KO3 Format and Qualification Discussion

[TheSunshineFund]

I had suggested a March Madness style bracket for the first Kong Off.  It was discussed in detail but never implemented.  I think it would make for the best spectator event for non-expert DK spectators.

[Milehighdt]

I like the idea of a head to head tournament and to give it a more random element it should be no-hammer. I would get a kick out of watching the rivet stages. If that is too much randomness each head to head battle could have two restarts or best two out of three games.

[hchien]

I agree a bracket tournament would be more interesting for the average spectator to watch.  The only problem with that system is with 1 game (or even best of 3), most people would just run boards.  I'd probably run boards until I faced say one of the 1.1M players. 

I also thought about a handicap system.  The one josephjo suggested pretty much amounts to subtracting your PB.  The only problem with that is that DK high scores are not linear in terms of skill level past say 900-950K.  You can say a 800K player is twice as good as a 400K player, but a 1M player is MORE than twice as good as a 500K player.  And a 1.1M player is a lot more than twice as good as a 550K player.  I could probably work out some mathematical scoring system/handicap based on your PB (which I've thought about before) which would assume 1.2M is the max, but it'd just confuse everyone.  BTW, under that handicap system, I'm pretty sure Allen Staal won the first WC rematch.  Congrats!

[Jeffw]

Yeah bracket could be interesting for spectators, but it could also be very boring. Assuming that you can see your opponents game as you are playing your own, it is in your best interest to play through the boards as slowly as possible (but without losing points or taking extra risks) so that you are always behind your opponent. This will give you the luxury of finishing second and knowing exactly what score you need to beat.

I could see a viable strategy, especially in games of top players vs top players, being to just wait at the top of the barrel screen jumping barrels for as long as possible (and maybe also leaching the fireball on elevators). Sure you will lose some points from wild barrels but being able to finish second is a huge advantage and may compensate for the loss of points. You could end up in situations where both players are employing this strategy at the top of barrels and that wouldn't be too fun for either players or spectators.

[JohnTheLawnMan]

Are you guys talking single or two player games?

Because if your talking a two player game, forget it!  I had that brilliant idea a while back.  I was going to call it the "Old School Arcade Rules Tournament."  It sounded awesome, in theory.  Players going head to head in two player games,  with a bracket and everything.  Then the last two battle it out for the championship.

I pitched the idea to Eric in mid December, and we gave it a test at Richie's during his grand opening on the 21st.

 I was all excited about it, until we actually did it.  I wanted to shoot myself in the head less than half way through.  First off, it was boring was F@*k.  It was less entertaining than watching paint dry.  It also took fooooooooooreeeeeeeveeeeeer.  A tournament in that style would be an epic fail.

One good thing was that I filmed the entire thing with commentary.  The final produced video is going to be hillarious!

I'm pretty sure we're going to stick with standard "high score wins in designated time frame" format.  That alone is a decent amount of work to organize and track.

-John

[JohnTheLawnMan]

I'll throw something at you guys that I think should be implemented for the Kong Off.

I don't agree with the fact that once someone scores 1 million points, they are in the tournament for life.  Name one other "sport" that does that?

Once the Kong Off is over, the field should be cleaned, and players should have to qualify within one month of the next Kong Off.  Have 10 available spots and the top 10 qualifying scores get their own machine.  The rest have to play wild card, which should also have a qualifying round.  But the wild card qualifier would be live the Friday before the event.

[ChrisP]

The only problem with that is that DK high scores are not linear in terms of skill level past say 900-950K.  You can say a 800K player is twice as good as a 400K player

And I would very much hesitate to say even that! 

I think skill is highly non-linear throughout the spectrum, not just in those last 350,000 points between 850K and 1.2M.

I don't think that it's as simple as "twice the score = twice as good" at any point. There are several plateau-points that seem to recur consistently among a cross-section of players.

For example, for upper-hammerers, it seems very common to get stuck at 300-400K averages for a very long time, whereas once an upper-hammerer can get 500K or more in nearly every game for a dozen games or so, he suddenly finds himself leaping that 300-350K gap to the kill screen.

In other words, you typically become an 850K kill-screener very soon after you become a consistent 500K player, but it takes MUCH longer to go from being a consistent 300K player to being even a consistent 500K player.

So it's pretty complicated, which is why a handicapping system would have to be complicated!

[ChrisP]

I don't agree with the fact that once someone scores 1 million points, they are in the tournament for life.  Name one other "sport" that does that?

Once the Kong Off is over, the field should be cleaned, and players should have to qualify within one month of the next Kong Off.

I agree with you that something about the qualification process should be tweaked, but you can't just wipe the slate completely either.

Jeff Willms, for example, is the reigning champion. It would be silly to say that he needs to qualify in order to defend his title.

Also, Billy and Steve absolutely have to be at any and all Kong Offs. It's a public event that needs to draw a crowd, and they're the only players with the power to draw a crowd. Except for Hank, the public doesn't know anybody else.

If you put a few automatic gimmes in place, those problems are solved. Any Kong Off should automatically include:
1. The winner of the previous Kong Off
2. The runner-up of the previous Kong Off
3. The current world record holder
4. Former world record holders who held the title with over 1 million points
5. Anybody who has scored over 1.1 million, whether MAME or arcade

As of now, that would give us Jeff, Dean, Hank, and Vincent (the four best players in the world, with the possible exception of Ross) plus Billy and Steve (the two most important "faces"). I think it's right for those six to get a free pass.

The rest though? I'd say you're absolutely right: make them qualify. "Within the month prior" is way too tight of a timetable, though. The main-eventers need to be set BY one month prior, for the sake of both the organizers and the contestants (travel arrangements, publicity, guy writing profiles of them for his blog, etc.).

The qualifying period should be something like three months: "the six highest scores achieved between July 15th and October 15th," for example.

A qualifying round for the wildcard machines is also necessary, evidently, given what happened last year.

Six "permanent" dedicated spots, and four to six that the players have to fight for. I like it!

[Xermon54]

It's definitely a good option, Chris. I would enjoy these kind of qualifications.

[stella_blue]

I agree with the 6 automatic invites you've listed, Chris:  Billy, Dean, Hank, Jeff, Steve, and Vincent (I've listed them alphabetically by first name, Vincent, so stop complaining).   

However, for the rest of the main field, I believe a 3 month qualifying window is also far too stringent.  In my view, it's a no-brainer; the qualifying period should begin the day after the previous Kong Off, and end 1 month before the current event.  I may be mistaken, but when I read John's post, I assumed that's what he intended.

I would also be in favor of a qualifying loophole that would guarantee me a spot at the next Kong Off, by virtue of being the only player over 50 who can stay awake long enough to reach Level 10.

[ChrisP]

Oh, I see what John was saying.

And I put Vincent last because he just isn't quite as good as the guy I listed before him.

[mikegmi2]

Yea, there can be a lot of things to consider regarding who gets "dedicated machines" at the upcomming Kong Off.

I agree it is kinda necessary to always have the 'big names' in the event...Billy and Steve.  They draw the people in.  This event doesn't happen without them.  Or does it?  Hard to say.  There hasn't been a Kong Off without them.

I like the analogy to other sports...its true, no other sport keeps letting the top players or teams back into the playoffs, or championship, year after year.  They have to play through a season, prove themselves again, and earn their way back in again. 

I really like the idea of a qualification period.  That would be the 'regular season' for Donkey Kong players.  It would be a way for all players to prove themselves, year over year, that they didn't just have 1 'lucky' game.  It would also keep things fresh and exciting for all players trying to "earn a spot".  You would always know who had these 4 or 6 spots locked in currently...and as time went on you would know what score you had to try to beat.  The 1 MAJOR flaw with something like this would be sandbagging.  If there were players that held out, and didn't tell anyone about a great score they got, it would give everyone else "false hope" that scoring a certain score would earn them a spot. 

Lets say the field of qualified players looked like this:
1. Billy
2. Steve
3. Hank
4. Vincent
5. Dean
6. Jeff
7. Player A - 1,060,000
8. Player B - 1,050,000
9. Player C - 1,040,000
10. Player D - 1,030,000
11. Player E - 1,020,000
12. Player F - 1,010,000

There could be another player, or 2 players, call them Player G and Player H, who held scores 1,035,000, and 1,025,000, respectively. These players had these scores on video tape...and did not tell the DK community about them. Everyone else trying to qualify, as it got down to the wire, would be shooting for a safe score that would beat 1,010,000...to knock Player F out and take their spot...only this would be pointless, because the true score to beat would be 1,025,000, Player H's score.
Sandbaggers could hold onto their scores in an attempt to theoretically lower the 'qualifying score' cutoff.

On the other hand...one could argue that you can throw the whole 'sandbagging' argument out the window...and just always assume there may be someone out there sandbagging...so always go for your best/highest possible score...during the qualification period.  That way you know that you did your best...and even if someone submits a last minute high score that gets them a spot on the last day of qualifying...you were pushing for the highest possible score you could achieve the whole time, so doesn't matter.

BUT - ...well...it really DOES matter if there are sandbaggers...because someone trying to qualify and beat out the current 'lowest qualified score'...of course wouldn't want to be grouping and pressing to the max...especially during crunch time, like a month or a week before the cutoff date for qualifying...because that obviously reduces his/her chances of completing a game.  The more you press, the more chances you have to die. I'm kinda repeating/arguing with myself at this point though...but hopefully you get my points...and you could argue either side of this.

In the end, my vote would be for having to qualify year over year...the TG high scores list would always stay the same...but scores are thrown out every year as far as the Kong Off spots are concerned.

I would also think it should be longer than 3 months.  I'd agree with Scott, it starts the day after the previous Kong Off ends, and goes up until 1 month from the Kong Off date?

[LMDAVE]

Well, keep in mind this is a TG run tournament, so it would make since that they would refer to their own scoreboard for the top qualifiers and it also helps promote the board. When KO3 first came up , I believe Jordan said the top 12 people on the board would be in. The last kong off basically gave everyone a year to qualify. That is completely fair. So, if you didn't make the cut, it's not like you didn't have the time to do it. I don't believe in cutting it short to a small period.

I would not  say that the main qualifiers are locked in because they got a lucky score thats still sitting there. Keep in mind, Almost ALL of the contestant from KO1 were in KO2 and they all upped their scores from KO1 to KO2 to be in those positions. So, it wasn't really coincidence.

When the TG arcade scoreboard comes back, I believe this will be the verified standings:

Hank         1138K
Vincent      1136K
Jeff            1107K
Dean         1079K
Steve         1064K
Billy            1062K
Mark K       1052K
Shaun B     1037K
Steve Wilt  1019K
Dave M       1015K (This is not my high, but my highest verified on TG's board)
Kyle G        1011K

I personally plan to have my score upped before KO3, but if I do it within the next couple of weeks instead of a 3 month window before the tournament, I feel it should count. I think qualification period should start now. Just set a limit and go for it. IF you want in the tournament, you basically better aim for a 1.03M score and have it verified. I really don't see anything wrong with that.

[hchien]

And I put Vincent last because he just isn't quite as good as the guy I listed before him.

Where's the 'Like' button?

Vincent      1136K

I'd like to make a correction.   If we are rounding down (which all the other scores are), Vincent's high score is 1135K.  Thank you.

This is some great discussion about 1- What should the tournament format be? and 2- Who should have dedicated machines?  I believe most of the 3rd generation missed out on this discussion for the original KO, so it's good to see why the existing format is the way it is: 1- simplicity/easy for everyone to understand, 2- best balance of interest from the player's and spectator's perspective.  Although I'm open to other formats, I think the existing one is the best balance.

As for who should be invited, I'll stay out of that one.  It's way too controversial and too many factors to consider.  How should TG unverified scores be considered?  (What was Vincent's highest TG verified arcade score pre-KO2?  I think it was 0.)  How should MAME scores be factored in?  (The MAME players at KO2 really proved they need to be included.)  Although I will say, I'd be in favor of the high score in a window shorter than 1 year.  Why?  The KO is a 2 day event.  The pace you would play at over a 1 year window is much different from the pace you'd play at for the actual event.  At the same time, the shorter the window the more luck that is involved.  The right time frame is probably somewhere in the middle.

[LMDAVE]

How should MAME scores be factored in?  (The MAME players at KO2 really proved they need to be included.)

I think the MAME controversy kind of worked itself out, the only 3 MAME scores that were 'monkey wrenches' in the qualification were Dean, Vincent, Jeff, all who now have arcade scores above 1.075M, so by KO3 if there are MAME scores above the top arcade scores, then by all means they should be in the equation.