Author Topic: Donkey Kong High Score List General Discussion  (Read 358727 times)

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Offline mikegmi2

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Re: Donkey Kong High Score List
« Reply #105 on: April 25, 2013, 06:55:42 am »
I stream everything now, and record with my own video cam.  I never bothered doing the post recording for the 923k game for the same reasons you didn't on your PB, I know I can do better and was bummed the game ended prematurely.
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Offline LMDAVE

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Re: Donkey Kong High Score List
« Reply #106 on: April 25, 2013, 07:56:52 am »
Keep in mind, the post recording is just a TG requirement, my PB game is accepted here based on the fact that its documented beginning to end on twitch.
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corey.chambers

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Re: Donkey Kong High Score List
« Reply #107 on: April 25, 2013, 08:51:49 am »
I totally believe your score, Mike, and truly believe you can get that well-documented 1M game. I know that you are going to wait until you get that 1M instead of posting your 923K game. If you want, one night if you are not playing please feel free to stream your video of the game. A nice encore of your pb for the folks. :)

It is true, Dave, it would be a lot of work to add ranking at this time. For example, if Vincent gets the Arcade WR then I would need to change all the numbers, lol. I started off that way because I also like the idea of ranking numbers but soon realized how much work that would be. If anyone has any good ideas how I can handle the text in a way that would make that easier then please let me know. There is actually a lot of text involved to have the list as neat as it is. Thanks to Jeff for such an awesome job. As soon as I can find some convenient way to add rank numbers I will be right on that. :)

Offline mikegmi2

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Re: Donkey Kong High Score List
« Reply #108 on: April 25, 2013, 09:38:34 am »
Yea maybe ill upload the whole video one day.

Playing 'what if' for a minute though, in this day of modern technology, what does any pre-recorded video really prove?

How hard would it be to bypass the dip switch so that you could control it from the front of the machine and switch it from 3 man to 5 man settings on the fly?  Between power cycles? Or how simple would it be to edit a video so that it looks like you power cycled your DK machine to prove you did a game on 3 man settings, but really went and manually switched it back to 3 man...and just edited the video?

There are a lot of smart people out there.  If some guy supposedly has the time to play Donkey Kong all the way to the kill screen, using continues...who's to say someone doesn't have the time to play a DK game with a few extra men, then spend 10 minutes editing a video?

You could get into a lot of crazy stuff...

How hard would it be to reprogram the rivet stage so that the firefoxes always let you perform the star pattern safely? (i know very little about programming so excuse my ignorance if some of this stuff would be impossible to do)

How hard would it be to reprogram the hitbox and make it smaller?

How hard would it be to reprogram the fireballs so they had a smaller chance to climb up and down ladders?  This would make the Pie Factory and Barrel stages much easier.  Higher chance for a free pass, and more time to point press/not be rushed up to the top on barrel screens.

None of these "reprogramming" things would ever be able to be caught really...would they?  Not even during the special DK recording rules era did they ever require you to verify your ROM content.

Has anyone with an arcade machine ever taken an EEPROM dump of all of their ROMs and diff'd them with the known US Set 1 ROM data?

How hard would it be to have a brand new player that nobody ever heard about, have a pro DK player stream a game on Twitch for them under their account?

"Congratulations to newcomer Willy Critchel, who just streamed a 696,900 game live on Twitch last night..."

You could go on and on...

If you want to get truly 100% serious about high score tables and all that stuff (which, this is a hobby and supposed to be fun really, and I feel it is taken way too seriously sometimes)...isn't playing a game live, with a ref or other DK pros around, the only true way to eliminate any possible doubt that a score was achieved fairly?

I understand that you can only go so far with verification, but as I said, just presenting some 'what if' scenarios.

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Offline LMDAVE

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Re: Donkey Kong High Score List
« Reply #109 on: April 25, 2013, 10:09:20 am »
Well, pre-recording is another thing that is thrown out now even with TG. Just seeing the initial screen once is fine. But, if someone did what you said, flipped the switches afterwards and cycled the power, well that would show up in their game play that they started with 5 men.

Reprogramming chips is the ultimate sin that no one hopes to ever come across. It is easy for someone to claim a score, or pass off a score on 6-man setting and say it was done on 3. Those "little white lies" can happen, but reprogramming of chips brings in a whole new realm of the honor system that no one hopes will get crossed.

Sometimes if I get lucky and get four 800's in a row on fireball rivets, I start wondering is there one person out there thinking I have a skewed machine. Luck happens, but most can tell if something is continually up. Accusations of hacked games we've seen claimed before on Wiebe are funny now. But, to have someone pull the wool over everyone in this community now would be hard.

A kill screen game using continues and trying to edit the continue part out would not work because of the continuity of the score and the reappearance of extra men.  But, now we're talking stuff even way beyond what TG even checks for.

This list is a pretty relaxed list, but has some rules.

Mike, I was unaware you had that whole 923K on tape. You should play the whole tape over twitch one day and that would be good enough I would think.

Or....this brings up something new. IS someone on the DK forum going to accept a full game on tape to view and verify?
« Last Edit: April 25, 2013, 10:11:04 am by LMDAVE »
Donkey Kong (Arcade): 1,108,100

Donkey Kong 1-1: 12,900

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Member for 11 Years DK 1.1M Point Scorer Winner of a community event Blogger DK 1M Point Scorer DK Killscreener Former DK Level 1-1 World Record Holder Twitch Streamer

corey.chambers

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Re: Donkey Kong High Score List
« Reply #110 on: April 25, 2013, 10:12:49 am »
Thanks Mike for all your great questions and observations. In order to obtain a list which we think is completely accurate with absolute and infallible certainty would be difficult to obtain for the reasons that you have given. For the purposes of this list I think that a reasonable amount of certainty is sufficient. If a score can withstand a decent level of scrutiny based upon the established criteria, then I think it merits great consideration. If for example, a new player shows up with a high score, we don't have to immediately place the score. Of all the criteria, I believe that the most important is the peer-review aspect. Even if a score fits most of the criteria, it still must get through the DK Community as a whole. In the case of Ben Mazowita, I believe that even though he is considered less well-known, there are those that have seen him play live that has given him more credibility. People have posted videos from him as well that demonstrate that he is the real deal. 

I have mentioned early that "...we could create 20 different lists with differing degrees of strict criteria, and that some scores may be on the lists on one end of the spectrum and not on ones furthest to the right. Where is our list? I would like to think that it would be our desire to have a list that is more on the right side of the spectrum. Obviously, I don’t expect anyone to drive over to anyone’s house and start dismantling their Donkey Kong machine. But what I do mean is that for a list to have relevance, and to endure the test of time, all scores that are submitted must endure a decent level of scrutiny. I think that we all agree that we want an evidence-based list, and not one that contains scores simply by word of mouth." This still remains a good question. Is the present criteria sufficient enough, along with the peer-review aspect of it, in order to spot edited videos and bogus scores if they come our way? I would like to think that we would do well to handle these cases as a community. Infallible? No. But with a high enough certainty that we can be proud of our list, and keep it accountable.

I have also mentioned in another place that "...the list mentions the source of the scores. This offers degrees of certainty concerning scores. The scores that are sourced from TwinGalaxies obviously ensures that the highest standards and verification has occurred. Some have done some higher scores live on Twitch, no verification done on the machines, but have slightly lower scores on the TG scoreboard. We know that it is likely that if they are using the same machines that they have been verified at one time.  And then there are those that have done live on Twitch that don't have any scores on TG. Some have seen the score live at an event. For some we may only have partial video of their games, and we could list these as sourced by YouTube. So on and so forth. Even on the list that we have there are degrees of certainty, as far as evidence is concerned." I think that this is an important function of the source information.

Is is perfect? No. Does it meet the general consensus of the DK Communities need for a list of high scores? I believe that it does. However, if anyone thinks that there should be some additional criteria that needs to be considered then that is fine with me. We are not accepting photographs due to editing issues. As far as I know Ben Mazowita's score is the only one that has been allowed from a partial video showing the 3 lives setting. That particular video seemed unedited, was offered as evidence by Hank Chein, at least some of us have seen him play live. I like to think Ben was a fair candidate for our list. I think that once all of the criteria is applied, including Community support, peer-review, and meeting the rest of the standards, I don't think that a lot of bogus scores will get through us, if any at all. I feel pretty confident in our competence in this matter. Maybe that is just me.

corey.chambers

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Re: Donkey Kong High Score List
« Reply #111 on: April 25, 2013, 10:24:37 am »
Well, pre-recording is another thing that is thrown out now even with TG. Just seeing the initial screen once is fine. But, if someone did what you said, flipped the switches afterwards and cycled the power, well that would show up in their game play that they started with 5 men.

Reprogramming chips is the ultimate sin that no one hopes to ever come across. It is easy for someone to claim a score, or pass off a score on 6-man setting and say it was done on 3. Those "little white lies" can happen, but reprogramming of chips brings in a whole new realm of the honor system that no one hopes will get crossed.

Sometimes if I get lucky and get four 800's in a row on fireball rivets, I start wondering is there one person out there thinking I have a skewed machine. Luck happens, but most can tell if something is continually up. Accusations of hacked games we've seen claimed before on Wiebe are funny now. But, to have someone pull the wool over everyone in this community now would be hard.

A kill screen game using continues and trying to edit the continue part out would not work because of the continuity of the score and the reappearance of extra men.  But, now we're talking stuff even way beyond what TG even checks for.

This list is a pretty relaxed list, but has some rules.

Mike, I was unaware you had that whole 923K on tape. You should play the whole tape over twitch one day and that would be good enough I would think.

Or....this brings up something new. IS someone on the DK forum going to accept a full game on tape to view and verify?

Dave, raises a good question. If I understand it correctly... Dave, are you asking whether there is a person in the DK Community that would be willing to receive a taped game and verify it at their house? We could just ask the person to play it over Twitch. I was talking with a guy last night who wanted to know if he should send his INP file to me. I told him to replay it on Twitch. Obviously this is not even perfect because one can just get any INP and play it over twitch. It was a lower score so I am more inclined to believe that it is actually his. In the case of INP playback on Twitch, it may be a good idea for the INP to be sent to someone who can verify the date of its creation. Or even better, as part of the stream, one will state that it is a replay, show the properties on the INP file, and start the playback while streaming. This at least can offer more information, such as when the score was actually achieved. But again, if we accept any WoldMAME-only INPs that are posted on MARP, we have the same issue. But I think that as a community we know who we are and will be able to welcome newcomers as they put up new scores. I mean, for someone to post it themselves to this forum, which is the normative way of submitting a score, then they could have other posts for us to get to know them, etc.

At the formation of this list I tried to be flexible as to what will go on it. I think that the best way for any Donkey Kong player to submit to our forum is to become a member, stream live on twitch, and get to know the other players on the stream list. In fact, for all future submissions, I expect about 95% of them to come by this means. This is the normative means, but we have been willing to assess some of these other scores initially because I wanted to be fair to Hank's list of killscreeners and wanted to see if we could get some of them verified. We will not accept many INP playbacks for sure, but I wanted there to be an allowance so that they could at least be considered, even if ultimately rejected because of a peer-review issue, or a general consensus of the DK Community that it is probably not genuine. In fact, I think that we ought to state this in the rules what is the normative process, but then state that exceptions could be made based upon a strict criteria which we already have. I think that is a great idea.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2013, 10:39:27 am by corey.chambers »

corey.chambers

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Re: Donkey Kong High Score List
« Reply #112 on: April 25, 2013, 11:02:03 am »
Allow me to make the following proposal. This is a newly created criteria list that should help the list not seem as relaxed. Let me know your thoughts.

Normative Rules: The Donkey Kong Community prides itself on its close connection to all the best players in the world. Because of this, it should be required that any scores posted to this high score list be done by the member who accomplished the score. This requires for the player to become a member of the DK Forum. All scores must be streamed live on Twitch, and their name should be added to the list of streamers so that all players may have ample opportunity to witness your scores. Your post to the forum will include your name, date, and a link to the broadcast. All scores achieved on an Arcade machine must be an original DK machine, the 3 in 1 machines being excluded. All scores achieved on MAME must be using WolfMAME, the only officially approved Arcade emulator of TwinGalaxies.   

Auxiliary Rules:
Scores verified by TwinGalaxies will be accepted. Scores that have been eye witnessed by a member of the DK Community will be accepted. MARP submissions or any other INP’s used must be WolfMAME-only INPs due to advantages allowed by other emulators. In the case of INP playback on Twitch, as part of the stream, one will state that it is a replay, show the properties on the INP file, and start the playback while streaming. This process alone will not guarantee the acceptance of a score, but pending upon further investigation. Screenshots and photographs are not adequate evidence of a genuine score. Any videos, such as those posted on youtube, which shows only the final moments of a game must demonstrate a restart to prove that the game was started with a 3 lives setting. Additionally, and most importantly, all scores on this list must be peer-reviewed in one manner or another. All scores which are being submitted according to the Auxiliary Rules will be handled on case by case bases and must be peer-reviewed, and a general consensus must be given by the DK Community that the score is probably genuine.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2013, 11:26:29 am by corey.chambers »

Offline mikegmi2

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Re: Donkey Kong High Score List
« Reply #113 on: April 25, 2013, 11:22:14 am »
Live streamed scores hold more weight, for me, than taped scores...so I like the stipulation for having to stream games live on Twitch.

Games played live 'in person', like at the Kong Off, hold the ultimate weight possible...as this is the only way to be 100% sure that someone didn't cheat/edit a tape/mess with ROMs in any way.
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Simpsons99

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Re: Donkey Kong High Score List
« Reply #114 on: April 25, 2013, 11:48:33 am »
I do not like the rule games must be streamed.

Not everyone can stream everytime we play...   But we can easyly record an Inp and send it to Marp.
At this moment in time .. I'm trying to figure out a reason i should go into my game room and Turn on my Donkey Kong Arcade Game?
Live streamed scores hold more weight, for me, than taped scores...so I like the stipulation for having to stream games live on Twitch.

Games played live 'in person', like at the Kong Off, hold the ultimate weight possible...as this is the only way to be 100% sure that someone didn't cheat/edit a tape/mess with ROMs in any way.

corey.chambers

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Re: Donkey Kong High Score List
« Reply #115 on: April 25, 2013, 11:48:55 am »
The high score list presently has 96 scores posted. 88.54% of those scores are from either TwinGalaxies or Twitch. Only 6.25%, which is 6 occurances, are MARP submissions of people we actually know. 4.16%, which is only 4 occurance, because a peer said they saw the score live. We only have 1 occurance where a score has been accepted by youtube, and that is the case of Ben Mazowita which we have discussed. So far the list seems rather strong and with the proposed criteria I believe it is a great list in the making.

corey.chambers

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Re: Donkey Kong High Score List
« Reply #116 on: April 25, 2013, 11:50:35 am »
I do not like the rule games must be streamed.

Not everyone can stream everytime we play...   But we can easyly record an Inp and send it to Marp.
At this moment in time .. I'm trying to figure out a reason i should go into my game room and Turn on my Donkey Kong Arcade Game?
Live streamed scores hold more weight, for me, than taped scores...so I like the stipulation for having to stream games live on Twitch.

Games played live 'in person', like at the Kong Off, hold the ultimate weight possible...as this is the only way to be 100% sure that someone didn't cheat/edit a tape/mess with ROMs in any way.

I understand your concern, Brian. That is why I listed some Auxiliary Rules to allow for scores that are not streamed live.

Offline stella_blue

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Re: Donkey Kong High Score List
« Reply #117 on: April 25, 2013, 12:27:47 pm »

I was always skeptical about the two records (DK & DK Jr.) on the same day at the same place.

Dave, there are other damning problems with videos from that day, one of which featuring the board swap from DK to DK Jr. (The video has since had its original audio track replaced by music using YouTube's audio-replacement feature.)

[noembed]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvJEaAYSp9k[/noembed]


An odd musical selection for a PCB swap.

I probably would have gone with "The Sky Is Crying", by Stevie Ray Vaughan.

Since I have the time to conduct unnecessary experiments, I muted the audio and replayed the clip, accompanied by the aforementioned SRV.  I think it works much better.

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hchien

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Re: Donkey Kong High Score List
« Reply #118 on: April 25, 2013, 12:38:27 pm »
Has anyone with an arcade machine ever taken an EEPROM dump of all of their ROMs and diff'd them with the known US Set 1 ROM data?

Richie and Jourdan actually did this for both Kong Offs.  Ironically Wag's machine was in the original KO and so it is one of the few scores performed on a ROM checked machine.

The reality of the situation is that no set of rules will eliminate cheating.  Give me a week and I can stream a 1.2M MAME game on twitch.  With a little extra effort, I could even make it appear live.  Give me a month and I can alter my arcade ROMs to give me an advantage.  In the end we have to trust each other's integrity.

Offline LMDAVE

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Re: Donkey Kong High Score List
« Reply #119 on: April 25, 2013, 12:42:02 pm »
Quote
Dave, there are other damning problems with videos from that day, one of which featuring the board swap from DK to DK Jr. (The video has since had its original audio track replaced by music using YouTube's audio-replacement feature.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvJEaAYSp9k



Oh, I didn't see this reply from yesterday. Yeah, scott, weird music to replace the audio.

Chris, I'm familiar with this video also, from when it had audio until it was change to this. Also, it's been pointed out to me that the board being taken out is not a DK board but either a DDK or DK Jr. board, and replaced with a DK Jr. board. That whole day of performing both of those scores live has so much suspect stuff. The weird thing is everyone just bought it (Even when these things were pointed out no one cared). But, to me, thats pretty bad if such actions were really taken back then to pass off previous tape recordings and claim them as both live on the same day.
Donkey Kong (Arcade): 1,108,100

Donkey Kong 1-1: 12,900

http://twitch.tv/LMDAVE
Member for 11 Years DK 1.1M Point Scorer Winner of a community event Blogger DK 1M Point Scorer DK Killscreener Former DK Level 1-1 World Record Holder Twitch Streamer