Seperating the posers from the actual champs

[Bliss1083]

I thought 900k was impossible back then? Migh have been a million.

[Ohrami]

Pertaining to the previous conversation: The way I see it, a killscreen, while clearly a monumental step in a Donkey Kong player's career, is merely the first step in a series of many. Killscreens pretty much only require a player to become relatively skilled at the basics of the game; the complexity and depth of the game hasn't even begun to crack open when you get your first killscreen by just running boards. Reaching the killscreen usually is pretty much the end of your career as a beginner-level player.

I think that something a lot of people are forgetting is that Donkey Kong isn't really a very competitive game. On top of that, many Donkey Kong players are 30- or 40-somethings who don't really have all the free time or motivation in the world to play for several hours each day. This could explain why there aren't very many killscreens. For example: I am #39 on this website's high score list. That puts me above about 2/3 players who even have a score submitted on that list. Comparatively, I am around the top 60 in a free rhythm game called osu!; this puts me in roughly the 99.9th percentile of player skill, and that's even if we only consider active players.  Further, osu! isn't even that popular of a game. Compare it with speedrunning, for example, where even most casual players put 4+ hours into the game every day, and where there are thousands of these people. To go even further, we could compare it with the pro gaming scene, where some players put in 12+ hours every single day to practice for tournaments. In games like these, the killscreen equivalent would just be learning the basics; if this game was as popular as speedrunning and popular with the same demographic, most of the young teens playing the game 4-8 hours a day (with the occasional 12- to 24-hour marathon here and there) would get it in a few weeks or months. With speedrunning or pro gaming, these kinds of players are extremely common.

A killscreen definitely isn't to be taken lightly, but I certainly don't find it offensive or terribly inaccurate at all if someone considers it to be a shit achievement, serious or not.

[ChrisP]

Uh oh.

Thar be a shitstorm a-brewin....

[homerwannabee]

Pertaining to the previous conversation: The way I see it, a killscreen, while clearly a monumental step in a Donkey Kong player's career, is merely the first step in a series of many. Killscreens pretty much only require a player to become relatively skilled at the basics of the game; the complexity and depth of the game hasn't even begun to crack open when you get your first killscreen by just running boards. Reaching the killscreen usually is pretty much the end of your career as a beginner-level player.

I think that something a lot of people are forgetting is that Donkey Kong isn't really a very competitive game. On top of that, many Donkey Kong players are 30- or 40-somethings who don't really have all the free time or motivation in the world to play for several hours each day. This could explain why there aren't very many killscreens. For example: I am #39 on this website's high score list. That puts me above about 2/3 players who even have a score submitted on that list. Comparatively, I am around the top 60 in a free rhythm game called osu!; this puts me in roughly the 99.9th percentile of player skill, and that's even if we only consider active players.  Further, osu! isn't even that popular of a game. Compare it with speedrunning, for example, where even most casual players put 4+ hours into the game every day, and where there are thousands of these people. To go even further, we could compare it with the pro gaming scene, where some players put in 12+ hours every single day to practice for tournaments. In games like these, the killscreen equivalent would just be learning the basics; if this game was as popular as speedrunning and popular with the same demographic, most of the young teens playing the game 4-8 hours a day (with the occasional 12- to 24-hour marathon here and there) would get it in a few weeks or months. With speedrunning or pro gaming, these kinds of players are extremely common.

A killscreen definitely isn't to be taken lightly, but I certainly don't find it offensive or terribly inaccurate at all if someone considers it to be a shit achievement, serious or not.

Looks like another pejorative has been assigned to my play.  First Tim Sczerby called my style of play as that of a "poser".  Than Vincent Lemay called my style of play "A garbage game" or words to that effect.   And now Kyou-kun says that I am still at beginner level because I haven't reached a killscreen.   By the way Killscreen is not a first step, by the time someone reaches the killscreen they have made many steps.  First step is to past board 1, second step is to pass board two.  Third step is to pass the first elevator stage, fourth step is to pass Level 3 barrel board stage (First wild barrel stage), 5th step is to pass the first pie factory stage.  6th step is to pass the 2nd elevator stage.  7th step is to pass the 3rd level rivet stage (Much harder than the first two).  8th step is to pass the 2nd pie factory stage. 9th step is to pass both level 4 wild barrel boards.  10th step (And this is a big one, is to pass the level 4 elevator stage).  11th step is to pass the 4th level rivet stage, 12th step is to get 100,000 points, 13th step is to pass the level 5 barrel board stage, 14th step is to pass the level 5 pie factory stage, 15th step is to pass level 5, 16th step is to hit 200,000, 17th step is to hit 300,000, 18th step is to hit 400,000, 19th step is to hit 500,000, 20th step is to hit 600,000, 21st step is to hit 700,000, 22nd step is to hit 800,000, and FINALLY the 23rd step is to hit the killscreen.

Also think about this.  There are a small number of fish, but the fish we have are extremely large fish.   Like you said, you are in the 99th percentile for a newer game, and yet you are in the 66th percentile in Donkey Kong.  I bet that it will be a lot easier to get to the 99th percentile of that one game, than it will be for you to get to even the 90th percentile of Donkey kong.  The 90th percentile of Donkey Kong is a 1.02 million score. 

Remember quality over quantity.  We may not have the quantity of competition, but I do believe we have the quality of competition despite this being a game played by 30, and 40 year olds.  You see Donkey Kong is a game that you can play competitively until you are in your 70's.  The reason being is the skill is in your hands, and the last thing to go is your hands.  Remember a few years ago Tom Watson came within a shot of winning the British Open when he was 59!  Golf is also an extremely competitive sport.  Also look at musicians which only use their hands.  Many of these musicians remain professional musicians well into their 80's!

This is not an athletic sport, and so comparing people in this genre to people who play something like football, tennis, basketball or whatever is the wrong thing to do.  Yeah, in those sports having a good athletic body means you can't compete once you hit your late 30's, early 40's.  Also this is not some fighting game were fast reflexes are super important.  What's more important as Walter Day would say is to have a "Deep comprehensive knowledge" of the game, and the ability to act upon that knowledge.  Again, this is something that people should be able to compete competitively in until they reach the age of 70 or so.

[Ohrami]

Also think about this.  There are a small number of fish, but the fish we have are extremely large fish.   Like you said, you are in the 99th percentile for a newer game, and yet you are in the 66th percentile in Donkey Kong.  I bet that it will be a lot easier to get to the 99th percentile of that one game, than it will be for you to get to even the 90th percentile of Donkey kong.  The 90th percentile of Donkey Kong is a 1.02 million score.

This is simply incorrect. Watch someone in the top 50 of osu! (me for example) to see what skills are necessary for the game. The tools used are just the mouse and keyboard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZ1a6sZv5TY#ws
Keep in mind that just getting one good score on one extremely difficult fast map like this doesn't mean much, either. There are tens of thousands of maps in the game, all of which require different skills to play well. To be considered a top 50 player, you need to be good at every type of map.

Remember quality over quantity.  We may not have the quantity of competition, but I do believe we have the quality of competition despite this being a game played by 30, and 40 year olds.  You see Donkey Kong is a game that you can play competitively until you are in your 70's.  The reason being is the skill is in your hands, and the last thing to go is your hands.  Remember a few years ago Tom Watson came within a shot of winning the British Open when he was 59!  Golf is also an extremely competitive sport.  Also look at musicians which only use their hands.  Many of these musicians remain professional musicians well into their 80's!

This is not an athletic sport, and so comparing people in this genre to people who play something like football, tennis, basketball or whatever is the wrong thing to do.  Yeah, in those sports having a good athletic body means you can't compete once you hit your late 30's, early 40's.  Also this is not some fighting game were fast reflexes are super important.  What's more important as Walter Day would say is to have a "Deep comprehensive knowledge" of the game, and the ability to act upon that knowledge.  Again, this is something that people should be able to compete competitively in until they reach the age of 70 or so.

While I would disagree with your claim that younger people don't have an advantage, that's not quite what I was getting at. My point was that the preteens and teens who speedrun and play games professionally generally have much more time and motivation to put into their favorite games compared to 30-year-olds with lives, jobs, and families. Most of getting good at a game is just putting in a lot of time, and if you don't have that, you won't ever get skilled.

By "not very competitive", I only meant it in the sense that there isn't a whole lot of back and forth between record holders, and there aren't a whole lot of players involved in it. The former would mean it is competitive among the elite players; the latter would mean it is competitive in the sense that there are many players attempting to join the elite. Currently, Donkey Kong doesn't have very much of either.

[JNugent]

Reaching the killscreen usually is pretty much the end of your career as a beginner-level player.

^this is incorrect, as a beginner wouldn't be able to make it past the L=4 elevators.  Labels suck, anyway.

[homerwannabee]

Also think about this.  There are a small number of fish, but the fish we have are extremely large fish.   Like you said, you are in the 99th percentile for a newer game, and yet you are in the 66th percentile in Donkey Kong.  I bet that it will be a lot easier to get to the 99th percentile of that one game, than it will be for you to get to even the 90th percentile of Donkey kong.  The 90th percentile of Donkey Kong is a 1.02 million score.

This is simply incorrect. Watch someone in the top 50 of osu! (me for example) to see what skills are necessary for the game. The tools used are just the mouse and keyboard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZ1a6sZv5TY#ws
Keep in mind that just getting one good score on one extremely difficult fast map like this doesn't mean much, either. There are tens of thousands of maps in the game, all of which require different skills to play well. To be considered a top 50 player, you need to be good at every type of map.

Remember quality over quantity.  We may not have the quantity of competition, but I do believe we have the quality of competition despite this being a game played by 30, and 40 year olds.  You see Donkey Kong is a game that you can play competitively until you are in your 70's.  The reason being is the skill is in your hands, and the last thing to go is your hands.  Remember a few years ago Tom Watson came within a shot of winning the British Open when he was 59!  Golf is also an extremely competitive sport.  Also look at musicians which only use their hands.  Many of these musicians remain professional musicians well into their 80's!

This is not an athletic sport, and so comparing people in this genre to people who play something like football, tennis, basketball or whatever is the wrong thing to do.  Yeah, in those sports having a good athletic body means you can't compete once you hit your late 30's, early 40's.  Also this is not some fighting game were fast reflexes are super important.  What's more important as Walter Day would say is to have a "Deep comprehensive knowledge" of the game, and the ability to act upon that knowledge.  Again, this is something that people should be able to compete competitively in until they reach the age of 70 or so.

While I would disagree with your claim that younger people don't have an advantage, that's not quite what I was getting at. My point was that the preteens and teens who speedrun and play games professionally generally have much more time and motivation to put into their favorite games compared to 30-year-olds with lives, jobs, and families. Most of getting good at a game is just putting in a lot of time, and if you don't have that, you won't ever get skilled.

By "not very competitive", I only meant it in the sense that there isn't a whole lot of back and forth between record holders, and there aren't a whole lot of players involved in it. The former would mean it is competitive among the elite players; the latter would mean it is competitive in the sense that there are many players attempting to join the elite. Currently, Donkey Kong doesn't have very much of either.

OK, I'll tell you what.  Talk the smack when you actually get that 1.1 million score.  Right now your score is nowhere near elite level for this game.  Get the 1.1 elite level score, and THEN talk.  Most likely this is going to be a tad bit harder than you imagined.  You talk about how your 99% is so much more competitive, and yet you are not that great at Donkey Kong.  If Donkey Kong is really less competitive, than that 1.1 million score should happen any month now. 

[marinomitch13]

OK, I'll tell you what.  Talk the smack when you actually get that 1.1 million score.  Right now your score is nowhere near elite level for this game.  Get the 1.1 elite level score, and THEN talk.  Most likely this is going to be a tad bit harder than you imagined.  You talk about how your 99% is so much more competitive, and yet you are not that great at Donkey Kong.  If Donkey Kong is really less competitive, than that 1.1 million score should happen any month now. 

There's a difference between competition and difficulty. Even though DK has the most competition among CAG titles, it doesn't even begin to compare to more modern games. If DK had the same competition as LoL or Starcraft (you could mimic this by incentivising people to play the game by offering up like a $10,000 reward for a 1.2m game) then 1.1m wouldn't even stand out as an amazing score. It wouldn't really matter how hard the game is, at that point, only that the score is possible and feasible with enough effort and time.

[mikegmi2]

It's probably impossible to compare a game like Donkey Kong to a game like osu!.  They're pretty different.   

From what I can see, osu! is basically Elite Beat Agents or Donkey Konga, on crack.  To get good at it, you play it over and over until you memorize the level and get fast/accurate enough to not make any mistakes.  Nothing ever changes, it's always the same every time.  It's pure memorization and quick reaction time.  Looks like you have to have really quick fingers and mouse movements to do well at this game. Just watching it is pretty cool, it looks really tough.

Donkey Kong is also tough, but from the outside doesn't look hard at all.  An osu! player would probably look at Donkey Kong and say it looks boring. It's a different kinda tough...more endurance tough.  It's also random, so you can't just memorize the game and then execute it...it requires on-the-fly thinking.  Barrels that won't steer, never knowing when a wild barrel will be thrown, multiple long springs in a row...etc. 

I am swayed toward the DK side, so take this with a grain of extra fine salt, but would a way to compare the 2 go something like this maybe...osu! requires to you move the mouse around the screen and hit keys based on a pre-determined pattern.  Donkey Kong requires you to jump over barrels and avoid obsticles a couple thousand times during a full game.  Would it be fair to say there are about 1000 keystrokes that must be executed precisely in an average expert osu! run? DK has around 2000 (rough estimate) jumps that must be executed throughout a full game, plus random elements like wild barrels, unsteerable barrels, etc.  Toss in the spring screens, and amount of time it takes to complete a full game (2.5 hours +).  I don't know, they're pretty different.  Probably for some people osu! would be easier, and others DK would be easier.

What if osu! had random elements in it?  As is, it's 100% repeatable.  You memorize the stage and execute it.  But what if there were a few random circles that appeared during the stages that you couldn't predict?  Or if a stage lasted 2.5 hours.  Would you still be able to get such high combos and 100% a level?  Would fatigue become a factor?  (again I'm not picking on osu! here, just making friendly discussion : )

Ok then lets talk about the pro scene, League of Legends is the biggest game currently.  Again, completely different type of game.  League requires teamwork above all else.  Huge difference right off the bat.  You'll never make it to the top without other good players teaming up with you to help you get there.  Games last around 30-45 min on average. The game has a high learning curve due to the number of champions currently in play, I believe 115.  Getting down to the gameplay and skills required, it is kind of a mix of DK and osu!.  The beginning of the game is kind of like DK...you have to farm minions and last hit them at just the right time to get gold...kind of at the rate of jumping barrels.  Toward the end, during team fights, it is more like osu! because you have to have quick reaction times and make fast decisions/keystrokes to defeat the other team and outplay them.  These guys play all day every day.  They're keeping their strategies on the cutting edge as the meta changes with each major tournament, champ release, or patch update to the game.  Strategy and teamwork are required above all else to succeed at this game.  Your goal is to outthink/outstrategize/outplay the other human team of players. As far as raw individual skill goes, I would say out of the 3, in my opinion this requires the least.  It's all about teamwork.

So is it easier to 100% perfect every osu! screen, get 1.2M on Donkey Kong, or win the $1,000,000 League of Legends world championship?  Probably impossible to say.  Osu! definitely requires the fastest reflexes.  Donkey Kong requires the most endurance.  League of Legends probably requires the largest time commitment and teamwork.  They're all fairly different skill sets.

It'll never happen, but I would love to see someone from TSM or Curse Gaming try to get 1,000,000 on Donkey Kong.  I bet some if not all of them could.  Who knows how long it would take them.  I'm sure osu! players could get 1M on Donkey Kong, just like I bet some Donkey Kong players could near perfect some of those crazy osu! screens.

The only way to fairly judge people's skill levels in osu! or Donkey Kong would be to start from scratch, keep track of the number of games it takes to get a certain score, without help from anyone else or any outside source, then compare the number of games it took each person...the lower number of tries would have to be the winner.

Oh and if any of you want to join me and go for the $1M on LoL, we could beat those guys.  Maybe.

[homerwannabee]

Also, one thing to take note of as well.  Remember that this game has been around for 30 years, and people did compete hard core on this game back in the day, and it seems no one at that time hit 900k despite millions of people playing it.  Also take note that we have players who have been playing this game not 6 months, not 1 year, but years.  Steve Wiebe has been at hit for over a decade.  Dean I think has been at it for over 6 years.  Ross has been at it for over 6 years.  Hank I think for over 4 years, and so on, and so one.  See that is the thing with newer games.  People pick them up, and then move on to the newer, and better things.   Perhaps 2 years ago before the first Kong Off I would have agreed with you, but after 2 years of competitive play the scores are really getting respectable, and extremely hard to beat.  It's not something that you can get a top score like 1.1 million in only 6 months.

[syscrusher]

From what I can see, osu! is basically Elite Beat Agents or Donkey Konga, on crack.  To get good at it, you play it over and over until you memorize the level and get fast/accurate enough to not make any mistakes.  Nothing ever changes, it's always the same every time.  It's pure memorization and quick reaction time.  Looks like you have to have really quick fingers and mouse movements to do well at this game. Just watching it is pretty cool, it looks really tough.

I thought this as well at first, but some people can nail difficult osu! levels with only a few tries.  They don't memorize them.

[mikegmi2]

From what I can see, osu! is basically Elite Beat Agents or Donkey Konga, on crack.  To get good at it, you play it over and over until you memorize the level and get fast/accurate enough to not make any mistakes.  Nothing ever changes, it's always the same every time.  It's pure memorization and quick reaction time.  Looks like you have to have really quick fingers and mouse movements to do well at this game. Just watching it is pretty cool, it looks really tough.

I thought this as well at first, but some people can nail difficult osu! levels with only a few tries.  They don't memorize them.

Dang really?  That's impressive.  I don't know how you would know where the next circle is going to appear. I should give osu! a try it looks fun.

[LMDAVE]

There are probably millions out there that can excel in Donkey Kong if you challenged them to learn it and stick with it. I don't for people who can press buttons fast or can control a joystick fast, its all about your brain processing what it see and thinking several moves ahead.

For example, I bet the those guys who can solve a rubik's cube in 10 seconds can do well at donkley kong if they put their mind to it.

[marinomitch13]

For example, I bet the those guys who can solve a rubik's cube in 10 seconds can do well at donkley kong if they put their mind to it.

In 8th grade I was able to consistently solve a rubik's cube in under a minute. I think my best was around 35 seconds.

QED (?)

[stella_blue]

For example, I bet the those guys who can solve a rubik's cube in 10 seconds can do well at donkley kong if they put their mind to it.

Dave, you may already be aware of this, but Derrick (Exisidis2) is one of those guys.