Donkey Kong Forum
High Score Lists => Donkey Kong High Score Lists => Topic started by: mrvaya on July 03, 2016, 07:22:02 am
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Hi all
John (Sock Master) have made great contributions to the world of Donkey Kong since entering this forum and is especially known for making Dk Remix. His latest work include a "tournament edition" of Donkey Kong (original gameplay with a pace calculator and stats between the screens).
I think that all scores by this rom should be accepted on DKF for both mame and arcade submissions (up and coming for remix pcbs) as it makes it very easy and enjoyable for all to "pop in" and follow peoples games and quickly get an overview of the start, pace, deaths on which boards and so. I think it will help making the community grow if the streams are more user/viewer friendly - and more people understand whats going on.
What do you think... yes or no?
Latest version of the pace rom is available for mame here: https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=1642.msg28462;topicseen#msg28462 (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=1642.msg28462;topicseen#msg28462)
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I am voting yes... John made no changes to the game itself beyond the pace and level sizes. This is as simple of a decision as allowing d2k submissions. Jry might want to consider adding a symbol next to games played with this rom, however.
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So we're considering accepting scores from a modified ROM that none of the current submissions on the board had access to?
This is not as simple of a decision as allowing D2K submissions. D2K loads a supposedly unmodified dkong rom ... this is a modified ROM. We're talking apples and oranges.
For pace on MAME, you can stream with Pauline and still use an unmodified US Set 1 rom. On arcade, there are a variety of calculators and charts that can be used that are just as descriptive, if not more so, than the modified ROM's metrics.
It would be crazy to accept this ... I'm voting no.
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The trainer is very cool but scores should not be accepted. I'm with Wes.
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So we're considering accepting scores from a modified ROM that none of the current submissions on the board had access to?
Well the gameplay is exactly the same and the alterations only have to do with stats that wont give you any kind of advantage over those who did not had access to this rom. Its like playing the original rom with the old Pauline pace program running at the same time and showing info for the viewers. We never had any problems with that?
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To clarify, we're not talking about accepting DK Trainer scores. The trainer is a different ROM set with trainer functions and additional displays to assist the player, so that one is an obvious "No" for accepting scores.
All the DK Pace ROM does is show the pace in place of the high score, and a pace chart over the 'How High' screen between stages. It does not do or have any functions that could aid or assist the player in any way.
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This poll is strictly for the 'tournament' version of the game, rather than the trainer. The trainer should absolutely not be allowed, due to the reading of the ram addresses and other hints this version gives you. The tournament rom that sockmaster created is exactly the same as US set 1, excluding the fact that pace is displayed in between screens. Unless there were other changes I do not know about, how can we allow '60 in 1' multigame submissions which include slightly inaccurate emulation, and not this? Allowing this version to be used would be largely beneficial to the Kong Off and other large venues in which the spectator may not be able to tell the difference between one play style and another.
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60-in-1 scores are not marked on the HSL as Arcade or MAME. They're marked as JAMMA. This is, again, an apples and oranges argument. The 60-in-1 board doesn't ADD functionality to the game. The only thing it changes is the title screen text.
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60-in-1 scores are not marked on the HSL as Arcade or MAME. They're marked as JAMMA. This is, again, an apples and oranges argument. The 60-in-1 board doesn't ADD functionality to the game. The only thing it changes is the title screen text.
As said in the shoutbox, both D2K and remix add freeplay to the original game. This is an entirely new functionality that was never intended in the original game. And I can say for sure, there have been 'freeplay scores' accepted to the HSL. Unless we are holding two different standards, tournament edition scores should be accepted.
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Arguing that free play is on the same scope as something like this is silly, but I also philosophically believe that if D2K and Remix modify the dkong roms in any way, they should not be accepted either. We only recently learned that D2K completely bypasses the onboard dkong roms and uses its own... if we had known that years ago I have a feeling those scores wouldn't have been accepted.
That's beside the point though -- two wrongs don't make a right.
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Pace is not that difficult to calculate in your head. Once you are familiar with the formula and are familiar with what level scores equal what pace, it only take a few seconds at the end of each level to roughly figure what your pace is.
Example with a 120 start you need roughly 57.5 per level for 1.1m. If you score 54k on a level you fell behind. If you scored 61k you are ahead. Roughly every +1k on a level is another 17k for your pace.
The formula I use is:
Pace = Start + ((combined lvl scores - deaths / #lvls) * 17) + deaths
Maybe it looks complicated but in the end you just need to be familiar with what a 55k etc. lvl roughly equals out to and then it varies a bit depending on the start. So keep figuring each level score and you will know roughly what your pace is in a few seconds.
I think the best purpose of this rom is allowing spectators to quickly find out what pace a game is at. I know from personal experience that those not familiar with the game have little to no knowledge on the difference between playstyles. I understand where people are coming from, and out of principle, I would not allow this either. However, it will be greatly beneficial to the competitive environment and those who are looking on un-aware of pace.
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I haven't followed any previous changes to what was accepted to the high score list in the last couple of years, but I would hope it would be still limited to the original arcade/Mame roms. Regardless if only a few changes were made that doesn't change the game itself, there was still a modification made to the original ROMS. If there was a separate list tracking scores from John's ROMs that would be different, but allowing modified ROM scores into the main list changes the integrity of the original DK scores.
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A big "no" from the "up to 4 men on whatever settings" guy. ;D
While the degree to which it's an advantage will vary from player to player, an internal pace calculator is, regardless, an advantage. It totally automates, and removes from the player's overall cognitive load, the mathematical aspect of achieving a high score. The cost to the player's energy and attention in having to keep that particular mental plate spinning through the course of a game is (or can be) significant.
It's very surprising to see anyone in favor of this who was against something as immaterial as extra Jumpman sprites, which is, IMO, not an advantage. To me, anybody in their right mind trying to get a score with 4 lives will play life #4 exactly the same regardless of whether it's on 3+1 or 5+0, and the totally hypothetical and speculative argument to the contrary is coming from people who have no experience playing on anything except 3+1, but that's neither here nor there at this point.
Scores from non-standard PCBs (D2K and 60-in-1) are accepted because none have been demonstrated to alter the game's behavior in any way whatsoever, and certainly not in a way that actively assists the player. And while John did not alter the gameplay with DK Pace, an internal pace calculator would MOST DEFINITELY assist the player.
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"While the degree to which it's an advantage will vary from player to player, an internal pace calculator is, regardless, an advantage. It totally automates, and removes from the player's overall cognitive load, the mathematical aspect of achieving a high score. The cost to the player's energy and attention in having to keep that particular mental plate spinning through the course of a game is (or can be) significant. "
I couldn't agree more, I can't believe we're still accepting scores where players were known to be using pauline along with their emulators, tisk tisk <stirpot>
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Well, having played on a cab with no calculator, and on 106 with Pauline open, I would say with no reservations that Pauline is definitely an advantage. In fact, having personally experienced it as an advantage is exactly why I feel the way I do about this. It's not a HUGE advantage, and neither would this internal calculator be, but it's a little somethin'. Not having to keep track of what I scored on the previous board or level because the stat is right there is one less thing to think about, and "one less thing to think about" makes a difference.
I'm not saying the answer is "ban Pauline", because a no-Pauline rule would be completely unenforceable and it's too late to do that anyway, but "disallow a modified ROM with a pace calculator" IS enforceable, and probably (?) should be.
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no
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Also, just so I'm not misunderstood, I <3 DK Pace, and I sympathize with those who'd like to see it allowed (and I agree that it's really good for spectators), I just think introducing it as an acceptable alternative for competition comes with some issues.
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Just to be clear; it's OK to play with a keyboard, a ps3 controller, any size or type of screen, any cpu, at any height from the ground, with pauline running, but it's not OK to play with an original control panel, original monitor, original joystick, default image/cp height and angle, an original cabinet and a "modified" rom that is only modified in the sense that it's pulling data from the z80 and displaying it on screen? The actual game code is not changed... <stirpot>
It seems fairly condescending from my position; we're accepting (and aggregating) scores from two platforms that have literally nothing in common but the rom itself, but now we're voting to disallow a variant of the arcade platform that in no way affects the actual "rom" but does allow the arcade players to have the same luxuries as pauline users (or something comparable, without the need for UI)?
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So, had John made a plug in device that just attached to the cabinet, read the z80 and did all the work on a tablet display, it would be ok, but this isn't? I'm just trying to show the irony of the argument when we're already accepting the mame equivalent (pauline), how much more lopsided should we make it?
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So, had John made a plug in device that just attached to the cabinet, read the z80 and did all the work on a tablet display, it would be ok, but this isn't? I'm just trying to show the irony of the argument when we're already accepting the mame equivalent (pauline), how much more lopsided should we make it?
Yes if nothing within the code changed other than this displaying of pace what is the issue all? It's ok to use Wes's program with arcade or Pauline with mame but not this? Failing to understand the logic given there is already an established standard that says it is acceptable. Ethan's points are 100% spot on.
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Going off of the points above, the arguements that this is somehow an unfair advantage seem a bit weak. When dean set his first 1m in circa 2008, he didn't have access to DK Pace 3, pauline, the donkey kong forum, grouping strategies, and so on. Was his score possibly more impressive/difficult to achieve at the time due to what was available? Certainly. Do we disqualify every score done afterwards? Another poll may needed in order to see how that turns out Kappa.
Anyways, I fail to see how this is any different from that situation. The pauline program and John's rom:
1.) Latch on to the CPU to run program code.
2.) Reads the score through program code (OCR vs assembly)
3.) Calculate pace using start+levels+deaths
4.) Spits out numbers after levels.
Important one:
5.) Do all of this without changing the skill required to control and play the game.
Unless I am missing something, what exactly is different?
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I never would have voted for pauline to be accepted and didn't even know that it was. But it doesnt suprise me. All the versions should just have seperate tracks and then people can look at a combined list if they like.
Pauline the romhack is not accepted on the Main HSL. There are no rules governing Pauline the pace program.
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There are a lot of strong arguments for and against accepting scores from the pace rom. That is great because it shows that we all care so much about this treasured old game!! :)
It is adduced that such a pace calculation gives an advantage over those who do not use such one. However, quite a few of those claiming this have themselves used or still uses pace calculations while playing, whether done semi-automatic (entering numbers in excel or a program) or automatic (Pauline pace program or getting info from Twitch viewers or live audience). It is out there - it is already being used extensively on all platforms!
Where we all seems to agree is that ANY submission must be done with GENUINE and ORIGINAL gameplay. Before any further discussion takes place about approving/not approving scores from the pace rom, I feel we should conclude whether or not it is possible to verify those scores as surely as it is currently being done with the original rom. Maybe Jeremy could shed some light on this?
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I would say no. Is it possible to see what parts of the code were changed?
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Ya know, reading this thread makes me realize that it's impossible to be 100% internally-consistent about this stuff, unless you're willing to make things either impractically strict, or overly-relaxed, across the board.
Ethan's got a really good point about how, with MAME, basically anything goes in terms of the ergonomics and computing environment so long as the INP checks out. That's really worth examining. Yet we mix all the scores together without a problem because "MAME and arcade are the same", with proponents of that position simultaneously demanding tightness of standards when it comes to ROM hacks that don't even change the gameplay.
Meanwhile others are arguing in favor of a hack that does math for you, which somehow "isn't an advantage", mere weeks after chortling at the idea of playing by standard rules on non-standard lives setting (<stirpot>) out of a fear that those additional Jumpmen up in the corner would act as some magical performance-enhancing drug (yet having the game hand you a bunch of extremely useful stats would not??)
fk dis, can I unvote? ;D
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For the HSL I would be fine accepting scores from a cab with a pace hack as long as its noted with the submission and on the list itself. If this was TG I would have a different view but for this DK specific list managed by the DK players I see no harm at all.
Even if it TG I would say that as long as game play is not changed in any way (including the time between board) it should be accepted. I have nothing against fixing old bugs or adding usability features like high score save and extra men show as long as the gameplay is left 100% in tact.
-Ken
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For the HSL I would be fine accepting scores from a cab with a pace hack as long as its noted with the submission and on the list itself. If this was TG I would have a different view but for this DK specific list managed by the DK players I see no harm at all.
Even if it TG I would say that as long as game play is not changed in any way (including the time between board) it should be accepted. I have nothing against fixing old bugs or adding usability features like high score save and extra men show as long as the gameplay is left 100% in tact.
-Ken
Yeah I don't think its different than the Robotron "hack" that shows the 10 million and also the lives left plus fixed the reset bug. If the game is the same aside from basially some cosmetic changes that don't change the gameplay at all why not? It improves the original just like the Robotron change did. I do think this is 100% different than the 6+1 discussion. Knowing your pace is not a hard thing to do and I pretty much know exactly where i am anymore so it really doesn"t "help" me. Heck hank and everyone was putting a "pace chart" on the cab so how is that different? Computing pace can be done a bunch of ways that are considered "ok" and this 100% should be allowed IMO.
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I don't think the fact that it shows pace is the unfair advantage, even though some may see it that way. The problem I have is simple, its a modified ROM. To the average person, how do they know something else wasn't changed by even a slight percentage of what is noticed. There's no simple way other than those who can read and identify the whole code to verify it. To me I'd like to keep the main high score list with as close as possible as the TG list was maintained.
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I voted "no" mainly because I'd like to have the parts of the code that were changed examined by a 2nd (and, perhaps, a 3rd) party first and confirmed to have no meaningful effect on the gameplay (I note meaningfulness because I'd assume that D2K boards technically require electrons to travel a few more mm, but create no meaningful change in the game, imho). As Ken noted, it's also important that the time in-between boards is the same as well.
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Many intriguing questions. Many good points. It seems in this discussion that whether any modified rom should be allowed is the major issue. To date it has not been allowed. Do we say no simply on principle that anything modified, whether cosmetic or not, is not "US Set 1" as it was originally released and therefore should not be used? There is a strong argument for this position. When I wrote "the ROMs must be US Set 1" it was written indicating the original code with no alterations in game play. That way the list was intended to only track a single code that is identical in all respects from the first line to the very last. That is its original intent. While we did not have such a rom with minor cosmetic changes such as this at that time means that it is not explicitly excluded, but yet its rejection is implied in the intent of the rule.
It was certainly intended to exclude US Set 2 which is different in the game code itself and hence its exclusion because the game play is altered. So far the annotations included on the HSL only denote hardware and source of video or inp files. The HSL has not included any altered rom files. While there is certainly a difference between US Set 1 and US Set 2, from US Set 1 to modified US Set 1, since one changes the game code and the other is a cosmetic difference, should we ever allow any modified rom at all? Obviously Pauline is yet another case but here the graphical interface between player and game is not absolutely the same as Jumpman and is part of the game play although the functionality of the game is unaltered.
I think that the scale can be tipped in favor of its acceptance with annotation on HSL that said modified rom was used if we could have absolute certainty that game play is not influenced at all. While the way the game normally functions may not be changed, does the modified rom influence RNG, the timing between boards, etc, so that the outcome is different than it otherwise would have been, although within the limits and terms of the processing code. Willms once noticed that if you finished the barrel board timed with the flashing 1Up that it would eliminate the delay in the 5th fireball. At least this is how I remembered it, and assuming that this idea is still valid, would this still work on the modified rom? Is the cutscreen still the same set of frames and no lag or extra stress placed upon the Z80 would have influence outcome in anyway?
There are very few people who understand Assembly and can verify with absolute certainty that there never will be found some anomalous, unintended result. No one knew that NES Jaws begins to function differently at 10 million points until one actually achieved that score. While I don't think there is anyone who questions the competency and integrity of the one who modified the rom, unless the community agrees very strongly (perhaps unanimously?) with one perspective or another it should not be allowed for the time being but the discussion should continue.
While the HSL has functioned with normative and auxiliary rules, it has become clear that in certain ways the sense of the normative rules, or at least some of them, has taken on a more absolute character in how they are generally applied such as the 3+1 setting. (Thanks for Jeremy for this insight) And perhaps the same can be said of a strict interpretation of "the ROMs must be US Set 1" to mean nothing short of a single code that is identical in all respects from the first line to the very last.
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If someone were to complete a barrel board on a certain frame of the flashing 1UP, the fireball spawn timing on the following rivets board would be the same between both normal DK and Pace ROM sets.
In-game timing will be the same. The Z80 does take a little bit of processing time to draw the pace chart onto the "how high" screen, but the code also shortens the delay timer for how long that screen stays up so the timing from screen to screen stays the same.
The RNG does not change in character, it generates exactly as random as before - but random on DK is a little special.. it's impossible to prove that there is zero effect on the random generator. If you took the DK ROMs, and replaced one "JP (address)" (that actually gets executed) with a "JR (address)" and even though both opcodes perform the same operation (jump to an address) the difference would cause an .INP file saved from one to desync when played on the other in MAME... even though there would be no actual logic difference between both of those ROMs.
Similarly, the minor differences in clock crystals and other components from DK PCB to DK PCB also means no two DK PCB sets could ever spew out exactly the same sequence of random numbers, from fresh power up or not.
Anyway, what I'm saying is that random is still totally random but this is something that can't be demonstrably proven. The only way to get a consensus would be for enough people to play and see that they have the same proportion of good and/or bad randomness as they normally do.
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I'd probably be more inclined to accept submissions from the Pace ROM if it were open source.
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Here is what i know.
1) pauline pace program is undetectable. it is an advantage, but we can't possibly know.
2) pace rom supposedly doesn't affect gameplay.
therefore there should be no difference between the two.
Therefore a test. record an imp on one, and play it back on the other. it should sync, if the two are truly identical.
if playback syncs between the two, then there is no change, and it should be allowed. if it dos not sync, then it dose affect gameplay, and scores with it are not comparable to pauline assisted scores.
If it does sync, then it's possible to just convert the inp and play it back without pace anyway, making it just as undetectable.
Sorry for being late to the party.