Premise: Tim, I have not offered any defense for the KOK or Steve Wiebe in the sense that I support deliberate inaccuracies. The film was couched in the theme that no one had beaten the 1982 score, and that Steve was the first to accomplish this. This is in fact your story. At least this aspect of it. And I am well aware of your accomplishment on the TG scoreboard. I think that if the film was styled after Billy’s 933K game that it would have been more accurate and serve as a better representation of reality. In fact, I believe that all those players’ quotations about Billy’s score during and after the Funspot tournament was concerning Billy’s 933K game.
Corey’s Original post: I premise my response with the fact that I have read Chris' post and now Tim's. Tim, I think that Chris' use of quotes from the KOK was only to set up the question of why people would consider Billy Mitchell as the champion, and to show how it is possible that more blame could be placed upon those who made those statements and not as much upon the producers. You seem to be arguing with Chris as if he was using these quotes as proof that your score did not exist, or some similar case. In the light of this fact, I really don't see any of your arguments to really mean anything other than that you disagree with what those people said.
Tim’s Reply: So my "factual argument" and proof to this day that I had beat Billys 1982 record first and bested Steve W. on this gaming accomplishment by a few years and that was later used in favor of and wrongfully exploited by Steve W. in KOK means nothing?
Your going to ignore this crucial fact and TGs own documentation?
Your going to Ignore the fact that KOK contains inaccurate info reguarding the historical timeline of DK scoring and still defend KOK as a "documentary"?
Corey’s Clarification: In this section, I only suggest what I think is Chris’ intent with his quotations. I do not deny nor confirm his position. Nor do I deny the fact of your officially accepted score in 2000. After further reflection, I have come to the opinion that the players’ comments about Billy’s score and him being the champion at the funspot tournament was referring to the 933K game but are put in a context to look like it was referring to Billy’s 874,300 game through editing.
Corey’s Response:
1) I agree that your official TG score was the first to officially beat Billy Mitchell’s score of 874,300 verified on August 13th 1982. However, it is my personal opinion that you were not the first person to actually beat Billy’s score. I must emphasize that I do not think that this opinion or Steve’s testimony concerning his own scores justify omitting your name from the KOK. It would be interesting to find out when Steve purchased his machine off ebay and in relation to his 947,200 game on June 30, 2003.
2) I am not ignoring that you have the first officially recognized score… and that it was verified by TG and to this day remains upon the score list.
3) There is one implicit reference in the KOK that did not need to be added which shows your score on the TG site. I never stated that KOK was a documentary in any strict sense, nor have I denied that it was in any modified form.
4) None of these questions actually address my attempt to clarify Chris’ intent with his quotations. If there is anything in my original post at this point you would like to discuss then please reference my text and I will be more than happy to go into further detail or offer any clarifications that you might have.
Corey’s Original post: So it would be your view that they were lying, misinformed, or simply ignorant of the fact of your TG score. Fair enough. I think that these may have said what they did because they knew that Billy had or would beat the score again.
Tim’s Reply: Fact still remains the same from the start. I was the first to beat Billys 1982 score. Period, Paragraph! If Billy had designs on beating it again or not is not the point. The point is "MY" accomplishment and subject material was stolen from me and given to Steve W. to exploit and use as the starting basis for KOK in which I was not not rightfully compensated for like the others. You consider this fair?
Corey’s Clarification: In this section, I propose what I think your position is. However, after further reflection, I think that a lot of the comments were in the context of the 933K game. Therefore, I could add another option here… edited to appear that they said something that they did not.
Corey’s Response: Tim, you were the first person to officially beat Billy’s 1982 score, and the scoreboard reflects this today and in the KOK film. I wonder when Billy had produced that video tape. That would be at least interesting to know if anyone has a clue. Billy, in the film speaks of it as “a score that people have wanted to see for a long time.†I wonder what Billy meant by this. Your accomplishment and subject material was styled as if it was Steve’s and it was exploited as the starting basis for KOK. I would not have wanted this to be done to me, which is why in earlier conversations with you I made it clear that I understand why you are upset, but that now you need to try and forgive and move on so that bitterness does not run your life.
Corey’s Original post: Consider the fact that Billy beat the score live on May 7th 2004 before Steve's Funspot achievement and a lot of those quotes were from people at Funspot if I remember correctly, I could be mistaken. Do we know the actual time frame from start to finish when the film was actually being filmed?
Tim’s Reply: O.K., if this is true and not just another premeditated TG sponsored Billy Mitchell covert screw job, Then why does KOK clearly indicate Steve W. is trying to beat Billys 1982 record ( a score I already beat a few years prior and to this day can prove it with the actual video I sent in to TG for varification with time date 8/16/2000 and witness at the end of said video) and not the 2004 score Billy supposedly set?
Corey’s Response: In general, and in certain parts of the KOK, it is clear that the film-makers wanted their viewers to believe that Steve was going after Billy’s 1982. During Steve’s big live game at funspot, he was at around 870K, and Brian was not too concerned about the score, but the killscreen. Steve was obviously going after the 933K score, and I think that all of the comments from players at and during, and after this tournament they were referring to the 933K score, but when placed in the context of the entire film reframe their comments as if they were referring to the 1982 score. Other quotations outside of the Funspot context can also be interpreted that way, but at some point it is difficult to explain the comments of others. If there are any specific comments in the film that you want to quote and discuss, I would be more than willing to analysis it.
Billy Mitchell: "The people who could get, besides myself, that have been seen getting to the end of Donkey Kong? Gee, now that I think about it, I don't think anybody has."
The “seen†aspect is probably referring to a live score, particularly since his 1982 game and the 933K game were live, and the only other score at that time was yours and it was a tape. The “no one has†probably refers to those who have seen someone other than Billy getting to the end.
Roy Shildt:
"That was the last world record that Bill ever had. That was the last one to go. He had five world records in 1985, he had the Donkey Kong, and then Steve Wiebe took it away."
This could also be referring to the 933K game. The “he had the Donkey Kong†only shows that Billy had it back in 1985, and he had the title at the time that Steve officially beat it with his live killscreen at Funspot.
Brian Kuh:
"Um, for years and years, it was believed that Billy's record of 874,000 in 1982 was really the highest score anyone would ever get. And in fact, some of us have played this game every day or every week or every month since then, and no one's gotten close to that."
Brian says that “it was believed†in the past tense, and the “no one’s gotten close†refers to the “some of us†he is referring to, and not just anyone without qualification.
Greg Bond:
"Steve deserves a lot of credit for that because he also... He also broke the record on Donkey Kong Jr. So he--he took two--He took two of Billy's titles, like, right away from him. And l don't mean to sound, you know, crude or anything. But he did. He did. Officially, he did."
This statement was made by Greg shortly after Steve beat Billy’s 933K at funsport.
Corey’s Original post: The TG scoreboard is only as accurate as it can verify scores. One thing that has always been true, is that the TG scoreboard is not that accurate. (Forgive me TG enthusiasts) There are scores that are not submitted or accomplished before people even knew about TG.
Tim’s Reply: This is just too bad for those you mentioned isn't? So you are again stating or implying someone could just simply "say" they beat a score based on hearsay and conjecture from years ago and TG should discredit a recently documented and verified "official" score of someone who did submit a score through proper channels? This seems unethical and unfair as far as gaming history and score keeping goes.
Corey’s Response: I am not saying this at all. I don’t think that TG should discredit any documented game, nor do I think that TG should accept a score without documentation. What I am saying is that the TG scoreboard only reflects reality in as much as players actually record and submit their scores for verification. There are a lot of scores which I have verified and are on the HSL that are not on TG. What the DK HSL demonstrates is that there are a lot of good scores that submitted to TG. So it can be the case that while one person has the officially recognized world record according to TG, another person can have the actual world record which was not recorded or is on a tape sitting in someone’s closet which was never submitted to TG for various reasons. I personally have no reason to doubt that Steve’s earlier scores were probably up in the 900K’s range and that it is very possible that this occurred prior to your official TG score. That is a personal opinion of mine at present but this should not at all upset you or anyone else since I do not deny your documented TG score. I agree that you have the first documented and TG verified score to beat Billy Mitchell’s 1982 score.
Corey’s Original post: From the sounds of it, Steve, was putting up 900+ games and yet didn't know what the high score was on TG. The fact that Billy continued to up his score, and the fact that Steve technically had unofficial records and continued to up his score makes this a real rivalry between him and Billy.
Tim’s Replay: If Billy had indeed upped his score since 1982 ( probably just another prefabricated TG screw job anyway....Rick Fothergill can vouch for this) then why doesn't KOK focus on Steve's quest to beat Billys 2004 score instead of clearly illustrating Steve setting out to beat Billys 1982 score which I had already beat a few years before Steve ever submited anything to TG? This is considered fair?
Corey’s Response: I see two questions of interest here. 1) Did Billy improve his score on Donkey Kong before his 2004 live score? I have no doubt that he did, in fact this still raises the question of how long he hung onto that video tape. It does seem interesting to me that Billy only did that score live after Steve’s 947,200 rejection on June 30, 2003. The forum has discussed Billy’s scores before but that is another conversation altogether.
2) The KOK did not focus on Steve beating Billy’s 2004 score because it wanted its viewers to think that Steve was the first to beat Billy’s 1982 score with the score he did at Funspot. Which, of course, I have already stated, is not an accurate portrayal of reality. No one denies this that I know of.
Corey’s Original post: If you saw that your TG score was taken down on May 7th 2004, and started submitting new scores and having them verified, I am sure that you would have played a role in the over all competition. And you are right, the interest grew when two players went back and forth like that. That was the interesting part. May I propose that since you did not attempt or accomplish this is the reason that history unfolded the way that you did.
Tim’s Reply: What I accomplished was being the first in gaming history to beat Billys long standing 1982 record. This was NEVER disputed and still varifiable to this day with TGs own articals and media press from 2000 and an actual copy from the video played on 8/16/2000 and always was. So why does KOK clearly state Steve Wiebie was the first to beat Billys 1982 score? Why did Steve take credit for, exploit and profit using subject material that I was documented doing first? Please do not distract with another strawman argument and just answer the question I just asked.
Corey’s Clarification: My intent in this section was to ask when you first became aware of Billy’s live score on May 7th, 2004, and what plan of action did you come up with to win the title back for yourself?
Corey’s Response: True, your accomplishment was the first TG verified score to beat Billy’s long standing 1982 record. I agree that since it was on the site and remains to this day is a good indication that it was disputed in any way as to invalidate your score. The KOK states that Steve Wiebe was the first to beat Billy’s because that is how they wanted to make the film. I can not speak for Steve Wiebe concerning his knowledge and intent concerning the film. No attempt was made to formulate an argument. I was asking some questions about the timeline, your response, and how that may or may not have influenced the situation. I hope I gave you a direct response to your question.
Corey’s Original post: Do you ever suppose that it was your ignorance, inaction, or inability in this regard that plays a role in this story as well? Your score of 1,034,700 on 2/24/2010 is many years too late. When did you find out that your score was beaten in 2004? Did you make attempts to get the record back? And most importantly, were you successful? I think that it would not be fair for you to compare yourself to Steve Wiebe in this regard.
Tim’s Reply: As far as I knew, TG was an honest and reputable score keeping organization at the time so there was no need for me to fear my accomplishment being stolen for the sake of someone else’s financial gain (or so I thought) . I was still playing on and off and scored a 932,xxx kill screen in the fall of 2005 (started using bottom hammer) but not on video. Knowing that I was documented and verified as the "first" to break Billys 1982 DK record was good enough for me.
Corey’s Response: Thanks for your response. So I understand you saying that your goal was to beat Billy’s 1982 score and that you did not have any intentions to get the title back again? I trust that you got 932K in 2005, that seems to be consistent with your progression. I see exactly what you mean. If you had the first documented TG verified score to beat Billy Mitchell’s 1982 game, then why have any fears that it would be exploited. Makes sense. And this is why it was so hurtful to you. I understand and acknowledge this.
Corey’s Original post: The Steve vs. Billy era was exciting for gamers and the growing interest exploded because of it. You were successful in beating Billy's score back in the early 80's, but you were not successful in going toe to toe with Billy in the same manner as Steve. I wonder when Billy's 1,047,200 verified on June 4th 2005 was actually accomplished.
Tim’s Reply: I was not as successful as Steve mainly because I was kept in the dark and did not have movie connections to magically open doors and cover up other scores for me and pay for travel expenses like Steve did. No matter what I scored official during this time frame most likely would not have made any difference as Steve brought his movie connections and they had their own agenda that never would include me no matter what I scored. The cover up of my 2000 score beating Billys 1982 record should give clear indication of this. Besides, at the time me being the first documented score to beat Billys 1982 record was satisfaction enough.
Corey’s Response: Dean mentioned this as well. Influence does go a long way. I am actually surprised to hear that no matter what you may have scored at that time would not have made any difference. This is unfortunate. I was under the impression that if you had started submitting world record scores, if you were even interested in doing so, that the KOK would have been influenced by this fact. I suppose I could be wrong about that, which is another reason why I raised the question.
Corey’s Original post: Also, you compare TG with a patenting office. Well, look at it this way for a moment. Let's say that we know historically that Grey (was it) had invented the telephone first, but Gram got it officiated first. Then we would offer the accomplishment to both but to Grey first.
Tim’s Reply: You are absolutely wrong here. Gram Bell beat Grey to the patent office first and was awarded the patent.....first. Grey was NOT. Plain and simple. I suggest you research your history. Both these men DID NOT profit from the same accomplishment, only BELL who beat Grey to the patent office first profited from the patent. Guess what, Steve W. is Elijah Grey! So why did Steve profit off an accomplishment I historically did first? I also don't recall Steve getting any DK score officiated before I did. Again check your history.
Corey’s Response: I agree with you that Gram Bell beat Grey to the patent office and was awarded the patent… first. I did not state that Grey had done this. My “let’s say†statement raised a hypothetical situation. What if Grey had completed his invention first, but Gram got to the patent office first. This would mean that the official invention is offered to Gram, where as the actual invention is offered to Grey, historically. This is all hypothetical just to show the distinction between ‘official’ and ‘actual’. That was the only idea that I wished to convey. You are right, Steve had not gone through official channels, and did not have any of his self-proclaimed scores officially verified by TG, concerning those 900K games. However, I am still of the opinion that unofficially and actually Steve may have been the first to beat Billy’s 1982 game. I accept that you have the very first officially verified TG score to beat Billy Mitchell. Do we know in what year Steve searched for “Donkey Kong World Record†and “saw that it was Billy’s game�
Corey’s Original post: I don't see any reason to doubt Steve's earlier scores, because it takes time to learn the game and at the point of KOK he was already improving his PB rather quickly. Also take a good look at the DK HSL, and compare that to TG. There are a lot of good scores that are not on TG, like Dean's 1.2M for instance. (Of course he already holds the record.) I think that the TG scoreboard has some meaning to it, but it is not a 100% representation of reality.
Tim’s Reply: So you say there's no reason to doubt Steves "UNCONFIRMED" and "IMPOSSIBLE TO VERIFY" previously UNSUBMITTED SCORES, yet at the same time there "WAS" reason to discredit, disenfranchise "MY" documented and verified score a few years prior in favor of Steves!!!???!!! Do you realize what you are saying? If this is not considered unfair in the history of arcade score keeping, than I don't know what is! No wonder Guinness dropped TG like it was a documented verified score! ( a little pun here Again, nice try but in light of my facts and documentation, you failed miserably NEXT!
Corey’s Response: No. I am not saying that at all. I have never offered any reasons to discredit your documented and verified score prior to Steve’s Funspot verified game. Could you show me how I have failed? Other than my opinion concerning Steve’s earlier games, what have I said that you disagree with? I would suggest avoiding the attitude of triumphalism.
P.S. The edit was just putting a space between two sections that I missed during editing in Word.
