Author Topic: How is an 8 way joystick really an advantage?  (Read 17831 times)

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Online homerwannabee

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How is an 8 way joystick really an advantage?
« on: October 17, 2013, 05:53:47 am »
People as of late are saying that the 8 way joystick is an advantage.  I don't see a real advantage for doing so.  Yeah, you can climb, and possibly steer a barrel away from before getting hit, but there is a 1 in 5 shot it does not steer.  Why would anyone take a chance like that in the first place?  In the end I think the 8 way is much to do about nothing.  It may allow you to do something you can't do with the 4 way, but what it allows you to do doesn't really improve anything in regards to the game in my opinion.
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hchien

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Re: How is an 8 way joystick really an advantage?
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2013, 06:20:02 am »
How many times have you gotten stuck exiting a ladder and subsequently got hit by a pie, fireball, or barrel?

How many times have you steered a barrel (or wanted to steer a barrel) while on a ladder but that split second meant you weren't going to make it up the ladder in time to beat the incoming barrel?  (Note the barrel you are steering isn't necessarily the incoming barrel)

The advantage becomes more and more obvious the better you get and the more point pressing you do.  I'm going to pull a Riley here, but in DK3 if Stanley could change platforms while running, do you think there'd be an advantage?

Offline LMDAVE

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Re: How is an 8 way joystick really an advantage?
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2013, 06:22:24 am »
I never tried one, but from a speed run/efficiency point of view, I guess if you hold it diagonally as you're approaching a ladder you'll always get the most efficient "corner cutting" with getting on and off ladders, which can prevent getting stuck in ladders etc. not sure if it works like that or not. But that is somewhat of an advantage there.

EDIT: simultaneous post, may have just said the same thing as hank was getting at
« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 06:24:28 am by LMDAVE »
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Offline mikegmi2

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Re: How is an 8 way joystick really an advantage?
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2013, 06:28:10 am »
Well your efficiency can go up if you are able to steer barrels whilst climbing up or down ladders.  If nothing else, it can improve your score due to less time wasted...less points lost off the bonus timer.

There are also those that believe pushing right or left on the control stick will mess with the fireballs/firefoxes...and on rivets if you can keep climbing while "pushing" firefoxes away from you, this is also an advantage.

In the end I would tend to agree with you though, it won't make a huge difference...but it would make a somewhat of a difference.
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Fast Eddie

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Re: How is an 8 way joystick really an advantage?
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2013, 06:36:20 am »
you can corner off ladders but not onto them Dave...

i cant imagine someone used to a 4 way changing over in order to get an advantage, but i think if you basically learned from scratch on an 8 way you would have a small advantage...

i havnt tried it on L4+ but id guess dealing with the springs might be a problem, as its easy to accidently hit a diagonal and run past the ladder...

 8)

« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 06:41:20 am by Fast Eddie »

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Re: How is an 8 way joystick really an advantage?
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2013, 06:52:55 am »
How many times have you gotten stuck exiting a ladder and subsequently got hit by a pie, fireball, or barrel?

How many times have you steered a barrel (or wanted to steer a barrel) while on a ladder but that split second meant you weren't going to make it up the ladder in time to beat the incoming barrel?  (Note the barrel you are steering isn't necessarily the incoming barrel)

The advantage becomes more and more obvious the better you get and the more point pressing you do.  I'm going to pull a Riley here, but in DK3 if Stanley could change platforms while running, do you think there'd be an advantage?
Never have I played a game of DK3, and wished that Stanley could run while switching platforms.   Now wanting Stanley to be able to jump horizontally is another story.  Yeah, I have been stuck on ladders, but I just chalk it off to me being stupid, and going too early.


Hmm, but I could see how using the 8 way would stop being stuck on the ladders.  That's something I didn't contemplate.  Still that's something happens infrequently.  Like what, 1 in 10 games perhaps?   So yeah, there is an advantage.  Now the question becomes is the advantage discernible enough to markedly improve gameplay?  In the end I still don't think a person's high score game is going to be improved that much, but I can see an argument where what if the person has their great game coinciding with the 1 in 10 games that they usually die from a 4 way joystick?

I can understand that philosophy, but if you eliminate 8 ways, than the next logical step is to eliminate MAME games from the scoreboard entirely.  I don't think that's fair given that an 8 way is not that great of an advantage.
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Offline stella_blue

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Re: How is an 8 way joystick really an advantage?
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2013, 06:59:07 am »
People as of late are saying that the 8 way joystick is an advantage.  I don't see a real advantage for doing so.  Yeah, you can climb, and possibly steer a barrel away from before getting hit, but there is a 1 in 5 shot it does not steer.  Why would anyone take a chance like that in the first place?  In the end I think the 8 way is much to do about nothing.  It may allow you to do something you can't do with the 4 way, but what it allows you to do doesn't really improve anything in regards to the game in my opinion.

It's possible to steer barrels while on a ladder, whether playing on MAME or arcade (4-way or 8-way).  The major difference is that, with an 8-way, you can steer barrels while continuing to climb.  With MAME (unmodified version) or a 4-way, if you attempt to steer a barrel (pressing left/right) while climbing a ladder, Jumpman will come to a complete stop.  Therein lies one advantage.  If you can steer and climb simultaneously, it saves time.  It might be only a fraction of a second, or it could be much more (if you have to retreat down the ladder to avoid other oncoming barrels).  You arrive at the top of the ladder more quickly, begin grouping on the 5th girder earlier, grab the top hammer sooner, finish the stage with a larger bonus timer value, etc.  Over the course of a full game, just 200 extra points per barrel board quickly add up to more than 10k.

George, you seem to be suggesting (and correct me if I'm wrong) that if the barrel doesn't steer, death is almost a certainty.  Why?  Consider a situation where you're climbing the center ladder from the 3rd to the 4th girder.  A barrel is above you on the 5th girder, rolling left.  If an attempt to steer that barrel down the broken ladder fails, does that barrel really pose any immediate threat?

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Fast Eddie

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Re: How is an 8 way joystick really an advantage?
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2013, 07:02:00 am »
thats a good point about steering Hank, you can use it to group/steer barrels other that the one that is oncomming which is handy...

 8)

Offline danman123456

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Re: How is an 8 way joystick really an advantage?
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2013, 07:28:38 am »
Well you could just say however you want to control the game is up to you :) - Put an 8-way in or a 4-way or use keyboard interface. EVERYONE has the ability to do this right so does it really matter? I mean you can get down to this n'th degree of separation on any video game and find something that could possible discern an advantage. Considering the mental adjustments needed and not to mention how many deaths would be CAUSED by having an 8-way vs 4-way I just don't see it making that much of a difference. We don't see sprinters debating that so and so had a faster time because his shoes were better do we? :D
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hchien

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Re: How is an 8 way joystick really an advantage?
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2013, 08:09:19 am »
Dave, I think you missed this topic:

https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=576

Fast Eddie and I did some experiments on 8-way/arcade.

I thought of another advantage.  You could retreat on elevators (when you are partially up the ladder) much faster and smoother.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2013, 09:25:32 am by hchien »

Offline qnz

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Re: How is an 8 way joystick really an advantage?
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2013, 08:27:16 am »
We don't see sprinters debating that so and so had a faster time because his shoes were better do we? :D
You don't see that because there are already strict rules about allowed footwear. See USATF rule 143, section 3: http://www.usatf.org/about/rules/2007/2007USATFRules_Article4.pdf
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Re: How is an 8 way joystick really an advantage?
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2013, 08:55:50 am »
Because of the reasons stated, and the growing number list of advantages, which has led me to make the proposal. I had mame in mind when I made the proposal and we have discussed that there maybe a way for us to detect if a modified form of the rom was used during simple playback. Besides, there is no logic exclusion of mame here. Quite simply, the HSL uses the platform section to divide how the game was played. Making any adjustment to the rules concerning an Arcade submission will not effect mame at all. In fact, I would add another rule to specify that the dkong rom is not to be modified and explain that it would invalidate the score. As of now, and I plan to continue to allow, player choice on input in mame, meaning they can use a keyboard, joystick, etc. If/When I choose to add the new rule, I will explain our discussions, list possible advantages, link these threads, etc. It will be comprehensive. As always, all your input is considered, and always appreciated.

hchien

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Re: How is an 8 way joystick really an advantage?
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2013, 09:51:02 am »
Well you could just say however you want to control the game is up to you :)

As long as the rules are uniformly applied, I really don't care-- player's choice or 4-way only.  However, given that DK arcade was intended to be 4-way, I'd say that makes the most sense.

I do agree, in the short term, if I switched to 8-way, I'd be screwing myself.  But I bet after a year or so of practicing it, I'd be kicking butt.

Offline LMDAVE

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Re: How is an 8 way joystick really an advantage?
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2013, 10:13:21 am »
I've lost a lot of good games recently due to getting stuck on a ladder. It is an important control not to let happen and can mean the difference between life or death if you're trying to beat a barrel or fireball.

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Offline marinomitch13

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Re: How is an 8 way joystick really an advantage?
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2013, 01:30:49 pm »
I posted this in the 'Submissions Rules' thread before I saw this discussion here. Corey had mentioned using the 8-way as an advantage while climbing the middle ladder and trying to steer a barrel on the 5th girder down the broken ladder on the right between the 4th and 5th girders:

Quote
In the example of using it while on the very middle ladder on the barrel screen (the example Corey gave above), you may actually gain just enough of an advantage to actually significantly decrease the difficulty of then going from the 4th to the 5th girder (which I think most agree is the hardest part of the 'transition'). The extra time saved could translate into enough distance to be able to 'beat' barrels to the top of the long ladder under Kong that you might not have been able to do otherwise. It may also give you enough time to get to the safe spot between the ladders a lot sooner than usual, by not setting you up in a situation(which is fairly common) where if you were to immediately run left after reaching the top of the (middle) ladder, you would coincidentally steer a barrel down Kong's ladder too (effectively causing you to have to delay). This sort of potential advantage I'd actually see as quite serious.
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