Accept submissions from Johns pace rom?

[mrvaya]

Hi all

John (Sock Master) have made great contributions to the world of Donkey Kong since entering this forum and is especially known for making Dk Remix. His latest work include a "tournament edition" of Donkey Kong (original gameplay with a pace calculator and stats between the screens).

I think that all scores by this rom should be accepted on DKF for both mame and arcade submissions (up and coming for remix pcbs) as it makes it very easy and enjoyable for all to "pop in" and follow peoples games and quickly get an overview of the start, pace, deaths on which boards and so. I think it will help making the community grow if the streams are more user/viewer friendly - and more people understand whats going on.

What do you think... yes or no?

Latest version of the pace rom is available for mame here: https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=1642.msg28462;topicseen#msg28462

[tilt]

I am voting yes... John made no changes to the game itself beyond the pace and level sizes.  This is as simple of a decision as allowing d2k submissions.  Jry might want to consider adding a symbol next to games played with this rom, however.

[WCopeland]

So we're considering accepting scores from a modified ROM that none of the current submissions on the board had access to?

This is not as simple of a decision as allowing D2K submissions. D2K loads a supposedly unmodified dkong rom ... this is a modified ROM. We're talking apples and oranges.

For pace on MAME, you can stream with Pauline and still use an unmodified US Set 1 rom. On arcade, there are a variety of calculators and charts that can be used that are just as descriptive, if not more so, than the modified ROM's metrics.

It would be crazy to accept this ... I'm voting no.

[aarontruitt]

The trainer is very cool but scores should not be accepted. I'm with Wes.

[mrvaya]

So we're considering accepting scores from a modified ROM that none of the current submissions on the board had access to?

Well the gameplay is exactly the same and the alterations only have to do with stats that wont give you any kind of advantage over those who did not had access to this rom. Its like playing the original rom with the old Pauline pace program running at the same time and showing info for the viewers. We never had any problems with that?

[Sock Master]

To clarify, we're not talking about accepting DK Trainer scores.   The trainer is a different ROM set with trainer functions and additional displays to assist the player, so that one is an obvious "No" for accepting scores.

All the DK Pace ROM does is show the pace in place of the high score, and a pace chart over the 'How High' screen between stages.   It does not do or have any functions that could aid or assist the player in any way.

[tilt]

This poll is strictly for the 'tournament' version of the game, rather than the trainer.  The trainer should absolutely not be allowed, due to the reading of the ram addresses and other hints this version gives you.  The tournament rom that sockmaster created is exactly the same as US set 1, excluding the fact that pace is displayed in between screens.  Unless there were other changes I do not know about, how can we allow '60 in 1'  multigame submissions which include slightly inaccurate emulation, and not this?  Allowing this version to be used would be largely beneficial to the Kong Off and other large venues in which the spectator may not be able to tell the difference between one play style and another.

[WCopeland]

60-in-1 scores are not marked on the HSL as Arcade or MAME. They're marked as JAMMA. This is, again, an apples and oranges argument. The 60-in-1 board doesn't ADD functionality to the game. The only thing it changes is the title screen text.

[tilt]

60-in-1 scores are not marked on the HSL as Arcade or MAME. They're marked as JAMMA. This is, again, an apples and oranges argument. The 60-in-1 board doesn't ADD functionality to the game. The only thing it changes is the title screen text.

As said in the shoutbox, both D2K and remix add freeplay to the original game.  This is an entirely new functionality that was never intended in the original game.  And I can say for sure, there have been 'freeplay scores' accepted to the HSL.  Unless we are holding two different standards, tournament edition scores should be accepted.

[WCopeland]

Arguing that free play is on the same scope as something like this is silly, but I also philosophically believe that if D2K and Remix modify the dkong roms in any way, they should not be accepted either. We only recently learned that D2K completely bypasses the onboard dkong roms and uses its own... if we had known that years ago I have a feeling those scores wouldn't have been accepted.

That's beside the point though -- two wrongs don't make a right.

[tilt]

Pace is not that difficult to calculate in your head. Once you are familiar with the formula and are familiar with what level scores equal what pace, it only take a few seconds at the end of each level to roughly figure what your pace is.

Example with a 120 start you need roughly 57.5 per level for 1.1m. If you score 54k on a level you fell behind. If you scored 61k you are ahead. Roughly every +1k on a level is another 17k for your pace.

The formula I use is:
Pace = Start + ((combined lvl scores - deaths / #lvls) * 17) + deaths

Maybe it looks complicated but in the end you just need to be familiar with what a 55k etc. lvl roughly equals out to and then it varies a bit depending on the start. So keep figuring each level score and you will know roughly what your pace is in a few seconds.

I think the best purpose of this rom is allowing spectators to quickly find out what pace a game is at.  I know from personal experience that those not familiar with the game have little to no knowledge on the difference between playstyles.  I understand where people are coming from, and out of principle, I would not allow this either.  However, it will be greatly beneficial to the competitive environment and those who are looking on un-aware of pace.

[LMDAVE]

I haven't followed any previous changes to what was accepted to the high score list in the last couple of years, but I would hope it would be still  limited to the original arcade/Mame roms. Regardless if only a few changes were made that doesn't change the game itself, there was still a modification made to the original ROMS. If there was a separate list tracking scores from John's ROMs that would be different, but allowing modified ROM scores into the main list changes the integrity of the original DK scores.

[ChrisP]

A big "no" from the "up to 4 men on whatever settings" guy.

While the degree to which it's an advantage will vary from player to player, an internal pace calculator is, regardless, an advantage. It totally automates, and removes from the player's overall cognitive load, the mathematical aspect of achieving a high score. The cost to the player's energy and attention in having to keep that particular mental plate spinning through the course of a game is (or can be) significant.

It's very surprising to see anyone in favor of this who was against something as immaterial as extra Jumpman sprites, which is, IMO, not an advantage. To me, anybody in their right mind trying to get a score with 4 lives will play life #4 exactly the same regardless of whether it's on 3+1 or 5+0, and the totally hypothetical and speculative argument to the contrary is coming from people who have no experience playing on anything except 3+1, but that's neither here nor there at this point.

Scores from non-standard PCBs (D2K and 60-in-1) are accepted because none have been demonstrated to alter the game's behavior in any way whatsoever, and certainly not in a way that actively assists the player. And while John did not alter the gameplay with DK Pace, an internal pace calculator would MOST DEFINITELY assist the player.

[f_symbols]

"While the degree to which it's an advantage will vary from player to player, an internal pace calculator is, regardless, an advantage. It totally automates, and removes from the player's overall cognitive load, the mathematical aspect of achieving a high score. The cost to the player's energy and attention in having to keep that particular mental plate spinning through the course of a game is (or can be) significant. "

I couldn't agree more, I can't believe we're still accepting scores where players were known to be using pauline along with their emulators, tisk tisk 

[ChrisP]

Well, having played on a cab with no calculator, and on 106 with Pauline open, I would say with no reservations that Pauline is definitely an advantage. In fact, having personally experienced it as an advantage is exactly why I feel the way I do about this. It's not a HUGE advantage, and neither would this internal calculator be, but it's a little somethin'. Not having to keep track of what I scored on the previous board or level because the stat is right there is one less thing to think about, and "one less thing to think about" makes a difference.

I'm not saying the answer is "ban Pauline", because a no-Pauline rule would be completely unenforceable and it's too late to do that anyway, but "disallow a modified ROM with a pace calculator" IS enforceable, and probably (?) should be.