Wildcard Rematch #2 Scoreboard

[ChrisP]

first person to reach the kill screen. 22-1 is the kill screen. 1-1 is the first screen of the game.

Mike G said something similar, so I would reiterate what I said earlier, since this is a key issue in the debate. There's a problem around the interchangeability of "screen" with "board" when referring to Donkey Kong sub-levels.

"Screen" doesn't necessarily mean "board" in the context of the specific phrase "kill screen," but maybe it does, and that's the issue: whether "kill screen" means "board 117", or "the moment of timeout death on board 117".

Sure it's a behind the scenes timer that actually kills you, but thats a non-visual bug going on.

I'd say that the "100" that pops up very briefly before the 4000 is definitely buggy-looking!

[Jeffw]

Also, something else to think about: If the killscreen were instead because of a giant wall of spikes in front of Pauline's ladder would the player be required to die by jumping into the wall of spikes? What if the wall of spikes was invisible? What is the difference between that and death by timeout on the real killscreen?

This is a what if and not a real situation and has no significance whatsoever.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe your opinion on the matter has come from the fact that you have a notion of what a killscreen is in general and you've applied that notion to donkey kong to decide what the true killscreen of donkey kong is. If this is the case, then to better understand and evaluate that notion I would find it extremely helpful to have it applied to other games as well as hypothetical killscreens such as the one I described.

Dying and being killed by the game are the same thing.

Thats not true, one you have control over and one you do not. This is at the heart of the issue and cannot be overlooked, minimized or skirted around with cleverly worded analogies that are not accurate representations of the situation.

Okay, so what you mean to say is that the deciding factor is: "When the player died were they in control or were they not in control of their death". That is a little better but I'm still confused at what you mean by control. If I jump up and land on a barrel, then you could say that I was not in control because for every frame that I was in the air there was nothing I could do to avoid the death. Also, death by timeout can be delayed by jumping up in the air so is the player then required to jump up in the air right before timing out, because otherwise they were still in control and could have survived longer by jumping (assuming they weren't carrying the hammer)?

[Scoundrl]

Welcome to season 3 of word games with Jeff...

Correct me if I'm wrong

Ok, you are wrong. I am basing my position on the Donkey Kong killscreen solely on the Donkey Kong killscreen and its details. Its you and a few others that are drawing parallels with other situations and games that are not relevant to THIS games killscreen.

That is a little better but I'm still confused at what you mean by control.

Of course you are.

If I jump up and land on a barrel, then you could say that I was not in control because for every frame that I was in the air there was nothing I could do to avoid the death.

You made the decision to jump and when to jump so you decided when you played donkey kong based on its ruleset when you land. If thats on a barrel, its player error (unless you did it on purpose for some reason which would still be in your control) no matter what level you are on (even 22-1). That player error caused your death, before the game bug caused your death so its GAME OVER, on level xx-1 by player error (or lack of player chosing to continue game play). 

Also, death by timeout can be delayed by jumping up in the air so is the player then required to jump up in the air right before timing out, because otherwise they were still in control and could have survived longer by jumping (assuming they weren't carrying the hammer)?

You can jump or not, thats your descision. If you land on a barrel doing it and the game ends then its GAME OVER due to player error. If you jump over it yah jeff, if you jump air and last a few frames longer yah jeff. The outcome is still respectively the same.


Stay tuned for Season 4...

[gstrain]

I just looked at the killscreen, and was reminded of one thing. Yes the bug kicks in right at the beginning, but you don't visually die because the timer timed out, the timer starts at 4000 after the bug, and you die when the timer is at 3700. It's a behind the scenes bug that still kills you at 3700 due to a calculation rollover.

For some reason, I was OK with the description of saying the bug happens as soon as you start, and you're left with 0500 after the bug. BUt, now I reminded myself that you die with 3700 left on the timer. Sure it's a behind the scenes timer that actually kills you, but thats a non-visual bug going on.

I had to go remind myself exactly what the kill screen looked like as well when I first saw this thread.  If the timer clearly showed 0500 and counted down from there, I would be more open to the notion that just reaching 22-1 was enough to prove you reached "the end".  However given the timer lies and appears to give you enough time to finish the board changes things for me.  Here are a couple of additional ideas I'll throw out:

1) How do you really 100% KNOW it is going to be a kill screen if you don't play the board out and let the timer actually kill you early?  I mean, maybe you don't even realize you're playing on a board set where the code is slightly different than what has been analyzed by Don Hodges and sometimes the kill screen doesn't kick in or it is altogether fixed?  Or maybe everybody has missed something in the code analysis and there is a weird case where the kill screen timer won't kill you?  Or maybe an electrical glitch will occur, corrupt the timer memory location, and you'll miraculously get extra time and can pass the screen.  If you get killed by a barrel you'll never know.  You haven't "proven" it is really a kill screen if you don't actually have the timer expire.

2) In line with (1) above, if anybody from the general public is watching, and you die from a barrel, are they going to believe you when you tell them it was the kill screen anyway?  Remember, the timer looks like you still had plenty of time to finish the board.  Lets say your are being broadcast live on G4 and you die on 22-1 getting hit by a barrel.  Is everybody really going to be satisified being told "well that was the kill screen" if they don't get to actually see the kill screen screenkill you?

That being said, anybody that can get to 22-1 obviously has 100% of the skill to get a screenkill.  However even though it is "trivial" to get once you've cleared the 21-6 rivets, we've already identified at least 3 cases where the players unintentionally died on 22-1 before the screenkill, most notably in the Wildcard Rematch #2.  So it can and does happen, so I agree that it worth clearly defining the terms, especially when bounties are being offered.

Finally, while being able to say you are a "kill screen" player or that a given game was a "kill screen" is a mark of recognition, the ultimate recognition for the game is and should be the score achieved.  If there are two games that both score 1,000,000 and one of them gets a screenkill and the other ends on 19-6, the non kill-screen game is clearly the much better game and will receive more recognition as such.  Similarly if there is a player that has scored 1,100,000 but has never had a kill screen and there is another player that has a high of 810K but has had a kill screen, the first player should and will be recognized as the better player.

-George

PS - I disagree with Ken about what happens if you get to 22-1 with more than one life left.  As long as you hit the timer with at least one of them, I'd give you full credit.

[Jeffw]

That player error caused your death, before the game bug caused your death so its GAME OVER, on level xx-1 by player error (or lack of player chosing to continue game play). 

You can jump or not, thats your descision. If you land on a barrel doing it and the game ends then its GAME OVER due to player error. If you jump over it yah jeff, if you jump air and last a few frames longer yah jeff. The outcome is still respectively the same.

So it sounds from this that it's not really about control but just about whether or not the death was caused by timeout.

Thats not true, one you have control over and one you do not. This is at the heart of the issue and cannot be overlooked, minimized or skirted around with cleverly worded analogies that are not accurate representations of the situation.

But here you say control is at the heart of the issue.

[Scoundrl]

Thats all you got kid?

This show has been canceled.

[Jeffw]

I'm just trying to better understand your opinion by getting clarification on a point of confusion. I want to know is it or is it not all about control?

[Scoundrl]

You have to meet all the criteria

[Jeffw]

I'm looking for a yes or a no.

[Scoundrl]

You have to meet all the criteria

You are a smart kid and I have great respect for you as a player so before this turns into a trolling match which I will DEFINITELY WIN, I'm going to bow out. I've made my case as thoroughly and clearly as I can. Its all there for you to review if it is that important to you. PM me if you really need  clarification on anything I have said and I will do my best to accommodate.

[Jeffw]

I'll try one last time. The question is:

Is not being in control of death a significant property that distinguishes death from timeout on level 22-1 as a killscreen as opposed to death by any other means?

That particular quote comes from a totally unrelated paragraph that never mentions control anywhere.

Edit: Ok, so if you don't want to continue the discussion that's fine. I have no intention of participating in a trolling match. I was just asking because it's not clear to me based on your past posts so I wanted clarification.

[Scoundrl]

To specifically answer that question... Control over the action that caused your death is important but not the only factor. I did cover this from several angles in more than one message but that should be specific enough for your question. Anything else lets take to PM

-Ken

[Fast Eddie]

id say that because the game has a specific endpoint (death for no obvious reason) then you ought to be there to see it...

i learned of the killscreen from KOK, so to me 'getting one' is all about jumpman 'up and dieing' on you, im kinda surprised this isnt near unanimous, but iv never thought people were using wrong terminology describing L22 as the killscreen, lots of words have different meanings depending how you say them...

 

[Simpsons99]

Yep most of learned of this from the KOK Movie.

If your not into these games don'nt bring up to people about points per screen. Point Pressing, and the Kill Screen.

They will look at you and say what is all that!

[lakeman421]

I have been busy with work lately I havent been on here or knew what debate was going on.  In my own opinion it isn't a kill screen game unless the kill screen kicks in.  When Vincent died on the kill screen I didn't consider it a kill screen game since that death could have happened on any barrel board. 

But as far as the wild card rematch 2 goes it stated for the bounty "The first person to REACH the kill screen"  I took it as just making it to that point and it wouldnt matter if it kicked in or not.  When Ethan died I figured he would still have the bounty because of the way it was worded.  Since it is Eric and John's event that they were kind enough to host I would agree with their decision either way since there are opinions and grey areas in this debate.  We should just keep this in mind for future events where occurrences like this are possible and how to handle them.  What if someone had spare men going into the kill screen?  Would all their lives need to end by the kill screen?  Just one?  Or just the last one?