Author Topic: Wildcard Rematch #2 Scoreboard  (Read 91737 times)

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Offline ChrisP

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Re: Wildcard Rematch #2 Scoreboard
« Reply #105 on: March 22, 2013, 01:23:13 pm »
I think Ken basically convinced me and changed my mind on this.

Since I was defining "kill screen" as the board and only the board, I considered reaching 22-1 as "reaching the kill screen."

However, upon further thought, I don't see any especially good reason to define "kill screen" as the board, or to consider getting to the board as the key moment of significance, whereas there IS definitely a significance in playing until the bug (and not a mistake or a suicide) kills you, since the bug is what incapacitates your ability to play any further.

Sticking to that principle is important: play to the very last second, and be killed when, and only when, the game takes the controls from you.
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4 Quarters :-* - 800K Avg. Per Qtr. :o - No Restarts 8) - No Proof :'(

7/26/2013   Coin 35,946   710,800   18-1
7/28/2013   Coin 35,947   903,700   22-1
8/16/2013   Coin 35,948   694,100   17-6
8/17/2013   Coin 35,949   893,100   22-1

3,201,700: the $1 World Record?
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Jeffw

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Re: Wildcard Rematch #2 Scoreboard
« Reply #106 on: March 22, 2013, 01:26:47 pm »
There is definitely ambiguity to the term killscreen. Both interpretations are reasonable and there is no answer that is inherently correct. It is up to the community to choose the best definition based on the nature of the screen/the bug, the respect associated with a killscreen and under what circumstances it is deserved, and the objective of the game in general. With that said I think that the definition that should be chosen is that you have killscreened Donkey Kong if you have reached board 22-1, regardless of how you die on the board.

Firstly, the objective of Donkey Kong is to get as many points as possible and a definition should not be chosen that conflicts with this objective. Suppose, for example, a player has a 90% success rate at doing the back-jump over a barrel while grabbing the hammer. If the player chooses to go for the back-jump on the killscreen they get 800 points if they succeed or 200 points if they fail, an expected number of points of 0.9*800 + 0.1*200 = 740. If they choose not to go for the back-jump they get a guaranteed 700. It is mathematically the correct decision to go for the back-jump in this situation, and if they get unlucky and fall into the 10% case they and die, they still deserve all the prestige of reaching a killscreen. If you make the definition of killscreen dying from the actual timeout then a player in this situation is torn between making the decision that they know gives them the most expected number of points and the decision that gives them the recognition of a killscreen.

Also, there is nearly no challenge at all on the killscreen to survive long enough to trigger the screenkill. It's really board 21-6 that is the last of the challenges, after which the player should deserve the recognition of getting a killscreen. If a player really wanted to I think they could even just walk right and climb the broken ladder to get a nearly guaranteed death from screenkill. There is nothing special about doing that that warrants any more recognition than dying in any other way on the killscreen.

Some argue that a player hasn't reached the end of donkey kong unless they have died from timeout on the killscreen. This argument is implicitly associating surviving longer with making it further in the game, an association that makes no sense. Has a player who hides in the lower left corner until timeout really made it further than a player that climbs to the 3rd girder but dies from a barrel? Donkey Kong has never been a game that is purely about survival, it is a game about clearing boards so it would make more sense to consider the true end to be making it as close as possible to the end of the board rather than surviving as long as possible. I would argue that it's silly to make such distinctions and that all games that reach board 22-1 have reached the end of donkey kong.

Also, there's the argument that it's not a killscreen unless you've triggered the specific bug that is the cause of the impossibility of the killscreen. In response to that I would argue that you have triggered the bug as soon as the killscreen starts. The timer is actually set to 400 as soon as the screen starts, and beyond that point it behaves like a normal timer. In other words, dying from timeout on the killscreen is no different from dying from timeout on any other screen, it's the setting of the time at the start of the screen that is the actual bug. Anyone that reaches board 22-1 has triggered this bug.

Offline ChrisP

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Re: Wildcard Rematch #2 Scoreboard
« Reply #107 on: March 22, 2013, 01:32:01 pm »
Some new wrinkles there...
http://donkeykongblog.blogspot.com

4 Quarters :-* - 800K Avg. Per Qtr. :o - No Restarts 8) - No Proof :'(

7/26/2013   Coin 35,946   710,800   18-1
7/28/2013   Coin 35,947   903,700   22-1
8/16/2013   Coin 35,948   694,100   17-6
8/17/2013   Coin 35,949   893,100   22-1

3,201,700: the $1 World Record?
Member for 11 Years DKJR Killscreener DK Masters - Rank D IGBY 2016 DKF Team Member IGBY 2015 DKF Team Member IGBY 2014 DKF Team Member Blogger Twitch Streamer DK Killscreener CK Killscreener

Offline mikegmi2

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Re: Wildcard Rematch #2 Scoreboard
« Reply #108 on: March 22, 2013, 01:43:57 pm »
Ah yea I like Jeff's argument.

The bug has already been triggered so you can't argue that you need to wait for the 'bug' to kill you...because the bug starts right when 22-1 starts.

That's good, because I didn't want to have to start calling 22-1 "the-screen-where-the-kill-screen-bug-kills-you-screen".
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hchien

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Re: Wildcard Rematch #2 Scoreboard
« Reply #109 on: March 22, 2013, 02:09:02 pm »
an expected number of points of 0.9*800 + 0.1*200 = 740.  If they choose not to go for the back-jump they get a guaranteed 700.

Getting way off topic, but there's only 75% chance that barrel will control down if controlled (so it should be 0.9*725+0.1*200 vs 625).  And actually it's a bit more complicated... sometimes if you don't go for the extra 100 and the 3rd barrel doesn't control down, you can still get it after controlling down the far left ladder (I've had that happen to me).  You will usually run out of time before reaching it, but we all know the barrel timer is not regular, even on the killscreen (the board) and sometimes you get a bit longer.  If you do a back jump, I'm pretty sure you will never be able to smash the 3rd barrel if it doesn't control down.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 02:13:19 pm by hchien »

Offline ChrisP

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Re: Wildcard Rematch #2 Scoreboard
« Reply #110 on: March 22, 2013, 02:21:37 pm »
I would argue that you have triggered the bug as soon as the killscreen starts. The timer is actually set to 400 as soon as the screen starts, and beyond that point it behaves like a normal timer.

I also considered that in the earlier thread. I actually went as far as to say that when you see the timer bug out, THAT'S the definitive moment because there's nothing else like it in the game (unlike the time-out death, which looks just like any other time-out death).

The problem is that you still maintain control!

I do think "total loss of player control" is persuasive as a candidate for being the most important criteria in all of this. (So the solution to Mark's proposition is that you haven't truly kill screened until you've lost your last life to the bug, because even if you've already lost lives to it, you still have control.)

Maybe I'll just be "firmly agnostic" about it...
http://donkeykongblog.blogspot.com

4 Quarters :-* - 800K Avg. Per Qtr. :o - No Restarts 8) - No Proof :'(

7/26/2013   Coin 35,946   710,800   18-1
7/28/2013   Coin 35,947   903,700   22-1
8/16/2013   Coin 35,948   694,100   17-6
8/17/2013   Coin 35,949   893,100   22-1

3,201,700: the $1 World Record?
Member for 11 Years DKJR Killscreener DK Masters - Rank D IGBY 2016 DKF Team Member IGBY 2015 DKF Team Member IGBY 2014 DKF Team Member Blogger Twitch Streamer DK Killscreener CK Killscreener

Offline Scoundrl

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Re: Wildcard Rematch #2 Scoreboard
« Reply #111 on: March 22, 2013, 03:27:10 pm »
To quote Ben Affleck in Goodwill Hunting, I say to Ken "How do you like me now?!"
That's almost as epic a FAIL as reaching 22-1 and not getting a killscreen!

It was Matt Damon as Will who said... "Do you like apples?" and Clark says "Yeah" then Will says "Well, I got her number. How do you like them apples?"

Good Will Hunting- Apples



« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 03:33:41 pm by Scoundrl »
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Offline LMDAVE

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Re: Wildcard Rematch #2 Scoreboard
« Reply #112 on: March 22, 2013, 04:12:33 pm »
I guess a simple description could be:

What ended your game?

Killscreen or natural death?
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Offline marky_d

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Re: Wildcard Rematch #2 Scoreboard
« Reply #113 on: March 22, 2013, 05:10:45 pm »
I can't believe you guys would deny Allen killscreener status if he ran straight into a barrel on L=22 (a very distinct possibility). Poor Allen. You brutes.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 05:14:23 pm by marky_d »
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Offline Scoundrl

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Re: Wildcard Rematch #2 Scoreboard
« Reply #114 on: March 22, 2013, 05:48:16 pm »
I guess a simple description could be:

What ended your game?

Killscreen or natural death?

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Offline homerwannabee

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Re: Wildcard Rematch #2 Scoreboard
« Reply #115 on: March 22, 2013, 07:19:35 pm »
To quote Ben Affleck in Goodwill Hunting, I say to Ken "How do you like me now?!"
That's almost as epic a FAIL as reaching 22-1 and not getting a killscreen!

It was Matt Damon as Will who said... "Do you like apples?" and Clark says "Yeah" then Will says "Well, I got her number. How do you like them apples?"

Good Will Hunting- Apples

Nevermind.   Jeff, and Hank make a good argumentation that far exceeds mine.  That's my whole point.   I am the Donkey Kong ignorant like Ben Affleck is in Good Will Hunting.  Hank Chien, and Jeff are the Matt Damon character who actually know what they are talking about! :)
« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 07:27:57 pm by homerwannabee »
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Fast Eddie

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Re: Wildcard Rematch #2 Scoreboard
« Reply #116 on: March 22, 2013, 07:40:30 pm »
i certainly wouldnt want to deny anyone the credability of a KS over something so small, but the cutoff needs to be somewhere, anyway who backjumps a barrel on their first KS?  its only really relevant for bounties...donkey kong is all about risk vs reward, you should be torn between going for the extra points or surviving a bit longer, its what you did on every other board and what separates us on the leaderboard...

if you want to press the killscreen for extra points there should be a price to pay. i.e... you get put on Hanks list!

8)

Offline ChrisP

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Re: Wildcard Rematch #2 Scoreboard
« Reply #117 on: March 22, 2013, 07:43:41 pm »
All hail President Vincent.
http://donkeykongblog.blogspot.com

4 Quarters :-* - 800K Avg. Per Qtr. :o - No Restarts 8) - No Proof :'(

7/26/2013   Coin 35,946   710,800   18-1
7/28/2013   Coin 35,947   903,700   22-1
8/16/2013   Coin 35,948   694,100   17-6
8/17/2013   Coin 35,949   893,100   22-1

3,201,700: the $1 World Record?
Member for 11 Years DKJR Killscreener DK Masters - Rank D IGBY 2016 DKF Team Member IGBY 2015 DKF Team Member IGBY 2014 DKF Team Member Blogger Twitch Streamer DK Killscreener CK Killscreener

Fast Eddie

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Re: Wildcard Rematch #2 Scoreboard
« Reply #118 on: March 22, 2013, 07:58:59 pm »
it could be a new dk trend, i bet there is a bunch of funny ways to not quiet get a killscreen  ;D

Offline stella_blue

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Re: Wildcard Rematch #2 Scoreboard
« Reply #119 on: March 22, 2013, 08:18:54 pm »
it could be a new dk trend, i bet there is a bunch of funny ways to not quiet get a killscreen  ;D

Allen's favorite is to lose all 4 lives before Pauline has a chance to perform the initial pace calculation.  It's hilarious.

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