Author Topic: DK Submission Rules  (Read 91721 times)

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Offline stella_blue

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #105 on: May 06, 2015, 10:05:53 pm »
I must respectfully disagree.  Failure to abide by the 3+1 lives setting is a deal breaker for me.

Following Event #4 in the "Crazy DK in the Dark" tournament, I forgot to change the 6+1 setting back to its default value.  I started a standard game of DK and noticed the incorrect setting immediately.  I quit the game, changed the setting back to 3+1, and restarted.  No big deal.

Anyone with a pulse would also recognize the incorrect setting.  Continuing the game would suggest that the player either doesn't know the rules (ignorance), or has chosen to brazenly ignore them (defiance).  Either way, the outcome is the same:  submission rejected.

As a compromise, perhaps the language of the submission rules should be modified to specify that the "Lives" and "Bonus" settings are absolute requirements, with no exceptions.

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Donkey Kong Genius

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #106 on: May 07, 2015, 01:37:13 pm »
I must respectfully disagree.  Failure to abide by the 3+1 lives setting is a deal breaker for me.

Following Event #4 in the "Crazy DK in the Dark" tournament, I forgot to change the 6+1 setting back to its default value.  I started a standard game of DK and noticed the incorrect setting immediately.  I quit the game, changed the setting back to 3+1, and restarted.  No big deal.

Anyone with a pulse would also recognize the incorrect setting.  Continuing the game would suggest that the player either doesn't know the rules (ignorance), or has chosen to brazenly ignore them (defiance).  Either way, the outcome is the same:  submission rejected.

As a compromise, perhaps the language of the submission rules should be modified to specify that the "Lives" and "Bonus" settings are absolute requirements, with no exceptions.

One could create an Absolute division in the rules but as I stated before the historical development of the list has been to avoid all absolute rules which is why the normative/auxiliary rule structure was used. Haven't you ever wondered why the rules are either categorized as normative or auxiliary and that the language that defines the nature of the normative rules state: "The normative rules are the most preferred manner for scores to be submitted to the High Score List. It is the players responsibility to be familiar with these rules and should follow them as precisely as possible." Many posts and hours of explanations were used to this effect.

In fact the rules also state that if a score is accepted by TG then it will be accepted at DKF. I know that submissions like the ones I propose can and most likely will get accepted at TG. But like I said, since I am the one who crafted these rules and adopted the normative/auxiliary rule structure I can tell you that what you disagree with is contrary to the purpose and intent of the list which can be clearly seen from its development. Since the list has been handed over to the community you and Jeremy, with or without support from the majority of the community, can feel free to do as much violence to the list as you wish. But let it never be said that I didn't voice against these alterations nor made it clear that it would lose my endorsement.

Some people might catch that they used the wrong settings but that does not address the two hypothetical submissions. Neither propose that either player was trying to ignore the rules or express any type of defiance. This is not part of my concern here. Using the rules that I crafted for the community to reject submissions which should be handled with more care is repugnant to me.

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #107 on: May 07, 2015, 04:27:45 pm »
Quote from: Donkey Kong Genius
Since the list has been handed over to the community you and Jeremy, with or without support from the majority of the community, can feel free to do as much violence to the list as you wish.

For the record, I feel that Scott and Jeremy have done a wonderful job. They have gone far above any call of responsibility or duty and have poured countless unpaid hours of their own time to ensure submitted scores are promptly reviewed and highlighted as necessary. The suggestion they would willfully inflict "violence" on the DKF scoreboard after they have obviously turned it into a labor of love is quite frankly offensive to me.

I do agree with them that 3+1 @ 7k should be a standard.

Offline stella_blue

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #108 on: May 07, 2015, 04:32:58 pm »
In fact the rules also state that if a score is accepted by TG then it will be accepted at DKF. I know that submissions like the ones I propose can and most likely will get accepted at TG.

Possibly, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Also, unless someone deliberately crafts such a submission, we're unlikely to ever find out.

Since the list has been handed over to the community you and Jeremy, with or without support from the majority of the community, can feel free to do as much violence to the list as you wish.

If you regain control of the HSL at some future point, you will have the authority to undo any damage that Jeremy and I may have caused.

But let it never be said that I didn't voice against these alterations nor made it clear that it would lose my endorsement.

Duly noted.

Using the rules that I crafted for the community to reject submissions which should be handled with more care is repugnant to me.

Perhaps the submitter should exercise more care with the required settings.

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Offline xelnia

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #109 on: May 07, 2015, 05:06:58 pm »
Regarding the interpretation of the rules:
Let me break this down into two different score performances.

First, a player reaches the killscreen but later learned that they were award their 4th man upon reaching the 10,000 point threshold instead of at 7,000, where they did not lose their 3rd man prior to 7,000. Do we reject this legitimate performance? No, we do not. There would be no reason to reject this game performance because for the present submission the point threshold was irrelevant.

Second, a player was practicing on 5+ 1 settings but had an incredible break out game. He reaches the killscreen and losses his 4th man. That score which he achieved after his 4th man is a legitamate score and the game performance exceptional. Do we reject this legitimate performance? No, we do not. There would be no reason to reject this game performance because there is no advantage since they are only playing out 4 men as one would with 3+1 settings.

This is the spirit of the normative/auxiliary rules. This is why they were created in the manner in which they have been created.

There is just no brief way to outline how fundamentally flawed this thinking really is. People love using sports analogies when it comes to gaming (because omg e-sport athlete) so maybe that will work here:

Usain Bolt runs the 200m dash in the Olympics. He has a “breakout” first 100 meters and knows that he just beat the actual 100m dash world record. So, he pulls up, stops running, and trots over to the stat keeper and says “omg new wr lit  <Allen>.” Think that will fly?

Rules exist to standardize performances before they happen…not after. Why not just film Olympians running around the track all day and review the tape later to see when they’re best performance happened? Whether you realize it or not, you’re advocating for a position that says “Play however you want, we’ll see which rules fit afterwards.” It’s like trying to hit a moving target in the dark.

You’re arguing a position from an almost academic, legal standpoint. “Did a score performance occur using only 4 lives in direct sequence and without being affected by the Bonus setting?” Write a legal brief and take that shit to court. DK competition has existed and was standardized long before you decided to make a HSL. Part of those standards of competition were the Lives and Bonus settings. The rules reflect those standards. The rules should NOT be written or interpreted in a way that alters the standards. If your system of Normative and Auxiliary rules does so, then the system should be changed. The rules, the system by which they are outlined, the people who interpret/implement/adjudicate…they all serve the game and standards of competition. Not the other way around. Maybe you’re uncomfortable with or don’t understand the fact that those standards originally rose from a dark, nebulous place called “80s arcades and operator manuals.”

Regarding the implementation of the rules:

One could create an Absolute division in the rules but as I stated before the historical development of the list has been to avoid all absolute rules which is why the normative/auxiliary rule structure was used. Haven't you ever wondered why the rules are either categorized as normative or auxiliary and that the language that defines the nature of the normative rules state: "The normative rules are the most preferred manner for scores to be submitted to the High Score List. It is the players responsibility to be familiar with these rules and should follow them as precisely as possible." Many posts and hours of explanations were used to this effect.

This isn’t a freshman philosophy class, so yes…I initially wondered why. But the community supported it, accepted it, and there it is. To say there are no absolute criteria by which a Donkey Kong performance should be judged shows a fundamental misunderstanding of competition and score performances.

In fact the rules also state that if a score is accepted by TG then it will be accepted at DKF. I know that submissions like the ones I propose can and most likely will get accepted at TG.

I would vote to reject those submissions at TG and would put it up to a community vote at DKF regardless of the outcome at TG. Since accepting TG scores are part of the Auxiliary rules then, according to your system, these situations would be perfect for case-by-case peer review.

But like I said, since I am the one who crafted these rules and adopted the normative/auxiliary rule structure I can tell you that what you disagree with is contrary to the purpose and intent of the list which can be clearly seen from its development.

Believe it or not, I was around at the beginning of the HSL, so I’m aware of its historical development. You managed it for, what, 4 months after its finalization (which took a few months)? Scott and I jointly managed it for roughly 13 months, and I have been the sole manager for roughly 5 months. In all of that time the structure and “philosophy” has remain unchanged. I am not the owner of the list. The community owns it. If they agree with your take on the rules then so be it. It is actually possible to disagree with an opinion and still be committed to its implementation.

Since the list has been handed over to the community you and Jeremy, with or without support from the majority of the community, can feel free to do as much violence to the list as you wish.

As you felt free to abandon it and the forum because you got into a little tiff with Ken House? And that’s a more appropriate term: abandoned. Nothing was handed over. You’re implying that Scott and I haphazardly handle the High Score List in your absence. We are not disinterested caretakers awaiting your return or blessing. We have put an enormous amount of effort into the maintenance and adjudication of the HSL. Community input has been used to update the rules and allow for a wider range of score performances. There have been no significant alterations to the letter or spirit of the rules without community input, nor will there be. Since you seem to lack faith in either Scott or myself you’re more than welcome to rally the community and call for our (or at this point, my) removal.

But let it never be said that I didn't voice against these alterations nor made it clear that it would lose my endorsement.

Your name will be etched in stone for all to see, I’m sure. If you would like we can put a big banner above the list that says “Endorsed by Donkey Kong Genius.” Or maybe you’d prefer the more humble route of placing “Endorsed by Corey Chambers” at the bottom.

Some people might catch that they used the wrong settings but that does not address the two hypothetical submissions. Neither propose that either player was trying to ignore the rules or express any type of defiance. This is not part of my concern here.

All hypothetical situations regarding the rules should concern you, not just the ones that make for fun little thought experiments.

Using the rules that I crafted for the community to reject submissions which should be handled with more care is repugnant to me.

Go fuck yourself.
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Offline marinomitch13

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #110 on: May 07, 2015, 06:16:28 pm »
I actually agree with Corey on this one, but I'm not gonna be one to make a fuss about it unless some doofus actually submits some sort of legendary score under one of these highly unorthodox situations (I had actually thought about these exact scenarios on my own before on several occasions).
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Offline xelnia

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #111 on: May 10, 2015, 06:48:08 am »
This recent DKF discussion appears to have been started as a result of a discussion that began on Corey's TG blog.

Quote
Quote
Originally Posted by John73
Can I play DK on 5 + 1 jumpmen? Can I also set the extra life to 10k? As long as I kill off the game after my fourth life, it shouldn't matter because having it on these settings doesn't change the outcome of the game. Can you imagine if I did this and tried to submit that score to DKF? There would be an immediate outcry and the score would rightfully be rejected. But then I will complain, "oh I had it on 5 + 1 for practice and was too lazy to change it" - how is this any different to someone leaving continues enabled or inserting more than 1 credit prior to starting their attempt.

Yes you can! There would be no outcry at DKF, imagined or otherwise. The rules that you read at the Donkey Kong Forum were primarily composed by me, with minor additions by others after I stepped down as the High Score Moderator for the Donkey Kong list. I remain a High Score Moderator at the Donkey Kong Forum. You will see that the game settings are listed as a normative rule, not absolute, which means that given the right conditions as you have proposed that your score would be accepted on the Donkey Kong Forum. There is no evidence that having your settings on at 10k or 5+1 settings has any impact upon game play.

I left a comment that directed attention to this thread so people could see how DKF would react to this scenario. It was deleted and Corey edited his original response to this:

Quote
The rules that you read at the Donkey Kong Forum were primarily composed by me, with minor additions by others after I stepped down as the High Score Moderator for the Donkey Kong list. When I created the list I used a normative/auxiliary model which contained no absolute rules and your scenarios are more than acceptable to me. It is only recently that the two moderators that took over the list after I resigned had shaped the list contrary to its original intent. Those presently moderating this list would agree with you but not everyone involved at the Donkey Kong Forum agree with their position. However, my article is addressed to a more reasonable audience at TG where we are primarily concerned with game play.

Updated Today at 08:19 AM by DonkeyKongGenius

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WCopeland

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #112 on: May 10, 2015, 08:34:09 am »
Oh brother.

Offline stella_blue

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #113 on: May 10, 2015, 08:47:42 am »
Despite an obvious attempt to "rewrite history", a partial audit trail has been preserved.

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #114 on: June 23, 2016, 01:55:21 pm »
I have a question and I would like to double check with the powers that be.

If I have a newer version of wolfmame that runs on Linux on my RaspberryPi... Am I allowed to submit scores for mame under normative rules so long as I can fish the INP file out of it? (and stream to twitch and what not) ...

I haven't even begun to try installing and running it on my Pi yet. Ive just started messing with it to be honest and am learning my way around RaspberryPi. But here is a link to the wolfmame download for anyone to check out and tell me what they think.

https://emulationrealm.net/downloads/file/1674-wolfmame-linux-64bit


Offline xelnia

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #115 on: June 23, 2016, 03:56:28 pm »
I have a question and I would like to double check with the powers that be.

If I have a newer version of wolfmame that runs on Linux on my RaspberryPi... Am I allowed to submit scores for mame under normative rules so long as I can fish the INP file out of it? (and stream to twitch and what not) ...

I haven't even begun to try installing and running it on my Pi yet. Ive just started messing with it to be honest and am learning my way around RaspberryPi. But here is a link to the wolfmame download for anyone to check out and tell me what they think.

https://emulationrealm.net/downloads/file/1674-wolfmame-linux-64bit

As long as you submit a working WolfMAME INP, that should be fine. As far as I know, INPs made with the Linux build of WolfMAME will play back on the Windows build.
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Offline mrvaya

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #116 on: October 14, 2016, 08:15:49 am »
Ok a question that I havent seen answered yet but would like to know the answer to before I start grinding on my cab: Will a score made on the original Donkey Kong-game be accepted if the Remix Kit is attached?
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Offline xelnia

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #117 on: October 15, 2016, 12:41:35 am »
Ok a question that I havent seen answered yet but would like to know the answer to before I start grinding on my cab: Will a score made on the original Donkey Kong-game be accepted if the Remix Kit is attached?

Yes, that is acceptable. Aside from weirdness with the high score table (see Allen's streams from a few months ago), I don't think anyone has found that the Remix kit affects the core game.
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Offline mrvaya

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #118 on: October 15, 2016, 02:10:10 am »
Thx you sir.
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WCopeland

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Re: List Submission Rules
« Reply #119 on: October 15, 2016, 05:54:46 am »
Be extra cautious to ensure your entire performance is recorded. Partial performances with a Remix kit are tougher to verify because the kit can override the hardware dips.