Any Questions About the Kong Off 3?

[Ohrami]

I see absolutely no reason not to accept such a score. What's the issue?

Well, let's say Steve Weeberton scores 1,020,000 tomorrow, sends in the tape, gets his score verified, and he is sitting in 12th place.

Flash forward to the day of the KO cutoff, Oct 25th.

Billy Billerton is announced as having scored 1,020,100 by a TG referee, knocking Steve Weeberton out of the top 12 on the last day of the cutoff, ruining his chances of playing on a dedicated machine at the KO3.

Come to find out, Billy Billerton's tape was recorded 5 months before, in May of 2013...and he purposely held it until the last minute so he could submit it, knock Steve Weeberton out, and not give anyone else a chance to beat his score due to the cutoff deadline.

Fair, not fair?

It's fair. In my opinion, Steve Weeberton should have anticipated a score ahead of his having been verified any time after he set his score, even if it's the day before the tournament. If he was good enough, he should have scored high enough to be several places up in case something like that happened.

[giv]

And how would a 3D-printed arcade cab be any different from a MAME cab? Neither would employ original hardware.

An mame cab has an emulator in it. A 3d printed arcade cab will be a perfect replication. There is a big difference between emulation and replication.

No rocks and sticks in dk death match. Everyone gets a hammer and a pair of squeaky jumping shoes, and that's it.

[Ohrami]

There is a big difference between emulation and replication.

And what is that big difference? It's the exact same ROM playing at the exact same speed. I bet you wouldn't even be able to tell the difference between a MAME machine which was set to the right settings and using a Sanyo EZ20 replica (if such a thing would ever even exist) and an actual cabinet using original hardware.

Both replication and emulation are a type of imitation. There's really no major differences aside from the fact that MAME could potentially allow for a different monitor and control scheme.

[giv]

Emulation is not perfect. Replication is.

[Ohrami]

Emulation is not perfect. Replication is.

As far as I know, the Donkey Kong MAME emulation is one of the few emulations which is perfect. However, if it is as you say it is: What flaws does the Donkey Kong MAME emulation have? What behavior does the MAME ROM have which isn't present in the arcade ROM? Further, what makes you think that a replication is going to be perfect? If people make replications, they're going to be doing exactly what the MAME emulator does: Trying to get as close as is possible. I think it's possible for both to get all the way there, and I think MAME has already done it.

[xelnia]

Emulation is not perfect. Replication is.

I feel like every movie I've ever seen that involves clones ends poorly. 

[giv]

" It really doesn't make sense to have to play arcade to "prove yourself" "

And yet people do it. Sometimes you do things for other reasons besides sensible ones. You are forgetting the social pressure factor I mentioned before.

As for the "yes no" list, I didn't do a headcount, but just briefly skimming by it, it looks like most don't have a strong opinion or you don't know their opinion for sure. That doesn't make it a majority of yes's by any means. And there are many others I would consider a part of the DK community that aren't on that list: Arcade champions on other games that you will see at the kong off, easily as many if not twice as many as are on your list; People who are part of the community but like to stay behind the scenes; spectators. This is the larger DK community, and I think I am on safe ground to say they don't agree with you, in a general consensus sense. Does that help you understand what I meant when I said the wider community doesn't agree with the core mame advocates?

I think Steve made the best point about the sandbagging issue. It may be technically fair, but no one will have a beer with you at the kong off and you will get dirty looks all weekend. Maybe you have no social graces and don't care about that, though. Also if Steve Weeberton in this scenario is the size of a wookie with fists the size of mike Vacca's and a temper like Roy Shildt, billy billerton may get a punch in the face for good measure.

See there is a similar thread running through all of these subjects I've just addressed. The social issue. I think some of you keep forgetting to factor the social issue into the equation. And not the online social community, real face to face interaction. It is so important, and you guys have a big  blind spot to it.

[giv]

The main flaw in emulation is it is just a rom. It doesn't have the whole arcade cabinet surrounding it. You can even build a cabinet around a computer running emulation, but it is still just a computer running an emulator. Like I said before, there is more to arcade gaming than a rom and a score. There will always be people who don't take it as seriously because it isn't the real thing.


On a molecular level, the replication of 500 years from now will be exact.

[Ohrami]

"It really doesn't make sense to have to play arcade to 'prove yourself'"

And yet people do it.

Can you name one?

As for the "yes no" list, I didn't do a headcount, but just briefly skimming by it, it looks like most don't have a strong opinion or you don't know their opinion for sure. That doesn't make it a majority of yes's by any means.

Nor does it mean the majority agrees with you.

And there are many others I would consider a part of the DK community that aren't on that list: Arcade champions on other games that you will see at the kong off, easily as many if not twice as many as are on your list; People who are part of the community but like to stay behind the scenes; spectators. This is the larger DK community, and I think I am on safe ground to say they don't agree with you, in a general consensus sense. Does that help you understand what I meant when I said the wider community doesn't agree with the core mame advocates?

For what reason do you think most of these people disagree with us? Also, why do you consider them part of the Donkey Kong community? People who don't even talk on the forums or do anything except occasionally watch some Donkey Kong video they saw on YouTube or go to the Kong Off because it's a cool classic game event don't really count as people involved with the community. For the most part, they don't even know what the community is.

The main flaw in emulation is it is just a rom. It doesn't have the whole arcade cabinet surrounding it. You can even build a cabinet around a computer running emulation, but it is still just a computer running an emulator. Like I said before, there is more to arcade gaming than a rom and a score. There will always be people who don't take it as seriously because it isn't the real thing.


On a molecular level, the replication of 500 years from now will be exact.

An original Donkey Kong is just a computer running a game. What's your point about that? As for the "molecular level" claim: On the molecular level, not even every original Donkey Kong board is even close to exactly the same. Like I asked: What does it matter if it's an emulation? Like I said, unless you peered into the back, you could play on a MAME machine for hours without even realizing it, so long as the monitor is the same and the settings are correct. Is the Kong Off a tournament or an arcade history appreciation event? If it's the latter, why make it out to the public like it is a tournament?

Ultimately, the point is moot; no one is suggesting that MAME machines be set up for the Kong Off.

[ChrisP]

This replicator thing is taking the thread into "moods" territory...

[giv]

Of course I can name one. Every one of the top mame players has played on arcade to prove themselves to the community.

kyou, bring up the mame vs arcade issue, and ask me your questions again when we meet in person at the Kong Off 3, surrounded by what I think is the wider DK community. You may feel different about it when you are there. Hopefully you will be allowed in. Did we ever find out an answer about letting underage players in?

Emulation may seem the same, but the fact is it isn't. That is my point and it is inescapable. Replication is the future. It will not only be virtually the same, like emulation, it will truly be impossible to tell the difference.

Replications with moods? come on now, chris, that's just silly.

[Ohrami]

Of course I can name one. Every one of the top mame players has played on arcade to prove themselves to the community.

Is that the reason why all of the top MAME players played on arcade? As far as I know, the usual reasons for this are because they either have to in order to qualify for Kong Off III, want to practice for the Kong Off, prefer the arcade hardware, or want a score which will get more public notoriety.

kyou, bring up the mame vs arcade issue, and ask me your questions again when we meet in person at the Kong Off 3, surrounded by what I think is the wider DK community. You may feel different about it when you are there. Hopefully you will be allowed in. Did we ever find out an answer about letting underage players in?

Yes. Underage people are allowed.

Emulation may seem the same, but the fact is it isn't. That is my point and it is inescapable. Replication is the future. It will not only be virtually the same, like emulation, it will truly be impossible to tell the difference.

It is currently possible to make a MAME machine indistinguishable from an original Donkey Kong cabinet. The fact is that neither emulation or replication are exactly the same as an original Donkey Kong board. Not even every original Donkey Kong board is the same at the point of sameness which you believe is required to call something "same" (that is, same on the molecular level). The fact is that whether or not a MAME machine looks the same in the back, it behaves the same as an original Donkey Kong ROM. For tournament score submission purposes, why does it matter? Do you think that a MAME machine player will be at all worse than a replication or original cabinet player? I'd go as far as saying they would be the exact same on either other platform. Why? Because there aren't any perceivable differences; that is, ones which you can see without checking the inside of the cabinet.

[up2ng]

I hope this thread steers itself back to being somewhat informative about the event and a bit less about bickering.  From what I understand so far, MAME players are invited to compete, but just not with a dedicated machine -- the Wildcard Division has been greatly expanded this time around with a whole bunch of machines so hopefully play time for those players will be less of an issue now.

If the tournament organizers stand by this decision -- perhaps we should discuss some other ideas.  I'm still not clear on exactly how the Wildcard format will work this year so maybe this is already happening -- but I think a cool idea would be (assuming Wildcard players can afford and are able to extend their trip) to have any Wildcard players who are around on, say, Wednesday and Thursday compete against each other, using all 20-something available machines, for the chance at using, say, an additional 4 dedicated machines for the main tournament over the weekend, boosting the dedicated machine total to 16 which "could" be filled by MAME players if they do well in this pre-tournament (although we wouldn't want to take 4 machines away from the Wildcard players -- it would be nice if MORE machines could be squeezed in to do something like this, which may or may not be logistically feasible).

Also, although it's certainly NOT official, it seems pretty clear that exceptions WOULD be made if something extraordinary happens on the MAME side.  For all players involved, it would just be nice if the tournament organizers would spell out this unwritten criteria.  For example, I'm assuming that if someone beats the existing arcade WR score of 1,138,600 in MAME that person is absolutely getting a dedicated machine.  Too high?  Well, what about if someone were to beat the KO2 first place score of 1,107,600?  (or was it slightly less?)  To me, that might be the minimum logical point at which an exception should "OBVIOUSLY" be made for a MAME player.  Below this it becomes pretty subjective and I'm sure the tournament organizers are wary of a situation where a half dozen MAME scores roll in at the last minute that are in that range near Billy and Steve's arcade scores and then what do you do?

I've said a couple of times that in my own personal experience, transitioning from MAME to an arcade cabinet did NOT happen over night.  It took me probably about 10 different play sessions before I was comfortable enough with the controls to feel like I could be competitive at a live event.  If a MAME players shows up and literally has never played on a cabinet, there IS a real possibility that this player could be given a dedicated cabinet for the event and that player never scores higher than 250k, which would essentially screw the bubble boy who would have at least been competitive.  Some MAME players have not had that much of an issue with the transition, but I know I did and others did also.  So, I don't think this whole issue is that cut and dry.  BUT, it would be nice if everyone involved would work towards SOLUTIONS instead of being uninclusive and just disillusioning people away from the contest and the community.

[danman123456]

I don't have a big blind spot to it George. The social aspect is great and people here online also do make it to some of these events. What I don't understand is why is it more "social" to record a score on the cabinet sitting in your house versus the "mame" cabinet sitting in your house? That is really the cause for the "why does that matter" question here.

ALL of the mame players (well not one) have arcade scores now so the logic of excluding them is flawed by the same argument used to include them George

The only point of my yes / no list is as you see now almost EVERYONE here supports the mame scores being included. Still even if its 50/50 at this point (Which my completely unscientific poll shows its more likely the 3/4 I originally stated) I just cannot wrap my head around why someone cares either way to be completely honest in regards to how we get the competition lineup at the KO3? Isn't the competition what it is about that that is where the "Social" aspect is to be found?

I did read something that if someone puts up a 1.1 million score then Richie will absolutely consider that as a qualifier for a machine so that kind of has been covered Dean if it is the case and I think it is a perfect option for the Mame community. "Fine all you mame players. Want a dedicate machine you need to get 1.1 million'. It's a goal that is achievable and gives some credit to those in the MAME community and for those who just don't have an option of getting to play on a cabinet.

I totally get that Richie / Jourdan have worked really hard to have a lot more WC machines and really want to make this event fun for all and yes even "fair" to the WC division. That is awesome and I really am not trying to come across as a debbie-downer at all. I just tend to get overly engaged sometimes and I do not mean any disrespect to anyone so hopefully no one takes anything I say that way.

Also Dean there is an event on Friday to "pre-qualify" for the WC machines and even the WCR are taking scores into consideration so that is AWESOME and does give some more "Street" cred to those mamers' . I hope the dedicated machines will all be available for the Friday session if needed as I may have to play Friday if I want to have any chance at all of competing. I'll probably come just to hang out regardless but I would at least like to try.

[giv]

Qualifying for the kong off and gaining public notoriety is just another way of saying proving yourself to the community.

The emulator may behave the same, but it is not the same when you open it up. An arcade cabinet has different parts than a computer. You keep ignoring what I am saying: donkey kong is more than a rom and a score. You have a different opinion about it, I understand. I think you are wrong. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. Let's stop fighting now, we're starting to annoy Dean. I don't want any trouble from Dean. He can shoot lasers from his brain like a brain from Robotron. I don't want to be responsible for the carnage. Then I'll have to clean up the mess.

Replication at present is not advanced, but in the distant future it will be exact. Not just exact behavior but exactly the same when you look under the hood.

I'm glad you will be allowed in, kyou. We'll continue our mame vs arcade debate at the Kong Off 3. Since it can't be an informal discussion over a beer because of your age, maybe we should make it fun by having a side event- a debate off, as it were:)

And Dean I tried to suggest a solution, but no one listened to me.

Donkey Kong death match!