Donkey Kong Forum
General Donkey Kong Discussion => The Kong Off => Topic started by: Shane_NC on August 06, 2013, 09:40:27 am
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http://www.twitch.tv/richieknucklez/c/2701772 (http://www.twitch.tv/richieknucklez/c/2701772)
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I didn't observe a single scantily clad woman in that music video.
This is unmarketable, unconscionable, egregious, outrageous!
Channeling Jackie Chiles in a DK forum post is yet another item I can cross off the bucket list. 8)
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Stay classy TG....stay classy.
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Hey Glen, are you saying you want a verse too? :D
It's a long drive to Iowa. I have a video game to make during the trip, but I'm sure we could spare 10 minutes to come up with something classy!
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Sure, but I demand royalties.
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Fair enough. Although assuming we'd make any dough at all off the verse is assuming an awful lot. :)
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I would like to point something out, though. Me and Richie singing a song is our response, and we don't speak for TG as musical artists.
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Me and Mike Sao Pedro got cut from the original cut? Ha! It's because we like Rally-X? ;)
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Well as long as the verse is as classy as this line....
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I was wondering when you were going to notice, Steve!
Yes, it's the Rally-X. I fought to keep you guys in, but Richie wasn't having it. Also Super Supreme, Greg Bond and Pat Laffaye and a bunch of top DK players got cut as well. The new "keep your shirt on Vince Lemay, Jeff Willms may have won the belt but you put the 'it's on like' in the game... Salter and Tessler and Harrist made the wildcard crew grow, I heard Richie paid Von Dummpenstein to steal the keyboard from Saglio" verse had to go there for the pacing of the song. So blame those guys.
But don't worry, we'll play it when we do it live:) actually we really will. When we get to your name it sounds like a church choir: Stephen Wagner, Stephen Wagner, Stephen Wagner! Steeeve, Wagnaaaaar!
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Glen I can't tell if you are really angry or not. That's a pretty good deadpan delivery you have there.
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I'm not angry. I was just joking like you were with the song. :D
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keep your shirt on Vince Lemay
Don't tell me how I should live my life!!! ;)
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Ok good, you had me worried there for a second.
I didn't expect the 'suck my dong off fools' line to be the one everyone took away from it. That line came up on the spot totally spontaneously trying to make something fit and rhyme with rules. We had the kong off/dong off thing but didn't know if it was going to make it into the verse. Again, this was all just to pass the time goofing around and making each other laugh for ten minutes this morning.
But the line is so silly, with the fool to rhyme at the end, I guess it stands out.
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I give up!
I can't parse anyone or anything for intent anymore...
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We love you Vince! (no homo) You can do anything you want, and Richie would say it was the best thing ever. He thinks you are the poster boy for the New DK generation. But we liked the double meaning of 'keep your shirt on' since you take your shirt off, and also it's a saying that means 'hold on a second' like 'hold your horses'
You put the 'it's on like' in the 'its on like Donkey Kong' Vince!
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'Aint no F'n MAME machines here on Donkey Kong Off Row'
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I give up!
I can't parse anyone or anything for intent anymore...
That's the spirit, Chris!
I told you guys I work for the Discordians, right? Operation Mindfuck. I'm chef of operations. Yes that is not a typo. No? I never mentioned this before? Well, no wonder there's some confusion. Sorry about that!
But seriously, like I keep saying, when we're all together at the Kong Off it will all be clear and make more sense.
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Don't worry George mate, I was obviously kidding ;).
I'm fine MAME scores are not accepted for dedicated machine (but still accepted for wild carder, which is cool), it just seemed that some people were a little bit bashing on MAME, which disappoints me, since MAME is obviously an important part of the arcade culture.
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'Aint no F'n MAME machines here on Kong Off Row'
See, now the lyrical muse is starting to inspire Ken. You me and Richie should collaborate on the next verse!
There could be a mame machine at the kong off, but you'd have to play it in your underpants. On an arcade machine you don't have to, but you could if you wanted.
I know one day there will be a verse about Zoo Keeper moods. It will be a very long, sixty page verse.
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Like I said in Phil's stream the other day:
You can make the rules, but that doesn't give adequate justification that those rules are wisest/best. Additionally, it doesn't supply justification on a moral grounds either.
Until a justification is given beyond an essentially 'might makes right' response, I'm not really swayed that this move is a good one.
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Oh Mitch, we were poking fun at ourselves. Might never makes right in my book. We all know each other's different opinions about this subject at this point.
But my opinion counts as much as a DK purists opinion. Just because I don't meet the high standards of and I'm not allowed into the elite inner circle of the online DK community doesn't mean my opinion should be dismissed. Especially when my opinion is shared by many of the competitive arcade players, from the 80's to today.
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But my opinion counts as much as a DK purists opinion. Just because I don't meet the high standards of and I'm not allowed into the elite inner circle of the online DK community doesn't mean my opinion should be dismissed. Especially when my opinion is shared by many of the competitive arcade players, from the 80's to today.
Just to let you know that this is the closest that you have ever sounded like Brian Allen, except for the better grammar part. Oh yeah, I have had plenty of moments myself, but given your feelings about him my previous statement should make you stop, and ponder. Personally though, I don't think anyone really respects your opinion any less than the "Inner Circle" of gamers. Except for maybe Brian Allen. ;)
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Oh Mitch, we were poking fun at ourselves.
Really? 'It' (assuming you are referring to the song verse posted at the start of this thread) came across as extremely passive-agressive, if not extremely explicit. Regardless, that does not deal with the specific issue I was posting about.
Might never makes right in my book.
Excellent! Then you should equally share my desire for an actual justification.
But my opinion counts as much as a DK purists opinion.
Wait... to whom is this referring? Does anyone actually only play DK? If so, is this someone who is a top DK player? I doubt anyone fits this criteria.
Or does this mean people who want to include MAME submissions in the KO2 top-12 qualification process? If so, I don't understand how this could be considered 'purist'.
...the elite inner circle of the online DK community...
I have no clue what/whom exactly this is referring to. Whatever exactly it is, it seems like a bold postulation that wasn't given due attention. Maybe explain yourself further.
...doesn't mean my opinion should be dismissed. Especially when my opinion is shared by many of the competitive arcade players, from the 80's to today.
I agree. So... we know what the opinion is... but what is its justification(s)? That's all I'm prying at. I completely understand the fact that TG/1up can do the KOs exactly how they want to, but -as I have said elsewhere- the issue is why do they want what they want? The explanation of this aspect of their opinion is what would be considered the 'justification' for their view.
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Ironically, if I had never done 1,135,900 on arcade at the 1up, I would've never been able to qualify for Kong Off 3 by putting a VERIFIED score on arcade (my highest would've been 988k, done at KO2, which wouldn't have been enough to qualify for KO3). But I can bet anything that if I hadn't done my 1,135,900, they would have adjusted the rule so I can participate at the Kong Off 3.
That is the ironic part. It's like when/if Billy Mitchell or Steve Wiebe will be out of top 12 (they are 7th and 8th right now), they will still be invited for top 12. They would make exceptions for "big names" for Billy/Steve/myself, but not for new comers anymore. This is the sad part.
No hard feeling for not inviting MAME players, but I shall remain disappointed.
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George Riley says I sound like Brian Allen. Have I mentioned recently: I love this scene! (No homo) I'll tell you, I've been a part of many communities over the years and had many hobbies, but this one is far and away the best. Nothing like it anywhere.
Mitch, I can't get into a cut and paste fight. You win, ok?
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You don't have to get into a copy and paste war... just explain why TG/1up has decided to choose this setup. It's really that simple. I'm sure you have direct contact with Richie quite often. Ask him.
So long as the justification remains unclear, there remain daunting reasons why this particular decision was a poor choice.
P.s. George, as far as I have had interaction with you, you have not been the type of person to simply dismiss an argument in the way you seemingly are here with your previous comment -unless, you think that I, like you have made clear that you believe is the case with John Lexmark, am simply and intentionally being a troll. Do you think this of me? Am I not raising a legitimate question? I know I am most definitely not alone on this matter, so I'm not just speaking for myself.
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The win goes to Mitch, oh wait, resigning a discussion does not concede the point. To be honest, I am not completely upset over only allowing Arcade scores. I can see the value of promoting the nostalgia of the old arcade culture. I totally get that. Thirty years from now we will still want to fight for the nostalgia of an original arcade machine, as long as they continue to last. And we must continue to preserve the feel and culture of the classic arcade games. Three hundred years from now maybe we will only have new mame arcade setups to work with. The overall perpetuity of the community demands adjustments as time goes on, but we must preserve what can be preserved. Does this preservation exclude any and all exceptions without further justification? No. I believe that an exception can be made for a couple Mame players here and there in the future without violating the overall goal of having an all Arcade competition. After all, they will be competing on the arcade machine at the Kong Off, just as the players will be doing in the Wildcard. The feel and culture that is stirred by the Kong Off already has the preservative factor and social impact. Inviting Vincent to Kong Off 1 because he had over one million on mame, and inviting Dean and Jeff to the Kong Off 2 because of their mame scores, is a good example of a couple exceptions to the overall rule. If a player can and does prove their skills on mame, they are not merely proving a mame score, they are showing their capabilities. As a community we can not overlook the capabilities of an incredible player because one or a few people have created an absolute without clear justification beyond the mere statement of the position. Ultimately, their is no clear justification. If the Kong Off 3 allowed one mame player, would anyone even know or care? The main problem here is that a discussion is not taking place. And discussions are at the heart of a community. We must work together to accomplish great things. As long as no clear justification is offered as to why a single mame exception would tarnish the preservation of the original arcade culture, or would have a negative impact on the social level with the Kong Off 3, people will continue to be disappointed, nay, even disrespected, because their voice, no matter how small it is said to be, which it is not, will not only not be heard but will be treated as if it does not have any value at all. And that is not how you treat people.
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MAME is for practice! That's my opinion, and I thought I had made that abundantly clear. What more justification do you want? I should explain why I think mame is for practice? We've been through this all so many times. There was a show on Sunday, Richie said what he thought, a bunch of other folks did too. That was that, case closed, no?
And Mitch, I already explained the joke verse in this very thread. Yet you still think it was passive aggressive? I don't know what to tell you then. I explained myself, if you don't like my explanation, what can I do. You're going to think what you want to think, see what you want to see.
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But my opinion counts as much as a DK purists opinion. Just because I don't meet the high standards of and I'm not allowed into the elite inner circle of the online DK community doesn't mean my opinion should be dismissed. Especially when my opinion is shared by many of the competitive arcade players, from the 80's to today.
George your opinion counts as much as anyone elses. Just to clear things up, what exactly is your opinion? And what is the basis for this decision you have made?
Im pretty sure half this message was a troll but I will address it anyways. The high standards of the DK community are just having a love for the game and being active within the community. These arent high standards in my opinion.
As far as the inner circle, Ive heard the whole CAG community as a whole reffered to as something like this, not that I believe it. However, The Donkey Kong community has no inner circle. The 200K players have the best players in the world watching their streams and rooting them on nightly. We support anyone that plays Donkey Kong. We've had 20 people on a NES DKers stream one night just to show support. The DKF has really opened up a venue where the beginners and pros can all get together, share strategy, encouragement, and have a good time. There are no secrets in the DK community, unlike most CAG games every bit of high level strategy for DK is published and well known.
From 206K to 637K, these guys have been with me the whole way, helping me and encouraging me. I'm just a no name player from North Carolina and was taken in like a lifelong friend. I couldnt say enough good things about the DK community and DKForums.
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MAME is for practice! That's my opinion, and I thought I had made that abundantly clear. What more justification do you want? I should explain why I think mame is for practice? We've been through this all so many times. There was a show on Sunday, Richie said what he thought, a bunch of other folks did too. That was that, case closed, no?
George... man what da.... you act like everyone has access to an arcade cabinet. This isnt true! For some people mame isnt for practice, mame is as close as they will ever get. These cabinets can costs upwards of 800-1000 dollars, then you gotta fight the wife/girlfriend to store it. I looked for 9 months every single day before I found 1 DK come up in my area for sale. 9 complete months to ever see a DK arcade in person...
Honestly, I wish you could put yourself in some of these players shoes.
God forbid any of our european players who will never ever EVER get to see a real dedicated DK cabinet. Mame isnt their practice.. MAME is their lifeblood
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MAME is fine, play as much as you want. Getting out of your comfort zone and playing at a live event is more impressive. No one said it was going to be easy. I didn't just waltz right into Richie's arcade and break the record. It took hard work and sacrifice, time and money. I am walking in my own squeaky jumpman shoes. I know what it's like.
And if I broke the 5 man qbert record at home after days and weeks and years of endless restarts, are you seriously going to tell me that it is just as impressive as going to the Kong-Off and having 2 days to make a score that takes over 5 hours to get? And I did 8 hours. Limited time, pressure is on, all the great DK players and many of the best players in the scene and some of your best friends watching, literally looking over your shoulder. Same thing?
I give these examples from my personal experience in the hopes that it will explain why I see things the way I do, why I have the opinions I have. Try to grok it, as they used to say in ancient Atlantis. I'd like it if you guys would get it so you'd stop asking me the same questions over and again.
I understand there is a positive side to the online community, why would I have a problem with that? My problem is with the extreme opinion, that mame should count the same as arcade. Is DK just a rom and a score, or is it more than that? And is an arcade machine all it is about, or is it also about the arcade and the people in it? Some people have mixed views, fall on different degrees of the spectrum of opinions. But you can't tell me that there isn't an inner circle if online players that could care less about what I say because I play DK drunk once every few weeks at the end of the night at the bar. I can even get past the 3rd elevators and who cares? I'm not part of the DK elite. Richie is even better than me at DK, who cares? His opinion is met with derision. And he puts on the fucking Kong off for you guys. No respect, I tell you.
Well, you asked. But really, we know where we all stand now? Let's stop with the asking for clarification bullshit. If you still refuse to let it all sink in, well when we get to the Kong Off you will understand. I guarantee it. Ross will be doing his DKjr impersonation, and you will have an epiphany, the scales will fall from your eyes. Kongalujah my brothers and sisters.
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Ross will be doing his DKjr impersonation...
Fk me. The bs that comes out of my mouth sometimes, I swear.
Guess it's time to buy a unitard.
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I'm gonna play devil's advocate (George being the devil) on a point or two here: a demonstrated ability to play well on an arcade machine is absolutely a legitimate, practical concern for admission to this tournament.
It is not at all unreasonable to demand that someone who is going to compete on an arcade machine against the most extreme competition to prove that his skill on the machine is on par with his skill on MAME.
Some will say "the skills transition directly between platforms."
I would say "not necessarily." And certainly not necessarily right away. This is a two-day event. "Right away" matters.
Everyone is different. Just because Jeff Willms was able to transition to a machine instantly doesn't mean that everyone would be able to.
In fact, it's been shown anecdotally again and again that most players do NOT make the transition instantly. They need time. Hank, Dean, Corey, all of them needed time.
So if you have a guy who got 1.1 on MAME but it's going to take him 2 days (or more) to get used to the ergonomics of a machine because he's never touched one before - which is absolutely going to be true for at least some MAME players - by then it's too late. The contest is already over and one of the machines will have been given to a player who was not ready to compete, in lieu of some other player who was.
The proven ability to "bring it" in a live/noisy/chaotic environment is also a perfectly logical basis for selecting Kong Off contestants.
Even if a player could get 1.1 million on every single game at home on MAME, it means nothing if he falls apart into a puddle of nerves when a crowd is watching him and/or he isn't comfortable with a joystick. He may be an absolutely phenomenal Donkey Kong player, but he isn't fit to compete in the particular context of this tournament.
Can Phil play on a machine? Can he play well in a noisy bar? Nobody knows, except possibly Phil. He hasn't demonstrated it. Robbie proved both though at Funspot, which is why Robbie is in now.
There are more personal characteristics and abilities being put to the test at a Kong Off than pure game ability.
Steve Wiebe is the perfect example. Even though he's far from the best point-presser, he still has the best overall showing at the Kong Offs (2nd and 3rd, respectively), and that's because he knows how to play these tourneys, has incredible consistency, and knows how to deal with the environment. (He also put on a fantastic show, both years.) The skill set for a tournament has a lot more texture than just "personal best."
Most of the pro-MAME contingent is arguing from the basis that the event should include all of the best players. They're arguing from that basis, at least in part, because that's what the event bills itself as.
So, I would say that Twin Galaxies' solution is simple: stop billing it that way. All you have to do is add one word and shift another.
Change "the 12 best Donkey Kong players in the world," to "12 of the best Donkey Kong players in the world." Or even "the 12 best Donkey Kong arcade machine players in the world."
Sell it like that and the pro-MAME contingent instantly has a much shakier leg to stand on because the event no longer needs to satisfy the central underlying premise of the MAME argument (that the Kong Off HAS to include ALL the best players).
I realize that "arcade only" will be a limiting factor for certain players, particularly foreign players, and that sucks, but there are already limiting factors anyway. The tournament is in a certain physical place at a certain time, and that's pretty prohibitive just by itself.
So, I don't love the no-MAME decision, but I can be comfortable with it, because I can actually see some pretty solid logic in it.
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I think that the only thing I wish to convey is that your response here does not address the issue of inviting an extraordinary mame player to come and play on an arcade machine in front of everyone, and in the case of the Kong Off 2, won it! I totally agree with you 100%. The Kong Off is a wonderful culture, preserving the original arcade cabinets, and we all respect and support that, and we will continue to do so with a thankful heart. When we are at the Kong Off we will feel everything that you have proposed, and we would feel it whether one mame player was invited or not, such as at the Kong Off and Kong Off 2. Making the extraordinary exception does not detract from anything you have said. At the Kong Off we will all be playing in public with people looking over our shoulder, on arcade machines, and yes it is a different feeling then streaming online, there is no doubt. We will all enjoy it, and we all do appreciate it. And if the decision is to be made for Arcade only then if one were to apply that to the Kong Off and Kong Off 2 in retrospect then would we still have the same outcome? No. In fact, if a principle can not be applied to all three Kong Offs in the same way, then we should question that principle. Jeff Willms would not have won the Kong Off 2. In fact, he made it exciting that way! Because of the discontinuity that is created with a principle that clearly shows this fatal flaw, much more than a mere explanation will be required. Like I said, has the exception in the past destroyed anything about this live competition? Did it add value? Did it allow one of the world's greatest Donkey Kong players a chance to come and win it? And isn't that what it is all about? Look at what the principle of an extraordinary exception has done for the Kong Offs in general. If it has added value, then why remove it? And if it has not destroyed but rather enriched the event, then why is it not maintained in continuity with the effects it has had on the past? People want an explanation, but in reality no true rational explanation can be given, there exists no justification at any level of this discussion, because of the discontinuity. If it can be clearly shown how this principle of an extraordinary exception has hindered the arcade culture, then people will begin to be satisfied, if it can be clearly shown that this principle of an extraordinary exception has not added any value to the previous Kong Offs I believe people will begin to listen. But I believe that no justification exists, if you or anyone else thinks that there is, unfortunately the burden of proof lies upon them. Asking our parents why we can't go to the mall on friday night with some of our friends may be met by a I told you so, but we are not children, and we are not easily placated by platitudes. The responses we usually receive are statements such as the preservation of the arcade culture, but it does not follow that eliminating the extraordinary exception works towards this end, in fact history has shown us otherwise. The non sequitur logical fallacy is clear. Comments are usually made that minimize the significance of mame, and so we are getting attitudes, not arguments, assertions are being made but arguments are not being formulated. We are not children and we are far from ignorant, and we are not easily amused.
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I fully agree with Chris's ideas as well. I personally don't mind an all arcade rule, and I don't think that an absolute mix of mame and arcade scores needs to happen, that is not my point. My point is for the possibility of an extraordinary exception. I don't think an absolute rule needs to be in effect. A relative one that allows room for an extraordinary exception will actually support other principles that underlie the whole issue.
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It should also be noted that just because someone has a high score on Arcade does not mean that they have played in front of a crowd, and just because some one is playing on mame at home does not mean that it is not with control panel controls or in a mame cab, or on a multi-board the a TG score does not accept. So there can be cases where a mame player already has the skills for the competition. Given that an extraordinary case can exist, is why the possibility for an extraordinary exception should be left on the table, and the issue not absolutized.
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I think Chris hit the nail on the head. They want people that have proven to be good on an actual arcade cabinet. Since it is an arcade competition, allowing someone with no arcade background could potentially lead to a big flop, since the contest is short duration - it is possible they will not be able to perform at a suffiecient level and quickly be able to adjust from mame to arcade. And in this situation it is possible that a player with a much lower arcade highscore could potentially outperform a mame superstar.
Not saying that they can't easily adjust, but they dont want to take any chances, and I guess you really can't blame them for that.
My biggest gripe is the accessability of these cabinets;however, apon further reflection - If a person has the money and time to travel to the KO then they also should be able to travel to an arcade machine if need be and get the proper verification. So really this cancels itself out.
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I really hate to say it, but I totally understand where they are coming from and it makes logical sense.
I believe the major crux of their argument is this:
1) They want players that have proven themselves on arcade to take top 12 spots on dedicated machines. This prevent any disasterous chokes from a potential mame player having trouble adjusting to the short duration tournament.
2) Even though these machines are not easily accessible for some players; Neither is the KO3. If you can find the time, money, resources to attend the KO3, then you should be able to find the time, money, resources to get the proper verification on a cabinet. No one is getting free airfare so travel costs to KO would be comparable to travel costs for a cabinet score.
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The new format for the expanded wildcard division damn near completely solves these problems and objections, which is one of the reasons I absolutely love it.
It allows Richie to get what he wants (the 12 highest scoring players on TG's arcade list on the dedicated machines), for whatever reasons he wants it, while also allowing the MAME or can't-get-a-cab folks ample opportunity to compete and possibly even win the whole tournament.
If the "extraordinary exception" shows up and is really that extraordinary, he'll cut through the wildcard field with no problem, and have almost as much time on a cab as the dedicated players. If he turns out NOT to be so hot live, then good, a dedicated cab was not lost.
If Phil comes and plays in the wildcard division (a spot which he has already earned), he'll dominate, and it will be just as awesome as if he had his own machine. And he WILL have his own cab, for one of the three days.
I'm telling you guys, the wildcard division format this year is absolute tits! I loved it at first sight and love it even more now after this MAME decision. It is an entirely satisfying compromise, at least in my opinion.
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I like numbers, and I think numbers can clarify an argument very nicely. Sometimes a persons principles can cloud common sense. So I ask a simple question.
Is a 1.089 million score on MAME more impressive than a 1.025 million score on Arcade? The answer should be clear as day. Getting a 1.089 million score is much much harder. I can see this being a legitimate argument if we were talking about a 1.035 million score on MAME Vs. a 1.025 million score on Arcade. Then there is not enough difference, and the Arcade argument has validity. So getting that extra 64k means that one has to average an extra 550 points per screen. Not the easiest task considering it means going full out on hammer, and going hard on grouping. At 1.025 you basically need to go top, and bottom hammer with a little bit of grouping for a couple of levels. In my opinion that is a BIG difference, a difference that is much bigger than the difference between playing on MAME Vs. Arcade.
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Everyone, heres the deal.
Richie and Jordan Adler own Twin Galaxies and several (b)Arcades. They have a vested interest in maintaining arcade only. and that is ok. this is a business decision. I know that not everyone has a DK cabinet, and mame is the only option, or some people prefer mame, but the fact is is that in order to bring more people to their establishments,and also bring more attention to their business(es), they want to focus on arcade scores and arcade players. Im sure in there eyes it is almost like a NES DK score being allowed for the Kong Off. Although we may not agree, you have to look at it from their point of view, and realize it is to build there business(es) (again nothing wrong with that) im sure if richie or Jordan owned a "mame arcade" they would have only focused on mame players. there should be no hard feelings here because, in the end, they are still putting on a DK tournament which benefits this community.
-Dustin P.
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Dustin hit the point I was going to bring up. This is ultimately business decision.
When Richie started the Kong Off...it was a little different as far as I understand...because he didn't have a stake in TG at the time...and it was pretty much all about DK and putting on a cool event for the top DK players around.
It's different now. They're trying to grow their business. They have a scoreboard to promote. They put a lot of time and effort into all of this and thus should have the right to make rules.
What would happen if Joe Smith the golfer shot a 67 at Agusta, proved he was as good as the best golfers in the world...but didn't want to go through the process of getting his PGA card, didn't want to go through Q school, didn't want to properly qualify and play in live tournaments...just skip it all and expect the PGA to allow him to play with all the other people that went through all the extra trouble, followed the rules, traveled to events, paid their dues and fees...etc.
What if everyone did that? There would be no PGA. There would be no NBA. There would be no professional baseball or leagues of any kind. Someone had to start these things up, and someone had to make rules that had to be followed and honored in order to properly keep these events/leagues going.
Think about this...what if someone from Nintendo leaked the DK roms...it got out into the public, people stayed at home and played DK on MAME only because who would pay to play a game they could play for free?! (i know MAME didn't exist back then)...and the arcade machines flopped...Nintendo made nothing off of Donkey Kong...and went away before they ever had a chance to grow into what they are today! Imagine that. No Nintendo anything...no Zelda...no Metroid...no NES.
I'm sure there are individuals in all sports that are as good or better than the players that have contracts and play for professional teams. People that for whatever reasons, didn't want to go through the process, or follow the leagues rules, or sign a contract, or travel, or be away from their families for months...etc...so they never made it to the pros. Does that mean they're any worse of an athelete...no. It simply means for whatever reason, because of circumstances, beliefs, choices, life events, whatever reason...they never got there.
I mean I guess anyone could start up their own league for any sport, and make up their own rules. Anyone could start up their own DK event. Maybe if someone started up a MAME only event...it that would eventually grow bigger than the Kong Off? Who knows.
But for the Kong Off, they started it, they put in the work and time, and they get to make the rules as well. I feel that is fair.
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What would happen if Joe Smith the golfer shot a 67 at Agusta, proved he was as good as the best golfers in the world...but didn't want to go through the process of getting his PGA card, didn't want to go through Q school, didn't want to properly qualify and play in live tournaments...just skip it all and expect the PGA to allow him to play with all the other people that went through all the extra trouble, followed the rules, traveled to events, paid their dues and fees...etc.
https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=323.msg7044#msg7044 (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=323.msg7044#msg7044)
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I look at this almost as saying don't let people with certain skin color into the club versus "You didn't get your PGA membership". Is that extreme comparison? Sure it is but even with all the comments made in jest it probably still pokes a stick in the hornets nest.
Is membership playing at home 1000 times on your personal cabinet? Seems to be and makes it feel to me that all the points you were trying to make moot George. Nothing stops someone from saying its my contest and this is the way I want to do it because this is what I truly believe in but I just don't understand WHY build a wall against the community your TRYING to encourage to be involved in the arcade culture?
It's not a lack of respect to say "Hey I really don't understand why your doing this". I totally respect what they are doing. I even think the WC option solves a lot of the problems and concur with the "You will have a dedicated machine on Sunday so if your not good enough to make it to then you didn't deserve to be there anyway". All of those are valid but I feel it's still ok to say "I don't really understand why the qualification portion of this event is being done this way".
We can have a real discussion about this face to face since typed comments can come across completely different versus talking to someone and like I said I am not trying to be a jerk here. :)
I can point out what I see as obvious shortcomings here George or perhaps my side of the fence will not look so green anymore afterwards. Nothing but love for you all :)
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I like numbers, and I think numbers can clarify an argument very nicely. Sometimes a persons principles can cloud common sense. So I ask a simple question.
Is a 1.089 million score on MAME more impressive than a 1.025 million score on Arcade? The answer should be clear as day. Getting a 1.089 million score is much much harder. I can see this being a legitimate argument if we were talking about a 1.035 million score on MAME Vs. a 1.025 million score on Arcade. Then there is not enough difference, and the Arcade argument has validity. So getting that extra 64k means that one has to average an extra 550 points per screen. Not the easiest task considering it means going full out on hammer, and going hard on grouping. At 1.025 you basically need to go top, and bottom hammer with a little bit of grouping for a couple of levels. In my opinion that is a BIG difference, a difference that is much bigger than the difference between playing on MAME Vs. Arcade.
I agree with everything above. Something else that needs to be considered, other than just the points and scoring averages per level...is the rest of the gameplay. Traps, the fireballs, screwings, odd barrel combos, wild barrels, how many free passes you got, etc.
Leave out the arcade vs. MAME stuff. Is a 1.1M MAME score more impressive than a 1.05M MAME score? I'd say you have to look at the entire game. Sure 50k is a big chunk of points...nearly a whole level's worth at those paces. But what about the fact that maybe, for example, the 1.1M score had free passes on all but 1 or 2 Pie Factory levels...whereas the 1.05M score got screwed multiple times on nearly every Pie Factory screen...and had to freestyle several of them....making jumps over fireballs...being patient at the bottom and waiting for an opening...jumping over pies to get away from fireballs...knowing to climb that ladder a little to get a fireball to climb up as well and out of the way.
Spending all that time freestyling Pie Factory screens easily will eat up 50k points...and look at all the hard work, manuvering, jumps, patience...etc...the 1.05M player had to show...whereas the 1.1M player got free passes pretty much the whole time. If you think about it, all other things equal, a 1.1M game with mostly free passes is actually easier and takes LESS skill than a 1.05M game with several forced freestyle rivet/PF screens.
I've brought this up in other posts before...sure there is an official scoreboard and all the scores are ranked based on score alone...but that doesn't mean one player is better than the other player right below him...and vice versa.
I've also said something along these lines before...I'd really like to see Vincent for example, play through Hank's world record game. Not knowing it was in fact the same exact game, same fireball movements, same exact wild barrels, same exact number of free passes...and see if he would get the same score, worse, or better.
It's a shame this is essentially impossible, for many reasons, but I feel that's the only 100% fair way to really tell if one player is "better" than another. The game is so random, the difficulty varies largely from game to game.
I mean if you really think about it...in the end, once someone gets that 1.2M game or more...it's going to happen on a relatively "easy" game...meaning they won't get screwed much at all on any PF or Rivet screens...because the minute you start having a 'difficult' game, you're losing tons of points on these screens...getting trapped or delayed on rivets and PF screens multiple times and having to freestyle, you lose thousands of points every time that happens...but these are the games that really seperate the men from the boys. I also think it's the most fun when you have to freestyle...even though you're losing thousands of points, it's cool to make it through alive = )
If someone gets 1.2M+ on Donkey Kong, will that really mean they're the best Donkey Kong player?
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What would happen if Joe Smith the golfer shot a 67 at Agusta, proved he was as good as the best golfers in the world...but didn't want to go through the process of getting his PGA card, didn't want to go through Q school, didn't want to properly qualify and play in live tournaments...just skip it all and expect the PGA to allow him to play with all the other people that went through all the extra trouble, followed the rules, traveled to events, paid their dues and fees...etc.
https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=323.msg7044#msg7044 (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=323.msg7044#msg7044)
Right, haha, you said it, thanks = )
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What would happen if Joe Smith the golfer shot a 67 at Agusta, proved he was as good as the best golfers in the world...but didn't want to go through the process of getting his PGA card, didn't want to go through Q school, didn't want to properly qualify and play in live tournaments...just skip it all and expect the PGA to allow him to play with all the other people that went through all the extra trouble, followed the rules, traveled to events, paid their dues and fees...etc.
https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=323.msg7044#msg7044 (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=323.msg7044#msg7044)
Right, haha, you said it, thanks = )
Great minds think alike....
It's really just like any other consumer product really, if you don't like the construction, the rules, the price, the travel, the organizers, whatever the case may be, don't consume the product...I don't know why a restaurant near me continues to put rosemary on their fries, I don't really care what the reason is and who decided why they did it, I just don't eat there....it's busy so I guess plenty of people do and that's fine too, it's not for me though. I don't get why an explanation is desired so badly. I don't like the way Alpiger runs his tournaments, I wasn't at the last 2, I don't ask him for explanations because it's his tourney he can run it however he wants, likewise, I don't have to go play or agree to his rules. It certainly won't stop me from playing in other events or playing (perhaps even competing on) the games he features in his tournaments in separate arenas either.
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[The Kong Off] needs a guy like [Richie], who will say, ''Look, this is the way we're gonna do it. This is the rule, and if you don't like it, [you can s___ my d__ off.]'' You've got to have that. lf you didn't have that in the NFL, who'd win? How do you declare a champion unless there are rules? And if you break 'em, you lose. - Steve Sanders
More seriously, the transition DOES take time. Even Jeff Willms practiced on a control panel before coming to the Kong Off. Of the main competitors I don't think anyone has ever showed up at the KO completely blind to a Nintendo joystick.
The other issue is live vs tighty whitey scores. I personally prefer to play in my tighty whities... actually I'm more of a boxers person. I was "forced" to learn to adapt because people wanted to see me play. Fortunately that transition for me was a bit easier but that was not immediate either. KO1 qualification started out as 900K LIVE/Arcade only scores. Indeed, this most closely resembles the KO environment. However this would worsen the problem of accessibility. Ask Vincent Lemay why he was playing sub 1M pace at KO2 when just a few days later he was 2700 points shy of the WR.
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I've said it before about how MAME will give a certain % higher score due to the controls. And I'm not making excuses, but I feel I would already have my 1.1M game on arcade (or at least 1.08M) had I not had the arcade control screwings I've had lately, but that is my own problem to be fixed.
But, back to MAME, even though the sitting arrangement/controls/viewing angle may all be more confortable, to play at the level Phil has been playing is all reflexes and decision making, and that transfers directly into the arcade machine. So, I guess I agree that if it was a low million game on MAME then, sorry. But, given where he brought his score up to and how he's playing now, I dont' think he should be left out.
Now, you may say, OK, we let this guy in, what about the next MAME player? If you ask me on a conditional criteria, TOP 12 arcade in the contest or if all you can show me is MAME then (MAME: Beat Billy Mitchell and Steve Wiebe, or basically 1.065M or greater for MAME entry.)
This only now really affect one player since Robbie is in, I'm sure they are taking his arcade score.
However, I do respect the final decision if it's final on TOP 12 arcade only. It's been known, so it's not like it just came up.
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[The Kong Off] needs a guy like [Richie], who will say, ''Look, this is the way we're gonna do it. This is the rule, and if you don't like it, [you can s___ my d__ off.]'' You've got to have that. lf you didn't have that in the NFL, who'd win? How do you declare a champion unless there are rules? And if you break 'em, you lose. - Steve Sanders
More seriously, the transition DOES take time. Even Jeff Willms practiced on a control panel before coming to the Kong Off. Of the main competitors I don't think anyone has ever showed up at the KO completely blind to a Nintendo joystick.
The other issue is live vs tighty whitey scores. I personally prefer to play in my tighty whities... actually I'm more of a boxers person. I was "forced" to learn to adapt because people wanted to see me play. Fortunately that transition for me was a bit easier but that was not immediate either. KO1 qualification started out as 900K LIVE/Arcade only scores. Indeed, this most closely resembles the KO environment. However this would worsen the problem of accessibility. Ask Vincent Lemay why he was playing sub 1M pace at KO2 when just a few days later he was 2700 points shy of the WR.
That's all fine and good but what are we going to do about the rosemary fries?
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The rosemary fries are good...just pick the rosemary off...it adds good flavor/aroma.
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The rosemary fries are good...just pick the rosemary off...it adds good flavor/aroma.
I've been practicing on regular fries all my life...I'll need time to adjust.
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I'd like to address the "Dean and Jeff were allowed" argument. Even though it has been addressed clearly in the case of Dean (he came to Richie's arcade on the recommendation of top arcade players and delivered the goods) I think there is another angle to consider.
There is an exception to every rule, and it is Dean. The extraordinary intensity with which he plays mame, his super-human dedication and sacrifice, were the catalysts for a transfiguration that occured within his being, causing him to become, as Triforce would say, Godlike.
While you may think this gives you hope - that by playing mame until your synapses fuse and you start to sound like Jeff Goldblum in some mystery thriller movie, standing in front of pegboards and whiteboards filled with computer printouts and calculus problems, connecting the dots to a great conspiracy - that you, too might activate the molecular process that he has undergone, think again: for the cosmic laws governing the morphogenic field dictate that in this universe, there can be only one. Someone already won the space race. And Dean-o was his mame-o.
What about Jeff Willms you say? Different story entirely. He was bitten by a radioactive piranha plant while playing one of those insane Japanese Super Mario World hacks.
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Leave out the arcade vs. MAME stuff. Is a 1.1M MAME score more impressive than a 1.05M MAME score? I'd say you have to look at the entire game. Sure 50k is a big chunk of points...nearly a whole level's worth at those paces. But what about the fact that maybe, for example, the 1.1M score had free passes on all but 1 or 2 Pie Factory levels...whereas the 1.05M score got screwed multiple times on nearly every Pie Factory screen...and had to freestyle several of them....making jumps over fireballs...being patient at the bottom and waiting for an opening...jumping over pies to get away from fireballs...knowing to climb that ladder a little to get a fireball to climb up as well and out of the way.
Spending all that time freestyling Pie Factory screens easily will eat up 50k points...and look at all the hard work, manuvering, jumps, patience...etc...the 1.05M player had to show...whereas the 1.1M player got free passes pretty much the whole time. If you think about it, all other things equal, a 1.1M game with mostly free passes is actually easier and takes LESS skill than a 1.05M game with several forced freestyle rivet/PF screens.
Here is the thing. You definitely have a vested interest in this. You are 14th all time, and most likely Steve Sczerby is not playing, and if Phil's score were to be eliminated you would get into the 12th spot. I do think that if you don't up your score other Arcade players will pass you, and this will become a moot point for you. Still here is the question you need to ask yourself. Do you believe that if you were still on the bubble that you deserve to be in the Kong Off over Phil Tudose?
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Not sure how your question has anything to do with the friendly score difficulty discussion.
I think right now I'm 9th on the official arcade scoreboard...soon to be 10th once Steve Wiltshire's new score gets verified.
Robbie's score should be accepted and verified as well, putting him at 11'th and if Kyle's latest score is verified he will be 12'th.
So if you'd like you should ask Kyle that question, but I doubt anyone wants to start getting personal...so odds are questions like that won't get the response you might be looking for.
In the end, it doesn't matter what I might say anyhow...since it is Jordan/Richie's event. I just enjoy the competition and friends I have met along the way. Getting to go to the event, regardless of being in the top 12 or not (I traveled to Denver from Michigan last year, played on a wild card machine, and had a blast), is an added bonus.
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I must have missed that about Steve Wilt's new score, what is it?
If anything, I'm on the bubble, because it's yet to be known if Kyle is submitting that game. And since this is TG scores, my 1.015M is the one used, not my 1.026M, which also eliminates Tim Szcerby from contention because his score is not on TG's list.
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Steve Wilt's new score is like 1.052M if I remember correctly. It was posted on Facebook but that's the only place I saw it. Joel West posted it in fact. I don't know how he found out about the score unless he was at his house or something because I don't think Steve streams...
Edit: I found the post, it says he got 1,058,200 on July 25th.
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Wow, that's a solid score. Not sure how I missed that.
I need to get back into playing again soon, been a rough week.
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I think that was a joke (could be wrong). But yeah, I bet there will be a few scores like that before KO3.
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George (and Richie... since I'm sure this message will be passed on to you), I just wanted to offer you guys and olive branch of sorts. I'll be in Fairfield this weekend, and I'd love to have a peaceful conversation with you guys about the KO3 while I'm there, if we could. I feel as though most of my frustration is just a lack of a clear understanding of your guy's (TG's) thought process. Lots of people have been postulating motives, but I'd love to hear it from you all directly.
I love you guys and what you have been building, I just get hung up on some things sometimes, and I feel it has a lot to do with me not getting the same amount of time to interact with you guys the way you guys do amongst yourselves. I watch arcade culture and I wish I was there with you guys, but I'm not, so when things I disagree with pop up, it may just be the case due to lack of information, and I am constrained, in a way, of immediately getting my questions answered.
All this to say, I won't be going down to Fairfield to cause bad blood or anything. I wanna be a friend to you guys and TG and help out, likewise, in popularizing classic gaming in the Midwest as best I can. I'm actually mainly going to the Fairfield event (like always) since I just want another chance to hang out with my CAG friends! and it happens to be one of the only events that is CAG related that is happening (relatively) close to where I live.
Hope to see you there!
Peace. -Mitch
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That's all fine and good but what are we going to do about the rosemary fries?
I am a French Fry Nazi and I make the rules.
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I think that was a joke (could be wrong). But yeah, I bet there will be a few scores like that before KO3.
Oh really? It seemed legit to me...because there were like 20 people that said congrats...and then Steve was saying thank you and everything, so I don't think it was a joke, but maybe it was. I did find it kinda odd that Joel West posted it on Facebook and not Steve W. himself. Guess we will see.
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It's legit, I congratulated Steve on it yesterday and he thanked me.
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Congratulations, Steve!
That was a rather quiet development for such a major achievement. Then again, according to his profile his most recent forum activity was more than a month ago.
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congrats, steve! great stuff
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Back to topic. So whenever I begin to speculate as to how Richie and George feel about this issue, I will think, "Suck my dong off." If I'm interpreting this incorrectly, feel free to offer assistance. Our cults appear to remain at odds.
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Jason, we were having a laugh at 8 in the morning when we wrote that lyric, just spontaneous fun. Don't take it seriously. I don't want any mame players to suck my dong off. None that I can think of at least.
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Okay, George, point taken. I accept your role as Discordian demigod of DKF. If by some miracle I make it to the Kong Off 3, it'd be cool to see you play some Super-Pac.