How is an 8 way joystick really an advantage?

[danman123456]

We don't see sprinters debating that so and so had a faster time because his shoes were better do we?

You don't see that because there are already strict rules about allowed footwear. See USATF rule 143, section 3: http://www.usatf.org/about/rules/2007/2007USATFRules_Article4.pdf

My point is they cant all afford the SAME brand can they or they might be affiliated with someone else saying the nike brand is faster then the adidas they are wearing. I'm just saying anyone can do this if they desire so why care other then that is how the game was originally made? Wait that replacement monitor is not an ORIGINAL Donkey Kong Monitor, Wait that wood panel on the control panel is not original 1981 pine from the mamosa tree... See what I'm saying you can take this out to a ridiculous degree in the name of trying to shave off anything people may or may not do. Someone could likely make it LOOK like a 4 way but play like an 8 way if they were so inclined. I still think the 8 way would cause more deaths then it would help avoid because you would accidentally go up or down a ladder when you didn't want to. I'm fine with saying it has to be a 4-way but I just think talking about maybe the 2000 - 6000 points you could get over the entire game is kinda funny

[marinomitch13]

...I just think talking about maybe the 2000 - 6000 points you could get over the entire game is kinda funny

But talking about saving 1 death here or there isn't funny. I think the added advantage of survivability might be the more crucial of the advantages, given that most people aren't above 1.15m pace -where 2-6k would be a significant amount of points.

[hchien]

I just think talking about maybe the 2000 - 6000 points you could get over the entire game is kinda funny

We're looking at this from different perspectives.  For you 2-6K points is not even passing an extra board.  But for me 2-6K points means I have to do the superjump and grab the top right prize on elevators (actually I think that's worth a little more than 2-6K) or put myself in danger of a fireball several more times.

Ask Vincent if he thinks 2-6K points is funny.  Actually he'd probably say yes.

My point is DK scores past about 900-950K are not linear.  A 1M game is a lot more than 110% of a 900K killscreen.  And holds even more so for a 1.1M over a 1M and yet even more for a 1.2M over a 1.1M.

[danman123456]

I just think talking about maybe the 2000 - 6000 points you could get over the entire game is kinda funny

We're looking at this from different perspectives.  For you 2-6K points is not even passing an extra board.  But for me 2-6K points means I have to do the superjump and grab the top right prize on elevators (actually I think that's worth a little more than 2-6K) or put myself in danger of a fireball several more times.

Ask Vincent if he thinks 2-6K points is funny.  Actually he'd probably say yes.

My point is DK scores past about 900-950K are not linear.  A 1M game is a lot more than 110% of a 900K killscreen.  And holds even more so for a 1.1M over a 1M and yet even more for a 1.2M over a 1.1M.

Yeah i just think its debateable if you really would have a super advantage or not because moving diag also means you climb up and down when you may not want to so would you truly avoid deaths or have to be even more cautious? It probably is an an advantage but its only 0.005% of an advantage so just let you play with an 8-way then and push it farther if you think you could. Anyone would be able to have an 8-way or 4-way in as a controller then so the playing field is level right? The reason against it is strictly to say "You have to play the game as it was originally intended." which is perfectly fine with me. It's just harder and harder to find one "original" anymore. I've been trying

[corey.chambers]

Dan, if someone mastered the 8-way, it would not lead to deaths at all in this case. Even sliding the joystick along an 8 way restricter could be done with great precision. How arcade controls give inputs is very different then the type of monitor, and the kind of wood used to compose the cabinet. TG already has this criteria of a 4 way joystick configuration with restricter plate. Originally we did not add it to the list, even though it was discussed, because it was not proven to be possible, in fact, it was "known" not to be possible. Now that we know, I actually have no reasons not to specify this on the submission rules. I can see great value of corning on the rivets. I am that kind of player that would if that is how it was designed. And as Dan says, playing the game as it was actually intended.

P.S. An original joystick would not necessarily be required.

[marinomitch13]

Personal testimony as evidence:

I went to the Mall of America today to play some DK at one of the bars/arcade/bowling alley venues, and low and behold, the place had added a multicade to their stock! On it was DK, so I decided to play some (even though I had been intending on playing on their 3-in-1 cab), even though I'd have to use an 8-way, taller, fighter-style joystick. Due to the fact that we've been discussing this topic here, I messed around with cornering off of ladders as well as climbing while steering. I'd have to be honest and say that getting used to the different joystick was actually very easy for me, and that within just one game, the advantage of the 8-way joystick was absolutely apparent! It was like having an all new ability given to Jumpman. It was just as simple as having a small change in ability while climbing/getting off of ladders, but it was definitely a huge advantage (basically in many of the ways that have been mentioned) in terms of general gameplay. For anyone who is both 1) decent at DK, and 2) able to adapt and learn to play with an 8-way, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind now that it is a significant -if not, huge, advantage.

Take my personal testimony here how you will...

[dave88]

The 8 way that Steve Wiebe used was from a Playchoice. It's the standard Nintendo joystick except it has an 8 way restrictor plate with notches for the angles. So it is easy to hit them precisely.

[hchien]

IMO an 8 way joystick is a bigger advantage than any small difference between joystick/keyboard.  Much bigger.

[mikegmi2]

Thanks for the summary on your 8 way trial Mitch...that's exactly how I would have thought it to be.  I don't think it would take long to get used to, and it would for sure add some significant abilities to Jumpman's movements.

An 8 way would give a player an advantage.

[danman123456]

Guess what I was saying is being lost here. EVERYONE has the ability to gain this "advantage" so its not an advantage anymore see? It's kind of like The Incredibles.

Syndrome:
I'll sell my inventions so that *everyone* can have powers. *Everyone* can be super! And when everyone's super...
[chuckles evilly]
Syndrome:
no one will be.

Saying its an advantage isn't an argument if everyone is allowed to have said advantage. The argument is it has to be played as originally intended (Which is most assuredly valid). Will this apply to all 4-Way games that may have an 8-way joystick in them?

[hchien]

Guess what I was saying is being lost here. EVERYONE has the ability to gain this "advantage" so its not an advantage anymore see?

OK I see what you're saying.  I agree with this and would not be strongly opposed to making it "player's choice".  However, this would require most of us to relearn the game.  I do feel this was not the way the game was meant to be played and actually would create a significant divide between MAME and arcade (MAME doesn't allow 8 way without some trickery).

It's like allowing steroids in baseball or fast cursor in Missile Command.  Sure no one has the advantage but it's not the way it's meant to be played.  Bright idea: we need Roy Schildt to settle this!

[mikegmi2]

It's been 4-way from the start...so that's why I don't think anyone would want to make 8-way legal.  It changes the game. You would have to start a new track with 8-way controllers allowed.

Kinda like hammer/no-hammer.  They are separate tracks because the hammer gives you a huge advantage...survival-wise and point-wise.  8-way would do the exact same thing...although on a smaller scale.

[gstrain]

Guess what I was saying is being lost here. EVERYONE has the ability to gain this "advantage" so its not an advantage anymore see?

OK I see what you're saying.  I agree with this and would not be strongly opposed to making it "player's choice".  However, this would require most of us to relearn the game.  I do feel this was not the way the game was meant to be played and actually would create a significant divide between MAME and arcade (MAME doesn't allow 8 way without some trickery).

I sometimes play DK on an 8-way stick at Joystick Gamebar (in fact i played a few games last night).  My experience has been it makes some things easier and some harder, and with my current level of experience with the stick and my current level of DK play, it's probably a bit harder.

With regard to allowing it, I would say that for TG submissions, 8-way shouldn't be allowed.  It does noticably change the game in material ways from the play on original DK cabs.  For Corey's list I'd think it could be allowed since the list isn't supposed to be as formal a list with the same level of verification required.

-George

[Fast Eddie]

its interesting because this will come into play when the arcade WR starts getting pushed to the limit, id definitely be curious how much extra points it would be worth to someone who got really serious about playing with an 8 way...

but i dont think the scoreboard here should be mixed...

 

[corey.chambers]

The DK HSL has a lot of the same verification elements as TG. Most people seem to agree that we should place a new rule on the list for all new submissions and this is what I will be writing up. Some may disagree with this decision but again, I think I have heard enough support for its addition.