The Kong Off 4

[f_symbols]

I really like the idea of Bracketed play.  I think someone had mentioned a losers bracket; it would make the double elimination scheme possible.  We could also have a secondary high score and/or "other bounties" tournament going on at the same time, players could still get use out of the machines and it would give us something else to do in "down-time".  Lets be honest, there is something magical about seeing 15 or more DK cabs in a row.  \╘<Wiebe>╛<Billy>/ Maybe we could skew the payouts in favor of the bracketed tournament, but also have bounties for various scoring achievements (like 1-1, no hammer, start scores, no jump, etc.).  I also totally support the idea of players paying in to a "KO4 payout pot" as a possible entry fee for these online dealies. Maybe make them like $10 and divide it between tournament payouts, KO4 payouts and JC payouts yer

[LMDAVE]

Things to consider on a head-to-head bracket system, is how do the head-to-head games play out? Both start at the same time? Or, ONe player goes first then second player tries to beat first score? Or, Completely random depending on game open? The reason I point this out is the player who goes second has the better advantage because they know exactly what to do (pace-wise) to beat the 1st player's score.

IF both start at the same time, then machine will become open in pairs, even though player 1 ended, player 2 can still be playing under they pass the score of player one.

I would prefer this method of paired machines and both head-to-head players starting at the same time, instead of random, coin flip, or one player going before the other., etc..

[Milehighdt]

Both starting at the same time would be the way to go with the games displayed so you can see how your opponent is doing. This lets players adjust their game to fit the situation.

[Donkey Kong Genius]

I had posted this on facebook, and I may be the only player who thinks this way, but when the structure was first suggested, it raised several red flags. Of all the concerns, I will voice only one. This is probably the way it will be so I don't want to be remembered as the idiot who thought otherwise and gave an 8 point lecture on the failings of said format, and debated it hotly for pages and pages. With that said, and the lack of interest that I would have for participating in this kind of tournament, I think it comes down to simple randomness. Over the course of a weekend, people have a sampling of games that will work closer and closer towards a level playing field. Even then, there is no guarantee that one player will still get more favorable randomness than another. If I only play a total of two games, it does not matter my skill set, if the cards in the randomness is against me, then it will not be a good enough sampling of games. This would not be worth my time to compete or spend the money to attend, and not be at home making money for my family, not to mention that it will be held in November and since I work retail I will not be able to get the time off again. The key here, is sampling of games.  When I first heard about the idea, this was the element of the tournament that would get lost, and this is the element that I believe reveal a true weekend champion. Well, that is just one of my opinions. I know there are pros and cons. I just hope that we pick up more pros then we do cons. Try it out, see how it goes, and let me know.

[VON]

I had posted this on facebook, and I may be the only player who thinks this way, but when the structure was first suggested, it raised several red flags. Of all the concerns, I will voice only one. This is probably the way it will be so I don't want to be remembered as the idiot who thought otherwise and gave an 8 point lecture on the failings of said format, and debated it hotly for pages and pages. With that said, and the lack of interest that I would have for participating in this kind of tournament, I think it comes down to simple randomness. Over the course of a weekend, people have a sampling of games that will work closer and closer towards a level playing field. Even then, there is no guarantee that one player will still get more favorable randomness than another. If I only play a total of two games, it does not matter my skill set, if the cards in the randomness is against me, then it will not be a good enough sampling of games. This would not be worth my time to compete or spend the money to attend, and not be at home making money for my family, not to mention that it will be held in November and since I work retail I will not be able to get the time off again. The key here, is sampling of games.  When I first heard about the idea, this was the element of the tournament that would get lost, and this is the element that I believe reveal a true weekend champion. Well, that is just one of my opinions. I know there are pros and cons. I just hope that we pick up more pros then we do cons. Try it out, see how it goes, and let me know.

Hey Corey,

While the score quality may be effected due to more cautious play overall, we've done the high score thing - we've done it three times.  Time to mix it up. 

I agree the randomness of DK could play more of a role in this bracket style tournament than it has played an effect on the previous tournaments, but so what?  That's part of the excitement.  Anything can happen. 

Also, there's a very real chance the bracket style will reward a ridiculously consistent player more than any lucky player or any one high score, and that's a good thing.  Consistency is an important part of competitive gaming that is too often overshadowed by high-score worshiping.

[lakeman421]

It seems a lot of players are into the idea of a new structure for the upcoming Kong Off.  I think it would be great to mix it up with something new.  I can't speak for everyone, but sometimes people are a little hesitant when it comes to trying new things and may want to stick with what has been done in the past.  So the goal here would be to try and please both sides as much as possible, but obviously not everyone will be happy.  If we were to do the bracket we would need to organize it to get the whole event done in the amount of time given.  I am sure single elimination would be the most feasible way to get the bracket format done by the time the weekend is over.  Obviously players wouldn't want to travel for the possibility of playing one game.  It would be nice to be able to have another high score format where players have the chance to play through the weekend and stay competitive.  I also think keeping the emphasis on the top 12 or whatever it may be to give players something to shoot for throughout the year outside of the tournaments to keep people playing.  Those are my thoughts for now, thanks for keeping us posted and it is great to see Ritchie involved with DK players and asking for our input I can't think of a better host for the event.

[tudose]

i think this new format is interesting. players have all year to shoot for pbs, high scores, and world records whether at home, during one of the online tournaments, or at a live venue. the bracket system would definitely spice things up a little. not to say that the original format was boring in any way.

itll be interesting to see how the no-hammer brackets work out considering this system is now potentially in play for ko4.

Also, there's a very real chance the bracket style will reward a ridiculously consistent player more than any lucky player or any one high score, and that's a good thing.  Consistency is an important part of competitive gaming that is too often overshadowed by high-score worshiping.

do you think its any coincidence that wiebe brought this format back into the discussion? mr. consistency himself

[Donkey Kong Genius]

I notice that a lot of people actually like the proposed structure for the newness of the challenge. But, does it have to be completely away with the old, and replaced with the new? Or is there a kind of balance or alternate structure that could attempt to incorporate some elements from both. For example, maybe we can do the double elimination with half of us on one day, and then the other half the next day. Meanwhile, which ever players are not playing in the double elimination can still be fighting for the high score of the weekend. Then on the final day we can have the final quarter drop with the 'survivors" from the two days, and who ever wants one more shot at the high score of the weekend. I am sure there are other ways that it can all be done so that the weekend will not only test consistency.

[marinomitch13]

I'd have to say I'm with Corey on this one. I think it would be great to have the two different types of competition going on at the same Kong Off.

[tudose]

just hand willms the high score money now

[Milehighdt]

I've been thinking about this and Corey and Mitch have some good points. With people investing their time and money to get there they deserve more than one game and the level of play would suffer if players just tried to survive. I love the one on one game format but I think it should be a round robin instead of a bracket. The Olympics have been on and in the ice racing a blue line follows the racer around showing how far ahead or behind they are. If we instituted a non-poser pace requirement to the matches you could get rid of running boards. Say 100K start and 60K a level (100,160,220,280,etc) . If you fail to meet the mark at the end of a level your done. the winner would be the player with the best results head to head. Wildcard would be the downside of this since you would have to limit the entries.

[mikegmi2]

I like the idea of switching things up.  Just thinking off the top of my head, it'll be rather difficult to pull something like this off, without a large number of DK machines.  Depending on how many people want to compete...a bracketed tournament could take way longer than the allotted 'weekend' of time there is. I mean say you have 20 DK machines...what is the worst case scenario...?  All games going really long1.5-2hours...in which case you could possibly only complete 50 matches in the first day, which might only complete the first round of the bracket...using up the entire first day of the KO4.  Just doing the math...it would seem like you would either have to complete initial rounds at an earlier date...online...or extend the length of the KO4.

I'd also agree that you would have to have both players start at the same time...but implementing a 'poser pace' rule would be kinda hard to do.  That means we would have to have someone watching each match as it went on...because just missing a level points requirement by a few hundred might be easy to 'miss'...and the match continues on...and the player catches up at the next level...etc.

My idea was to add some complexity to the first day of the competition.  We still have random drawings for matches...the matches are played out...but create some sort of point system, where players get points for different things...like playing at a certain pace, 1M+ pace (making it to L12-2 with a score over 500k could net you a certain number of 'match points'), beating your opponent by over 100k nets you some match points, getting a KS nets you big match points, winning the match nets you match points....and everyone plays the same number of matches all day saturday.  The match points are added up and seedings created based on match point totals.

Sunday rolls around (single elimination day), and you eliminate the bottom chunk of players based on Saturday's performance (doing some quick math to make sure the entire bracket of Sunday's games can be played out in full)...and Sunday becomes the real deal playoffs...1 match loss and you're out.  This way, at least everyone has a full day to play and compete...and nobody is eliminated until Sunday.

I still think the hardest part to officiate is the way the matches are played out.  I feel like there will be people complaining about things like 'playing at a poser pace', people stalling (i can see how it would be advantageous to sit on the top ladder on each level...waiting for the timer to run out before completing the screen...hoping your opponent keeps running through levels with more chances of dying and their game ending before yours)...people semi-stalling (hey, im not sitting at the top ladder waiting for the timer to run out, im just running around in the middle or bottom of the screens still 'playing'...but kinda...yea i'm stalling...but not really).

Or, forget all the rules and complexity, tell everyone to man up and make the whole thing single elimination and see how it goes. L3-L4 wild barrels could possibly make the final match rather anti-climactic...the complete opposite of the goal of heads-up competition.  Remember, the average game of Donkey Kong doesn't last a minute.

[LMDAVE]

I understand the hesitancy to change it also. And the reason being is that there are several new comers that feel this may be their chance to win it this year. Yes, the "high score" thing has been done before, I some may think it is getting old to some because it has the same people in it. But, there are some new comers that are ready to make a statement with their score now.

It seems a lot are on board with a bracket system, I'm kind of on the fence on it, but I'm sure as it goes on and rules are explained more and hype about how it, etc....I may lend more towards it.

This will definitely be a contest of consistency.

[lakeman421]

One concern I would have is if there are matches and say one guy ends the game at 200k  The opponent could possible dump the game at 250k because they have already won the match and have no reason to play the game out.  There would have to be some kind of motive to get to the end or play at a high pace since people love to see kill screen games and want to watch the few people out there who can do it.  With a new system in the works you have to think of every possible scenario and how to handle them.

[LMDAVE]

yeah Robbie, thats exactly how matches will have to go, or if one player's game ends and the other is already ahead, they quit their and move on, no reason to waste time. Match was already won.

No Hammer is probably more suited for bracket challenge, because of quicker games. Straight up DK has always been about putting up a great score. I hate to see that go away, highest wins, almost like Kong Off should stay Kong off, and the new bracket challenge be something like:

November Kongness! (Play on March Madness if you didnt catch that    )

But then, two event will be hard for producers to make happen and contestants to travel, and both at the same time is probably not do-able.

Maybe alternate bracket challenge and Kong Off each year.