Wildcard Rematch #2 Scoreboard

[homerwannabee]

first person to reach the kill screen. 22-1 is the kill screen. 1-1 is the first screen of the game.

If one reached the kill screen with two lives, the kill screen glitch takes the first, then the player loses the last life accidentally, then what?

Very good point.

[Jeffw]

We all agree that a killscreen must reach board 22-1, but to make distinctions beyond that point is subject to interpretation. So to me the most important criterion in deciding whether or not the player must die by timeout is respect. Killscreen is really a label of recognition that the community assigns to certain remarkable games that have reached the end of donkey kong. In order to argue that the player must die by timeout for a killscreen then you really need to argue that under all circumstances a player that dies from timeout deserves much more respect than a player that dies any other way on 22-1. I have not seen anyone give this argument. I have given specific examples where a player that dies from timeout does not deserve any more respect than a player that dies from other causes.

Also, something else to think about: If the killscreen were instead because of a giant wall of spikes in front of Pauline's ladder would the player be required to die by jumping into the wall of spikes? What if the wall of spikes was invisible? What is the difference between that and death by timeout on the real killscreen?

When stripped of all that it comes down to what Dave said.. Did you die or did the game kill you. Simple. Game.. Set... Match. ANYTHING other than that is subject to interpretation

Dying and being killed by the game are the same thing. I assume you mean, "Did you die by timeout or did you die for other reasons". Some here have interpreted that to be the correct definition of killscreen while others have not so it is by definition subject to interpretation. The only thing that's not subject to interpretation is that the killscreen must happen on 22-1.

[f_symbols]

"KS or not KS, that is the question: whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the spin of the KS bug, or to take arms against the wild barrel, and by opposing end them: to die, to sleep No more; and by sleep to say we end the game, and the thousand Natural shocks that the death is heir to?

Sorry, I couldn't resist 

[LMDAVE]

I just looked at the killscreen, and was reminded of one thing. Yes the bug kicks in right at the beginning, but you don't visually die because the timer timed out, the timer starts at 4000 after the bug, and you die when the timer is at 3700. It's a behind the scenes bug that still kills you at 3700 due to a calculation rollover.

For some reason, I was OK with the description of saying the bug happens as soon as you start, and you're left with 0500 after the bug. BUt, now I reminded myself that you die with 3700 left on the timer. Sure it's a behind the scenes timer that actually kills you, but thats a non-visual bug going on.

This is just a quick DK killscreen someone put up using a MAME cheat to demonstrate.

Donkey Kong Kill Screen on Level 22

[Scoundrl]

If one reached the kill screen with two lives, the kill screen glitch takes the first, then the player loses the last life accidentally, then what?

Then he's a dumbass.

[homerwannabee]

If one reached the kill screen with two lives, the kill screen glitch takes the first, then the player loses the last life accidentally, then what?

Then he's a dumbass.

Still it happens.  Seems that what you do is state your opinion as matter of fact, and be dismissive when someone puts up a good point. 

By the way, why are you so vested in this?  You really haven't spent a ton of time at the game, and I don't think you have aspirations to ever be one of the best in this game either.  Your calling card is Dig Dug.   This would be akin to Hank Chien spouting off on what the end of the game of Dig Dug should be called.  It's really not his place to say much about it since he is nowhere near as knowledgeable in the game as you are in it.   Don't you think the master Dig Dug players should be the ones who should decide what they call certain aspects in their game, and don't you think Master Donkey Kong players should be the ones who decide what they call certain aspects of their game?

[hchien]

OK my closing thoughts... I do like a good debate but this is getting out of hand!

If you go back and re-read this thread, in nearly every instance the word "killscreen" is used, it is referring to the board, not the bug.  People on both sides of the argument are using killscreen to refer to the board.  Some instances are ambiguous.  We are using one word to refer to 2 different entities.  I already proposed renaming the bug to screenkill since it makes more sense semantically.  Also we more commonly talk about the board and we are already referring to the board as the killscreen.  I think that would solve everything.

Getting back to the whole point of this debate.  I do believe the organizers of the WC rematch intended you to reach the screenkill for the bounty.  In the original rules "- $50 for the first person to reach a kill screen" could be interpreted either way.  I don't think they cheated Ethan out of the bounty but were just following what they intended the rules to be.  Good thing this didn't happen to Jeff when he attemped the backjump at KO2.  Otherwise Vincent would have gotten the 1st screenkill!

[Scoundrl]

If one reached the kill screen with two lives, the kill screen glitch takes the first, then the player loses the last life accidentally, then what?

Then he's a dumbass.

Still it happens.  Seems that what you do is state your opinion as matter of fact, and be dismissive when someone puts up a good point. 

By the way, why are you so vested in this?  You really haven't spent a ton of time at the game, and I don't think you have aspirations to ever be one of the best in this game either.  Your calling card is Dig Dug.   This would be akin to Hank Chien spouting off on what the end of the game of Dig Dug should be called.  It's really not his place to say much about it since he is nowhere near as knowledgeable in the game as you are in it.   Don't you think the master Dig Dug players should be the ones who should decide what they call certain aspects in their game, and don't you think Master Donkey Kong players should be the ones who decide what they call certain aspects of their game?

You want a real answer to the word game that is "If one reached the kill screen with two lives, the kill screen glitch takes the first, then the player loses the last life accidentally, then what?" ok here it is..

If you reach the killscreen with 2 men left and you run out of time and die, you run out of time and die. You then move on to your last life just as if you had died on 21-5 or 2-1 or any other level. You then lose that life of your own accord not due to the game killing you so its not a killscreen. You have to meet all the criteria, not just pick and choose and throw out oddball scenerios. Since you didnt sack your guy for the points on 21-6.. you are a Dumbass!
As for me being a dig dug player and not a DK player and being vested.. you wanna be the kettle or the pot?

Additionally I am a referee for Aurcade.com's scoreboard as well as likely being a referee in some capacity at the new Twin Galaxies with talks underway of my home arcade being a sanctioned Twin Galaxies location.

"How do you like them Apples"

[homerwannabee]

Well first off Ken, you may not know this, but a person who I think agrees with you, Eric Tessler, actually went into Level 22-1 with two men left intentionally.

Second off, when it comes to the standards I set out, I am no means a kettle or a pot.  I have spent a significant amount of time on Donkey Kong (I am just a slow learner on the game).  Second I do have aspirations to be one of the best Donkey Kong players out there (Again I am just a slow learner of the game).   Third, I actually have said that Hank's, and Jeff's opinion is far more significant than mine on the issue of Donkey Kong, and I am just low lying fruit.

Lastly, being a referee for Twin Galaxies, or Aurcade is not much of a qualification on talking about the finer details of Donkey Kong.  Neither is having your arcade sactioned as a site for Twin Galaxies a good example for knowledge of Donkey Kong.   

In this video is an example of a whole bunch non Donkey Kong experts talking about how they think Steve Wiebe's video game tape is proof of him cheating because of certain moves he does.   Any expert in the game has found this video as comedy gold because of the wild incorrect assertions of what they are saying.  This video also has a couple of Twin Galaxies refs in the audience at the time as well.

Steve weibe Donkey kong review from funspot 2007

Ken you definitely are an Alpha male of the arcade world.  I'll give you that, hands down.   That's why anyone is giving you any weight at all to what you are saying in this thread.  But the reality of the matter is just like me, you are far from an expert in this game.  All qualifications to be certified as a ref or official Twin Galaxies arcade owner does not change that fact.

By the way, most likely you will probably get the job as ref, and have your arcade certified by Twin Galaxies, and you are super qualified for both things in my opinion.

[Scoundrl]

I know it doesnt show because I rarely play DK but I am a pretty good player with a score in the 450's and the ability to score 55k l5+ levels when i am focused. I have been around since the original 'million point march' thread on TG, have read and understand Don Hodges write up on the killscreen bug and have watched and interacted with the top players over the last several years. I am not just a novice spouting things out without any background.

Granted I am better at Dig Dugs game play but I would say I actually know MORE about Donkey Kong than I do about Dig Dug and definitely FAR more that the average player.

Those idiots in that video are funny, and it is as you say comedy GOLD. I am not one of those guys.

Lets not make this personal George. I like you.

[Scoundrl]

Also, something else to think about: If the killscreen were instead because of a giant wall of spikes in front of Pauline's ladder would the player be required to die by jumping into the wall of spikes? What if the wall of spikes was invisible? What is the difference between that and death by timeout on the real killscreen?

This is a what if and not a real situation and has no significance whatsoever.

Dying and being killed by the game are the same thing.

Thats not true, one you have control over and one you do not. This is at the heart of the issue and cannot be overlooked, minimized or skirted around with cleverly worded analogies that are not accurate representations of the situation.

[homerwannabee]

OK, Ken truce.  Truth be told, I probably would not even go with the "your no expert" argument if I was actually "An expert" myself.  I just decided to try to Kamakazi both arguments by slamming my argument airplane in your argument ship.

Truth be told this is really all about semantics, and like someone said if someone didn't lose a prize because of a killscreen fail, none of this would have mattered.   If I wasn't so poor, I would say screw it, and simply offer the guy $50 out of my own pocket in a gesture to say he deserved the reward even if he didn't get the the contest $50.

I like you to man, and I probably did cross some line even if I was simultaneously ripping on myself.  So sorry about the Kamakazi argument tactics. 

[Scoundrl]

OK, Ken truce. 

Truce

[VON]

I like you

I like you

Ken and George are sittin' in a tree..

Gross!  Get a room you two.

[marky_d]

Ken and George are sittin' in a tree..

Gross!  Get a room you two.

At the Man Hole.