Author Topic: Any Questions About the Kong Off 3?  (Read 56447 times)

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Offline Ohrami

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Re: Any Questions About the Kong Off 3?
« Reply #60 on: July 15, 2013, 10:24:01 pm »
Christian, not everyone agrees with you that mame players should be included.

Clearly. However, I've yet to hear any sound reason behind that disagreement. Why do you suspect that the proponents of Richie's decision think that MAME Donkey Kong players should be excluded in a Donkey Kong tournament? If it's intended to be a tournament pitting the best Donkey Kong players against each other, I'm sure most would agree that this is not the best way to go about it.

I would ask these questions to those individuals: Why do those proponents of Richie's decision think that MAME players shouldn't be considered to be among the best Donkey Kong players? If those proponents think that they should be considered to be among the best Donkey Kong players, then why do they think that the Kong Off should not be a tournament pitting the best Donkey Kong players against each other, and instead only some of the best? If they not only think that those players should be considered to be among the best Donkey Kong players but also that the Kong Off should be a tournament pitting the best Donkey Kong players against each other, why do they think MAME scores should be excluded?

I don't really see any good answer to any of these questions. If one of these proponents has an answer to my questions or has an alternative reason for believing what he or she does, please post and inform me.
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Offline tudose

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Re: Any Questions About the Kong Off 3?
« Reply #61 on: July 15, 2013, 10:48:27 pm »
I think you have a small group of DK players which you share opinions with that has become insular and acts like an echo chamber. You are mistaken if you think the wider community is in line with these opinions. And it is not acceptable for you to continue to make light of all the hard work Richie has done for everything Donkey Kong. It deserves much more respect than you are giving it.

hm im not sure why you would think the wider dk community if all for disallowing mame players to participate when that is just not the case. that being said, i no longer have an issue with the decision. it is what it is...
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giv

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Re: Any Questions About the Kong Off 3?
« Reply #62 on: July 15, 2013, 11:11:07 pm »
There are many reasons why not to allow mame in this very thread. Go back and look, you'll find many. Just because you don't agree with them doesn't mean they aren't there.

To earn the chance to play on a dedicated arcade machine at the kong off, you must put up a score on a dedicated arcade machine. What could be simpler.

giv

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Re: Any Questions About the Kong Off 3?
« Reply #63 on: July 15, 2013, 11:13:59 pm »
I have to disagree with you. It is clearly the opinion of the wider dk community that a score on a real arcade game is what will get you on a dedicated machine in the kong off. It is the case. The streaming echo chamber is not the wider DK community.

giv

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Re: Any Questions About the Kong Off 3?
« Reply #64 on: July 15, 2013, 11:21:10 pm »
This is one of those cases where a small but vocal minority has convinced themselves that they are the majority because all they hear are their own opinions. But the majority is silent, and disagrees with you.

Mame is a good tool for practicing.

Offline tudose

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Re: Any Questions About the Kong Off 3?
« Reply #65 on: July 15, 2013, 11:32:47 pm »
This is one of those cases where a small but vocal minority has convinced themselves that they are the majority because all they hear are their own opinions. But the majority is silent, and disagrees with you.

Mame is a good tool for practicing.

well thats unfortunate. i wouldve liked to hear everyones input on the issue. whatever the case, im going to pull out of this discussion
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giv

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Re: Any Questions About the Kong Off 3?
« Reply #66 on: July 15, 2013, 11:40:00 pm »
It's the old school mentality. It's not just about getting a high score, it's about doing it live in front of everyone at an arcade, at a big event. Deliver the goods when the pressure is on. Is this really so hard to understand? dkshawn I'm not addressing you here, I think you know where I'm coming from, even if you don't agree. This is for the die hard hold outs who refuse to grasp the concept, and catch the spirit of excitement that the arcade game brings. You streamers are just getting half the magic, running on half the power without grasping the concept I am trying to get across to you. Mame is mame, but the arcade game in the arcade is just not the same. Do it in an arcade game and you're legit. Why have all the top mame players crossed over to arcade if what I'm saying isn't true? Because they know you haven't earned your Fred unless you do it on arcade. I mean your cred.

Do you see what I mean?

giv

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Re: Any Questions About the Kong Off 3?
« Reply #67 on: July 15, 2013, 11:45:36 pm »
Go ask Allen Staal. Show him my last post and see if he disagrees with me. I guarantee he will say yer buddy fk mate lol qbert george is right.

giv

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Re: Any Questions About the Kong Off 3?
« Reply #68 on: July 15, 2013, 11:55:59 pm »
Arcade gamers don't say gee, I want to get the top mame score to really prove myself. Ah, I don't know why I bother. You guys have already made up your minds. Funny thing is, when you get to the Kong Off, you will see that all these opinions don't matter when you are living it. The energy will just knock you right out of your preconceptions. You'll shake Walter Day's hand and you'll be like mame what?

Alright I'm done ranting. You can have your forum back, Fred.

giv

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Re: Any Questions About the Kong Off 3?
« Reply #69 on: July 16, 2013, 12:03:35 am »
Perhaps we all ought to discuss this on the Arcade Culture show coming up?

It will be scintillating!

Be careful what you wish for. You may end up getting a mame vs arcade discussion moderated by Freeko.

Offline ChrisP

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Re: Any Questions About the Kong Off 3?
« Reply #70 on: July 16, 2013, 12:16:22 am »
Christian, if you don't see a sound reason for excluding high MAME scores from the list, remember that there doesn't have to be a sound reason. I think that's the point that you and some others are missing. It's Richie's personal, aesthetic preference. He wants the 12 guys at the top of the arcade scoreboard. That's his right, regardless of how "sound" it is or isn't.

Aside from the personal reasons, it also makes sense from a business standpoint to promote action on the flagship scoreboard - the DK arcade list - maintained by the company that he now co-owns.

I could argue against the logic and fairness of his stance until my keyboard breaks, but those arguments simply don't matter. It's not a logical decision, it's a personal one. And if you put energy into logical arguments against personal/emotional standpoints on things, you're just gonna drive yourself crazy.

I totally agree with you that it's not entirely fair, for a whole bunch of players, for a whole bunch of reasons, but it doesn't have to be fair.

Quote
If it's intended to be a tournament pitting the best Donkey Kong players against each other, I'm sure most would agree that this is not the best way to go about it... why do they think that the Kong Off should not be a tournament pitting the best Donkey Kong players against each other, and instead only some of the best?

I agree, it's not the best way to go about it!

But using a one-time personal best as the sole player selection criteria isn't the best way either.

Simple example: If Player A gets five 840-860K kill screens in twenty attempts, and Player B gets a single 880K kill screen on a total creampuff of a run when his previous PB was 650K, and never killscreens again in the next 30 attempts, is Player B a better player than A??? Of course not, but under Kong Off logic, B is the better player because his PB is higher! The system is already flawed. It doesn't value or test for consistency at all, which is actually very important in a tournament.

Another example: Ross isn't anywhere close to the top 12 in terms of personal best (on our list he's 21st), but anybody who knows their shit knows that he's a complete master of the game and has to be considered one of the top 5. FFS, much of what the top players are doing to get these high scores was invented by him! The scoreboard (at least as it stands) wouldn't tell you that though.

You can't really get a true, analytically-sound "who are truly the 12 best?" without doing a whole lot of serious poindextering. Nobody's gonna do that, and if someone did, few would understand the methodology (and then they'd argue about THAT). People are having a hard enough time understanding the scheme for the wildcard qualifier tournaments, let alone arcane player analyses. There's merit in sticking with "Arcade Top 12", warts and all, if for no other reason that it's simple, straightforward, and understandable to anyone.

The no-MAME decision sits okay with me because I don't think that the Kong Off is really a tournament of "the 12 best Donkey Kong players" anymore anyway. KO2 was the last year where that could be reasonably said, but it can't this year, or ever again. There are just too many high-level players now that are capable of putting up a competitive score for the weekend. The difference between 12th and 13th is going to be matter of inches, from now until the end of time. Space is tight and it's only going to get tighter. Counting #12 among "one of the best" but not #13 because #13's score is 2,700 points lower is just silly.

So, I think of the main lineup at the Kong Off as exactly what it is: a contest between the people who have the 12 highest scores on TG's DK arcade leaderboard, and who can make it to Denver. No more, no less! It will naturally include most of the best players, but not necessarily all.

Besides, if somebody did something truly remarkable on MAME, something that knocked it out of the park and really separated that player from the rest of the pack, like a 1.1, Richie would absolutely take that into consideration. In fact, according to Ken, Richie said that he would. But it'd have to be THAT remarkable. You'd basically have to be another Dean.

But if you're, say, 1,030 on MAME and the next score down is 1,020 arcade and the arcade guy ends up getting in because Richie has a bias, well, tough beans. There has to be some way of sifting through the pile-up at the bottom of the top 12, and "arcade takes precedence" is as good a way as any.

« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 03:10:29 am by ChrisP »
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Offline alumbrada

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Re: Any Questions About the Kong Off 3?
« Reply #71 on: July 16, 2013, 12:18:32 am »
It's the old school mentality. It's not just about getting a high score, it's about doing it live in front of everyone at an arcade, at a big event. Deliver the goods when the pressure is on. Is this really so hard to understand?

Arcade gamers don't say gee, I want to get the top mame score to really prove myself. Ah, I don't know why I bother. You guys have already made up your minds. Funny thing is, when you get to the Kong Off, you will see that all these opinions don't matter when you are living it. The energy will just knock you right out of your preconceptions. You'll shake Walter Day's hand and you'll be like mame what?

Alright I'm done ranting. You can have your forum back, Fred.

You're saying taking MAME scores for the Kong Off would be like qualifying for the Boston Marathon by running on a treadmill?
« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 12:53:50 am by alumbrada »
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Fast Eddie

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Re: Any Questions About the Kong Off 3?
« Reply #72 on: July 16, 2013, 04:17:26 am »
looks like the wildcard divison will have its own prizes, and scores also count for the overall standings...does that mean a WC player can take both 1st place prizes?

if so thats not a half bad compromise for 1m+ mame players excluded from the top 12, if they really can cut it on arcade controls they should be a shoe in for their own cab on sunday...who wants to sit on a stool for 2 full days anyway!

 8)
« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 04:20:41 am by Fast Eddie »

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Re: Any Questions About the Kong Off 3?
« Reply #73 on: July 16, 2013, 05:10:00 am »
It's the same in any tournament...if you don't like the rules set forth by the organizer, don't compete.  There would appear to be many willing participants so I don't think the organizers feel it would be an issue and as long as those featured in film such as Billy, Steve, Fred and Hank are there, the revenue for all involved will be solid which keeps this event alive in the long run.
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Offline LMDAVE

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Re: Any Questions About the Kong Off 3?
« Reply #74 on: July 16, 2013, 06:01:05 am »
Besides, if somebody did something truly remarkable on MAME, something that knocked it out of the park and really separated that player from the rest of the pack, like a 1.1, Richie would absolutely take that into consideration. In fact, according to Ken, Richie said that he would. But it'd have to be THAT remarkable. You'd basically have to be another Dean.

Well, I do think Robbie's 1.07M given that it beat Billy and Steve's should be considered that then, but he's already did something on arcade that might hold up.

But if you're, say, 1,030 on MAME and the next score down is 1,020 arcade and the arcade guy ends up getting in because Richie has a bias, well, tough beans. There has to be some way of sifting through the pile-up at the bottom of the top 12, and "arcade takes precedence" is as good a way as any.

And you can always say MAME adds a certain % to your game that technically a 1,020M arcade can be greater than a 1,030 MAME, but that's very subjective. The stuff I've been dealing with on the control panel issues, button response/spring back of Mario, has really been killing my game lately that I actually have to change the way I play to accomodate for these occurances. When I switch back to a keyboard, hardly none of that happens. (Occasionally I'll see Dean get a no response button jump) but not near the amount I get on arcade.

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