Here are a couple of interesting posts from the Funspot forums in 2003...I can get a direct link to the post to work, so I copied/pasted.
http://web.archive.org/web/20040511071524/http://www.funspotnh.com/discus/Donkey Kong 900k+ Robert T Mruczek
Thursday, July 17, 2003 - 03:45 pm
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Hello all:
As some of you may already know, it's official that someone cracked the 900K mark at this all-time classic.
What you may not know is that the worldwide press release just hit...even CCN.com now has the story posted in their tech section !!
Worldwide interest in the score being broken has generated unprecedented interest, and in fact crashed the TG site today once the CNN story hit.
Regardless of that, all vistors to the site also had a chance to read about the recent exploits on Mappy, Tutankham, Spy Hunter, Tapper, Gyruss, Zookeeper, and the other recent major records set, so some of the record-setters may very well be contacted by your local and/or state media outlets for interview purposes.
I am aware that the Zookeeper record recently attracted major attention in the local Maine papers, and the recent Donkey Kong story is a hit in the Washington area.
Classic gaming records broken is VERY much important news in today's pop-culture fixated society, so the next major score set will be sure to generate some serious media attention.
My honest opinion is that should anyone manage either 1M on Ms Pac or DK, that these will attract worldwide attention like never before !!
More importantly is that the interview I just did today solidifies my opinion that achievements on classic games are definitely "IN", so keep up the awesome scores, guys...the world is watching moreso than ever.
Robert
Curious
Thursday, July 17, 2003 - 05:53 pm
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OK, I'll bite. Who is the someone who broke 900K?
Robert T Mruczek
Thursday, July 17, 2003 - 06:16 pm
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Hello Curious:
A Washington-based gamer, Steve Wiebe, who also scored 1.004M on DKJr ahwile back.
I asked him if he was gonna try for a "triple crown", so to speak, and give DK3 a shot, but he's not interested at the time. I think he's instead trying for 960K+ on DK for now.
Robert
D_Harris
Friday, July 18, 2003 - 03:38 am
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Not to bust anyone's bubble, but what I am about to say will no doubt come up in the future anyway, so I might as well mention it here.
I have it on good authority that Steve Weibe has a DDK(Double Donkey Kong) game. One would have to ask him to confirm.
Now if this is the case, then this game has inside of it a Donkey Kong Jr. boardset. that has been modified with a special kit(created by Scott Brasington). Now if this is the game he gets his high scores on, then the original hardware is not being used to set the Donkey Kong records, because, quite simply, there is no original Donkey Kong hardware in his game. In fact, even the Donkey Kong jr. scores achieved using that game's PCBs would now be debatable because of the modified roms and resulting unknown effects on game play.
This of course leads into the MAME rom issues again.(But that is another story).
Nevertheless, I personally think that the accomplishment is just as valid/difficult as if done on an actual machine/hardware, but that is just my opinion.
Well, now that I've lit that fuse... :-)
Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.
Robert T Mruczek
Monday, July 21, 2003 - 11:47 pm
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Hello Darren:
Thanks for the information. I have spoken with Walter, Ron and Bill, and we are performing due diligence at this time.
Walter has authorized me to inform you that we are currently having a bonafide expert review the performance shortly, to evaluate timing and gameplay. It is quite possible that this is the canonical ROMset, to use the term that Mark favours.
In any event, we appreciate your information, and will handle accordingly. At this time, and with Walter's permission to say as much, we are performing due diligence, and will advise when our efforts are complete.
On a personal note, the timing and behaviour appeared similiar to what is expected of the canonical ROMset based on a MAME recording I had previously seen in the 600-700K range last year. But my expert will provide the most precise form of investigation, and I will share the results when done.
Robert
Rick
Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 07:45 am
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That is a good point Darren brought up. There are separate scores for MAME since it is not an original game/cabinet so this may bring up another catagory too for hacked boards. It will be interesting to see how this unfolds.
Mike Stulir
Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 07:51 pm
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Robert, I am in complete agreement with Darren. If this score was not achieved on an ORIGINAL UNMODIFIED boardset, the score should be scrutinized. I would take it one step further and say that it should not be counted as an official world record. There are just too many questions. This seems like a "no-brainer" so I will be VERY curious to see what the final decision is.
Does anyone have any idea if this guy got his score on an original or modified boardset? Does this mean that scores achieved on a Multi-Pac upgrade, or MultiWilliams board, or even the Tempest boards with the multiple ROMsets will be accepted.
Robert T Mruczek
Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 08:19 pm
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Hi Mike:
Like I said, we're going thru the investigative process now. By tomorrow I will have an expert start reviewing the tape itself.
As for the other issues mentioned, I'll discuss with Walter, Ron, Mark & Brien.
When more data comes in, and decisions are made, we will advise all.
Robert
Gregory S. Erway
Tuesday, July 22, 2003 - 10:23 pm
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Just for the sake of putting the info out there. Check out the following link:
http://www.mikesarcade.com/cgi-bin/store.pl?action=url&page=prod/ddk/ddk.html At the bottom of the page is a good description of sound differences between a regular DK board and a DK Jr. DDK board upgrade. It even has a link to listen to the differences between a few of the sounds. Seems like this can be used to verify if the sounds are correct on the DK Steve used.
I have 4 DK boards and 2 DK Jr. boards myself. I've thought about converting one Jr. to a DDK just to leave in for the ease of others to choose. But if I were to make a serious attempt at recording a score to submit to TG I would swap out the board with a regular one first. Lets hope that Steve did exactly that. Otherwise I have to agree with Darren on this one. We'll wait to hear more. Thanks Robert.
This does bring up some interesting subjects though. Take for example a part dies on a normal boardset. A replacment is found but it is not exact because the part is obsolete. The new part is equivalent but actually better. Maybe it is a chip with a faster access speed. Maybe we're talking about a clock crystal here. Whatever. I can see arguments that maybe these "fixed" boards couldn't be used!? In theory the Multi-Pac, Multi-Williams, etc. type games simply throw all the ROM images onto 1 single chip and then a table lookup is done for which game to play and the correct address is accessed to load the proper ROM image. So the game play should be exact. The other hardware is just there to support the larger ROM size to store all the games. Once the proper game is loaded then the play should be exact. It's a big can of worms this gets us into isn't it!
mspaeth
Friday, July 25, 2003 - 10:55 am
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*Snort*
"A bona-fide expert to review the performance"...
That's funny.
A well-crafted pirate romset can be devised that would easily pass the "video tape replay" test...
In any case, I can pretty well guarantee that at the uS level, timing will be different, as the interrupt service routine is different...
From the DDK webpage:
"A single PCB that plays both Donkey Kong and Donkey Kong Junior. No special wiring or switches needed. Simply toggle between games at anytime by pressing both the player-1 and player-2 start buttons at the same time. click here for more information. "
If you can switch games at any time, then there must be code added to the interrupt service routine to check to see if both start buttons are pressed... which requires at least 3 instructions (LOAD, AND, COMPARE/JUMP), which probably adds 10 or so processor cycles to the ISR... If this code is at the end of the ISR, then there probably isn't any timing difference, since most of the game time is spent waiting for the interrupts to trigger, but if it's at the beginning, then the player has a few extra microseconds to move the controls before the code checks them
FWIW: Clay's Multipac needs no code mods (due to the idiotic addtition of a 'menu button'... Multiwilliams does have code mods to rest to menu when P1-P2 are pressed, and defender requires major code hacks to work... Multipede, multiqbert, etc are also all modified (software switch settings, menu resets, etc).
My berzerk/frenzy multigame will use the original unmodified frenzy code, but the berzerk code WILL be modified to remap the scratch ram to the same hardware location as on frenzy, but that will not affect the timing.
Rick
Friday, July 25, 2003 - 04:05 pm
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If it is true about him playing a DDK board then this boardset and its specific timings should have been verifed before the information was sent around the world proclaiming a new Donkey Kong record. How do you say you slipped up and made a mistake if it's discovered later on not to be a record?
Guest
Friday, July 25, 2003 - 08:20 pm
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"Gee, Mark, you seem to have all the answers but provide no solution. Are you volunteering to review this tape and all the hundreds of others from now on ?"
Okami
Friday, July 25, 2003 - 09:06 pm
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[Mark wrote]
(A well-crafted pirate romset can be devised that would easily pass the "video tape replay" test...)
Purely opinion, which also heavily relies upon complete speculation as to who watches the replay and their ability to judge the honesty of the playing skill and performance of the submission.
It's amazed at how people are so quick to take away or detract from a record that Steve has obviously worked very hard to get. I don't think any of you actually believe he cheated. Deep down, you KNOW he earned it, but you just want to ball and nit-pick to "burst bubbles". Weak...
I'm also disappointed the constant critical attitude some people have against Twin Galaxies. The experts there don't get paid a single red cent, yet have to devote hours a week of unappreciated hard work out of pure love for the gaming community. In fact, they actually PAY money out of their own pockets to provide such a free service. Are you willing to put that much commitment into a thankless cause and get put under a microscope while you do it? Would you like to spend just about all your free time watching countless hours of records, write reports, draft contest & rules, pay MONEY out of your own pocket, just to be criticized for your efforts? The people there do their best and don't deserve that kind of crap. You don't pay a dime for their work, so start paying up the big bucks if you want everything your way.
Walter Day
Saturday, July 26, 2003 - 04:23 pm
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The only way that Twin Galaxies can keep track of the myriad permutations found in the growing gaming hobby is by receiving help from the players.
I consider this family of players a very closeknit group, one which can work together.
In this light, I thank Mark Spaeth and Darren Harris for the information they have brought to light in this message board.
If it is found that the DK record was performed on an unacceptible romset, the record will be publicly reversed. Adventures like this will always arise as long as there are areas of knowledrge that are still unfathomed.
Twin Galaxies can't know everything. In fact, the issue concerning the DDK score is the kind of problem that will surface again and again in the next few years. Its a learning experience for all of us -- TG and players-at-large.
But this is good. Its part of growth. If a player has vital information that helps us judge a record, we hope that the player submits this information.
But, Its TG's responsibility to try and act justly, using the info we are given, and then enforce the decisions that are made. And, I believe that the decisions are, hopefully, the correct ones, and that they will benefit all of us for years to come, giving an anchor to this growing hobby, establishing it as a true sport.
D_Harris
Saturday, July 26, 2003 - 07:03 pm
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Has it been established with certainty what boardset was used? Hasn't anyone spoken with Steve Weibe?
I did originally think that players were now supposed to videotape the the game board/s right after the record score was acheived, buy opening up the game and zooming in on the hardware.(But perhaps I am mistaken).
Initially, I didn't realize what a big deal this score had become. Nevertheless, I don't think that publicly reversing the record is necessary, becuase it seems that all that would need to be done is to create a category for DDK-Donkey Kong.
And perhaps get a signed and notarized affidavit from the hacker that the roms are and behave exactly as the original as far as game-play is concerned. :-)
Anyway, I'm not saying that I like this idea, but T.G. has already set a precedent for tracking scores acheived on hardware that isn't the original(or doesn't have the exact duplicate parts as the original). ie: Ms.Pac-man Turbo.
Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.
Gregory S. Erway
Saturday, July 26, 2003 - 08:00 pm
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Well written reply Walter. I'm glad you keep track of things going on over here as well as the regular TG forums. I agree completly with what you said. It seems more and more "Multi" type boards are coming out and it is near impossible to know everything about each possible one much less even know which exist without the help of all the gamers. There is a vast knowledge base out there and all we have to due is say something and TG will handle the matter appropriatly as soon as enough information is gathered for the situation.
Either way the score Steve put up is incredible. Whether it ends up in a new DDK category or remains where it is, he's got my respect.
Walter Day
Saturday, July 26, 2003 - 10:13 pm
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You are right, Darren, Steve's accomplishment would be transferred to a new category for the DDK. His hold on the traditional DK record would be relinquished, however.
As for further embellishments on the required specs for videotape, I think we are far from the end of this puzzling problem. And, at some point, it may eventually demand game-by-game considerations.
Thank you,
Walter Day
Tommi
Sunday, July 27, 2003 - 09:16 pm
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Imho if gameplay is same, no harm done. Who knows what roms were used at some 20y old TG record anyway. If you make different categories for dk and "ddk", which is next step...different categories for all different "clonesets".
But if gameplay differs, then I think it's a matter of how much difference is there, and which way. Who knows which romset previous record was played with?
Mark Longridge
Sunday, July 27, 2003 - 09:54 pm
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" then the player has a few extra microseconds to move the controls before the code checks them "
A few extra MICROseconds, as in millionths of a
second?
Well, I'm as much a purist as anyone, but I don't
see how a few extra microseconds is going to help
any player. I bet Steve wasn't switching between
games during his record.
I agree that original hardware should be used,
but if I played a multi-game Williams machine and
it "felt" right, I'd probably say let the
record set on such a machine stand. Of course for
any serious gaming effort why beg trouble? May
as well do it on the original hardware, if
possible.
What? You said you played Joust with a blue
stick instead of the original yellow??
DISQUALIFIED!
;-)
mspaeth
Monday, July 28, 2003 - 01:51 pm
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"Guest" is a moron...
I'm not dissing the 'experts', I'm just saying that a video tape is not definitive proof that a score was attained legitimately....
Simple case and point... breakout...
With about 5 minutes of work, I could modify a breakout boardset to eliminate the control pot as an input, and instead tie the output of the ball location circuit to the pot output... the paddle would track the ball perfectly, so I'd never lose the ball, and get a 'perfect' score on 1 ball.
With a video tape of the screen, how can anyone tell I modified the board like that?
Think the paddle movement is too smooth? That's OK, I can add a little more circuitry some randomness to it, and just make sure it's in the right spot when it needs to be...
How about the records for the B&W driving games like wheels, wheels 2, sprint 2, lemans, etc? The game time is determined by the R-C time constant of a pot on the PCB... maybe one day the game's hotter inside, so the resistance goes up and the actual game time changes, even on the same machine... Does the temperature invalidate a score?
My point is, all this anal verifcation of scores by videotape (gee, we can't trust funspot to have games set on TGTS and not lie to gain all the plublicity associated with new scores now?!) seems pretty ridiculous when it's so easy to circumvent.
In the case of donkey kong, after watching Billy Mitchell play, apparently one large determining factor of performance is how often kong throws erratic barrels (IIRC, he though the machine at funspot did this too frequently, too often). How can videotape prove that a seemingly random (but essentially deterministic) component of the game like erratic barrels hasn't been modified to make game play easier?
I just think everyone's taking game scores way too seriously
Robert T Mruczek
Monday, July 28, 2003 - 08:32 pm
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Mark:
No one doubts your capabilities of programming a game to effectively and convincingly play itself. Convincing "bot" programs can be made for almost every game situation, if not all.
The spirit of what game verification is all about is not about who can pull the wool over the verifier's eyes...it has been and always will be about good-natured competetiveness, plain and simple.
People originally played games for their own amusement. Eventually, and you all know the history, people found great personal saitsfaction in seeing how well their best efforts compared to others in the field of gaming. Someone noticed that, and devoted some time to pursuing this. Plain and simple.
Mark, I don't think it's fair to say that every gamer "takes things too seriously". Some do, some don't, and some simply enjoy being part of it or reading about it. Personal choices, that's all.
As for the "due diligence" process for the main issue at hand, here's what I can tell you for now...
1st - The game designer has been contacted, and his opinions have been received and are on record with Twin Galaxies. Many technical specfications will soon be available for evaluation.
2nd - The videotape has been watched by two experts now. All I can say is that there are no two better people suited to watching the performance than the two selected. I noticed you being very dismissive of the term "expert", even going so far as to misquote me and categorize him as a "bona-fide" expert. That subtlety aside, I doubt you will challenge this expert's findings.
On a personal note, within this thread, I have seen calls for checking the timing of a tape, checking for a pirated or well-crafted Romset, having "extra microseconds" of time, and even requesting a signed affadavit by a designer, while simultaneously downplaying a request to capture settings on videotape for purposes of basic due diligence.
Tell me...who is now taking gaming a little too seriously here ?
I have to publicly state the following for the record. At the time that the tape was watched, and the story was written, I did not know that a "Double Donkey Kong" conversion kit even existed. My colleague Ron Corcoran was unaware of it. Walter Day was unaware if it.
Reasonable common sense was exercised during the verification process. I had personally contacted the gamer at the time of the verification. No deception was evident. If you believe that this was not serious enough of an effort, then why end your last post that gamers are taking high scores way to seriously ? That's hypocritical.
A good-faith service and recap was the result of the score verification. Had Darren not known that a "DDK" unit was in useage, I seriously doubt anyone else would have noticed, especially since I know for a fact that slightly higher has already been unofficially accomplished, tape receipt pending.
I respect Walter too much and will not say any more negative than I have already stated above. However, I have to consider why, for the recent eleven world record arcade stories that TG posted, that more less-than-positive comments are resulting from this DDK issue than all the positive comments for all the other score reports combined.
Robert
Okami
Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 08:00 am
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It's because you have all these player-haters, who've got nothing better to do than to stamp their feet and look for any excuse to belittle the accomplishment. Like I said before, I seriously doubt any of these jerks actually believe Steve cheated. They KNOW they earned it, but as long as they can convince themselves their point is worthwhile, they will keep on player-hating.
As far as I concerned Robert, you needn't give these stooges another minute of your time. No matter what you do, no matter how much of your free time you put into dealing with their crap, they will NEVER let up until you DQ Steve. That's all they want and for the simple reason of player-hating. Oh sure, they can talk about such noble causes as "timing issues", but deep down its all about disrespect. It's sad really. I expected better of the older players, but they are showing themselves to royally suck as human beings.
Guest
Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 10:13 am
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Hey Mark -
Kiss my rear jerko.
Take your moron comment and ram it.
D_Harris
Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 02:05 pm
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I'm going to attempt to bring this thread back to a level of maturity.
Walter has always asked for help and opinions from the players in the areas of score verification and gameplay rules. He never shut the door on player input.
And since it is always in Twin Galaxies best interest to be consistent and have workable standards, many issues have to be addressed. This is always a work in progress and Walter has asked for help from all of us.
Greg, Tommy, Mark L. and I have already stated our respect for Steve's score, even if it was found to be accomplished on a DDK game, and no one has expressed any problem with a separate DDK category.
Mark S. and I are not the best of friends, but what he said was fact, and his points were on target. The only disagreement I have is that I believe that differences can be determined simply by watching a tape of a DK game versus and DDK-DK game. But only because of what Greg mentioned as far as audio differences between the two.
Rick's concern about having to retract a major score like Donkey Kong is shared by the rest of us. And it is a legitimate issue.
And Mike's note of how this would affect scores gotten on the various Multi-games is also very important because many of us have these kits.(And the last thing we need are a bunch of complaints in the future about record scores achieved on unoriginal hardware).
Accepting DDK-DK as a legitimate DK score would open the floodgates.(ie: My friend Abdner would now only have to come over to my house to break the Robotron record on my Multi-Williams game. Then there would be no way to convince everyone that the gameplay was exactly like it would be on the original game).
Nevertheless, no one here is attacking Twin Galaxies, or arbitrarily targeting Steve's score. Most in this thread have supported T.G. long before certain others knew of it's existance. We are attempting to resolve an important issue, so it'll serve as a example, and help lay down guidelines for the future when this issue will eventually come up again.
BTW, no one was "downplaying a request to capture settings on videotape for purposes of basic due diligence." But I thought that I heard(or read) somewhere that that was going to be a rule, at least for certain games.
And I don't know what is meant by the "less-than-positive comments" resulting from this DDK issue, but no one has come across any verification problems with any of the other recent records that I am aware of.(Again, this is just an important issue that needs to be addressed in an effort to keep the playing field level).
Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York
Robert T Mruczek
Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 04:41 pm
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Hello Darren:
Points well taken. Here's what I know thus far...full details to come.
TECHNICAL - Brien King, one of my fellow TG Board of Director members, was a beta-tester on the DDK project. He has been in contact with a gentlemen named Scott Brasington, whom you might already be familiar with, regarding the technical aspects of the DDK project.
I want to first make absolutely sure that I am clear with Brien as to what I can/cannot quote from the information received thus far before I post anything, but so far I do have record of his professional opinion on the unit.
VERIFICATION - You probably guessed who is disceminating the tape right now...the only person capable of catching any peculiarity, and the only person who could not possibly benefit from watching the tape. That being said, when I have both aspects of the due diligence performed, we will release all information and the final decision on how things will be handled.
Rather than jump the gun and indicate which ways things are leaning, all I'll ask is to please be patient as the 2-part investigation takes place. Thansk.
Robert
Robert T Mruczek
Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 05:17 pm
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Ach...wrong word...meant "dissecting", not "disceminating" !!
Anyway, word on the full review to come, then will inform all. Thanks.
Robert
Rick
Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 06:29 pm
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Darren,
You are correct. Having to retract a score is not a good thing and causes skepticism when future scores are announced as people will question it as a genuine "record" or another retraction waiting to happen.
I have nothing against Twin Galaxies and I am not a player-hater as Okami calls them. Facts are facts. The entire thing boils down to this... Is DDK the same game as Donkey Kong? It's quite simple. It would have been nice if Steve, the player, had mentioned beforehand he did not have an original DK machine.
Surely no one here wishes to have the score disqualified, they only want to know if this is a true DK record or a new DDK record and nothing more. Some people seem to be reading more into this than there is.
Barry
Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 07:58 pm
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Whoa, what happened here? I was reading some cool messages on fantasy game collections and world records and then WHAM, this comes up. Why does this not surprise me.
Richard M.
Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 10:46 pm
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Were it not for Mark's unwise comment about "Guest" being a moron, and for Guest's very immature reaction to this, it appears that this thread would have been kept at a reasonably mature level.
Before posting something very negative, may I suggest that you look at what you are writing and ask yourself, "Is this posting really necessary?"
I'd like to hear of Steve Wiebe playing an actual Donkey Kong machine. If, as others have said on this thread, there is little or no differences between the DDK machine and the original DK, then he should be able to break 900K on the original and silence all critics. :-)
-End of thread-
