Save Kits

[muscleandfitness]

Save Kits on your dk cabs  Newsflash just in just spoke with jace about the save kits that people have on there dk cabs , it looks like you can submit your high scores with this feature on them.. as long a people vote on your game . so they are allowed ..

[Donkey Kong Genius]

Does that mean that anything would be allowed as long as your score is voted approved?

[WCopeland]

Does that mean that anything would be allowed as long as your score is voted approved?

Yes.  I could literally draw a crude sketch of a 1.2 million DK score and submit that as my evidence package, and if it received enough upvotes from the community it would be approved.

edit: With that in mind, it might be worth a discussion whether the HSL should automatically mirror future TG submissions.

[Donkey Kong Genius]

Good question. Previous TG scores had a verification process that was not subject to possible errors due to a voting process. Perhaps, each score should be re-evaluated by us on a case by case basis. If a score is accepted by TG but yet falls below HSL standards then the rules should be re-evaluated. I will say that the only reason the HSL rules states that TG scores are automatically accepted was based upon the prior verification process. If that process changes, then the basis for the HSL rule no longer applies, the rule is out-dated, and in need of revision. Hopefully, no issues will arise and both entities will be able to accept the score.

[Dustin(tiptop)Myers]

Is this true for a Double Donkey Kong too?
 

[danman123456]

Not sure how i feel about this. I don't think there is any real difference with a save kit vs no save kit or the DDK and perhaps it should be relaxed but this "if people say its ok its ok" just doesn't seem right to me. A record should be based on something concrete not how people feel. I'm going to get verified and probably submit my soon to achieve 1.15 DK score  but what happens then will be interesting. Just have to wait and see.

Dan

[Donkey Kong Genius]

It is my understanding that when there is a save kit, the rom chip and the processor on that save kit functions as the cpu side of the board - perhaps over-simplistic? If that is acceptable for Arcade then what about Jamma, has the DK code and is running a processor on it, and is a different board like the save kit. IMO as soon as you move the line from original design, where do you put the line? If the principle of originality is not followed, what principle is followed? Kind of reminds me of a conversation I had once about Terminator: Salvation. If we could modify the human body, like the Borg in Star Trek, when would we cease to be human. Maybe we are all borg, except a half of a human brain remains, as long as there is some consciousness to speak of, would that still be human. If as long as we have the right DK code, we can do whatever we want to the "body" and it is still Arcade?

It makes sense for there to remain the traditional rules so that all new scores will have the same weight and criteria as older scores. That way, the verification process is just being handled by many people instead of just one. People know what the rules are and then they can all see the game and can say yes or no. We do something similar on the forum, because all can see the score submission and anyone of else could object to the score.

I think that older TG rules are impressed upon people so it will no doubt be a guiding principle. The danger lies in the possibility, but how probable is it, that a whole community would rally behind a score that clearly violates old TG rules. We may not see as many issues as we might think. We are likely to see "factions" of Arcade purists and others who will vote. So if a good sampling of people vote then the voting table will reflect who are friends with whom and who follows certain perspectives.

[danman123456]

Exactly Corey its already hard enough with all the different rom revisions and settings you can have on a game to now include this really presses it. Still i think whatever. If you feel it gives you an advantage then get one yourself right? Sorta like the 8 way vs 4 way and original power supply deal. If an 8 way is an advantage then get one if you really think so. I think the issue will be who votes on it? The die hards of the old crazy rules which were just over the top or the new guys where it could be as simple as "yeah ok good score!"?

Dan

[Scoundrl]

From a technical standpoint the DDK and the Save kits are totally different. So are the Jamma boards. The save kits use the same software and hardware. They dont use a different processor or 'run on a separate board'. All the logic and timings remain in tact, using the same clock speed, video hardware and memory.

Save kits should be allowed 100%. Jamma boards and DDK kits should not.

[SanTe]

From a technical standpoint the DDK and the Save kits are totally different. So are the Jamma boards. The save kits use the same software and hardware. They dont use a different processor or 'run on a separate board'. All the logic and timings remain in tact, using the same clock speed, video hardware and memory.

Save kits should be allowed 100%. Jamma boards and DDK kits should not.

In general I agree, but even save kits should probably be allowed only on a case-by-case basis.  What about save kits that blur the line with minor enhancements and bug fixes.  Here's a good example:

OutRun - Enhanced Edition

[Donkey Kong Genius]

Thanks for the clarification, Ken.

I can't imagine a DK save kit with minor enhancements and bug fixes, like one that uses the 500 sprite instead of 800 when jumping three barrels. One has to use the original 800 sprites for it count for a world record. 

[ChrisP]

Expanding a little on what Ken said, there is a much larger difference between DK on a PCB and DK on MAME than there is between DK on a PCB and DK on a kit-modded PCB.

MAME is emulating (that is, mimicking) the original hardware, by way of software (a driver), in order to run the game, whereas the kit is actually using the original hardware, including the original processor, in order to run the game. The kit is just a daughter card with additional code, and it bypasses the ROMs on the PCB, but it's still making use of all the rest of the RAM, sound hardware, video hardware, etc. on the main PCB, just as the normal game would.

Modding a game by way of daughter card has actually been done since the 80s. In fact, a Ms. Pac-Man PCB is really just a Pac-Man PCB with a daughter card. So Ms. Pac is technically a "Pac Man kit," and what it does is not very different than what a DK HS kit does. This precedent was set a long time ago.

Double Donkey Kong, on the other hand, is DK running on a DK Junior PCB. Hardware is close, but not identical. And I think I remember reading at some point that the timing on DDKs actually IS different - specifically you have less (or was it more?) time when the clock hits zero, among who knows how many other things. Personally I'm baffled that anyone ever wanted one of these. Yeah, you save a couple of minutes swapping PCBs, but why would you would want DK with the wrong sounds, a disfigured Junior PCB, and to pay as much or more than just buying the DK PCB straight up? The project should have been to make a PCB switcher, not a PCB mod. They never should have existed and are bad in a preservation sense, IMO.

So while there may be a good argument to disallow DDK, nobody has ever shown that DK behaves differently on one of the Brasington kits. Agree with Chris M. on the "case-by-case" thing. Since DK was untouched on the kits other than to add FREEPLAY and score-saving, and since everything else is the same in terms of hardware and software, the Brasington kits should be OK.

[muscleandfitness]

yes i asked jace about this and he said as long as people vote on your submittion your scores will be excepted ..lit