Author Topic: Elevator Stage, how do you get from safe spot to safe spot?  (Read 32617 times)

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Offline homerwannabee

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Elevator Stage, how do you get from safe spot to safe spot?
« on: February 27, 2013, 05:42:29 pm »
OK, after try after try after try after try....etc, you get the picture I STILL occasionally get nailed just from going from safe spot to safe spot on the elevator stage.  No, I am not talking about getting from the yellow safe spot to the end of the board.  I am talking about getting from the initial safe spot on the top girder to the yellow safe spot.  So far I go by sense of feel.  I think it has something to do with first short spring than long spring or something to that effect, but I am not 100 percent.  So please go into as much detail as possible.   Like when you start going from safe spot to safe spot, and what exactly should I be looking for?
« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 06:00:26 pm by homerwannabee »
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Offline up2ng

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Re: Elevator Stage, how do you get from safe spot to safe spot?
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2013, 06:15:51 pm »
Hey George, another good topic.

The timing necessary to run from the right side to the left side is not nearly as precise as the final move up the ladder, but on Level 4+ you can STILL get whacked if you do it wrong and a bad combo of springs occurs.

The short answer is that you want to wait for a short or at least a medium / short spring to come your way before dashing to the left -- this gives you a chance to begin your move earlier and be positioned closer to Pauline's ladder as the spring passes over your head.  One tip here is that the first safe spot is at the top of the ladder, but it ALSO includes about one step to the left.  I used to notice that Dave probably takes the most advantage of this, taking a large step to the left and stopping before looking at the springs.  This is another thing that you should use a save state for -- position yourself at different places one pixel at a time and truely learn where the safe spots are more precisely.  But, I'll say that you can easily take a step left and stop in a position that puts the right edge of Jumpman's body tangent to the left edge of the ladder which you just climbed and you'll definitely still be safe.

From there, you can begin running about half way to Pauline's ladder before a short spring bounces over your head -- if you get this good of a Jump and you began on a short spring, you will ALWAYS make it to the 2nd safe spot, there will never be any need to retreat.  However, if you get aggressive and try going on a long spring or if you feel like you got a terrible jump, you can technically "retreat" back to the first safe spot if you spot another short spring coming and you're afraid you won't make it -- you don't usually see players doing this because if you get even a reasonably decent jump you won't have to retreat, but it's always an option.

The key, just like with the final approach, is getting a good jump -- and many novice / intermediate level players actually play it a little too safe by avoiding contact with the spring in both cases.  Remember that if the bottom of a spring bounces up and hits you in the face, you generally survive because of how the collision detection works so you need to learn to take advantage of this and get better jumps in both directions.

(Since this is the Basic Strategy, I'll leave it there for this topic, but in general I now firmly believe that "timing" a "jump" in either direction is the vastly inferior approach to the Elevator screens -- I personally use techniques that lean much more heavily on "positioning" rather than "timing".  Perhaps I'll expand upon that in the Advanced Strategy section at some point.)
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Offline homerwannabee

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Re: Elevator Stage, how do you get from safe spot to safe spot?
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2013, 03:55:44 am »
Dean, thank you big time for this advice.  I will start doing this.   25 percent of my Level 4+ Elevator deaths happen this way.  I have a feeling in a short time this will now go from 25 percent to less than 5 percent of my deaths on the hard elevator stage.  Also it should also help with the other safe spot because now I will have more men to practice with.

As for save states.  At the moment I have wolfmame 106.   That does not allow you to use save states.   This is the exact reason why the elevator stage is still vexing me after all this time.  Once I get the elevator stage though, I truly believe the sky is the limit for me.   I am glad now that I did Donkey Kong last of the Donkey Kongs.  My success in the other two has shown me that with enough grit, and determination almost all obstacles can be overcome.
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Offline KIG666

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Re: Elevator Stage, how do you get from safe spot to safe spot?
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2013, 04:17:05 am »
Just as info you can also use savestats with wolf106.

Saving/loading is just not possible during a input recording but other than that you can use savestats with wolf106 as well.
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Offline Jonesy

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Re: Elevator Stage, how do you get from safe spot to safe spot?
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2013, 04:20:36 am »
This is some great info!

I also get smoked running left to get safe at times and although only in the 400k's this can become pretty infuriating!!

I need to conquer Jr 1st but i'm so looking forward to getting back up those ladders and jumping some barrels.

Maybe i'm saving the best until last?!
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Offline homerwannabee

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Re: Elevator Stage, how do you get from safe spot to safe spot?
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2013, 06:09:31 pm »
Thanks Dean for that, it seems to work like a charm!  I tried it at first, and it did not work, but then I realized I was not far left enough.  I found that having Mario's body just to the left of the ladder is the perfect position for Mario.  Given my progression, and now being able to do this in safety I have a higher chance of getting my high score.  8)
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Offline John73

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Re: Elevator Stage, how do you get from safe spot to safe spot?
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2013, 02:53:23 pm »
As for save states.  At the moment I have wolfmame 106.   That does not allow you to use save states.   This is the exact reason why the elevator stage is still vexing me after all this time.  Once I get the elevator stage though, I truly believe the sky is the limit for me.   I am glad now that I did Donkey Kong last of the Donkey Kongs.  My success in the other two has shown me that with enough grit, and determination almost all obstacles can be overcome.

Just a note on Save States and someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

In preparation for the Wild Card tournament I thought I should get a bit of practice on the elevators so I used Save States to get to the final safe position so that I could practice the final run to the top over and over.

It is my understanding that if you use a Save State that the "randomness" of the springs be they short, medium or long is now gone from that game.   i.e. if I'm at the safe spot with about 5500 left on the timer, I'm always getting the "good" spring to go on at the same time if I continue to reload this Save State.   

My point being that practicing in this manner is not, for me anyway, all that helpful, because in a real game the randomness will be different from the "saved" randomness of my Save State game.   
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Offline syscrusher

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Re: Elevator Stage, how do you get from safe spot to safe spot?
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2013, 03:15:13 pm »
As for save states.  At the moment I have wolfmame 106.   That does not allow you to use save states.   This is the exact reason why the elevator stage is still vexing me after all this time.  Once I get the elevator stage though, I truly believe the sky is the limit for me.   I am glad now that I did Donkey Kong last of the Donkey Kongs.  My success in the other two has shown me that with enough grit, and determination almost all obstacles can be overcome.

Just a note on Save States and someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

In preparation for the Wild Card tournament I thought I should get a bit of practice on the elevators so I used Save States to get to the final safe position so that I could practice the final run to the top over and over.

It is my understanding that if you use a Save State that the "randomness" of the springs be they short, medium or long is now gone from that game.   i.e. if I'm at the safe spot with about 5500 left on the timer, I'm always getting the "good" spring to go on at the same time if I continue to reload this Save State.   

My point being that practicing in this manner is not, for me anyway, all that helpful, because in a real game the randomness will be different from the "saved" randomness of my Save State game.

The random number generator takes into account input from the joystick and button, so until you move the joystick or hit the button the springs will be the same after you load the save state.  After you move you should be fine unless your movements are exactly the same and at the same exact times.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2013, 03:18:41 pm by syscrusher »
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Offline ChrisP

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Re: Elevator Stage, how do you get from safe spot to safe spot?
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2013, 03:26:04 pm »
What Ben said. Just move, even one pixel, and that will branch the seed and create a totally different sequence of springs. But it won't branch UNTIL you move.

Also, I'm not positive of this, since I haven't tried it, but don't bother pressing the 1P or 2P buttons as a way of branching it. The game ignores any currently "disabled" inputs. You can test that by saving a state at the "stacked monkeys" screen and doing different stuff with your inputs. As long as you stop before Jumpman appears, the output will always be identical (meaning that the RNG was ignoring you during the stacked monkeys).
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Offline John73

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Re: Elevator Stage, how do you get from safe spot to safe spot?
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2013, 06:42:12 pm »
As for save states.  At the moment I have wolfmame 106.   That does not allow you to use save states.   This is the exact reason why the elevator stage is still vexing me after all this time.  Once I get the elevator stage though, I truly believe the sky is the limit for me.   I am glad now that I did Donkey Kong last of the Donkey Kongs.  My success in the other two has shown me that with enough grit, and determination almost all obstacles can be overcome.

Just a note on Save States and someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

In preparation for the Wild Card tournament I thought I should get a bit of practice on the elevators so I used Save States to get to the final safe position so that I could practice the final run to the top over and over.

It is my understanding that if you use a Save State that the "randomness" of the springs be they short, medium or long is now gone from that game.   i.e. if I'm at the safe spot with about 5500 left on the timer, I'm always getting the "good" spring to go on at the same time if I continue to reload this Save State.   

My point being that practicing in this manner is not, for me anyway, all that helpful, because in a real game the randomness will be different from the "saved" randomness of my Save State game.

The random number generator takes into account input from the joystick and button, so until you move the joystick or hit the button the springs will be the same after you load the save state.  After you move you should be fine unless your movements are exactly the same and at the same exact times.

Thanks for the explanation - wasn't sure if the random seed was just generated at level start or whether it was a constantly changing thing.

The other way to "practice" that I thought of was to simply just run the boards saving after ever successful level, gives you 18 of the harder elevator springs to negotiate.

Hope to get a little more practice at this before tomorrow night's start time here in Oz.
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Offline Monstabonza

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Re: Elevator Stage, how do you get from safe spot to safe spot?
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2013, 07:32:33 pm »
Chris I have a question for you.
A couple of weeks ago we were talking about having two pacmans in separate cabs but all wired up to 1 cp to perfect pac both machines at the same time.
I was wondering if you had two dk machines on the same power supply so both power up together and both linked to 1 cp could you clear both games, basically would the rng be in sinc on both boards?

And if anyone else knows the answer feel free to chime in

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Offline John73

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Re: Elevator Stage, how do you get from safe spot to safe spot?
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2013, 08:30:17 pm »
Chris I have a question for you.
A couple of weeks ago we were talking about having two pacmans in separate cabs but all wired up to 1 cp to perfect pac both machines at the same time.
I was wondering if you had two dk machines on the same power supply so both power up together and both linked to 1 cp could you clear both games, basically would the rng be in sinc on both boards?

And if anyone else knows the answer feel free to chime in

Nick

I'm no expert on how these games were originally coded or what chips are used.

From a basic programming point of view, if you want random (well pseudo random - I won't get into the if's and how's of Random number generation on most programming languages) numbers you give your program the "seed" and then a list of random numbers can be generated from this seed.   

Most programmers, myself included, just use the quick & nasty "millisecs" as the seed - millisecs being the number of milliseconds since the system was started or similar.   So to answer your question - if it's done in this fashion then I'd assume it is entirely possible you could do exactly what you've suggested.

The main problem I see is this, computers chips are pretty complex little things - I'd imagine one PCB is not 100% identical to the next, so chances of both machines starting up at exactly the same millisecond (if that's what they use as part of the random seed) then it would be unlikely.   

I'm rather crap at Pac-Man, but my understanding is that it isn't (so) random in the sense that DK is, so this wouldn't be an issue.

That's my 2 cents anyway.
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Offline ChrisP

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Re: Elevator Stage, how do you get from safe spot to safe spot?
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2013, 08:46:59 pm »
Chris I have a question for you.
A couple of weeks ago we were talking about having two pacmans in separate cabs but all wired up to 1 cp to perfect pac both machines at the same time.
I was wondering if you had two dk machines on the same power supply so both power up together and both linked to 1 cp could you clear both games, basically would the rng be in sinc on both boards?

No. The reason is that the arcade machine never boots from the same initial state. I'm not sure how it works, but each boot is unique. The proof is the attract mode. You can turn it on and off all day and the first barrel demo will never be the same as any other.

MAME, on the other hand, always starts from the same state when you load the dkong ROM, and the cycle of attract modes on MAME is always the same (barrel screen demo #1, or #4, or #15, or #300, or whatever, will never vary from one boot to the next, and it only branches when you add a credit).

So you could sync two MAME setups, but not two original DK PCBs.

It might work for Pac Man though since, from what I understand, Pac Man has no randomness!
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Re: Elevator Stage, how do you get from safe spot to safe spot?
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2013, 08:58:50 pm »
I think Dean or someone analyzed this previously.  My understanding of why this happens is the memory on a DK cab on boot up contains garbage and in MAME it's zeroed out.  Somehow the RNG is influenced by what's in the memory.

Offline ChrisP

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Re: Elevator Stage, how do you get from safe spot to safe spot?
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2013, 09:59:04 pm »
I also think it's interesting that MAME boots to a neatly-organized rug pattern, vs. a cab which is sloppy sprite/color chaos.
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4 Quarters :-* - 800K Avg. Per Qtr. :o - No Restarts 8) - No Proof :'(

7/26/2013   Coin 35,946   710,800   18-1
7/28/2013   Coin 35,947   903,700   22-1
8/16/2013   Coin 35,948   694,100   17-6
8/17/2013   Coin 35,949   893,100   22-1

3,201,700: the $1 World Record?
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