Argument presented by Chrisp and my response.
CHRISP SAYS: Tim, I'm not going to argue about the process and philosophy behind storytelling and filmmaking, because a person can only discern that kind of stuff themselves. Nobody is going to convince you, with the bias that you have, that it made artistic sense to omit you from the movie. You either get that or you don't. No argument can transmit that understanding. And while I don't know what the "legal" definition of a documentary is, I know that it is not the responsibility of a documentary to be encyclopedic or comprehensive. Documentary filmmaking is an art, not a science.
TIM SAYS: I am not biased, just because all the facts and documentation are in my favor does not mean I'm biased, it just means I'm in the right. I'm sorry you "think" its being biased. Here is the legal definition of the word "documentary":
doc-u-men-ta-ry (adj)
1. Consisting of, concerning or based on documented fact.
2. Presenting facts objectively WITHOUT EDITORIALIZING OR INSERTING FICTIONAL MATTER AS IN BOOK OR FILM!.
CHRISP SAYS: You asked for fact-based rationale behind why you were omitted, so I'll be more black-and-white about it. You can ignore the facts or engage them, up to you, I'm just posting this for your edification because it's been a while since anyone introduced anything new to this discussion, at least in terms of specifics and primary sources (though some great points are being made).
TIM SAYS: No, it is you who are ignoring the facts and documentation and considering the documentation in my favor, I'd hardly say the other side of the argument is rational.
CHRISP SAYS: In any case, you need to stop dropping the entirety of the blame on Ed and Seth for your score not being mentioned. Not only are they not solely responsible, I would go further to say that, of all the players involved, they were probably the LEAST responsible.
CHRISP SAYS: The fact of the matter is this: while the filmmakers didn't acknowledge you, the people in the scene didn't acknowledge you either, and that is, without a doubt, a major contributing factor for why the filmmakers made the determination that they made.
TIM SAYS: Is it not the job of the film producers to research the very subject material they themselves are documenting? Does the TG scoreboard and its ranking/verification mean anything?
CHRISP SAYS: Let's start with their official position:
CHRISP SAYS: Here's the quote from the old KoK official site (which is now gone BTW):
TIM SAYS: Yea I'll bet its gone by now!
CHRISP SAYS: "While our movie focuses on the rivalry between Billy and Steve, one other gamer has a very high-score in the Twin Galaxies database on Donkey Kong, Tim Sczerby. After repeated investigations into the validity of Tim's score, and after finding one dead end after another in our Twin-Galaxies-assisted attempts to reach Mr. Sczerby, we determined that his consistently disputed record was impossible to verify and did not merit inclusion in the film.
TIM SAYS: There's your problem right there, as it states "TG assisted attempts". A TG assisted "anything" just indicates either a 3 stooges level of bungling incompetence or deliberate cover up for their own advantage to anyone in already the know.
TIM SAYS: MY score was NEVER disputed nor impossible to verify as I always stated I have a duplicate copy of that video. I offered to show it to Walter Billy and anyone else at that time but still no interest. I'll bet not.
TIM SAYS: The only person from TG (or rather who left TG in disgust) who did show interest in seeing it and uncovering the truth of the matter was Dwayne Richards. Dwayne Richards viewed this video in 2008 and had no problem with it as I conformed to TG rules at the time.
TIM SAYS: Are you telling me that Brian Kuh is more of an expert on the matter than Dwayne Richards?! Your NOT going to tell me that are you? You better re-think that one LONG AND HARD!
TIM SAYS: Believe me, in the summer of 2007 Walter and Billy had absolutely NO PROBLEM what so ever promptly contacting me after their checks cleared. This was the first I knew there was film interest in the subject material. I was shocked they allowed my score disenfranchisement!
CHRISP SAYS: The experts on the subject of Donkey Kong, especially Brian Kuh, always referred to Billy Mitchell as the reigning champion and maintained that his unrivaled skill put him on top of the record holder chart."
TIM SAYS" There's your other problem, Brian Kuh is your ... so-called.. "expert"?! I assume he could read TG's own scoreboard at the time? One does not need to be a DK expert to look at a score board and see what the date/rankings are. Is Brian Kuh himself saying that TGs scoreboard and verification methods are meaningless?
TIM SAYS: Aside from being a sycophantic toady, I don't see what other "expertise" Brian Kuh had to offer the film. Again, your not going to tell me that Brian Kuh has more "expertise" and knowledge of the DK game play/ scoring history than Dwayne Richards?
CHRISP SAYS" So are they telling the truth, or is this smoke-screening bullshit?
TIM SAYS: Yes, I just illustrated above that this was just more smoke-screening Bullshit on behalf of TG and its toadies. Check the "official" TG scoreboard for yourself. My record breaking DK score is still dated 3 years before Steve W. submitted anything on DK.
CHRISP SAYS: The cynical view is that it's bullshit, but it's not that simple.
TIM SAYS: NO, the "factual" view is that it IS bullshit, plain and simple. Please do not try that psychological "gaslighting' by indicating that if I respond further, I'm being cynical. No, I'm presenting facts and doing a good job.
CHRISP SAYS: Some direct quotes from the movie:
Greg Bond:
"Steve deserves a lot of credit for that because he also... He also broke the record on Donkey Kong Jr. So he--he took two--He took two of Billy's titles, like, right away from him. And l don't mean to sound, you know, crude or anything. But he did. He did. Officially, he did."
TIM SAYS: This is an inaccurate statement as it is documented on TG's own "official" scoreboard as well as media attention in 2000 that I was the first to break Billys 1982 record NOT STEVE.
Brian Kuh:
"Um, for years and years, it was believed that Billy's record of 874,000 in 1982 was really the highest score anyone would ever get. And in fact, some of us have played this game every day or every week or every month since then, and no one's gotten close to that."
TIM SAYS: Again, this is your so-called "expert"?! These people can't even look at thier own "official"score board for reference or even re-read the very articals they themselves write and publicize?! This is yet another proven inaccurate statement by Brian KUH. So much for your "expert"
TIM SAYS: It was well documented on TG's own scoreboard as well as given media attention in their own archives during late 2000 that I beat Billys 1982 score on 8/16/ 2000. Keep'em comming ChrisP as I enjoy blowing holes in your argument defending KOK and TGs fraudulent actions with my facts and documentation.
Roy Shildt:
"That was the last world record that Bill ever had. That was the last one to go. He had five world records in 1985, he had the Donkey Kong, and then Steve Wiebe took it away."
TIM SAYS : These jokers your using for your defense was a HUGE mistake on your part ChrisP!
TIM SAYS: They are grossly misinformed, reading a script or just plain lying.
Again, it was well documented in CAG media at the time and even visible on TGs own "official" scoreboard for "THREE" YEARS as it is to this very day, that I was the first to beat Billys 1982 record..............NOT STEVE...this is NOT debateable!
TIM SAYS: Billy himself even stated this. As Billy called me in 2000 personally and congratulated me. The fact is Steve was never the first to beat Billys 1982 score, I was. So why am I seeing a DOC (KOK) stating for fact that Steve was the first to accomplish what I had done 3 years prior?
TIM SAYS: The film makers ARE NOT FREE TO USE "ARTISTIC LICENSE" in this content as it is a gross omission of historical fact the very subject material they are documenting is based on. Re-read the definition of "documentary" and think again.
Billy Mitchell:
"The people who could get, besides myself, that have been seen getting to the end of Donkey Kong? Gee, now that I think about it, I don't think anybody has."
TIM SAYS: This statement coming from the very same guy that called me a few years earlier and congratulated me himself for my DK accomplishment?!!....................'nuff said here. I
TIM SAYS: You picked some very,VERY weak points and character witnesses to touch on and use in your defense case ChrisP
.............keep'em comming! Its like shooting fish in a barrel!
ChrisP SAYS: And then we have Robert Mruczek, quoted earlier in this thread, who didn't exactly give your score a ringing endorsement. He talks about it in this shadowy, mysterious way: "I've never seen it, I don't know who verified it," etc.
TIM SAYS: Robert was stating he doesn't know who verified my score, but obviously someone did or it wouldn't be on the score board now wouldn't it? I'm sure Billy did not call me personally and congratulate me if it wasn't verified by someone.....think about it! I'm sure TG would not have given it media attention in CAG circles at the time if were not verified unless your implying TG its verification process, scoreboard and credibility are worthless, your not saying that are you?
CHRISP SAYS: With how suspicious Robert tends to be about everything and everyone who isn't known to the scene, I would not be surprised if he had an off-camera discussion with the filmmakers where he cast doubt on the score.
TIM SAYS: I'm Sure Robert Murczek is more than capable of reading TG's own scoreboard and determining ranking position on DK. Again the facts were always infront of them, they chose to ignore them!
CHRISP SAYS: In any case, that's five people from the scene who say, in no uncertain terms, that Steve was the one to take Billy's 1982 record.
TIM SAYS: That's five people you provided who's statements and testimonies at the time I just tore to shreds with TG's own documentation and facts! So much for your expert witnesses and your "awesome argument". Would you like me to continue?
CHRISP SAYS: That doesn't make it true of course, but THE FILMMAKERS WERE RELYING ON THESE PEOPLE FOR THEIR INFORMATION.
TIM SAYS: It is the responsibility of the KOK film makers to do their own independent research on the very material they are documenting. The fact that the KOK film makers (SETH GORDON AND ED CUNNINGHAM) obviously did not do this only proves gross their journalistic ineptitude and a 3 stooges level of bungling incompetence as well.
TIM SAYS: As "Documentarians" it is the producers job (SETH GORDON nad ED CUNNINGHAM) to look into and research facts themselves as independents, not just following gossip, hearsay and rumors from sycophantic TG cronies out to make a buck for themselves by covering up facts and exploiting someone else's subject material for themselves.
CHRISP SAYS: When they hear "Billy was the champion until Steve came along", from one person after another, is it not understandable for them to come to the conclusion that this might be true? When not a single person from the scene acknowledged you (until of course after the movie came out and everybody in it wanted to complain about how "inaccurate" it was for pointing cameras at them as they said things that they later found embarrassing), what did you expect the filmmakers to do, other than to decide that it was probably best to stick to what they could be sure of, and steer clear of your score?
TIM SAYS: This does not excuse the producers from any liability or wrong doing as it is the film makers job to research the facts themselves. Obviously they did not. This also does not excuse TG and its insiders who profited by covering up vital info in my favor the producers should've known about regarding the historical facts on the subject material they were documenting.
CHRISP SAYS: Or were all of those quotes scripted? What, was everybody in on the conspiracy?
TIM SAYS: Inlight of the facts and documentation I provided, the quotes you based your argument on were either scripted, or they were lying or just misinformed at the time. Again, you need to stop using KOK as a reference source for factual data when presenting a defensive argument on the subject.
TIM SAYS:This is your trouble.
TIM SAYS: Using KOK as your source of factual reference and historical info is your whole problem to begin with. I can't stress this enough. I'm only trying to help you present a better argument and you can't do that if everything you understand on the topic was based in a lie. Garbage in Garbage out as the programmers say.
TIM SAYS: Here is the legal definition of conspiracy:
con-spir-a-cy (n, PL.)
1.An agreement to perform together an illegal, wrongful, or subversive act.
2. A group of conspirators.
3. (Law) An agreement between two or more persons to commit a crime ior accomplish a legal pourpose through illegal or dishonest action.
4. A joining or acting together, as if by sinister design.
TIM SAYS: If the way KOK was conceived and executed was not a conspiracy by definition,then I don't know what is.
CHRISP SAYS: It wasn't a conspiracy, and there was no malice either. People either didn't realize, didn't care, or had forgotten that you'd beaten Billy.
TIM SAYS: Read the above definition of conspiracy and re-think. These same people that simply "forgot" couldn't use thier own "OFFICIAL" TG scoreboard and reference material for a reference guide? What does TG have an "OFFICIAL" scoreboard for anyway?
CHRISP SAYS: Even in this very tight-knit DK community, not everybody is aware of everything (to put it mildly). I see over and over, and am often surprised by, how much gets missed. The extent to which you have to smash people over the head with even the simplest things to actually get them into everybody's line of sight can be very frustrating.
TIM SAYS" Whats really frustrating is the fact I can prove everything and document everything I said in my defense and people still don't get it or refuse to even acknowledge it. What's more than frustraiting is these conspiritors,Walter, Steve, Billy and Steve Saunders and the films producers made a tidy penny for themselves by disenfranchising me/ my score and deliberately writing me out of the subject material I was directly and historicaly apart of at the time. They all profited as a result. How do these sociopaths sleep at night? Yet they have an anual CAG event every year in their honor?! Its absurd.
TIM SAYS: For this reason KOK will always remain a huge black eye on the honesty and integrity of arcade score keeping.
CHRISP SAYS: In any case, not everybody always knows who beat whom, where everybody stands on every high score list, etc. It's a lot to keep track of.
TIM SAYS: Then what is the use of submitting "official" scores for verification or having a so-called "official"scoreboard to keep track of them for reference?
CHRISP SAYS: The Donkey Kong world record was not on many peoples' radars in 2000. CAG as a whole was very "sleepy" at the time. Beating a (top-hammer only) world record by 5K was not huge news, and at least a couple of the people I quoted probably weren't even aware that it had happened.
TIM SAYS: If Billys 1982 score was beat by 100 pts or by 100,000 points, winning is winning.
TIM SAYS: There was media attention to my accomplishment given in CAG circles at the time and I assure you Walter Day and Billy both knew this. Again, the score to this day remains on the so-called TG "official" scoreboard. Care to take a look at the score and date...anyone?!.......anyone at all?
CHRISP SAYS: Nobody sent Greg Bond or Roy Shildt or Brian Kuh certified letters letting them know that you had squeaked past Billy (and even if they had, all of them knew that Billy's PB was higher than 879K anyway).
TIM SAYS: Why would these people need "certified letters" of me beating Billys 1982 record when all they or anyone else for that matter had to do was check the TG "official" score board and DK ranking status on thier own site...or read their own media articals?....Very simple concept here, unless one cannot read or refuses to see the facts.
CHRISP SAYS: And then in 2003 the "Billy vs. Steve" thing started, which was not, by the way, manufactured by the filmmakers. It was exaggerated and stylized a little, and simplified a lot, but it was definitely underway long before the movie was even a concept.
CHRISP SAYS: This interview is from Classic Gaming Expo, 2004. Two years before KoK. You were not mentioned in this interview either.
(Incidentally, Billy got 933K live at that very event, putting both Steve and Billy way ahead of you by the time the documentary got rolling.)
TIM SAYS: In KOK Steve is clearly setting out to beat Billys long standing 1982 record................too bad for Steve I had already done that 3 years before he did. Again, this is fact and NOT debatable. TGs own "official scoreboard " clearly indicates this. Are you saying TG was never "the official scorekeeper" and TGS credibility as "OFFICIAL" score keepers is just crud all the time?
CHRISP SAYS: Skip to 13:00. Steve describes his history with DK.
Wiebe:
"I was scoring in the 900 thousands, encountered this kill screen, I go, 'well I have to get to that level again to see what happens'. The next time I got there I had two men so I was killed twice. So then I said, 'well what's the point of continuing?', that's probably what Billy thought. So I sold it, and I was always curious what the high score was so I looked on the Internet, about 5 years ago, and Twin Galaxies had a list of scores, and I saw it was 874,000 by Billy Mitchell... and I said 'well, I know I can beat 874,000' so I went and I bought another machine off Ebay."
TIM SAYS: Remember Alexander Gram Bell and Elijah Grey? Both Gram Bell and Elijah Grey were developing at about the same time a device called a telephone. Gram Bell beat Grey to the patent office first and was "officially" granted the patent. The rest is history.
TIM SAYS: So If I make a Documentary stating Elijah Grey had beat Gram Bell to the patent office first and then exploit and I profit from the fraud, it will be O.K. with the national historical society? I think not! But after all its "JUST ART" " is it not as you said earlier. No, that excuse wont fly the national historical society. So why is the same dynamic O.K. with the gamming community?
TIM SAYS: Steve's claims on his scores at the time, true or not are hearsay and conjecture. The documented fact as indicated by TG's own "OFFICIAL" scoreboard and record archive is I beat Steve to the punch in his KOK documented quest by a few years and beat Billys 1982 record first. Guess what, Steve is Elijah Grey in this analogy. Does Elijah Grey get historical credit or profits from Gram Bells patent...NO!
CHRISP SAYS: Steve isn't lying or covering you up here because this interview is from 2004 and he said that he checked out the record 5 years before, which would be 1999, before you came along, and when Billy was still on top.
TIM SAYS: I'm not lying either when I say can prove I beat out Steves goal by 3 years...so why is KOK based on Steve setting out to beat Billys 1982 DK record and not me? ( please don't refer back to your previous argument which I factualy tore to shreads as it is no longer a defense)
TIM SAYS: Why did Steve take credit for a gaming accomplishment I did , exploit and profit from it? Why does the gaming community know this yet continue to support Steve and TG when the facts and historical documentation indicate otherwise? Just further proof of what little character Steve, Billy, Walter and TG really have.
TIM SAYS: So much for TG being the "official" score keepers/trackers huh?
CHRISP SAYS: And again, he's saying this before any movie of any kind had ever been thought of, so he's not strategically avoiding mention of you for the purpose of some grand scheme. There was no cover-up, because at that point there was no reason to cover anything up. Steve bought the machine and went after Junior and DK with the understanding that it was Billy's scores he was coming after. You came along inbetween.
TIM SAYS: O.K., but like Gram Bell did to Elijah Grey, I beat Steve to the very gaming accomplishment KOK is based on by 3 years. This is fact and NOT debatable! So Why is Steve taking credit for it and profiting from it when it was a well documented fact in CAG circles in 2000 that I had already "officially" beat Billys 1982 DK score?
TIM SAYS:This was also documented by TG themselves and placed on their own "OFFICIAL" scoreboard FOR THREE YEARS as the score to beat at the time and still remains to this day.The score and date remains on said "OFFICIAL" score board to this very day.
TIM SAYS: I will remind you again your previous argument is now full of holes and foundering faster than the Titanic at an iceberg. It was a weak defense to begin with.
CHRISP SAYS: Also, at 14:05, Steve says he bought his first DK machine in 1990, meaning that he was scoring in the 900Ks in 1990. Ten years before you took down Billy's 1982 score. I've said this before and I'll say it again: you never had the highest DK score, and you were not the first to beat Billy. Just because you appeared at the top of the TG list for a few years doesn't mean that you were the true record holder. This really is important.
TIM SAYS: Yes it is! So what you are saying in this statement is that the "OFFICIAL" TG scoreboard is meaningless and counts for nothing official when it comes to tracking scores when compared to rumors, and hearsay? Why are Steves scores taken at word of mouth face value while my "documented" and verified score 3 years before Steve submited anything on DK is lied about and discredited?
TIM SAYS: Just because Steve "claims" to have had those scores back in the day do not make them verified and official unless your implying that TG's "OFFICIAL" scoreboard was and still is meaningless crus and NOT an accurate tracking of "official" scores. Is this what you are saying that verbal statements and hearsay take priority over TG's own "official" score board?
TIM SAYS: The fact is I followed the rules, and played accordingly. I went through proper channels and submitted a documented and verified score to TG surpassing Billys 1982 DK record 3 years before Steve was documented doing anything on DK.
TIM SAYS: Again this is NOT debatable. So your telling me TG'S scoreboard counts for nothing? TG's own score board means nothing? A congratulatory call from Billy Mitchell himself means nothing? Why did Steve profit from this subject matter and not me? Again , your previous argument lays in ruin at the bottom of the Atlantic so don't make me repeat myself.
CHRISP SAYS: In fact, omitting your score is not so much a lie as a simplification, one that actually serves the truth. The real-world fact is that Steve was ahead of you the whole time. They did a lot of condensing of reality in that movie, like combining what was actually four world record submissions into one, because it was completely necessary to do that in an 80-minute film aimed at non-CAG people who don't want to hear a bunch of boring details about Double Donkey Kong that they can't even understand.
TIM SAYS: Refer to the legal definition of "documentary" I supplied earlier and then apply it to how KOK was executed. If Steve was "ahead of me the whole time", as you state then why did he not submit a score and beat Billys 1982 record before I did? Again, check your facts and history reguarding the scoring on DK. 'Nuff said here
By the way "artistic license" does not excuse a documentarian from omitting facts his material is based on..so call it "art" all you want.
CHRISP SAYS: So there you go. Ed and Seth didn't think that you were a significant part of this because the community didn't regard you as a significant part of this. Most in the community were (evidently) either unaware of you, or had forgotten you by the time the documentary got rolling. Given the circumstances of what was happening then between Billy and Steve, it's not hard to see why.
TIM SAYS: So there "you" go, a piece by piece dissection of your defense of KOK as a DOC and the actions taken by those who perpetrated it. People really need to stop using KOK as a source of factual reference material when it comes to defending the very same film. This is everybodys main problem.
TIM SAYS: Again I will ask why did both Steves, Billy and walter profited financially from disenfranchising my "verified" score that pre-dates Steves by 3 years?
TIM SAYS:Was it fair that I went though proper channels and had a verified score (see TGS scoreboard) beating Billys 1982 DK record 3 years before Steve, yet they discredit the score in favor of Steve when the subject material has interest and becomes profitable?
TIM SAYS: This is not only unfair but forever puts a huge black eye on TG as a credible source of gaming history and score keeping. So much for your "awesome argument"
TIM SAYS :As Darth Vader said after defeting the young jedi "ALL TOO EASY"
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