.

In the end, the folks who run a tourney decide on how they want to admit competitors.  Say a 16 year old kid knew he was good enough to win The Masters, say his family even had a membership and he shot a round of 65 there in front of his family one day and some pro golfers also.  He figures that's enough to secure a spot, but the organizers state that the rules they set forth require certain criteria to be met prior to playing in the Masters.  Despite having crushed the same golf course the tourney will take place on, this person still has to follow the preliminary guidelines set by the tournament's governing body.   
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Offline Ohrami

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Re: Any Questions About the Kong Off 3?
« Reply #102 on: July 16, 2013, 01:04:45 pm »
One other topic regarding the original point of this thread...don't think it's been brought up yet...

If someone submits a score, 1.05M or something, a week or a few days before the cutoff date, and that score was recorded months before...but presumably held back by said player on purpose...will the score be accepted, or discounted due to "sandbagging"?

Kind of a tough one.  I mean, given it's a legit score, and verified...they would most definately deserve a spot in the top 12 based on the performance, but would the unsportsmanlike way said player went about holding his/her tape until the last minute be enough for TG to maybe put the score up on the scoreboard officially, but not allow him/her to play at the KO3?

Or is that not unsportsmanlike at all?  Just being strategic?

I see absolutely no reason not to accept such a score. What's the issue?
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Offline TheSunshineFund

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Re: Any Questions About the Kong Off 3?
« Reply #103 on: July 16, 2013, 01:10:05 pm »
One other topic regarding the original point of this thread...don't think it's been brought up yet...

If someone submits a score, 1.05M or something, a week or a few days before the cutoff date, and that score was recorded months before...but presumably held back by said player on purpose...will the score be accepted, or discounted due to "sandbagging"?

Kind of a tough one.  I mean, given it's a legit score, and verified...they would most definately deserve a spot in the top 12 based on the performance, but would the unsportsmanlike way said player went about holding his/her tape until the last minute be enough for TG to maybe put the score up on the scoreboard officially, but not allow him/her to play at the KO3?

Or is that not unsportsmanlike at all?  Just being strategic?

I would accept it as it followed the guidelines set forth by the process.  However, the player has to reconcile with the fact that some other players might, for whatever reason, frown upon holding onto their submission until the zero hour and is the risk of potentially alienating yourself in some ways, worth a spot in a video game tournament.
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Offline mikegmi2

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Re: Any Questions About the Kong Off 3?
« Reply #104 on: July 16, 2013, 01:21:25 pm »
I see absolutely no reason not to accept such a score. What's the issue?

Well, let's say Steve Weeberton scores 1,020,000 tomorrow, sends in the tape, gets his score verified, and he is sitting in 12th place.

Flash forward to the day of the KO cutoff, Oct 25th.

Billy Billerton is announced as having scored 1,020,100 by a TG referee, knocking Steve Weeberton out of the top 12 on the last day of the cutoff, ruining his chances of playing on a dedicated machine at the KO3.

Come to find out, Billy Billerton's tape was recorded 5 months before, in May of 2013...and he purposely held it until the last minute so he could submit it, knock Steve Weeberton out, and not give anyone else a chance to beat his score due to the cutoff deadline.

Fair, not fair?
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