Author Topic: RTM's Documents  (Read 8415 times)

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lakeman421

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RTM's Documents
« on: August 31, 2015, 11:14:23 am »
Some of you may have known that  <Mruczek> recently joined DKF.  The night before him and I must have chatted on Facebook for at least 3 hours about all kinds of DK related topics.  He had asked my thoughts on a theoretical max for DK and compared it to what he thought back when  <Billy> and  <Wiebe> were battling it out.  We got to a point in the conversation where he brought up a bunch of documents he had regarding the earlier days of competitive DK play.  He sent them to me in an email and i sifted through them and made sure his work email wasn't on any of them. 

This is really interesting stuff.  For someone to analyze and in full detail describe the events of each game is extremely impressive.  He even counted barrel jumps and smashes in some of the games. 

The documents I uploaded are all the documents he sent me.  The scores and games aren't all in order, but they are titled to let you know which games are being analyzed.  There are also a couple of other documents relating to the NES DK and  <Mruczek>'s annotations and observations from KOK.  I hope you guys all enjoy this as much as I did, I am grateful that  <Mruczek> was willing to share this with me and give me permission to share this.  It would be interesting to talk about how he analyzed scores during that time and compare to how we do it now.

lakeman421

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Re: RTM's Documents
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2015, 11:16:47 am »
I can only upload 4 at a time so here's 4 more

lakeman421

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Re: RTM's Documents
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2015, 11:18:23 am »
These are the last of the DK files

lakeman421

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Re: RTM's Documents
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2015, 11:19:18 am »
Tommy Doyle and Walter Day articles

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Re: RTM's Documents
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2015, 03:26:32 pm »
That's a feast of  <Mruczek> to be getting on with

Thank you kindly.
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Re: RTM's Documents
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2015, 09:27:32 pm »
Hi Robbie:

     Thanks for the chat the other night, and also for posting my original articles and analyses from 10+ years ago.

     A little bit of DK history from my days with TG for those interested...

-> Before Steve Wiebe sent in his first TG-recognized DK score of 947,200 he had called me earlier at my then-published work number to announce a new DK WR. Problem was he played at the wrong settings back then...6+1 or whatever max was, instead of 3+1. A few weeks or months later, it's been so long I can't clearly remember, he called again to announce that he was sending in a new mark of 947,200

-> News of that achievement quite literally broke the TG website...twice in one day. According to WebTrends software and other indicators, one of TG's then-technical people estimated that over the course of the initial story release the article on the TG site had been viewed in the neighborhood of 40.5 million times, largely because of something called "Slashdot" which at the time I knew nothing about. But TG's site crashed twice in one day for several hours each time due to the sheer volume of hits. It's servers from that era could not handle anywhere near that kind of traffic.

-> Within the first 48 hours of the article's release, it made the front page of CNN.com and USAToday.com, and as a matter of pop culture mention of the new record was included in Jay Leno's monologue from a "Tonight Show" episode which was pretty cool at the time !!

-> I can't remember the EXACT date when TG became aware of the 947K being performed on the DDK boardset...I think it was Darren Harris who found out from someone on a forum board that I personally was unaware of at the time...something like RGVac or another forum. Anyway, someone posted that a DDK boardset was involved in the DK WR and also the earlier DKJr WR. The reason it was not caught at inception was entirely my fault...the performance of 947K was watched with the sound turned down as I had one nuisance of a landlord and I watched that performance late night, and who knew at the time how important sound was to a DK WR ?

-> Steve was called and told that a DDK boardset could not be accepted for further submissions, but I cannot remember the exact date...could be before the 985K submission, the 999.5K or the 1.006M but definitely before the 1.006M. He was fine with that as he felt he could do higher still.

-> Steve later submitted a 985K on tape which was DQ'd when consultant Chris Ayra pointed out that the game started with 27 credits in the machine thus blocking the splash screen from coming up which would reveal one element necessary for validation...whether "Nintendo of America" or something else showed up on the copyright line, something I was not aware of as a validator back then

-> It was Jun29/04 when Steve called and said a score of 999,500 was coming in the mail. He just missed the first recognized million point score. I received the tape and was writing the article when just days later, either July 3rd or 4th, he contacted me with the announcement that he was sending in 1.006M

-> The tape arrived and of course I watched it immediately, but when word reached Bill that Steve had turned in a million, that's when things became problematic. Around that time is when Brian Kuh and Perry Rodgers paid a visit to Steve's home in Washington and spotted the boardsets in the boxes with Roy Shildt's name on the mailing label. At that point all plans to announce that score were on hiatus.

-> Simultaneous to this, between early July and mid-August, a NYC Lincoln Center event was scheduled to happen which was gaming-based and one of the features ended up being Billy "revealing" the first 1M point game on DK, of 1.014M to be exact. This was a sticky situation...Steve had a submitted/verified 1M score first which now potentially was problematic, and Billy was hell bent on being recognized first afterwards. In fact on the CAG forum Steve's 1M score was being hawked on DVD before TG had formally acknowledged it.

-> According to Bill he had informed Steve via phone that he had achieved 1M about a year earlier...and that's all well and good, but as far as I was concerned, if Steve's tape was legit then HIS was first, not Bill's...Bill may have had the higher score, but Steve was first, period. Fair was fair.

-> Ultimately because of several comments made by Roy years earlier about trying to "blow one past TG", coupled with what Walter and Bill learned from initial discussions with Steve about how he obtained all these boards from Roy (Steve was not initially forthcoming but eventually stated that Roy owed him some money so gave him the boardsets which, at the time, made no sense), so we decided that after the initial egg on TG's face from the DDK 947K score, we wanted to be patient before committing to announce the 1M score

-> Truth be told, Bill had no intention of revealing that 1M score and his "hand was forced" because Steve would have been formally recognized as the 1st 1M score on DK. Those who remember Bill's MTV interview from 2000 where he promised to do the "greatest thing ever in video gaming" never found out what that was. But at the Mall of America in 2001, I had told Bill what I THOUGHT he was contemplating, and Bill told me "Who told you that ?" followed by something like "of all the people that tried to guess you (meaning me) was the closest". I had guessed recapturing all five of his earlier WR's at once, getting 1M on DK, DK Jr, a new Burgertime record, perhaps even 1M on Ms Pacman, and then one other, either Centipede or something with Pacman. But with Steve already having a prior 1M on DK Jr announced by TG, and now the new DK 1M score, Bill's hand was forced as I had stated earlier.

-> With Bill's tape in-hand, I wrote a massive comparative article of Bill-vs-Steve 1M complete with extremely detailed EXCEL schedules and more ways to analyze the game than ever before. Unfortunately these articles and schedules were never previously published by TG

     Not sure what my forum character limit is here so I'll continue in a second reply
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Offline RTM

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Re: RTM's Documents
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2015, 09:57:55 pm »
As for the "format", this was actually borne out early in in reviewing DK and developed over the various submissions by Steve.

A couple of key statistics were staples of all WR articles that we typically provided to gamers...1st life total, how fast to 1M, each game death, etc. But for DK I thought it was time to do something special. The game was finite, like Pacman, but there was no "perfect score". So the thought occurred to me as you may see at the end of my articles, what was the "theoretical maximum" for a game of DK ? And here's the though process behind the initial format which has since been fully blown out by gamers here on DKF.

1st - there was a kind of "myth/legend" about the 1st-life score after stage 2-3. Bill said that years back he had one game where he finished that stage with 50,400 points which, at the time, was an unheard of threshold. So that was my first important benchmark when determining the score. I took what Steve did and deducted it from 50,400 and thought that whatever his final score was, that difference in theory could be achieved on top of that

2nd - same logic was applied to end of stage 4-5, the last time before the format was all 6-stages per level and 8000 bonus per stage. Using empirical data from the era based on the few attempts chronicled in depth, this was the next benchmark...since Bill had mentioned how many of his own games were aborted at that point if he was not on pace for (I forget) either 130K or 140K. Adjusting for the 2-3 differential between 50,400 and the score that game was subtracted from the differential thru 4-5.

3rd - taking a simplistic approach, it seemed reasonable to add on 51 barrel stages, and 17 each of the other three board types, based on the highest validated scores from all of the combined and validated submissions up to that point. Sure, latter stages were harder, but at that time this was the inception of the "theoretical maximum" calculation so a more refined methodology had not yet been envisioned

4th - next, the concept of the extra lives, and the "what if" element..."What if someone could reach stage 115 on their 1st life ?". I thought at the time based on what I had seen that the optimal strategy would be get to 115, the final barrel stage, point-press each to the maximum possible on each life (at the time 9500 points per life) then finish up the final rivet stage and reach the kill

5th - and finally, the score possible with stage 22-1. It was initially debated between us what was possible in this stage...I forget why but 1100 points and 700 points were the initial marks used as it was not clear just how much someone could get with the maximum amount of luck.

6th - adding up the above factors, that was the original calculation for "theoretical maximum"

     Afterwards, each time a new "higher benchmark" was achieved for any of these thresholds...2-3, 4-5, individual stage types from levels 6-21, or the kill, the "theoretical maximum" would be adjusted. Thus every time someone pushed a barrel stage by 100 points that means +5100 theoretical maximum points...and +1700 for any of the other stage types if they were surpassed.

     The very first calculations I discussed privately with both Bill and Steve, and I might have even made mention of them within one of the articles. A score of 1.30xM was determined to be wildly possible but not likely...statistically no one could pull off EVERY optimal element at once...capturing all the fireballs in every rivet stage, leeching in every elevator stage, no time wasted in a conveyor stage, etc. So a more plausible 1.200M was deemed as "do-able" with some luck, while up to 1.250M was do-able with "a LOT of luck".

     Ironically one of today's calculations that I read suggested 1.265M was do-able, and Robbie told me that included the extra approx. 10K that MAME DK allows, so 1.255M for arcade...very close to my 10+ year earlier estimation !! At the time we had no idea that MAME DK offered a different point-based opportunity that arcade DK did.

     Anyway, that's the story of how the original format of the "theoretical maximum" score for DK was developed and enhanced between 2002 and 2004.

     On an interesting sidebar...

     After the two 1M scores were submitted by both Bill and Steve, I told them each between 2004 and 2005 what I thought was possible from each of them.

-> To Steve I estimated that 1.050-1.080M was possible if he learned new tactics. Steve was in my opinion a hammer-player while Bill was a jumper, and it seemed that jumping was far more lucrative that simply hammering

-> To Bill I estimated around 1.123-1.127M based on two earlier performance...the 1,047,200 that Bill previewed at Funspot in May/05, and based on what I heard he had done from an earlier live performance.

     For those who do not know, Bill's 1,047,200 performance was intentionally 100,000 even above Steve's much earlier 1st TG recognized WR of 947,200 done via DDK, so you knew coming into it this was intentional, or rather once you saw the final score. Anyway, Bill started dumping points like crazy when he neared the Level 20 elevator stage and he let the timer run out substantially before climbing the ladder and making the score "all zeroes"...the infamous glitch that was shown at Funspot since Bill sent the 2nd gen copy instead of the original.

     Bill then went from that point to the kill and only scored 47,200 more points which is ridiculously low AND he killed off I think 2 men in the process at the end. When calculating based on his other validated benchmarks this performance had the chance to be in the 1.123-1.127M range.

     On a footnote, this was the score that Walter stupidly entered on camera for KoK even though when we first watched it in the cabin we agreed it could not be accepted. Those of you who have the KoK DVD with the director comments can listen to Seth and Ed talking about how I personally reversed that score entry after coming back from Funspot...info that the average movie goer never knew but which only those who bought the DVD AND listened to this would find out. But because KoK was a crafted tale, this element was intentionally left out of the final product. Judge for yourself.

     Bill had another performance which I did not see but only heard of in which he intentionally walked away from the machine way early in the game, and based again on previous benchmarks achieved by Bill, that one also had the potential for 1.123-1.127M. So Bill was told by me that was his likely achievable range...roughly 50K more that Steve, unless Steve learned some new tactics.

     After that came Steve's 1.049M performance which is another story !!
     

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Offline RTM

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Re: RTM's Documents
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2015, 10:07:02 pm »
Steve had turned into TG around Aug29/06 a massive score of 1.049M which totally blew away Bill and Steve's own previous score. But there was a hitch...

Steve's taping of this one was seriously flawed. He filmed himself meticulously hooking up the proper boardset, and then the NEXT moment was the camera facing the game which was already turned on, and I forget if a credit was already in or not, but Steve started playing. Thus from an objective PoV there was no way to be certain which boardset was inside that cabinet.

His performance was awesome...I always said it was "solid".

At the very end, he zoomed the camera in to the top quadrant where his score was, and then off-camera he went behind the machine for maybe 20-25 second range, THEN took the camera off the tripod and manually focused in on the back of the game, showing the boardset.

As much as I hated doing it, I could not validate this one because the beginning-to-end documentation trail was compromised according to Walter's own stated rules on game performance recording.

I had the tape in my possession for a few months until November when Walter wanted that tape sent to him. He was asking me to accept the score "based on the totality of the performance" which I thought was a disservice to all gamers on all titles who followed the rules, so I refused. Ultimately because of this, and a few other reasons, I quit TG on Dec19/06.

Afterwards, Walter sent three (3) copies of that performance out to three different TG referees...Todd Rogers, Greg Erway and Shawn Cram. One of them watched the entire performance, one of them watched "some" of it, and the other did not watch it at all. Based on that, and their responses, Walter accepted the 1.049M and it was entered into the TG database.

And that's the story of Steve's final score at the tail-end of Kok !!
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Re: RTM's Documents
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2015, 10:13:35 pm »
Almost forgot...and this might refine some of what I just said in the above three responses as it was an interview that I gave several years back when everything was crystal clear to me.

Lots of good stuff here so enjoy !!

http://superbunker.com/resources/dkt/
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Re: RTM's Documents
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2015, 05:51:36 am »
Great stuff here  <Mruczek> 

Welcome aboard!  Thank you for contributing to the knowledge base; history is as important as theory IMO
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Re: RTM's Documents
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2015, 06:43:49 am »
Great stuff here  <Mruczek> 

Welcome aboard!  Thank you for contributing to the knowledge base; history is as important as theory IMO


^^^

I'm surprised that Billy's 1.014M hasn't been discussed in greater detail (or maybe I've just missed out on those discussions). Robert, do you have any insight as to why Billy didn't want that score to be officially recognized by TG, or why it was never mentioned in the King of Kong?
"Do not criticize, question, suggest or opine anything about an upcoming CAG event, no matter how constructive or positive your intent may be. You will find nothing but pain and frustration, trust me. Just go, or don't go, and :-X either way!" -ChrisP, 3/29/15
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Offline RTM

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Re: RTM's Documents
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2015, 07:04:49 am »
Hello Xelnia:

     The 1.014M was presented to the general public at the Aug/14 NYC Lincoln Center event only because of the budding announcement of Steve's 1.006M first million point score. Bill can couch this however he wants, but supposedly this is the performance that he said he talked to Steve over the phone about after congratulating him on his 1M, telling Steve he had done so about a year earlier.

     Had Steve's 1M score not made it to TG I daresay Bill's 1.014M would never have been revealed at that time.

     When TG aborted plans to recognize the 1.006M score as more info was needed (read the link I provided below about an offer extended to Steve for me to fly out to him and watch him play in person), no mention of either score took place as Bill no longer wanted to tip his hand as to the 1M score. However, as we all know, that became moot when he revealed the 1,047,200 score at the Funspot 2005 event, which I personally believe was intentional due to the score, just like the two times he beat the previous WR by exactly 1100 points. With Bill, numbers are important, beginning with how and why he puts 9 dots at the bottom of some of his gaming designs in reference to Rick Fothergill missing a perfect Pacman at the 1999 Funspot event by 9 dots. I never found out what the significance of 1100 points is to Bill, not Even Dwayne knows and he knows Bill far better than I do, so unless Bill one day explains this it's more than just a coincidence.

     There was so much disagreement between Walter, Bill and myself over "who did it first", Bill who never turned in his 1M performance from a year earlier, or Steve who DID turn it in for verification. I was all for recognizing Steve as the first, but at the NYC event Bill made the announcement of his 1.014M a staple of that show...the performance was actually playing in the lobby of the hall as people entered, amusingly on a TV set that was resting on its side as Bill's recording played sideways for some reason...I never understood the technical reason behind that.

     Anyway, in retrospect I really wish that the Kuh/Rodgers trip to Steve never took place. That changed the course of DK history. I also wish that Steve never accepted those boardsets from Ro Shidlt. Admittedly it was a guilt by association thing, or more appropriately suspicion by association after Roy's much earlier comments and Steve's own use of the DDK boardset years earlier. It's one of those moments in TG history that I wish I could press rewind on, to be honest. The way everything played out (no pun intended) was a great disservice to the gaming community.

     Personally speaking, while Steve's 947K was decidedly reclassified to DDK status, and while his tape submission of 985K was unprovable based on my explanation earlier in this thread, his 999.5K was completely viable in my opinion as was the 1.014M up until we discovered Roy's involvement. If it were not for that, Steve Wiebe would have been formally recognized as the first 1M player on DK regardless of Bill's position that he had done it in practice and on tape a year earlier. My position was that TG was about recognizing submitted/verified scores only. Still is.
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Offline RTM

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Re: RTM's Documents
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2015, 07:13:58 am »
For those who are interested in the KoK annotations provided in this thread...

If you open the EXCEL file you will see a sheet tab there called "Funspot". This contains iron clad proof as to how the various footage from the portion of KoK filmed at ACAM was spliced together. I took the time to annotate the actual T-Shirts that several of us were wearing each day, and this was written down years ago while it was extremely fresh in memory.

At the very least it helps to show which scenes occurred in real time before others.

As for the annotations themselves, the most glaringly incorrect element of KoK has to do with the Pompano event. There is one 60-second clip in the film which contains no less than 7 or 8 technical errors, all of which are well documented in my EXCEL file. If you watch really carefully the DK performances by Steve as shown in the film they are a hack of several earlier performances strung together.

Equally amusing is the celebratory footage of Steve's 1M score...it's not from that at all, it's from the much earlier 947K score when the initial news announcement broke. In fact you can even clearly see that Steve looks markedly different in that footage since it is from around 2 years earlier !!
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Offline xelnia

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Re: RTM's Documents
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2015, 07:22:34 am »
Thanks for the response sir.

My guess (and it's definitely only a guess as I've never spoken to any of the people involved) is that 1,100 was a taunt... 1,100 = 1.1K = 1.1M = Billy making a statement about a possible 1,100,000 score.

In regards to your theoretical maximum score calculations, you might find this thread interesting (if you even find DK talk interesting anymore  ;) ): DK Individual Level and Stage Records.

Using those numbers (and assuming that a score set on 4-3 is also achievable on 4-1), the theoretical maximum is now 1,621,500.

Score after 4-5: 180,100
17 Levels at 81,900: 1,392,300
3 sacrifices on 21-5 @ 16,000 each: 48,000
Maximum points on 22-1: 1,100

The recent 538 article quoted me as stating that a realistic maximum is 1,265,000. Several people were consulted by the author (Dean, Robbie, and Scott Cunningham that I know of) and I think he probably used my figure because it was the highest of the bunch. ;D

My numbers for that, quoting the exact information I sent the author:

Quote
I gave you a theoretical maximum of 1,265,000. My breakdown for that is this: a Start of 145,000 (something only 2 players have ever done: Dean and Phil Tudose), a post-Start level average over a complete game of 63,300 (something no one has done, though several players have had single levels just shy of 70,000), a barrel average of 13,000 inside that level average (something no one has done...Dean has only been able to average 13,000 barrels for about half a game), a pie average of 8,700 (rare but doable), a spring average of 7,500 (I'm not sure this has been done, but it's certainly doable by Dean and Robbie), a rivet average of 8,100 (uncommon but doable), 45,000 in cash-ins with the 3 extra men (something no one has ever done), and the expected 700 points on the killscreen (easy).

Those numbers actually work out to a score of 1,267,200...but 1,265,000 is a more "rounded" number easier to remember. :)
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Re: RTM's Documents
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2015, 01:07:26 pm »
Jace mentioned to me around 1.6M a few days back...thanks for the link !!

I do agree with the much smaller and realistic 1.2xxM score. There are so many nuances to the game that are left to chance it is unrealistic for anyone to score even remotely near that number.

On a sidebar an old TG discussion on another title with commensurate random impact, "Ms Pacman", took place in which the gamer was absolutely adamant that until a gamer gets all banana fruits awarded that in their eyes no gamer has ever had a "perfect game". We did the math and calculated that if a million kill-screen capable gamers each played the game 24/7 for around a 100 trillion years then MAYBE one of them would get all bananas (each game lasts around 5 hours). Of course they would all die long before that happened, but that was beside the point :)

It was a stupid argument then. I am guessing that most players on this forum collectively agree that 1.6M is just not going to happen, not with less than 50 "kill-screen-capable" players on record and not when each attempt takes 2+ hours to complete. It's nice to know that in a perfect world it COULD happen, but odds are it will not.
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