Poll

Should we allow RetroUprising (RU) scores on DKF?

Yes (no restrictions)
8 (23.5%)
Yes, under certain circumstances (specify in the thread)
16 (47.1%)
No
10 (29.4%)

Total Members Voted: 24

Voting closed: May 22, 2014, 06:43:10 am

Author Topic: Should we allow RetroUprising (RU) scores on DKF?  (Read 24225 times)

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Offline xelnia

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Should we allow RetroUprising (RU) scores on DKF?
« on: May 08, 2014, 06:43:10 am »
A legitimate question has been raised as to whether scores achieved through the RetroUprising site can be submitted and accepted here at DKF. Currently we are accepting Crazy Kong scores from RU but NOT scores for Donkey Kong. The purpose of this thread is to have a community discussion and come up with a community decision regarding these scores. In the interest of full disclosure, some of the RU members that are interested in submitting to DKF are moderators on that forum and are regular members here. They have access to in-house score verification methods at RU that we won't have.

According to the List Submission Rules for Donkey Kong the only acceptable version of MAME for submissions is WolfMAME. RU uses their own build of MAME. WolfMAME disallows pauses or throttling while recording, however these actions are still possible while recording on RU. The moderators at RU are able to check recordings for pauses and throttling, however this is an in-house process and is not directly accessible by the moderators here at DKF.

Here are the three main issues I see and my personal opinions regarding each:

1) Pauses

It is necessary to put players on a level field, especially since we choose to mix Arcade and MAME scores. RU scores should not be accepted if they contain pauses. Currently I know of no way to directly and independently detect pauses. This means a level of trust and dependence on the RU moderators is needed should they be willing to share this information.

2) Throttling

This involves changing the speed of the game while playing. Normally this would be utilized at start-up to skip all the intro scenes. Again, this issue involves putting all players on as level of a field as possible. WolfMAME disallows this action while recording and Arcade players don't have the luxury. Recorded speed CAN be independently verified.

3) Access to INPs

Any MAME score submitted to DKF needs to include the INP. This is an absolute deal-breaker for me. We must be able to independently view the game in question. I'm not sure if it is possible to access another player's INP from the RU site, but players can access their own INPs and would be able to submit them to DKF.

My opinion is that if we can independently verify that a game contains no pauses or throttling and also have access to the INP we should be able to determine that a score is legitimate and achieved without any special advantage. It has been suggested that RU scores be streamed live as another verification method.

Although I am a "high score moderator" I am not a rule-maker. This needs to be a community decision. What does the community have to say? I encourage RU members to take part in the discussion!
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Offline Monstabonza

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Re: Should we allow RetroUprising (RU) scores on DKF?
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2014, 07:05:11 am »

3) Access to INPs

Any MAME score submitted to DKF needs to include the INP. This is an absolute deal-breaker for me. We must be able to independently view the game in question. I'm not sure if it is possible to access another player's INP from the RU site, but players can access their own INPs and would be able to submit them to DKF.

Actually anybody who has donated to RU can view and download any verified INP from RU.
Also it is MAME 135 build.




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hchien

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Re: Should we allow RetroUprising (RU) scores on DKF?
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2014, 07:22:00 am »
I noticed a very slight lag when I played DK on RU.  Anyone else notice this?  I don't know if it was my setup or I'm just sensitive or it's just in my head.  Obviously this is a disadvantage.  Since the HSL mixes MAME/arcade/triple DK I don't see a problem including RU scores.

WCopeland

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Re: Should we allow RetroUprising (RU) scores on DKF?
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2014, 07:27:37 am »
I think I can understand both sides of this argument.

On one hand, it's great to include more scores into the HSL and more players into the DKF community.

On the other hand, I have some reservations. They are not using WolfMAME, which has been the standard for so long for a very good reason. Accepting scores from something besides WolfMAME is quite a precedent. If we donate to RU, can we verify that no pauses were used in the INP, or does this still require a level of trust from their moderator team? If it requires a level of trust, that seems like a dealbreaker because a lot of cloak and dagger stuff can go on like with TG.

Also, and I mean no disrespect to the players on RU, but I believe I only saw two killscreen scores and both of those players already have a significantly higher PB recognized on DKF. #3 and below I believe would not even crack the top 100. I don't believe scores that would be this low on the HSL demand us changing our stance on WolfMAME.

I noticed a very slight lag when I played DK on RU.  Anyone else notice this?  I don't know if it was my setup or I'm just sensitive or it's just in my head.  Obviously this is a disadvantage.  Since the HSL mixes MAME/arcade/triple DK I don't see a problem including RU scores.

It was most likely not in your head. I can only play Defender on one obscure version of MAME due to input lag issues with almost every other build.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2014, 07:46:55 am by WCopeland »

Offline tudose

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Re: Should we allow RetroUprising (RU) scores on DKF?
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2014, 10:32:23 am »
i think if we allow it for ck then we should allow it for dk lit
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Offline marky_d

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Re: Should we allow RetroUprising (RU) scores on DKF?
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2014, 12:49:25 pm »
I noticed a very slight lag when I played DK on RU.  Anyone else notice this?  I don't know if it was my setup or I'm just sensitive or it's just in my head.  Obviously this is a disadvantage.

I had the same problem, and it seemed to be fixed by changing the window's priority in task manager, so maybe that will work for others.
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Offline danman123456

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Re: Should we allow RetroUprising (RU) scores on DKF?
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2014, 01:31:16 pm »
With mame being so easy to obtain I don't see a real need to include RU in the equation (not sure why it is for CK missed that topic). Plus like it was said there are no scores on it at this time even necessary. If we just want to branch out and give people an option maybe but then someone needs to donate/download the inp and verify it for any pause inputs (Which how do you do that?)

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Offline Monstabonza

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Re: Should we allow RetroUprising (RU) scores on DKF?
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2014, 02:34:18 pm »
When starting the CK list I had the idea to combine the 3 existing scoreboards Aurcade Tg and RU plus any submissions here, this was done to get the most accurate list that I could,
At the time a lot of the same questions arose,
At this point Josephjho offered to check the scores for pausing, of which 2 scores were removed from the list for using pauses, he also sent me a screen shot of the data that mods have access to on RU.
This shows pauses, length if recording and other bits of info.
I will post a link at some stage but im on a phone now so can't do much.

I have donated there so I am able to download the inp files should the need arise.
When played back through mame it does give an average recorded speed but does not say if it was paused.

I haven't downloaded an inp with a pause in it so I am not sure what happens when watching but I'll assume it doesn't pause when being played back. I'll check later tho.

Basically the way I see it is yes we will be putting some trust in the RU mods but is this any different to the trust placed in Scott, Jry and myself?
I think between Barra and Joey we have 2 people that have offered to help and I personally believe them to be honest and trustworthy people. (Not something an Aussie says about kiwis and poms Easley)


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Offline ChrisP

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Re: Should we allow RetroUprising (RU) scores on DKF?
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2014, 02:55:38 pm »
One thing I have always believed about the high score list is that scores should merit different levels of scrutiny based on where the performance will rank.

In other words, a kill screen submission should demand more rigor than a 200K submission, a million point game more than a kill screen, and a new world record ought to be scanned under a microscope.

Some of you I know would disagree strongly with that way of thinking, and would say that this is unfair and that the same rules should apply to everyone. Maybe it brings back a bad taste in your mouth from the "live million only" era. In terms of ideals, I agree with you. It's impure. But in terms of real-world practicality, it just makes a lot more sense, for many reasons, to not put as much verification effort into scores below a certain threshold.

So maybe the way to do this would be to have a threshold for RetroUprising scores? Like, if it's less than a kill screen, or 500K, or whatever, you can get your score on the DKF HSL, but if you want to go bigger than that, you need a Wolf INP.

For what it's worth, I, personally, would be super-lax with a HSL and I would be okay with you guys going in a lax direction. Why? Because I think more scores = better. I want a DK HSL with a thousand names on it. Toward that end, it should be as easy as possible. Almost to the point of taking scores on peoples' word alone if they're below 800K.

Generally speaking, I trust people unless I can smell a motive for shenanigans (which I've definitely smelled from a few folks, both on and not-on the HSL currently, but those cases are rare. Only three come to mind, actually.) The vast majority of DK submissions are on the up-and-up. Cheating and/or lying and/or embellishing has really not been a problem, and tends to scream alarm bells when somebody's being shady. Virtually every player who has a big score on the HSL has proven that they're capable of the score next to their name either in person or live stream (with one mega-notable exception). That being the case, I don't think "more relaxed" is a bad way to go.

So I say thumbs up to RU, with a 800K-or-lower restriction, and 800K+ requiring special verification on the INP with documentation from the RU admins.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2014, 03:31:34 pm by ChrisP »
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Re: Should we allow RetroUprising (RU) scores on DKF?
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2014, 10:38:52 pm »
I hope that I am understanding the question correctly.

I believe that one of the strengths of the HSL is that it is credible. In which case I believe that any movement of the criteria towards the more lax'ed side of the spectrum will weaken its credibility.
And I do not think that a more liberal movement is even necessary in this situation. So what is real issue here? Through the development of the list there has not been any movement in this regard, nor reversals of established criteria. In fact, there has been great growth and development in expanding upon additional means for greater allowance while maintaining the normative rules, with our auxiliary rules. For example, the inp rule was to allow us access, to be able to address certain concerns. So we required the inp for window capture streaming only. Then we saw fit, in the light of Robbie's score, which is no longer relevant, but the case is useful, that whatever concerns that we had which required the inp, could those same concerns be met by additional evidences. Could we ask ourselves the same questions here?

The scores that are contained on the list have passed through a certain level of scrutiny. Unlike Chris, and having constructed the rules for the list in the past, I maintain that all scores should pass through the same level of scrutiny. Obviously, Chris's comment about paying additional attention to the higher scores is important, and more time asking questions concerning them is prudent. When someone looks at our list, I want them to have the highest level of certainty that we put each score through a decent level of scrutiny. Someone attempting to break 200K should feel like they beat a true score that has passed through the same level of scrutiny and that their advancement on the list has greater relevance.

From the comments below, we have access to the inp files at RU through those with access. And from what I understand there may not be too many scores from RU. (Correct me if I am wrong).

I do not think it wise to merely accept the verification of those at RU. I do think that we should verify these scores. What about TG scores? Don't we accept a score for simply being on TG?

I see two issues that need to be discussed. 1) Since we accept TG scores, are we not trusting the verification of others? 2) Why did we determine to stick with WolfMAME as the only acceptable emulator? What were the concerns? Can those concerns be addressed through additional evidences?

Besides, if we determined to work out an expansion upon our criteria, it would be wise to add an additional designation on the list. MAME is now used for WolfMAME, so we would not want to mix them.

I believe that since we have "connections" with TG through our blanket acceptance of those scores given their criteria, it would equally be advantageous for us to seek out ways to connect with other gaming/score keeping entities. Doing so would only assist the DKF in its support of gaming, and the over all encouraging for high scores.

Offline stella_blue

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Re: Should we allow RetroUprising (RU) scores on DKF?
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2014, 10:51:22 pm »

I voted "Yes", as long as we have:
  • Access to the INP files
  • The tools to verify them independently

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Offline marinomitch13

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Re: Should we allow RetroUprising (RU) scores on DKF?
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2014, 10:55:19 pm »

I voted "Yes", as long as we have:
  • Access to the INP files
  • The tools to verify them independently

Ditto^
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Re: Should we allow RetroUprising (RU) scores on DKF?
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2014, 01:20:21 am »
Would someone at RU not be able to tell us how to check mame 135 inps for pauses? Or figure it out for ourselves?

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Offline Monstabonza

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Re: Should we allow RetroUprising (RU) scores on DKF?
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2014, 01:36:29 am »
Here's a copy of what I have been shown for RU submissions.
This particular game is for for Tim's CK submission
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Offline Barra

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Re: Should we allow RetroUprising (RU) scores on DKF?
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2014, 08:47:24 am »
Sorry for the long post. Some points are probably stated more than once.

In the interests of full disclosure, and for those unaware, JosephJo and myself (Barra) are moderators at RU. I raised this issue with Jeremy as we are both aiming for a DK killscreen and we would love to have our scores included (as well as everyone elses, of course) in the DKF HSL. I am posting on behalf of the both of us (JosephJo feel free to chime in if I have missed something).
We have both not voted on the poll to eliminate any potential bias.

Quote from: WCopeland
They are not using WolfMAME, which has been the standard for so long for a very good reason. Accepting scores from something besides WolfMAME is quite a precedent. If we donate to RU, can we verify that no pauses were used in the INP, or does this still require a level of trust from their moderator team? If it requires a level of trust, that seems like a dealbreaker because a lot of cloak and dagger stuff can go on like with TG.

Correct, we do not use WolfMAME. However, we do use a version that is at least as good, if not better, than WolfMAME. This is a direct quote from the creator of RU and AOX:
Quote from: Kong
We have all of the security that WolfMAME has plus more. WolfMAME is easier to hack than our version.

If you donate, you will be able to watch submissions that are verified. You will have access to the INPs. You will be able to independently verify if there is throttling, but not if there are pauses.

Quote from: WCopeland
. I don't believe scores that would be this low on the HSL demand us changing our stance on WolfMAME.
The point of this discussion is to be able to verify any future scores, not ones that are there now.
For the record, there are 3 players' scores (other than Ben's, Tim's and Jason's) that would break the top 100.

With mame being so easy to obtain I don't see a real need to include RU in the equation.

RU (AOX) is much easier to use than MAME. I used MAME for 8 years before I found RU. No need to download ROMs or emulators. The playing field is more even with everyone using the same version and same ROMs.
In addition, I am sure DKF wants the complete and unprecedented high score list for Donkey Kong (and variations). Why would they not want to include scores?

From the comments below, we have access to the inp files at RU through those with access. And from what I understand there may not be too many scores from RU. (Correct me if I am wrong).

Correct, anyone who has donated will have permanent access to watch scores.
At the current time there arent many scores, but this is looking toward the future in the case that people improve their scores and make a significant contribution to the HSL here.

Quote from: Donkey Kong Genius
I do not think it wise to merely accept the verification of those at RU.
I agree. A separate scoreboard warrants its own verification. We would like to aid in this verification.


I will reiterate what I have said above by addressing the three issues outlined in the original post:

Quote from: Original post
1) Pauses
It is necessary to put players on a level field, especially since we choose to mix Arcade and MAME scores. RU scores should not be accepted if they contain pauses. Currently I know of no way to directly and independently detect pauses. This means a level of trust and dependence on the RU moderators is needed should they be willing to share this information.

We are willing to share any and all information about pauses on RU DK submissions. We can show you this either through a photo as Nick has shown above, or even better by live stream so you can see no tampering has occurred.

Quote from: Original post
2) Throttling

This involves changing the speed of the game while playing. Normally this would be utilized at start-up to skip all the intro scenes. Again, this issue involves putting all players on as level of a field as possible. WolfMAME disallows this action while recording and Arcade players don't have the luxury. Recorded speed CAN be independently verified.

This should not be an issue as you can independently verify this.

Quote from: Original post
3) Access to INPs

Any MAME score submitted to DKF needs to include the INP. This is an absolute deal-breaker for me. We must be able to independently view the game in question. I'm not sure if it is possible to access another player's INP from the RU site, but players can access their own INPs and would be able to submit them to DKF.

You can either:
1 - Let us provide you with the INP for a game wanting to be submitted here, or
2 - Donate to RU and have the ability to watch all verified submissions across the site (and have access to the INPs)

I 100% agree that you should have access to the INP.

Quote from: Original post
It has been suggested that RU scores be streamed live as another verification method.

I dont think this should be a requirement for normal submissions.
However, PERSONALLY, I will require a live stream of my OWN DK submission before submitting to you guys. This is to remove any potential bias or "cloak and dagger" accusations etc, being that I am a Mod. This removes ANY doubt regarding pauses, throttling etc etc.

For any other submissions (ie non-mod), I dont think this should be required.

So basically, in conclusion, DKF would have to place a reasonable amount of trust upon JosephJo and myself but I dont think this is too much to ask for. DKF should still always do their own verification, which we would like to aid in any way possible.

Lastly, I am personally a little disappointed in the amount of "no" votes without any justification or reasoning. If you have a problem with accepting RU scores, please by all means let us know why, it will only help with our discussion. No hard feelings will arise because of it.

Thanks
Andrew
« Last Edit: May 10, 2014, 08:51:22 am by Barra »
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