Should we allow RetroUprising (RU) scores on DKF?

[Barra]

We can promote one of the DKF Mods to Donor over at RU, in order to have access to the INPs of any submission.

[Josephjo]

That would be in addition to the following who all have the ability as Donors to access INP's

JCHarrist
xelnia
ebinsugewa
Monsta Bonza
gstrain
d3scride
D.B.Cooper
Fly
QAOP Spaceman

Nothing much to add to what Barra said earlier - in a nutshell we'd just like to help and be part of DKF.

Either way we'll be cool about the decision - there's far too much drama elsewhere within this hobby.

Thanks

~Julian

[Monstabonza]

I would just like to say a big thank you to Barra, Julian and Kong I assume for the kind offer of upgrading one of the HS mods to doner over at RU.
It is very much appreciated.

[Fast Eddie]

voted Yes, under certain circumstances... since i dont see any reason not to trust the mods there who can check for pausing...

 

[danman123456]

From the perspective to get more people involved I say go for it as it provides a valid method to play and get a score. Plus having the ability to validate the pauses is the only real concern I had which looks like its a no-brainer at this point so go for it!        

[muscleandfitness]

what does this all Mean fttttt..

[tudose]

allen pls lol you dont have to worry about this discussion. we will let you know when we start accepting submissions from highscore.com

[f_symbols]

 

[alumbrada]

Here at DKF, every member's input is valued. 

[gstrain]

I voted yes, although it would be nice if Kong would tweak the RU user interface so that everybody could see the Pause count and Recorded Speed info for all recordings. 

Twin Galaxies scores are accepted on completely blind faith and with RU its easy for almost anybody to check everything accept the pause count themselves, and we have a couple of mods around to help with that.  Frankly if we're voting I'd be interested to see a vote about whether we should be accepting TG scores that have no public evidence.

-George

[Donkey Kong Genius]

I think that good discussion has taken place here. George brings up an issue I touched upon which was the blind faith issue concerning TG, which is why I used to for this discussion. Although I don't have any scores that I would dispute except maybe billy's scores. It may have happened but two world records in one day on both DK and Junior just seems odd to me, not to mention the tape debacle, and the direct feed, which we would not accept. Any ways, we had discussed using WolfMAME only at one time and some basic issues were raised. I think that as long as those underlining issues were addressed it would comply with the reasons that underlined the WolfMAME only.

We could 1) Keep the WolfMAME only language in the normative rules, but make an allowance in the Auxiliary rules stating that other supporting evidences or validation process reasonably addresses original concerns. I did this concerning the INP requirement. In the normative rules it is required to have the INP, and that is what I wanted to have for verification. But then the "Lakeman Loophole" was created in the Auxiliary rules to allow other evidences to sufficiently address the same purpose for requiring the inp. This is also the only reason that Christian's score is on the list. We could do the same here. This would be my first choice.

Or 2) Simply "expand" the WolfMAME only to allow for the RU, provided that stipulations are mentioned in the Normative rules. This would be my second choice in my arm was twisted.

Traditionally, I would write up the ideal in the normative rules, and then provide possible allowances in the Auxiliary rules. However, we have not rejected any scores on other mame versions, but the allowance of RU then opens up the question concerning other emulators and therefore other scores found on MARP. It may be wise just to add a line to the auxiliary rules that briefly explains the relationship and describes the "other evidences" concept. That way we are not opening up completely to any and all emulators and can essentially retain the language of Wolfmame only in our normative rules because from what we discussed before there was a decent concensus that it is preferred.

Either way, we should be sure to specify RU or some other platform other than mame on the HSL, since mame is traditionally Wolfmame, unless it is an older TG submission. That way gamers and outsiders can see the MAME and RU platforms and can decide for themselves how comparable they are. They should not be coupled together in my opinion.

[Donkey Kong Genius]

The reason I would support an addition to the Auxiliary rules is because much of what is said in these rules is very applicable to what we are talking about. Take note of just a few:

Auxiliary Rules: The auxiliary rules were created to evaluate scores that could not be submitted according to the normative rules. It is understood that there are occasions where the normative rules were either unknown or could not be followed for one reason or another. These rules evaluate the evidence to determine if it is sufficient in order to verify a score with a high degree of certainty.

6.   MARP submissions or any other INP’s are accepted. The .inp and .wlf files must be WolfMAME-only due to advantages allowed by other emulators. (It is encouraged that those who achieved there [TYPO should be their] performance with a recorded input alone are to stream their input file on Twitch.)

7.   The requirement for .inp and .wlf files addresses the possible falsification of a streamed game. If for some reason the player does not record their input along with their stream then they must demonstrate other evidences to address these concerns. These concerns predominantly include window capture only streaming formats. These evidences include: 1) showing the start up process of the game by clicking on the game in WolfMAME so we can see it is being started by the WolfMAME program. 2) At the end of the game, after the initials are entered, start another game while the game is still running. 3) Using the monitor capture format or using a webcam facing your monitor will enable people to see that you do not have any video software open on the bottom of the screen and that you are actually starting and playing a game live on Twitch.

9.   The cumulative effect of multiple evidences will also play a factor in the acceptance of a score even if those evidences are not adequate alone.

10.   Additionally, and most importantly, all scores on this list must be peer-reviewed in one manner or another. All scores which are being submitted according to the Auxiliary Rules will be handled on case by case bases and must be peer-reviewed, and a general consensus must be given by the DK Community that the score is probably genuine.

We could then perhaps add the following:

11. Due to our established relationship with RetroUprising.com, the community has given general consensus concerning the acceptance of score submissions to RetroUprising provided that 1) the inp files are accessible and can be verified by DKF, 2) the game is replayed on youtube or twitch so that it is view-able by the entire community, 3) non-Wolfmame emulator does not offer any advantage and evidences can be offered to support these concerns, and 4) provided that the scores receive their own platform designation on the HSL.


I may not fully understand everything about RU so the wording above may not be complete in what it should say, but it is at least a start as to what this could look like as an addition to the Auxiliary rules.

[marinomitch13]

Thanks, Corey. I think those are great suggestions. With Jeff having added this thread as a highlight to the top of the DKF homepage, I'd say that maybe only a week or so of more time is needed before we can agree to move on and implement some of these changes -assuming the majority opinion remains as clear as it looks now. I'd like to hear some more of the thoughts of people who voted "no".

[KIG666]

I voted Yes, under certain circumstances (specify in the thread)

Generally Im fine with the idea but I also like the fact that most of the scores on the HSL provide inputs/vids/streams.

Best would be if every submitter streams their input file on Twitch or uploads a vid of it on YT to make sure that we all can watch the gameplay without having to register on a other site.

The rest would be up to the High Score Mods to verify the iputs.

[xelnia]

The poll has ended and it shows that the community is generally in favor of accepting scores from Retro Uprising. I am confident that the issues involved with using a non-WolfMAME emulator can, in this case, be addressed and that we will be able to hold RU scores to the appropriate standard. As always, the DKF High Score List should be a product of community consensus so there is no need for the discussion to end here. I'd like to hear more details from the "no" votes as to the reasoning behind their decision.

For now, a new Auxiliary Rule has been created to address scores obtained at Retro Uprising. I encourage everyone to review the List Submission Rules. Thank you all for your input!