Double Donkey Kong submissions

[treborlicec]

Hi all.  I'm newer here.  DK has been my favorite arcade game for as long as I can remember.  I was going to bump an older thread on the matter, but figured I'd post a new one.  Is there a good reason that DDK pcbs are not acceptable for scores, yet crappy 60 in 1 pcbs are?  I see Remix kits are OK.  Now that John has been able to release Double Donkey Kong Remix, would DDK pcbs be considered for submissions?  It is a Remix kit, after all.  I am no elite player, but I do hope/plan to eventually kill screen both games.  Perhaps a separate track could be created, if the pcbs can't simply be allowed.  I've found some threads on the subject, but can't find any discussion of why.  Simply that they are not allowed.  I hope this opens up some discussion on the matter.

Thanks,
RC

[Hermarai000]

You can use save states in DDK, which is cheating.

[treborlicec]

I've owned a DDK for years and that isn't a feature of the upgrade.  It simply makes a DK Jr pcb play DK and DK Jr.

[Sock Master]

I don't have any authority on the matter but as far as I'm concerned DK gameplay is identical on a DDK board.
A DK Jr board is essentially function identical to a DK board apart from the slightly different sound hardware.

I don't see any particular reason why a DDK board running DK from a high score kit should be considered to be different from a DK board running DK from a high score kit.

[treborlicec]

Thank you, John.  Hopefully your chiming in helps solidify my point.  I think we all consider you one of the DK and Jr software experts, having reverse engineered both games.

Thanks,
RC

[treborlicec]

Guess we're all too busy playing Spooky Remix to discuss. 

[xelnia]

I'm out of town at the moment and will have some input when I get back. In the meantime, someone page ChrisP for his input AS WELL.

[treborlicec]

I'm out of town at the moment and will have some input when I get back. In the meantime, someone page ChrisP for his input AS WELL.

I would certainly welcome his input.  In his stickied thread regarding DK pcbs and romsets, he mentions he is not opposed to accepting scores on a DDK pcb. 

[xelnia]

I'm out of town at the moment and will have some input when I get back. In the meantime, someone page ChrisP for his input AS WELL.

I would certainly welcome his input.  In his stickied thread regarding DK pcbs and romsets, he mentions he is not opposed to accepting scores on a DDK pcb.

In that thread ChrisP mentions a discussion regarding potential timing differences, which I seem to recall seeing at one point as well...but I can't find it right now. That's something that would definitely need to be checked out. Beyond that, I'm not aware of any other modifications that would be immediately disqualifying. I doubt (but can't confirm) there are enough new instructions in the DDK modification to make a noticeable difference...you might get different RNG, but random is random so that's not an issue.

But even if everything turns out to be functionally identical to an original DK PCB, I would definitely list those scores as "DDK" or something similar. Only DK scores done on TKG4 PCBs will be listed as "Arcade" and that's something I don't ever see changing. Because we use a combined-platform leaderboard, it is crucial that all scores are clearly labeled by platform. The "close enough" philosophy is fine, but in all fairness to Sock and the other wizards out there, no one person has 100% complete knowledge on how every single iteration of every single platform works. For that reason we have to keep open the possibility that problems will be discovered in the future and scores will have to be reclassified or removed. So, distinct platform labels are paramount and everyone playing on DDKs, with kits, etc. need to recognize the potential risk.

I'll keep researching, and if anyone recalls/finds the specific DDK timing discussion that would be helpful.

[treborlicec]

Thanks for chiming in, Xelnia.  Classifying a score as DDK would be fine by me.  I just thought the flat out "not accepted" was a little harsh considering the community trusts Scott Brasington's HS save kits on individual pcbs.  Since he also created DDK, it would seem it would be accepted.  My plan is to get the DDK Remix added to my DDK, also.  Will those submissions have to have a DDK next to them or would they be Arcade classified?  Sorry for rambling, just trying to get this straight in my head.  The community allows each of these gentlemen's kits on individual pcbs, so, I'm hoping the combined DDK Remix will ultimately be an accepted platform for Arcade submissions.

Thanks,
RC

[treborlicec]

Slow at work.  I have been looking over archives at TG forums.  This is an excerpt from a thread about getting DK submission process updated.  It is from user Chrispy.  I'm not certain if that is the same as DKF user ChrisP or not.

"It's unanimous among players: there is absolutely no difference in how an original TKG4 game will play versus a game played through a DDK (other than for the walking and jumping audio), a D2K, or a Braze.

Allowing D2K would also open the door for the significant number of TKG3 owners to compete, since the D2K kit would auto-upgrade them to TKG4 code (I may be wrong about this). Double Donkey Kong would allow Donkey Kong Jr. board owners into the fray. And so on.

I can understand a rule against unrecognized hardware. But the above three kits are well known at this point, and should not disqualify anyone. I'm sure those involved in their development would be happy to explain exactly how the original code runs on their kits. "

Here is the whole thread:
https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/135294-A-Step-Toward-Donkey-Kong-Recording-Rules-Reform?p=737016#post737016

[xelnia]

Thanks for chiming in, Xelnia.  Classifying a score as DDK would be fine by me.  I just thought the flat out "not accepted" was a little harsh considering the community trusts Scott Brasington's HS save kits on individual pcbs.  Since he also created DDK, it would seem it would be accepted.  My plan is to get the DDK Remix added to my DDK, also.  Will those submissions have to have a DDK next to them or would they be Arcade classified?  Sorry for rambling, just trying to get this straight in my head.  The community allows each of these gentlemen's kits on individual pcbs, so, I'm hoping the combined DDK Remix will ultimately be an accepted platform for Arcade submissions.

Thanks,
RC

Theoretically, a DDK with a DDK Remix would be listed as "DDK*". "DDK" for the PCB and "*" for the Remix kit. Arcade scores done with game kits (D2K/Remix) get the "*" while those with only high score save kits get a "^".

The very bottom of the HSL shows the Platform notes:

Platform Notes

Arcade	=  TKG4 or unknown (some earlier TG scores may not have been TKG4).
TKG3	=  4 board set using the US Set 1 ROM.
Multi	=  A Multi PCB (X-in-1) configuration.
MAME	=  Any version of WolfMAME or unknown (scores prior to May 2006 are not 0.106, scores prior to July 2003 are not WolfMAME)
*	=  A D2K and/or Remix board was plugged into the Z80 processor location.
^	=  A high score save kit was plugged into the Z80 processor location.

[ChrisP]

I finally re-found the discussion I was reading years ago!
https://zota.org/2008/02/07/donkey-controversy/

In the comments on this article there is an RTM reply, where he quotes an email from Greg Erway. In reference to Wiebe's DK and DK Junior records (for which Wiebe used a DDK board) Greg says:

"I do remember a discussion about the DKJr. score being reclassified too and that a decision was made (not sure who the group was that made the decision but I was not part of it) to not reclassify the DK Jr. score. The fact is, Double Donkey Kong is made out of an original DK Jr. boardset. There is a higher likelyhood of differences between DK Jr. on a unmodified board and a DDK board due to that fact. As much has been claimed for DK on a DK board and DK on a DDK board however I believe someone determined there was different timing in reguards to the timer (and how long you can live at 000 before a death)."

I don't have access to a DDK for testing, but this would probably be pretty easy to test. (I believe DDK is emulated in MAME now, for what that's worth.)

At any rate, in all the years since this brouhaha, and despite suspicions about "likelihood of differences", nobody has conclusively (or even tentatively) demonstrated any disparity between DK running on a TKG board and DK running on a DJR board. IMO, since the hardware is near-identical, there's no reason to think that there would be a difference.

As far as I'm concerned, after all the remixing and <snek>ing John K. has proven to be an expert on DK on both the hardware and software level, so I would defer to his opinion on this. If he says "easy accept", then so do I!

[treborlicec]

I finally re-found the discussion I was reading years ago!
https://zota.org/2008/02/07/donkey-controversy/

In the comments on this article there is an RTM reply, where he quotes an email from Greg Erway. In reference to Wiebe's DK and DK Junior records (for which Wiebe used a DDK board) Greg says:

"I do remember a discussion about the DKJr. score being reclassified too and that a decision was made (not sure who the group was that made the decision but I was not part of it) to not reclassify the DK Jr. score. The fact is, Double Donkey Kong is made out of an original DK Jr. boardset. There is a higher likelyhood of differences between DK Jr. on a unmodified board and a DDK board due to that fact. As much has been claimed for DK on a DK board and DK on a DDK board however I believe someone determined there was different timing in reguards to the timer (and how long you can live at 000 before a death)."

I don't have access to a DDK for testing, but this would probably be pretty easy to test. (I believe DDK is emulated in MAME now, for what that's worth.)

At any rate, in all the years since this brouhaha, and despite suspicions about "likelihood of differences", nobody has conclusively (or even tentatively) demonstrated any disparity between DK running on a TKG board and DK running on a DJR board. IMO, since the hardware is near-identical, there's no reason to think that there would be a difference.

As far as I'm concerned, after all the remixing and <snek>ing John K. has proven to be an expert on DK on both the hardware and software level, so I would defer to his opinion on this. If he says "easy accept", then so do I!

Thanks for chiming in Chris.  I read through that thread and it was entertaining lol.  Let's get DDK and DDK Remix on the allowed list

[Sock Master]

I'll just post this to reiterate that a Donkey Kong Junior PCB is nearly identical to a Donkey Kong PCB.

The two boards run the CPU at the same frequency.  The video timing and frame rate are the same.  They have the same amount of RAM running at the same speed and are essentially identical in function and hardware.
If you were to put Donkey Kong's program, graphics and colors ROMs into a Donkey Kong Junior PCB it would run the game identically to a Donkey Kong PCB save for the sounds.  The differences in the sound hardware have no impact on gameplay.
As a side note, the very first prototype of the arcade version of Donkey Kong Remix before I had the kit hardware worked out was actually done on a Donkey Kong Junior PCB and except for the difference in sound it ran the same as it later would on Donkey Kong PCBs.