Kong Off Wildcard Qualifiers Discussion Thread

[LMDAVE]

1. Friday is not a Kong-Off 3 day correct? ALL 20 machines will be available for that round! Think of this as the qualifier to get into the US Open in tennis. This is a GREAT setup and I think this is perfect to accommodate a large number of WC entries that did not place in the top 9.

Well, hang on for a sec. Friday is also the opportunity for the Kong off top-12 players to to try out machines and make their machine picks also. I'm really glad they are opening up this wildcard event how they are and putting some structure to it, but at the same time there does have to be some respect for top 12 and what they have to do also. 

[ChrisP]

I'd never even thought about the fact that all 20 machines will be clear for much of Friday.

12 main competitors + 9 later-round qualifiers takes 21 DK players off the table on that day.

Geez, how many will even be left to buy in to Round 1? Nobody enters from off the street (they know better), so that pretty much just leaves the members of the community here who are both going to Denver and willing to put up the $30 entry fee. I doubt more than 20 of us, and can't imagine 30. So yeah, there will be enough machines for everyone to have a lot of time to play, and time for the 12 players to do whatever they need to do.

The line between being in the main lineup and the wildcard division is getting seriously blurred...

In fact, I have to say, it's almost BETTER to be a wildcard right now. Eric and John are spoiling us rotten.

[danman123456]

How long does it take to pick out a machine? The event is Sat/Sun why would you need time on Friday to play/pick/practice whatever? Why does Friday matter if your ready and have been practicing ahead of time? Allow the WC players until 6pm on all 20 then from 6pm - xxx its just  the 8 "WC" machines and the contestants get to setup/snag a machine. Having 12 machines sit around most of the day doing nothing makes little sense to me. Center Court and Court #1 in tennis doesn't get untouched until the finals.

Dan

 

1. Friday is not a Kong-Off 3 day correct? ALL 20 machines will be available for that round! Think of this as the qualifier to get into the US Open in tennis. This is a GREAT setup and I think this is perfect to accommodate a large number of WC entries that did not place in the top 9.

Well, hang on for a sec. Friday is also the opportunity for the Kong off top-12 players to to try out machines and make their machine picks also. I'm really glad they are opening up this wildcard event how they are and putting some structure to it, but at the same time there does have to be some respect for top 12 and what they have to do also.

[hchien]

As for the Friday night selection, I personally would not need much time, although a 1 or 2 hour practice session would be all I need to work out the jitters/get accustomed to the environment.  However, you might want to ask Jeff Willms how important he thought his Friday night practice session was.

As for the remaining problems, here are my proposed solutions:

Problem #1: (As per Chris P) The 9 highest scores are not necessarily the 9 qualifiers.

Solution #1a: Have the 9 highest scores in all 3 tournaments combined be the 9 qualifiers.

Solution #1b: Have the top 3 people of each round ineligible for future WC tournaments (effectively guaranteeing them a spot and eliminating the possibility of multiple wins).



Problem #2: (As per Jeff Wolfe) The top seed in the WC only gets his high score for 1 day compared to everyone else's 2 day high score.  This is actually a huge disadvantage.  Sunday is usually a short day compared to Saturday (to allow people time to travel).  Additionally sharing a machine with one person on Saturday is not a large disadvantage as I'm on break almost 1/2 the time anyway when I have a dedicated machine.  It's simply not possible to play continuously for that long.

Solution: Have only 7 people advance from KO3 Round 1 or only 8 winners from the WC tournaments (maybe 3, 3, then 2... would work well with my Solution 1b above)



Problem #3: (As per Jeff H) What if the 12th seed gets knocked out of the top 12 at the last minute.

Solution: Have the cutoff date for the top 12 earlier than the WC tournaments.  Now I realize many people are still trying to qualify so maybe it would be wiser to push back the WC tournaments rather than have an early cutoff date for the top 12 qualifiers.

[VON]

So the top-seeded WildCard player gets the worst possible position in the KO3?  You guys need to fix that situation.

Anyways, these new developments pretty much spoiled all my plans, and I will not be playing in anymore of these WCR tournaments.

I'll be qualifying the old fashioned way, and I'll try and do so as soon as possible so I don't completely fuck over the current 12th place.

I am incredibly annoyed that my hand is being forced.  Details to follow on my blog.

[danman123456]

Agree Hank - If you are Top 3 in Round 1 then all you can do is improve your "Ranking" for the KO3 WC division not actually change anything in Round 2. Basically your not eligible since you have already "placed" and only thing a Top 3 does is get you Prize Money. #4 is still considered Top 3 for KO3 qualifying.
Waiting until its all over and wondering if the score matters later is not the way it should work. The latest round/score should have more weight then the first does. What if Ross was to get 950/975 and then 1.05. You throw out Round 1 and Round 2 and bump up both 4th place? Then the guy who gets 4th in Round 3 gets screwed? Everyone gets to replay anyway so Round 3 4th place should take precedence over Round 1 4th place.

Agree Ross - They should either give 1st place overall a dedicated machine on Sat/Sun or you play on Sat with just the 16 (Top 7 from Friday and Top 9 from WC). You get to go first and then the other top 7 from WC start. Then everyone bleeds in based on score order and just plays on a machine that is open. I would argue that the Top 3 overall in the WC tournies are a guaranteed Sunday contestant if you want to really make these contests matter (and they should since pretty much anyone can do them). Then you get a chance to put a contest score up on Sat and still leaves Top 5 scores to duke it out for Sun.

As for the Friday night selection, I personally would not need much time, although a 1 or 2 hour practice session would be all I need to work out the jitters/get accustomed to the environment.  However, you might want to ask Jeff Willms how important he thought his Friday night practice session was.

As for the remaining problems, here are my proposed solutions:

Problem #1: (As per Chris P) The 9 highest scores are not necessarily the 9 qualifiers.

Solution #1a: Have the 9 highest scores in all 3 tournaments combined be the 9 qualifiers.

Solution #1b: Have the top 3 people of each round ineligible for future WC tournaments (effectively guaranteeing them a spot and eliminating the possibility of multiple wins).



Problem #2: (As per Jeff Wolfe) The top seed in the WC only gets his high score for 1 day compared to everyone else's 2 day high score.  This is actually a huge disadvantage.  Sunday is usually a short day compared to Saturday (to allow people time to travel).  Additionally sharing a machine with one person on Saturday is not a large disadvantage as I'm on break almost 1/2 the time anyway when I have a dedicated machine.  It's simply not possible to play continuously for that long.

Solution: Have only 7 people advance from KO3 Round 1 or only 8 winners from the WC tournaments (maybe 3, 3, then 2... would work well with my Solution 1b above)



Problem #3: (As per Jeff H) What if the 12th seed gets knocked out of the top 12 at the last minute.

Solution: Have the cutoff date for the top 12 earlier than the WC tournaments.  Now I realize many people are still trying to qualify so maybe it would be wiser to push back the WC tournaments rather than have an early cutoff date for the top 12 qualifiers.

[ChrisP]

This might be a good time in the thread to remind everyone that these wildcard tournaments have been, and continue to be, total freerolls, with prize money and hours of effort donated freely and selflessly by the organizers, on behalf of the community. They are a gift.

That being the case, while disagreeing, even strongly, is understandable, to disagree in a hostile tone is not only inappropriate, but counterproductive, and potentially harmful to everyone.

If one needs a few extra minutes to take a deep breath and adjust his approach to the argument such that it won't come off as an attack, I think Eric and John have more than earned those few minutes.

[marinomitch13]

Hmmm...  :-\

I hate to be a downer about something that people have obviously worked very hard at setting up and organizing, but I just think that this setup is kinda contrary to the whole point of having the 12 main players. It seems unfair to have the top 12 players earn their spots solely based upon their personal best in relationship to everyone else, and then have other people earn their spot based upon their score in relationship to a much smaller group of players that specifically doesn't include the current best players. It's one thing to earn the spots on the machines amidst the actual tournament (i.e. pay to play, then do it elimination style like last year -but even this I kinda think is still unfair to do too!), it is another thing to earn your spot to be in the tournament before the tournament even begins in a completely different way than the main competitors.

Yeah, there's a bit of nuance to how it's setup (as part of the elimination process under this method would happen during the actual tournament) but it's still a fundamentally different way of securing your own machine without necessarily fulfilling the same requirements as the top 12.

Besides, isn't it the point of the wildcard machine to give literally anyone, even the average Joe off the street, a chance to buy in and test themselves -while still giving the top 12 their just reward of being the only people with their own machine? I think the wildcard machines, by their very nature, ought to have not even the possibility of having the same perks as the top 12. The wildcard machines ought to be bitter sweet, and come with their own significant downsides -because everyone on them failed to meet the standard for having their own machine!

Again, I'm sorry I have to kinda be a party-pooper. Call me mean and hard-hearted, but I think the wildcard players deserve to be significantly handicapped (kinda like it was last year), since there ought to remain only ONE standard for getting your own machine: Get a ****ing top 12 score!

Man up, or don't, is my thinking on this matter. Don't change the rules of the game and make them different for different people.

Edit: Chris posted his post above as I was typing this. I stick to my guns on this issue though. I mean absolutely no disrespect to John and Eric for the effort and time they put into the WCRs, and I DO understand that they are a gift. For that I thank you guys. You have done an AMAZING job organizing these things. However, I still have to disagree on this issue as of now. My tone in this post, with all the italics and boldings, is solely meant to connote absolute seriousness, not anger or frustration. I merely have a strong opinion on this one, but I will not hold it against anyone if they disagree with me on this. I'm just putting myself in the shoes of the top 12 players, as well as I am coming into this discussion being the type of person that is HIGHLY competitive when it comes to serious competitions that I care about. In my mind, if we wanna keep the Kong Off significant, we need to keep the competition seriously tough. One consequence of this, in my mind, is having the top 12 machines come with serious benefits and making players REALLY want to earn them.

[ChrisP]

For the record, I think you phrased that perfectly respectfully.

[Monstabonza]

Edit: Chris posted his post above as I was typing this. I stick to my guns on this issue though. I mean absolutely no respect to John and Eric for the effort and time they put into the WCRs,

Hope that's a typo Mitch

[VON]

Agree Ross - They should either give 1st place overall a dedicated machine on Sat/Sun or you play on Sat with just the 16 (Top 7 from Friday and Top 9 from WC).

Just to be clear, I am certain that is the intention.

Eric and John are tops, and I did not intend to demean their efforts.

I have an infinite amount to say on the matter, which will come, in time.

[LMDAVE]

I'm just putting myself in the shoes of the top 12 players, as well as I am coming into this discussion being the type of person that is HIGHLY competitive when it comes to serious competitions that I care about. In my mind, if we wanna keep the Kong Off significant, we need to keep the competition seriously tough. One consequence of this, in my mind, is having the top 12 machines come with serious benefits and making players REALLY want to earn them.

Thanks Mitch for your write up. That's all my opinions were before were looking at this from in the top 12. This should never turn into a rivalry of TOP12 vs. Wildcard. The top 12 is what everyone should still be shooting for. The scores haven't changed much in over a year (Steve Wiltshire played his way into it) and if you come up short, that is cool, that they have a wildcard situation to still give a chance at it. Like Mitch said, the wildcard scores are still going up against the main scores, but there is a small price to pay for not qualifying (no dedicated machine). But this event shouldn't turn into what Chris jokingly said earlier about it's almost better to be a wildcard instead of top12.

The Kong Off is one weekend of the year, and when it's over,  we return home to our normal gaming lives and chat on the forums, etc.
It would be nice to just have fun tournaments throughout the year including everyone on the forums that we all met and know.

[mikegmi2]

I don't think it'll ever turn into a rivalry between top 12 and Wildcard.  I think it simply 'is how it is'.

The developments since KO2 can be summarized in a fairly logistical sequence:

Top 12 got all/most of the spotlight as far as the Kong Offs go.  Wildcards made the same trip, love the game just as much, yet only got to play a fraction of the time top 12 did.  Wildcards get together and form their own cool event, which excluded the top 12.  Wildcard events gain popularity as there are more people involved and it is easier to play an online tournament than a live one.  Top 12 start feeling left out, because there are all these tournaments going on that they are excluded from.  It makes sense.

I think it's only natural, and would make perfect sense, to start up a "DK Online Open"...which allows everyone to play.

It would make sense to follow the format of the Wildcard Rematch series...probably a 1 day 24 hour streaming event.

Issues that would need to be worked out are first and foremost, whether or not to have a handicap system implemented...and what would be fair.  Some will argue that handicapping is lame, but others will say...who will play when it's almost certain that someone like Dean or Jeff will probably win...and why would anyone with a PB of less than 700k even try?  But then, is it not also 'lame' for someone to win by a few hundred points because of the handicap system?  I don't know, hard to say.  With an 'open', any newcomer could come in and play...with his reported PB of say 500k, even though he maybe has a PB of 900k...and puts up 920k on the day of the competition and blows everyone out of the water...takes whatever prizes were to be won...and fades away into the digital sunset.

Personally, I would say forget the handicap system...if you want to play, play your best, and have fun.  This would be an 'open' tournament...not a sanctioned league, or intramural competition...it would be for anyone that thinks they have the skills to go up against the best, to compete with the best...in as fair of a setting as possible.  No sharing machines.  No traveling to remote locations. 24 hours of time to put up the best DK score you can.

I feel like this would squash whatever awkwardness there seems to be with Wilcards, top 12s, feeling left out on both sides, etc.  Top 12s have the Kong Offs, Wildcards have the WCRs,  DK Online Open meshes everything together for a day.

If anyone that isn't in the top 12 wanted a fair shot at competing against the top 12, this would be the only way to do it...becasue it's not happening at any Kong Off...and if any top 12s felt left out of these fun online tournaments, this might solve that issue, because it doesn't look like you'll ever get to play in a WCR tourney.

[LMDAVE]

Yeah Mike, that does pretty much sum it up.

But, remember this, the Top 12 didn't make the rules or the Kong Off, so nothing should be held against those who qualified. Once the Kong Off is over, we're just like the rest of you guys who love to play and compete at DK.

As for the Kong Off, all we know is there was this event and a gauntlet was laid and we crossed it. Then the next year the bar was raised higher, and we crossed it again. If the bar was raised to say 1.05M for KO3, I'd stop my 1.1M quest, and go for that (which is a big drop off in game play to shoot for 1.05M+ vs 1.1M+).  But the bar wasn't raised this year.

If they want to restructure the whole tournament to an open where scores are reset and it's top 12 of the year, that would be cool.

I don't believe in handicapping it at all, if one guy is good enough to win it 10 years in a row then let them have it.

[stella_blue]

Some will argue that handicapping is lame, but others will say...who will play when it's almost certain that someone like Dean or Jeff will probably win...and why would anyone with a PB of less than 700k even try?  But then, is it not also 'lame' for someone to win by a few hundred points because of the handicap system?

Place me squarely in the "handicapping is lame" camp.  Maybe it works well in golf or bowling; I wouldn't know, as I don't participate in either activity.

I'm far more interested too see how I stack up in a pure competitive setting as opposed to a handicapped one.  Putting it another way, I'd rather play "straight up" and finish 35th, than to be awarded 1st place after an arbitrary score adjustment formula is applied.  For me personally, it would be a hollow victory.