Author Topic: DK Forum Archives (TG, Funspot, etc)  (Read 12583 times)

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Offline marinomitch13

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DK Forum Archives (TG, Funspot, etc)
« on: September 30, 2013, 01:56:53 pm »
Ok, so I just did like and hour of searching through the old TG archives for the Million Point March Thread, but came up empty handed (I'm sure Chris P. has probably tired this already too). If anyone ends up finding a link to that thread, please post it here.!

However, while searching, I did find many other useful threads that were, for one reason or another, preserved. I skipped over a few of the less interesting/short threads (I'm pretty sure I looked through all the available threads exhaustively) and compiled some below for memory's sake. Enjoy.

**EDIT: The Million Point March thread has been found and has been added below!**


TG KoK Statements

Steve Wiebe was Champ for almost 3 years
http://web.archive.org/web/20090819001650/http://forums.twingalaxies.com/viewtopic.php?f=86&t=10930

Why Billy's Tape was Accepted
http://web.archive.org/web/20110717115808/http://forums.twingalaxies.com/viewtopic.php?f=86&t=11027

The Restaurant Scene
http://web.archive.org/web/20090829140404/http://forums.twingalaxies.com/viewtopic.php?f=86&t=11148

Interview with Tim Sczerby
http://web.archive.org/web/20071222080633/http://www.twingalaxies.com/index.aspx?c=43&id=1498


KO1 Stuff

Richie's KO1
http://web.archive.org/web/20111108135157/http://forums.twingalaxies.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=25158

Billy's KO1 Prediction
http://web.archive.org/web/20110724062159/http://forums.twingalaxies.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=25485

Hank's KO1 Prediction
http://web.archive.org/web/20110724062156/http://forums.twingalaxies.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=25455

Steve's KO1 Prediction
http://web.archive.org/web/20110724062157/http://forums.twingalaxies.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=25474

Kyle Goewert, last second KO1 competitor
http://web.archive.org/web/20110724062133/http://forums.twingalaxies.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=25056

KO1 Day one is done
http://web.archive.org/web/20110724062200/http://forums.twingalaxies.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=25504

Hank wins, Steve second
http://web.archive.org/web/20110724062201/http://forums.twingalaxies.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=25509

Games

My Latest DK Game (the D&B controversy!)
http://web.archive.org/web/20110705031403/http://forums.twingalaxies.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=13924

Dave Mcrary 998,600 game
http://web.archive.org/web/20110724062207/http://forums.twingalaxies.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=25631

Hank's 1.09m WR
http://web.archive.org/web/20110724062155/http://forums.twingalaxies.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=25421

Eric Howard 957k game
http://web.archive.org/web/20110724062150/http://forums.twingalaxies.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=25318

Shaun's Blog
http://web.archive.org/web/20120831141037/http://forums.twingalaxies.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=25920


DK Strategy

Million Point March Thread!!!
http://web.archive.org/web/20110724064437/http://forums.twingalaxies.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=11639

DK tips I think this is as close as it gets to the 'MPM thread)!
http://web.archive.org/web/20110705031321/http://forums.twingalaxies.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=10467

How long does the hammer last?
http://web.archive.org/web/20110705031348/http://forums.twingalaxies.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=13851

DK Rivets help
http://web.archive.org/web/20110705031347/http://forums.twingalaxies.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=13821

Fireball point values
http://web.archive.org/web/20110724062202/http://forums.twingalaxies.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=25514


Misc

DK Cabs
http://web.archive.org/web/20110724062138/http://forums.twingalaxies.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=25171
« Last Edit: January 11, 2014, 05:16:23 am by marinomitch13 »
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Offline ChrisP

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Re: Old TG Forums Way-Back Machine Archive
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2013, 02:02:44 pm »
Awesome idea. I will have to go through my notes, but yes, I have some key TG threads, including much of the Million-Point March (yay!).

As for the Walter Day KoK response, I actually found that somewhere in Word doc format (attached).
http://donkeykongblog.blogspot.com

4 Quarters :-* - 800K Avg. Per Qtr. :o - No Restarts 8) - No Proof :'(

7/26/2013   Coin 35,946   710,800   18-1
7/28/2013   Coin 35,947   903,700   22-1
8/16/2013   Coin 35,948   694,100   17-6
8/17/2013   Coin 35,949   893,100   22-1

3,201,700: the $1 World Record?
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Offline JCHarrist

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Offline xelnia

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"Do not criticize, question, suggest or opine anything about an upcoming CAG event, no matter how constructive or positive your intent may be. You will find nothing but pain and frustration, trust me. Just go, or don't go, and :-X either way!" -ChrisP, 3/29/15
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Offline marinomitch13

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Re: Old TG Forums Way-Back Machine Archive
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2013, 03:26:50 pm »
Here's the Million Point March thread:

http://web.archive.org/web/20110724064437/http://forums.twingalaxies.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=11639

YES! THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!!!!!!

EDIT: OH, duh! I see... I forgot to check under the emulation threads!
« Last Edit: September 30, 2013, 03:30:24 pm by marinomitch13 »
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Offline marky_d

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Re: Old TG Forums Way-Back Machine Archive
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2013, 04:53:38 pm »
Here are a couple of interesting posts from the Funspot forums in 2003...I can get a direct link to the post to work, so I copied/pasted.

http://web.archive.org/web/20040511071524/http://www.funspotnh.com/discus/

Donkey Kong 900k+

 
Robert T Mruczek
 Thursday, July 17, 2003 - 03:45 pm
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Hello all:

As some of you may already know, it's official that someone cracked the 900K mark at this all-time classic.

What you may not know is that the worldwide press release just hit...even CCN.com now has the story posted in their tech section !!

Worldwide interest in the score being broken has generated unprecedented interest, and in fact crashed the TG site today once the CNN story hit.

Regardless of that, all vistors to the site also had a chance to read about the recent exploits on Mappy, Tutankham, Spy Hunter, Tapper, Gyruss, Zookeeper, and the other recent major records set, so some of the record-setters may very well be contacted by your local and/or state media outlets for interview purposes.

I am aware that the Zookeeper record recently attracted major attention in the local Maine papers, and the recent Donkey Kong story is a hit in the Washington area.

Classic gaming records broken is VERY much important news in today's pop-culture fixated society, so the next major score set will be sure to generate some serious media attention.

My honest opinion is that should anyone manage either 1M on Ms Pac or DK, that these will attract worldwide attention like never before !!

More importantly is that the interview I just did today solidifies my opinion that achievements on classic games are definitely "IN", so keep up the awesome scores, guys...the world is watching moreso than ever.

Robert
 
   
Curious
 Thursday, July 17, 2003 - 05:53 pm
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OK, I'll bite. Who is the someone who broke 900K?
 
   
Robert T Mruczek
 Thursday, July 17, 2003 - 06:16 pm
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Hello Curious:

A Washington-based gamer, Steve Wiebe, who also scored 1.004M on DKJr ahwile back.

I asked him if he was gonna try for a "triple crown", so to speak, and give DK3 a shot, but he's not interested at the time. I think he's instead trying for 960K+ on DK for now.

Robert
 
   
D_Harris
 Friday, July 18, 2003 - 03:38 am
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Not to bust anyone's bubble, but what I am about to say will no doubt come up in the future anyway, so I might as well mention it here.

I have it on good authority that Steve Weibe has a DDK(Double Donkey Kong) game. One would have to ask him to confirm.

Now if this is the case, then this game has inside of it a Donkey Kong Jr. boardset. that has been modified with a special kit(created by Scott Brasington). Now if this is the game he gets his high scores on, then the original hardware is not being used to set the Donkey Kong records, because, quite simply, there is no original Donkey Kong hardware in his game. In fact, even the Donkey Kong jr. scores achieved using that game's PCBs would now be debatable because of the modified roms and resulting unknown effects on game play.

This of course leads into the MAME rom issues again.(But that is another story).

Nevertheless, I personally think that the accomplishment is just as valid/difficult as if done on an actual machine/hardware, but that is just my opinion.

Well, now that I've lit that fuse... :-)

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.
 
   
Robert T Mruczek
 Monday, July 21, 2003 - 11:47 pm
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Hello Darren:

Thanks for the information. I have spoken with Walter, Ron and Bill, and we are performing due diligence at this time.

Walter has authorized me to inform you that we are currently having a bonafide expert review the performance shortly, to evaluate timing and gameplay. It is quite possible that this is the canonical ROMset, to use the term that Mark favours.

In any event, we appreciate your information, and will handle accordingly. At this time, and with Walter's permission to say as much, we are performing due diligence, and will advise when our efforts are complete.

On a personal note, the timing and behaviour appeared similiar to what is expected of the canonical ROMset based on a MAME recording I had previously seen in the 600-700K range last year. But my expert will provide the most precise form of investigation, and I will share the results when done.

Robert
 
   
Rick
 Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 07:45 am
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That is a good point Darren brought up. There are separate scores for MAME since it is not an original game/cabinet so this may bring up another catagory too for hacked boards. It will be interesting to see how this unfolds.
 
   
Mike Stulir
 Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 07:51 pm
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Robert, I am in complete agreement with Darren. If this score was not achieved on an ORIGINAL UNMODIFIED boardset, the score should be scrutinized. I would take it one step further and say that it should not be counted as an official world record. There are just too many questions. This seems like a "no-brainer" so I will be VERY curious to see what the final decision is.

Does anyone have any idea if this guy got his score on an original or modified boardset? Does this mean that scores achieved on a Multi-Pac upgrade, or MultiWilliams board, or even the Tempest boards with the multiple ROMsets will be accepted.
 
   
Robert T Mruczek
 Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 08:19 pm
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Hi Mike:

Like I said, we're going thru the investigative process now. By tomorrow I will have an expert start reviewing the tape itself.

As for the other issues mentioned, I'll discuss with Walter, Ron, Mark & Brien.

When more data comes in, and decisions are made, we will advise all.

Robert
 
   
Gregory S. Erway
 Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 10:23 pm
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Just for the sake of putting the info out there. Check out the following link:

http://www.mikesarcade.com/cgi-bin/store.pl?action=url&page=prod/ddk/ddk.html

At the bottom of the page is a good description of sound differences between a regular DK board and a DK Jr. DDK board upgrade. It even has a link to listen to the differences between a few of the sounds. Seems like this can be used to verify if the sounds are correct on the DK Steve used.

I have 4 DK boards and 2 DK Jr. boards myself. I've thought about converting one Jr. to a DDK just to leave in for the ease of others to choose. But if I were to make a serious attempt at recording a score to submit to TG I would swap out the board with a regular one first. Lets hope that Steve did exactly that. Otherwise I have to agree with Darren on this one. We'll wait to hear more. Thanks Robert.

This does bring up some interesting subjects though. Take for example a part dies on a normal boardset. A replacment is found but it is not exact because the part is obsolete. The new part is equivalent but actually better. Maybe it is a chip with a faster access speed. Maybe we're talking about a clock crystal here. Whatever. I can see arguments that maybe these "fixed" boards couldn't be used!? In theory the Multi-Pac, Multi-Williams, etc. type games simply throw all the ROM images onto 1 single chip and then a table lookup is done for which game to play and the correct address is accessed to load the proper ROM image. So the game play should be exact. The other hardware is just there to support the larger ROM size to store all the games. Once the proper game is loaded then the play should be exact. It's a big can of worms this gets us into isn't it!
 
   
mspaeth
 Friday, July 25, 2003 - 10:55 am
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*Snort*

"A bona-fide expert to review the performance"...
That's funny.

A well-crafted pirate romset can be devised that would easily pass the "video tape replay" test...

In any case, I can pretty well guarantee that at the uS level, timing will be different, as the interrupt service routine is different...

From the DDK webpage:

"A single PCB that plays both Donkey Kong and Donkey Kong Junior. No special wiring or switches needed. Simply toggle between games at anytime by pressing both the player-1 and player-2 start buttons at the same time. click here for more information. "

If you can switch games at any time, then there must be code added to the interrupt service routine to check to see if both start buttons are pressed... which requires at least 3 instructions (LOAD, AND, COMPARE/JUMP), which probably adds 10 or so processor cycles to the ISR... If this code is at the end of the ISR, then there probably isn't any timing difference, since most of the game time is spent waiting for the interrupts to trigger, but if it's at the beginning, then the player has a few extra microseconds to move the controls before the code checks them 

FWIW: Clay's Multipac needs no code mods (due to the idiotic addtition of a 'menu button'... Multiwilliams does have code mods to rest to menu when P1-P2 are pressed, and defender requires major code hacks to work... Multipede, multiqbert, etc are also all modified (software switch settings, menu resets, etc).

My berzerk/frenzy multigame will use the original unmodified frenzy code, but the berzerk code WILL be modified to remap the scratch ram to the same hardware location as on frenzy, but that will not affect the timing.
 
   
Rick
 Friday, July 25, 2003 - 04:05 pm
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If it is true about him playing a DDK board then this boardset and its specific timings should have been verifed before the information was sent around the world proclaiming a new Donkey Kong record. How do you say you slipped up and made a mistake if it's discovered later on not to be a record?
 
   
Guest
 Friday, July 25, 2003 - 08:20 pm
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"Gee, Mark, you seem to have all the answers but provide no solution. Are you volunteering to review this tape and all the hundreds of others from now on ?"
 
   
Okami
 Friday, July 25, 2003 - 09:06 pm
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[Mark wrote]
(A well-crafted pirate romset can be devised that would easily pass the "video tape replay" test...)

Purely opinion, which also heavily relies upon complete speculation as to who watches the replay and their ability to judge the honesty of the playing skill and performance of the submission.

It's amazed at how people are so quick to take away or detract from a record that Steve has obviously worked very hard to get. I don't think any of you actually believe he cheated. Deep down, you KNOW he earned it, but you just want to ball and nit-pick to "burst bubbles". Weak...

I'm also disappointed the constant critical attitude some people have against Twin Galaxies. The experts there don't get paid a single red cent, yet have to devote hours a week of unappreciated hard work out of pure love for the gaming community. In fact, they actually PAY money out of their own pockets to provide such a free service. Are you willing to put that much commitment into a thankless cause and get put under a microscope while you do it? Would you like to spend just about all your free time watching countless hours of records, write reports, draft contest & rules, pay MONEY out of your own pocket, just to be criticized for your efforts? The people there do their best and don't deserve that kind of crap. You don't pay a dime for their work, so start paying up the big bucks if you want everything your way.
 
   
Walter Day
 Saturday, July 26, 2003 - 04:23 pm
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The only way that Twin Galaxies can keep track of the myriad permutations found in the growing gaming hobby is by receiving help from the players.

I consider this family of players a very closeknit group, one which can work together.

In this light, I thank Mark Spaeth and Darren Harris for the information they have brought to light in this message board.

If it is found that the DK record was performed on an unacceptible romset, the record will be publicly reversed. Adventures like this will always arise as long as there are areas of knowledrge that are still unfathomed.

Twin Galaxies can't know everything. In fact, the issue concerning the DDK score is the kind of problem that will surface again and again in the next few years. Its a learning experience for all of us -- TG and players-at-large.

But this is good. Its part of growth. If a player has vital information that helps us judge a record, we hope that the player submits this information.

But, Its TG's responsibility to try and act justly, using the info we are given, and then enforce the decisions that are made. And, I believe that the decisions are, hopefully, the correct ones, and that they will benefit all of us for years to come, giving an anchor to this growing hobby, establishing it as a true sport.
 
   
D_Harris
 Saturday, July 26, 2003 - 07:03 pm
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Has it been established with certainty what boardset was used? Hasn't anyone spoken with Steve Weibe?

I did originally think that players were now supposed to videotape the the game board/s right after the record score was acheived, buy opening up the game and zooming in on the hardware.(But perhaps I am mistaken).

Initially, I didn't realize what a big deal this score had become. Nevertheless, I don't think that publicly reversing the record is necessary, becuase it seems that all that would need to be done is to create a category for DDK-Donkey Kong.

And perhaps get a signed and notarized affidavit from the hacker that the roms are and behave exactly as the original as far as game-play is concerned. :-)

Anyway, I'm not saying that I like this idea, but T.G. has already set a precedent for tracking scores acheived on hardware that isn't the original(or doesn't have the exact duplicate parts as the original). ie: Ms.Pac-man Turbo.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.
 
   
Gregory S. Erway
 Saturday, July 26, 2003 - 08:00 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well written reply Walter. I'm glad you keep track of things going on over here as well as the regular TG forums. I agree completly with what you said. It seems more and more "Multi" type boards are coming out and it is near impossible to know everything about each possible one much less even know which exist without the help of all the gamers. There is a vast knowledge base out there and all we have to due is say something and TG will handle the matter appropriatly as soon as enough information is gathered for the situation.

Either way the score Steve put up is incredible. Whether it ends up in a new DDK category or remains where it is, he's got my respect.
 
   
Walter Day
 Saturday, July 26, 2003 - 10:13 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You are right, Darren, Steve's accomplishment would be transferred to a new category for the DDK. His hold on the traditional DK record would be relinquished, however.


As for further embellishments on the required specs for videotape, I think we are far from the end of this puzzling problem. And, at some point, it may eventually demand game-by-game considerations.

Thank you,

Walter Day
 
   
Tommi
 Sunday, July 27, 2003 - 09:16 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Imho if gameplay is same, no harm done. Who knows what roms were used at some 20y old TG record anyway. If you make different categories for dk and "ddk", which is next step...different categories for all different "clonesets".

But if gameplay differs, then I think it's a matter of how much difference is there, and which way. Who knows which romset previous record was played with?
 
   
Mark Longridge
 Sunday, July 27, 2003 - 09:54 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
" then the player has a few extra microseconds to move the controls before the code checks them  "

A few extra MICROseconds, as in millionths of a
second?

Well, I'm as much a purist as anyone, but I don't
see how a few extra microseconds is going to help
any player. I bet Steve wasn't switching between
games during his record.

I agree that original hardware should be used,
but if I played a multi-game Williams machine and
it "felt" right, I'd probably say let the
record set on such a machine stand. Of course for
any serious gaming effort why beg trouble? May
as well do it on the original hardware, if
possible.

What? You said you played Joust with a blue
stick instead of the original yellow??

DISQUALIFIED!

;-)
 
   
mspaeth
 Monday, July 28, 2003 - 01:51 pm
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"Guest" is a moron...

I'm not dissing the 'experts', I'm just saying that a video tape is not definitive proof that a score was attained legitimately....

Simple case and point... breakout...
With about 5 minutes of work, I could modify a breakout boardset to eliminate the control pot as an input, and instead tie the output of the ball location circuit to the pot output... the paddle would track the ball perfectly, so I'd never lose the ball, and get a 'perfect' score on 1 ball.

With a video tape of the screen, how can anyone tell I modified the board like that?

Think the paddle movement is too smooth? That's OK, I can add a little more circuitry some randomness to it, and just make sure it's in the right spot when it needs to be...

How about the records for the B&W driving games like wheels, wheels 2, sprint 2, lemans, etc? The game time is determined by the R-C time constant of a pot on the PCB... maybe one day the game's hotter inside, so the resistance goes up and the actual game time changes, even on the same machine... Does the temperature invalidate a score?

My point is, all this anal verifcation of scores by videotape (gee, we can't trust funspot to have games set on TGTS and not lie to gain all the plublicity associated with new scores now?!) seems pretty ridiculous when it's so easy to circumvent.

In the case of donkey kong, after watching Billy Mitchell play, apparently one large determining factor of performance is how often kong throws erratic barrels (IIRC, he though the machine at funspot did this too frequently, too often). How can videotape prove that a seemingly random (but essentially deterministic) component of the game like erratic barrels hasn't been modified to make game play easier?


I just think everyone's taking game scores way too seriously 
 
   
Robert T Mruczek
 Monday, July 28, 2003 - 08:32 pm
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Mark:

No one doubts your capabilities of programming a game to effectively and convincingly play itself. Convincing "bot" programs can be made for almost every game situation, if not all.

The spirit of what game verification is all about is not about who can pull the wool over the verifier's eyes...it has been and always will be about good-natured competetiveness, plain and simple.

People originally played games for their own amusement. Eventually, and you all know the history, people found great personal saitsfaction in seeing how well their best efforts compared to others in the field of gaming. Someone noticed that, and devoted some time to pursuing this. Plain and simple.

Mark, I don't think it's fair to say that every gamer "takes things too seriously". Some do, some don't, and some simply enjoy being part of it or reading about it. Personal choices, that's all.

As for the "due diligence" process for the main issue at hand, here's what I can tell you for now...

1st - The game designer has been contacted, and his opinions have been received and are on record with Twin Galaxies. Many technical specfications will soon be available for evaluation.

2nd - The videotape has been watched by two experts now. All I can say is that there are no two better people suited to watching the performance than the two selected. I noticed you being very dismissive of the term "expert", even going so far as to misquote me and categorize him as a "bona-fide" expert. That subtlety aside, I doubt you will challenge this expert's findings.

On a personal note, within this thread, I have seen calls for checking the timing of a tape, checking for a pirated or well-crafted Romset, having "extra microseconds" of time, and even requesting a signed affadavit by a designer, while simultaneously downplaying a request to capture settings on videotape for purposes of basic due diligence.

Tell me...who is now taking gaming a little too seriously here ?

I have to publicly state the following for the record. At the time that the tape was watched, and the story was written, I did not know that a "Double Donkey Kong" conversion kit even existed. My colleague Ron Corcoran was unaware of it. Walter Day was unaware if it.

Reasonable common sense was exercised during the verification process. I had personally contacted the gamer at the time of the verification. No deception was evident. If you believe that this was not serious enough of an effort, then why end your last post that gamers are taking high scores way to seriously ? That's hypocritical.

A good-faith service and recap was the result of the score verification. Had Darren not known that a "DDK" unit was in useage, I seriously doubt anyone else would have noticed, especially since I know for a fact that slightly higher has already been unofficially accomplished, tape receipt pending.

I respect Walter too much and will not say any more negative than I have already stated above. However, I have to consider why, for the recent eleven world record arcade stories that TG posted, that more less-than-positive comments are resulting from this DDK issue than all the positive comments for all the other score reports combined.

Robert
 
   
Okami
 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 08:00 am
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It's because you have all these player-haters, who've got nothing better to do than to stamp their feet and look for any excuse to belittle the accomplishment. Like I said before, I seriously doubt any of these jerks actually believe Steve cheated. They KNOW they earned it, but as long as they can convince themselves their point is worthwhile, they will keep on player-hating.

As far as I concerned Robert, you needn't give these stooges another minute of your time. No matter what you do, no matter how much of your free time you put into dealing with their crap, they will NEVER let up until you DQ Steve. That's all they want and for the simple reason of player-hating. Oh sure, they can talk about such noble causes as "timing issues", but deep down its all about disrespect. It's sad really. I expected better of the older players, but they are showing themselves to royally suck as human beings.
 
   
Guest
 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 10:13 am
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Hey Mark -

Kiss my rear jerko.

Take your moron comment and ram it.
 
   
D_Harris
 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 02:05 pm
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I'm going to attempt to bring this thread back to a level of maturity.

Walter has always asked for help and opinions from the players in the areas of score verification and gameplay rules. He never shut the door on player input.

And since it is always in Twin Galaxies best interest to be consistent and have workable standards, many issues have to be addressed. This is always a work in progress and Walter has asked for help from all of us.

Greg, Tommy, Mark L. and I have already stated our respect for Steve's score, even if it was found to be accomplished on a DDK game, and no one has expressed any problem with a separate DDK category.

Mark S. and I are not the best of friends, but what he said was fact, and his points were on target. The only disagreement I have is that I believe that differences can be determined simply by watching a tape of a DK game versus and DDK-DK game. But only because of what Greg mentioned as far as audio differences between the two.

Rick's concern about having to retract a major score like Donkey Kong is shared by the rest of us. And it is a legitimate issue.

And Mike's note of how this would affect scores gotten on the various Multi-games is also very important because many of us have these kits.(And the last thing we need are a bunch of complaints in the future about record scores achieved on unoriginal hardware).

Accepting DDK-DK as a legitimate DK score would open the floodgates.(ie: My friend Abdner would now only have to come over to my house to break the Robotron record on my Multi-Williams game. Then there would be no way to convince everyone that the gameplay was exactly like it would be on the original game).

Nevertheless, no one here is attacking Twin Galaxies, or arbitrarily targeting Steve's score. Most in this thread have supported T.G. long before certain others knew of it's existance. We are attempting to resolve an important issue, so it'll serve as a example, and help lay down guidelines for the future when this issue will eventually come up again.

BTW, no one was "downplaying a request to capture settings on videotape for purposes of basic due diligence." But I thought that I heard(or read) somewhere that that was going to be a rule, at least for certain games.

And I don't know what is meant by the "less-than-positive comments" resulting from this DDK issue, but no one has come across any verification problems with any of the other recent records that I am aware of.(Again, this is just an important issue that needs to be addressed in an effort to keep the playing field level).

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York
 
   
Robert T Mruczek
 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 04:41 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello Darren:

Points well taken. Here's what I know thus far...full details to come.

TECHNICAL - Brien King, one of my fellow TG Board of Director members, was a beta-tester on the DDK project. He has been in contact with a gentlemen named Scott Brasington, whom you might already be familiar with, regarding the technical aspects of the DDK project.

I want to first make absolutely sure that I am clear with Brien as to what I can/cannot quote from the information received thus far before I post anything, but so far I do have record of his professional opinion on the unit.

VERIFICATION - You probably guessed who is disceminating the tape right now...the only person capable of catching any peculiarity, and the only person who could not possibly benefit from watching the tape. That being said, when I have both aspects of the due diligence performed, we will release all information and the final decision on how things will be handled.

Rather than jump the gun and indicate which ways things are leaning, all I'll ask is to please be patient as the 2-part investigation takes place. Thansk.

Robert
 
   
Robert T Mruczek
 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 05:17 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ach...wrong word...meant "dissecting", not "disceminating" !!

Anyway, word on the full review to come, then will inform all. Thanks.

Robert
 
   
Rick
 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 06:29 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Darren,
You are correct. Having to retract a score is not a good thing and causes skepticism when future scores are announced as people will question it as a genuine "record" or another retraction waiting to happen.

I have nothing against Twin Galaxies and I am not a player-hater as Okami calls them. Facts are facts. The entire thing boils down to this... Is DDK the same game as Donkey Kong? It's quite simple. It would have been nice if Steve, the player, had mentioned beforehand he did not have an original DK machine.

Surely no one here wishes to have the score disqualified, they only want to know if this is a true DK record or a new DDK record and nothing more. Some people seem to be reading more into this than there is.
 
   
Barry
 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 07:58 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Whoa, what happened here? I was reading some cool messages on fantasy game collections and world records and then WHAM, this comes up. Why does this not surprise me. 
 
   
Richard M.
 Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 10:46 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Were it not for Mark's unwise comment about "Guest" being a moron, and for Guest's very immature reaction to this, it appears that this thread would have been kept at a reasonably mature level.

Before posting something very negative, may I suggest that you look at what you are writing and ask yourself, "Is this posting really necessary?"

I'd like to hear of Steve Wiebe playing an actual Donkey Kong machine. If, as others have said on this thread, there is little or no differences between the DDK machine and the original DK, then he should be able to break 900K on the original and silence all critics. :-)

-End of thread-






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Offline marky_d

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Re: Old TG Forums Way-Back Machine Archive
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2013, 04:55:24 pm »
(Another related Funspot forum thread from 2003)

Donkey Kong - Conversion and Classic

Robert T Mruczek
 Wednesday, October 29, 2003 - 09:04 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello all:

Analysis is virtually complete. Except for additional minute details of differences that I expect to receive shortly from Brian Kuh, we have completed the analysis of "Double Donkey Kong" and what is regarded as classic "Donkey Kong".

Experts Bill Mitchell and Chris Ayra contributed to the analysis of the tape itself. Fellow referee Brien King managed to discuss the issue with Scott Brasington, one of the people who designed the "Double Donkey Kong" conversion kit.

As per Brien, Scott has agreed to let us post his OPINIONS on the matter below, as well as a few other interesting tidbits he provided. Afterwards, the official TG reply shall follow.

****************************

The summary is in MY OPINION these games (DKjr and DK) are identical to the original
for purposes of world records. Details (opinions) below.

a) the eprom speed has no affect as the CPU clock speed is the determining factor.
the eprom just has to be fast enough to keep up with the CPU. If too slow the
game probably would not work at all.

b) I have patches in the attract mode sequence, power up sequence, initialization
sequence, high score save sequence, etc.. These patches do not execute during
gameplay. There is one patch in the interrupt handler that is executed all the
time even during gameplay. For DDK I took very special attention just for this
reason and was able to make the P1+P2 check in the same amount of CPU cycles as
the original ISR (it took a clever combination of checking for coin input and
p1+p2 at same time).

Gameplay timing on this game is really determined by the frame interrupt. Which
runs at 30 (or 60) interrupts per second (I can't remember which it is). This HW
interrupt is the main timing to drive the gameplay state machines etc... This
is a very common implementation for classic raster games. In the 'backgroud'
DK/J take care of dealing with music and a few other misc housekeeping activities.
Each interrupt is when the game software checks for players inputs, moves the graphics,
checks for points to be awarded etc. So really the hardware has dictated that this
occurs for each video frame and the length of how many instructions executed is not
critical as long as you don't overrun your budget in which case I suppose you could
lose a frame. Again, that is why I was careful in making the interrupt path of code
have the same cycle timing as the original.

c) The sounds that are different are handled by external analog hardware. The game software
simply writes to a latch and the external analog hardware produces the sound independent
of the game software timing. DDK since it is built on DKjr hardware so the sounds are
those of DKjr. The sounds are mapped as follows.
DK pound is mapped to DKjr crash
DK walk is mapped to Dkjr walk
DK jump is mapped to Dkjr jump.
None of these affect gameplay in terms of being able to acheive a high score.

So my opinion is for DK or DKJ you can accept a score on DDK.

That being said, lets talk about a couple other of my kits....

Asteroids: My asteroids HS kit has extended scoring. In order to implement this
I had to add extra instructions (and vector instructions) in the normal gameplay
sequence. This extra code is to check to see if extra digits need to be displayed
and display them if needed. This causes extra CPU cycles and extra vector engine
cycles if the additional digits are displayed. Vector games are a little different
in raster games in timings. They don't really have a frame interrupt at a constant
speed, instead they setup a list of vectors to draw, tell the hardware to draw them,
then in the background setup the next list of vectors to display. The 'timing' is
more a function of how fast it can draw all the vectors. The more vectors the slower.
the less the faster. I don't know for sure, but I would guess this can cause
very slight differences in the game play from a timing perspective. Not sure if that
makes it easier or harder?? Additionally with the extended scoring, when the game
rolls to 100K, it continues to execute with hard difficulty (the original game when it
rolled back over to 0 would have reverted back to easy mode for the first 30k). So
in that sense asteroids HS game is harder, as the player does not get the break of going
back to easy every time it is rolled (since it does not roll over).

Multipede: Centipede/Multipede multigame: Since this game is built millipede hardware,
I think a millipede score on a multipede would be acceptable for similar reasons as above
about how raster games do timings and how the patches were applied. However, for
centipede on multipede the patches are more complicated. They are more complicated due
to how the trackballs are handled. So the interrupt path for centipede on multipede is
longer. I don't think this affects gameplay, as again, for most raster games gameplay
timing is controlled by the frame interrupt. But I can't be for certain it it is easier
or harder or same.

Hope that helps. Let me know if you have any more questions.

***********************************

At this time, the current TG world record will be reclassed accordingly to a separate category. We believe the score to be an incredible accomplishment in it's own right, and will always treat it as such, however for sake of purity, the reclass is necessary once the new category is added.

Additionally, Steve Wiebe contacted me this weekend and understands the situation and our position, and is in the process of acquiring a classic DK so as to compete on the real deal.

That being said, I trust that the matter is now put to rest to everyone's satisfaction. I just wanted to tie up the sole loose end and provide closure to the site where the information on the DDK conversion kit originated.

Robert
 
   
D_Harris
 Thursday, October 30, 2003 - 12:54 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Does that mean a completely different category, or the same with a "flag" denoting the specific(T.G. approved) hack?(Since these are now being tracked, completely separate categories are totally unnecessary in my opinion).

And since T.G. will now track another major hack(outside of Turbo Ms.Pac-man), what about certain Pac-man, and Williams' game(Robotron, StarGate, ect.) hack/s?

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.
 
   
Robert T Mruczek
 Thursday, October 30, 2003 - 06:24 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello Darren:

The platform will still be regarded as "Arcade", yet the title is not being considered a "Hack". Rather, it is being considered as a TG-approved variant in the arcade section of the scoreboard and upcoming Book.

The major hacks that TG tracks (Turbo Ms Pac, Super Galaxian, Super Missile Attack, can't be sure if there are others) are also listed in the arcade section, and are generally regarded as TG-approved "hacks" but are listed in the arcade category for simplicity sake.

Just like "Jungle King" and "Jungle Hunt", we will treat the two DK scores separate in the arcade category.

The DKJr score, however, will remain as is...there is sufficient evidence to substantiate that there is virtually no difference, including timing, between the two, as the conversion kit is DKJr based to begin with.

Hope that helps.

Robert
 
   
mspaeth
 Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 07:50 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's just bizarre.

The only hardware differences between dk and dkjr is addition sprites, and modified analog sounds.

Almost no code changes are needed to make DK run on DKJr hardware, so if the changes needed to add the game switching the DKjr are considered negligible enough to not differentiate between DDK DKJr and real DKJr, the same code changes to DK would seem to be just as negligable.
 
   
Robert T Mruczek
 Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 11:58 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello Mark:

Well, after the investigation and timing differences were noted, the prudent course of action was to track the two separately. The differences, unfortunately, are not as glaring as, say, the known ROMsets for "Marble Madness" or "Astro Fighter", but across 117 stages they do add up.

There were gamers that said the two HAD to be tracked separely, those that said "only if" the differences were significant, and those that said "not at all"...just so you know.

Robert
 
   
Rick
 Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 02:11 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert,
I can understand your interest in researching the differences in DK and DDK but isn't there some loss of objectivity when one of the experts analyzing the game for you is a current record holder on that title (Billy Mitchell)? After looking at the current book of records I see Billy Mitchell and Chris Ayra have a relationship that goes back to the original Twin Galaxies arcade so that appears to bring the objectivity level even lower, doesn't it? You know, buddies will stick together and back each other up.

After reading several postings from mspaeth, it would appear he is very knowledgable with computer hardware and software and probably would have been a better choice as analyst since he appears to have no stake in the outcome. What did the creator of DDK have to say about timing issues? Just my 2 cents.

Rick
 
   
Barry
 Sunday, November 09, 2003 - 05:39 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
An explanation of how the test was conducted is in order. Two guys sitting on a couch watching a videotape can hardly be called scientific. Rick, it seems the creator's input you were looking for is in the first posting of this thread. From what he has written, I doubt any human could tell the difference.
 
   
Robert T Mruczek
 Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 09:49 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Barry:

Thanks for the reply. I agree...human players watching a tape is not absolutely scientific. However, consider that wach has 22+ years of experience at the title, moreso than the originating programmers. If anyone can visually spot timing differences, it's these guys.

Second, we have the extremely detailed opinions of one of the gamer designers which pretty much states that the games, in his opinion, play the same for record and scoring purposes. Third, I have data from a third source, Brian Kuh, who plays this one moreso than most gamers and who has recently achieved a kill screen proficiency.

Add up all the empirical data and we at TG believe that we've covered all the bases, and with the right sources. For sake of purity, the scores are split.

As for myself, I place a great deal of implicit trust and respect in the integrity of fellow TG Board of Director member, Bill Mitchell, and know that he places what's good for the gaming community first and foremost in all of his gaming contributions.

Robert
 
   
Anonymous
 Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 07:44 am
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"..As for myself, I place a great deal of implicit trust and respect in the integrity of fellow TG Board of Director member, Bill Mitchell, and know that he places what's good for the gaming community first and foremost in all of his gaming contributions."

The employees of Enron thought the same way.
 
   
Richard M.
 Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 08:20 am
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anonymous' skepticism is understood and felt to a degree. I am willing to trust almost anybody at least a little. But I am unwilling to trust anyone absolutely.

Maybe the games do play the same so that an expert on the "conversion kit" version is an expert on the original. I think the proof of that would be for Steve Wiebe to play the original Donkey Kong to establish the record. His existing game should fall under a separate category.

And I see from Robert's post opening his thread that Steve is getting his own DK machine for this purpose. :-)

-- Richard M.
 
   
Robert T Mruczek
 Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 07:01 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello all:

The famous "Anonymous" posts yet again. This time, I do respect his/her opinion. No debate from me. However, I have to mention the following, which might be apparent to some but not to all...

-> Regardless of who you rely on for your scoring information and verification, know that the staff involved is likely small, less than 10 people (if even that many), none of which get compensated for their efforts

-> We do this in addition to full-time jobs and family concerns

-> In the precious few hours left after transit to/from work and what little eating/sleeping we enjoy, we dedicate that to the gaming community

-> It is in those few hours per week, which in some cases is almost a full-time job in itself, that we verify scores, watch performances, write articles, answer gamer inquiries, and tend to media requests

That being said, we do try our best to work with the resources at hand. Unfortunately, we do not have a multi-tiered group that can check the checkers and so forth...it's just us...we rely on ourselves and fellow gamers for the matters at hand.

Your "Enron" comment, though well understood, is an entirely different matter, as no monies are involved, only integrity. Say what you will about "Arthur Anderson" as well, but there too was monies involved. We are a free service provider for the time being, one which shares (moreso than most) results of investigations, extreme details of verifications, and more. Others do not share our enthusiasim for openess and full disclosure.

As for the trust I place in my colleague, know that there are five (5) Board Members, so a certain amount of check-and-balance is in place, for the sake of further maintaining impartiality within decisions affecting the gaming community. I believe that it is only prudent to have a check-and-balance system in place, trust aside, so that different perspectives are always consulted.

Again, your comments are well appreciated and understood, though I do not necessarily agree with the analogy in full.

Robert
 
   
Barry
 Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 06:32 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert,
My comments about how the test was conducted were meant to help you counteract the nay-sayers such as "anonymous." However, I had hoped a more scientific test had been conducted (maybe it was) since videotape watching can open itself up to scrutiny due to the analog properties of VCR's and minor tape speed differences between machines. I'm sure you took that into consideration beforehand. I do not envy your job!
 
   
Robert T Mruczek
 Friday, November 14, 2003 - 01:35 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Barry:

Well understood. The different VCR issue is a main concern of mine when viewing "fastest completion" events, or comparing performances on titles where difficulty settings proportionately increase speed of gameplay action. But in general, we are all reasonable when it comes to this fact of technology. Not all referees will have the same VCR, and not all gamers will record on the same tape type or speed, so we try our best under the circumstances.

The problem becomes even more difficult when the title is relatively unknown, or brand new, but again, we try our best.

Even so, under the best of circumstances, nuances can and do exist. But we're practical and reasonable about that in general.

Thanks !!

Robert
 
   
Anonymous
 Monday, November 17, 2003 - 07:54 am
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BTW, what is the last possible date for submitting scores for the TG book, and, is this date really the last date unlike all the previous "last dates" we've seen over the years? This is critical to my game plan.
 
   
Robert T Mruczek
 Monday, November 24, 2003 - 08:45 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello:

I would strongly recommend that interested gamers submit scores no later than December 31st for sure. You might risk as late as January 15th, but just to be safe I'd try no later than December 31st.

Robert
 
-End of thread-
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Offline ChrisP

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Re: Old TG Forums Way-Back Machine Archive
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2013, 05:22:06 pm »
F'ing fantastic.

That thread is like the holy grail of how the shitstorm all began.

(Although, due to the length of the post, I think it might be better in its own thread perhaps? It would certainly merit its own thread at least...)
http://donkeykongblog.blogspot.com

4 Quarters :-* - 800K Avg. Per Qtr. :o - No Restarts 8) - No Proof :'(

7/26/2013   Coin 35,946   710,800   18-1
7/28/2013   Coin 35,947   903,700   22-1
8/16/2013   Coin 35,948   694,100   17-6
8/17/2013   Coin 35,949   893,100   22-1

3,201,700: the $1 World Record?
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Offline marinomitch13

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Re: Old TG Forums Way-Back Machine Archive
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2013, 05:59:16 pm »
I'll just rename the thread to "DK Forum Archives".
"Thou hast made us for Thyself, and our heart is restless until it finds its rest in Thee." -Augustine, Confessions.
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Offline marinomitch13

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Re: DK Forum Archives (TG, Funspot, etc)
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2014, 05:11:55 am »
Jry posted this in the shoutbox, so I added it here.

Interview with Tim Sczerby
http://web.archive.org/web/20071222080633/http://www.twingalaxies.com/index.aspx?c=43&id=1498
"Thou hast made us for Thyself, and our heart is restless until it finds its rest in Thee." -Augustine, Confessions.
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Offline up2ng

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Re: DK Forum Archives (TG, Funspot, etc)
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2014, 11:18:07 am »
It's great that people are finding ways to dig up some of these old threads.  They are quite important for understanding the history of the competition on our game.

What concerns me is that TG may never come back, and if they do, they may never get their old forums back online.  Some of these "web archives" may eventually disappear as time moves forward and all of a sudden clicking on some of these links may lead to nowhere.  I think it would be great if someone (not me) would take on the project of navigating into these links and literally copy and pasting all of the content onto a local drive and/or potentially reposting the content directly into these forums here at DKF to make sure some of this stuff is preserved.
Donkey Kong:  1,206,800  Kill Screen
Donkey Kong:  898,600     16-5
D2K:                 380,200     L=9
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Offline marky_d

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Re: DK Forum Archives (TG, Funspot, etc)
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2014, 11:28:29 am »
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Offline Bliss1083

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Re: DK Forum Archives (TG, Funspot, etc)
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2014, 10:05:10 pm »
Awesome read. I had stuff on my old computer before the hdd crapped out. Mostly Roberts break down of the first million point game between bill and Steve and tims interview saying what I believe was there will never be a 900k game of dk.
Donkey kong  arcade 867,000 kill screen
Donkey kong arcade 1-1 12,800 12,200 12,100 and 12,000
Donkey kong end of level 4 132k
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Offline hooch66

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Re: DK Forum Archives (TG, Funspot, etc)
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2014, 10:50:59 am »
Wow!. Reply #7 in this thread is friggin' amazing!
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Offline marinomitch13

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Re: DK Forum Archives (TG, Funspot, etc)
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2014, 01:11:04 am »
Welp.... this thread isn't really needed (in terms of TG links) anymore!  ;D


Most of the wealth of DK knowledge that was missing:
http://www.twingalaxies.com/search.php?searchid=7579&pp=
"Thou hast made us for Thyself, and our heart is restless until it finds its rest in Thee." -Augustine, Confessions.
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