Author Topic: What is a "Documentary"? What is its legal definition?  (Read 41415 times)

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Offline Mary McManus

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Re: What is a "Documentary"? What is its legal definition?
« Reply #75 on: October 14, 2013, 03:03:42 pm »
The wikipedia entry on KOK updated as it is misleading and makes me out to be lying about the actual version of events...

Um... this you can fix yourself. Hint: This is the wrong website to be posting on in order to fix this!

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...and what ever payment billy or steve recieved for taking my place would be nice along with an engraved apology from Seth Gordan and Ed Cuntingham.

Not sure how we can help you here. Seems pointless to burden us with anything more than just presenting your case.

But if you're really expecting this sort of compensation, why not just sue them?

It takes money to sue.

So your basically telling me the DK community doesn't care if someone gets cheated out of a DK score and financial remuneration that comes with it?

Again I am willing to debate the facts and legality of KOK with your best, so far what I've seen here in defense of KoK ammounts to a childish  "I know you are but what am I?" response.
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V3rby

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Re: What is a "Documentary"? What is its legal definition?
« Reply #76 on: October 14, 2013, 03:08:09 pm »
No offense Tim, you achieved something huge back in the day, and i appreciate your accomplishments, but i'm afraid you're totaly overreacting.

Of course, you were the WR holder back in the day, and yeah, your name should have been mentioned, but honestly, the movie would have failed, if we had this triangle between Billy, Steve and you.

The movie tells the classic story, good vs. evil, so you wouldn't fit in, even tho you were the current WR holder.

I don't know what you try to achieve here, do you think everybody will fall onto their knees praising you as former WR holder? Do you want to convince the producers to reshoot the movie, or to give a statement that they kept you out of it on purpose?

Somehow i got this feeling, that someday, with his dying breath, Tim's last words will be "i was the guy cheated out of "The King Of Kong"."

Offline homerwannabee

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Re: What is a "Documentary"? What is its legal definition?
« Reply #77 on: October 14, 2013, 03:12:40 pm »



So your basically telling me the DK community doesn't care if someone gets cheated out of a DK score and financial remuneration that comes with it?



What exactly do you want out of the DK community?  What exactly do you want us to do.  Do you want us the next time one of us sees Billy or Steve Wiebe to tell them that Tim has a message for you, and then flip them off with both hands?

Do you want us to tell them "Hey, you really should cut Tim on a piece of the pie.  Don't you think it would be fair if Tim would get $10,000?"

Do you want us to do a letter writing campaign to Seth Gordon demanding that you be "renumerated"?

Do you want us to boycott the Kong Off since it's associated with Billy Mitchell and Steve Wiebe?

See that is the thing.  Some of us have already said.   "Yeah, you should have been included."  What more do you want from us Tim?
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Offline Xermon54

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Re: What is a "Documentary"? What is its legal definition?
« Reply #78 on: October 14, 2013, 03:16:29 pm »
Just come to the fking Kong Off 3. Otherwise, all of your talking will go to a dead end.







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corky

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Re: What is a "Documentary"? What is its legal definition?
« Reply #79 on: October 14, 2013, 03:30:21 pm »
So your basically telling me the DK community doesn't care if someone gets cheated out of a DK score and financial remuneration that comes with it?

Setting a score on an arcade game does not entitle you to any money, especially if that score was recorded over a decade ago.  Sorry you didn't get that memo.

If you really want to get paid for playing DK, go to the Kong Off and win.  It's that simple.  Or hang out on this forum, complain, and get NOTHING, because the KOK ship sailed a LOOOOONNNG time ago.

lakeman421

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Re: What is a "Documentary"? What is its legal definition?
« Reply #80 on: October 14, 2013, 03:31:03 pm »
Just come to the fking Kong Off 3. Otherwise, all of your talking will go to a dead end.

^^^^^^^ THIS

Offline marinomitch13

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Re: What is a "Documentary"? What is its legal definition?
« Reply #81 on: October 14, 2013, 03:31:11 pm »
It takes money to sue.

Then it seems like either
1) You don't care enough to put the money forward to back up what you're arguing (in which case, stop being so insincere), or
2) You just don't think you'd win (in which case, either you're actually wrong about the legal rights concerning 'documentaries', and you know it... so, again, stop being so insincere), or
3) you don't have the money to fight it (in which case, what do you want us to do? give you money to do this? sorry, but I don't think we can help you here...since most people, though they empathize, think you are overreacting)

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So your basically telling me the DK community doesn't care if someone gets cheated out of a DK score and financial remuneration that comes with it?

I never said that, nor did I necessarily imply it. However, if you want an answer, it'd be this: Most people empathize, but most people also think you are overreacting and would not fair well in a legal court if you sought compensation.

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Again I am willing to debate the facts and legality of KOK with your best, so far what I've seen here in defense of KoK ammounts to a childish  "I know you are but what am I?" response.

Can you point out when this form of argumentation ("I know you are but what am I?") has been used? I seem to have missed it. I have no clue how that sort of argumentation would even be applicable in this conversation, to be quite honest.

Also, I'm with Ken, I think your arguments as to the imposition of a dictionary-strict definition of 'documentary' onto the film industry, legally speaking, is untenable. There are so many loosey-goosey things that go on with fair-use and copyrights that I'm fairly certain that the term 'documentary' does not, by force of law, have to include every aspect of the history being filmed in a 100% truthful way. The simple economic factors alone make this impossible in many cases.

How's editing wikipedia going?  ;D
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Offline marky_d

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Re: What is a "Documentary"? What is its legal definition?
« Reply #82 on: October 14, 2013, 03:34:13 pm »
How's editing wikipedia going?  ;D

If/when this happens, could someone please let me know? Thanks
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Offline Mary McManus

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Re: What is a "Documentary"? What is its legal definition?
« Reply #83 on: October 14, 2013, 04:15:53 pm »
It takes money to sue.

Then it seems like either
1) You don't care enough to put the money forward to back up what you're arguing (in which case, stop being so insincere), or
2) You just don't think you'd win (in which case, either you're actually wrong about the legal rights concerning 'documentaries', and you know it... so, again, stop being so insincere), or
3) you don't have the money to fight it (in which case, what do you want us to do? give you money to do this? sorry, but I don't think we can help you here...since most people, though they empathize, think you are overreacting)

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So your basically telling me the DK community doesn't care if someone gets cheated out of a DK score and financial remuneration that comes with it?

Considering the facts and evidence  I have as opposed to the response I've recieved from most yes I do get that impression.

I never said that, nor did I necessarily imply it. However, if you want an answer, it'd be this: Most people empathize, but most people also think you are overreacting and would not fair well in a legal court if you sought compensation.

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On the contrary I think I would fair quite well, how ever we live in ameriKa land of the coward and home of the sucker where the almighty dollar rules and justice be damned.

Again I am willing to debate the facts and legality of KOK with your best, so far what I've seen here in defense of KoK ammounts to a childish  "I know you are but what am I?" response.

Can you point out when this form of argumentation ("I know you are but what am I?") has been used? I seem to have missed it. I have no clue how that sort of argumentation would even be applicable in this conversation, to be quite honest.

I was using an absurdity to illustrate an absurdity. The defense of KOK arguments were so feeble this was the best comparison I could think of.

Also, I'm with Ken, I think your arguments as to the imposition of a dictionary-strict definition of 'documentary' onto the film industry, legally speaking, is untenable.

The definition specificaly states in book or film...........

There are so many loosey-goosey things that go on with fair-use and copyrights that I'm fairly certain that the term 'documentary' does not, by force of law, have to include every aspect of the history being filmed in a 100% truthful way.

I think your wrong here, why else at the end of every film a disclaimer is placed as a CYA stating the events in the film are ficticious and are not meant to represent real people living or dead.

The story of Steve wiebie setting out to beat the old DK score as portrayed in the film is almost a mirrior of what I did before hand.

The simple economic factors alone make this impossible in many cases.

How's editing wikipedia going?  ;D

I know its a big joke isn't it. The real Joke is how many people watch KOK and think its a real DOC based on facts......thats the real joke.
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giv

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Re: What is a "Documentary"? What is its legal definition?
« Reply #84 on: October 14, 2013, 04:20:37 pm »
Documentary has come to mean a style of movie-making. It has nothing to do with the truthiness of the subject matter. Kind of like all those horror movies nowadays that are trying to present themselves like "look what I filmed by accident on my camcorder and security cameras." It's just an angle, an attempt to capture the public's imagination. Also professional wrestling, with the kayfabe gimmicks that are presented as real. I don't think you can sue Vince McMahon for claiming wrestling is real. Suing Vince might make a great hook for a wrestling feud one day, though.

A new pretend documentary where Tim sues the King of Kong crew might be a big hit! No one will know what's real and what's fake anymore. It'll be like Andy Kaufman all over again.

Offline marinomitch13

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Re: What is a "Documentary"? What is its legal definition?
« Reply #85 on: October 14, 2013, 04:28:59 pm »
Tim, I'm serious about the editing Wikipedia. You could do it fairly easily, and if anyone there has a beef, you can defend your case there. If you so choose, you can at least fix that element of this issue. Again, it's not that hard to do, so long as you do it in a very non-trollish and polite manner.

Ditto what George said. You didn't hear KoK winning all sorts awards that are conditioned on truthfulness, did you? Other docs win those sorts of things because they claim to be accurate -KoK didn't. And even those that do win awards that are ultimately supposed to be based upon accuracy are, often times, found out to be quite phony as well.
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lakeman421

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Re: What is a "Documentary"? What is its legal definition?
« Reply #86 on: October 14, 2013, 04:42:24 pm »
I have spent a lot of hours at Funspot and got to know the employees really well.  Some of them were there when it was filmed and they told me what they saw.  It is obvious that KOK is a movie and not a documentary, because what really happened is different from what was shown for the sake of telling a story of Good vs Evil.  Honestly playing at Funspot and hearing people talk about it all the time gets old after a while.  This is where Im coming from and when I see it being posted on here in such a hateful way, it's like enough is enough.

corky

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Re: What is a "Documentary"? What is its legal definition?
« Reply #87 on: October 14, 2013, 04:51:36 pm »
The real Joke is how many people watch KOK and think its a real DOC based on facts

That's the thing, I don't know one single person who watched KOK because they wanted to see a documentary about Donkey Kong that's 100% factual, but I know a ton of people who watched it because they wanted to be entertained.  I can guarantee that everyone who isn't into CAG (which is about 99.9% of the population) doesn't give two shits if KOK is the entire truth.  It's not like someone will write a master's thesis about Donkey Kong and use KOK as his sole source of research.

Offline ChrisP

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Re: What is a "Documentary"? What is its legal definition?
« Reply #88 on: October 14, 2013, 09:53:52 pm »
Tim, I'm not going to argue about the process and philosophy behind storytelling and filmmaking, because a person can only discern that kind of stuff themselves. Nobody is going to convince you, with the bias that you have, that it made artistic sense to omit you from the movie. You either get that or you don't. No argument can transmit that understanding. And while I don't know what the "legal" definition of a documentary is, I know that it is not the responsibility of a documentary to be encyclopedic or comprehensive. Documentary filmmaking is an art, not a science.

You asked for fact-based rationale behind why you were omitted, so I'll be more black-and-white about it. You can ignore the facts or engage them, up to you, I'm just posting this for your edification because it's been a while since anyone introduced anything new to this discussion, at least in terms of specifics and primary sources (though some great points are being made).

In any case, you need to stop dropping the entirety of the blame on Ed and Seth for your score not being mentioned. Not only are they not solely responsible, I would go further to say that, of all the players involved, they were probably the LEAST responsible.

The fact of the matter is this: while the filmmakers didn't acknowledge you, the people in the scene didn't acknowledge you either, and that is, without a doubt, a major contributing factor for why the filmmakers made the determination that they made.

Let's start with their official position:

Here's the quote from the old KoK official site (which is now gone BTW):

"While our movie focuses on the rivalry between Billy and Steve, one other gamer has a very high-score in the Twin Galaxies database on Donkey Kong, Tim Sczerby. After repeated investigations into the validity of Tim's score, and after finding one dead end after another in our Twin-Galaxies-assisted attempts to reach Mr. Sczerby, we determined that his consistently disputed record was impossible to verify and did not merit inclusion in the film. The experts on the subject of Donkey Kong, especially Brian Kuh, always referred to Billy Mitchell as the reigning champion and maintained that his unrivaled skill put him on top of the record holder chart."

So are they telling the truth, or is this smoke-screening bullshit?

The cynical view is that it's bullshit, but it's not that simple.

Some direct quotes from the movie:

Greg Bond:
"Steve deserves a lot of credit for that because he also... He also broke the record on Donkey Kong Jr. So he--he took two--He took two of Billy's titles, like, right away from him. And l don't mean to sound, you know, crude or anything. But he did. He did. Officially, he did."

Brian Kuh:
"Um, for years and years, it was believed that Billy's record of 874,000 in 1982 was really the highest score anyone would ever get. And in fact, some of us have played this game every day or every week or every month since then, and no one's gotten close to that."

Roy Shildt:
"That was the last world record that Bill ever had. That was the last one to go. He had five world records in 1985, he had the Donkey Kong, and then Steve Wiebe took it away."

Billy Mitchell:
"The people who could get, besides myself, that have been seen getting to the end of Donkey Kong? Gee, now that I think about it, I don't think anybody has."

And then we have Robert Mruczek, quoted earlier in this thread, who didn't exactly give your score a ringing endorsement. He talks about it in this shadowy, mysterious way: "I've never seen it, I don't know who verified it," etc.

With how suspicious Robert tends to be about everything and everyone who isn't known to the scene, I would not be surprised if he had an off-camera discussion with the filmmakers where he cast doubt on the score.

In any case, that's five people from the scene who say, in no uncertain terms, that Steve was the one to take Billy's 1982 record.
 
That doesn't make it true of course, but THE FILMMAKERS WERE RELYING ON THESE PEOPLE FOR THEIR INFORMATION.

When they hear "Billy was the champion until Steve came along", from one person after another, is it not understandable for them to come to the conclusion that this might be true? When not a single person from the scene acknowledged you (until of course after the movie came out and everybody in it wanted to complain about how "inaccurate" it was for pointing cameras at them as they said things that they later found embarrassing), what did you expect the filmmakers to do, other than to decide that it was probably best to stick to what they could be sure of, and steer clear of your score?

Or were all of those quotes scripted? What, was everybody in on the conspiracy?

It wasn't a conspiracy, and there was no malice either. People either didn't realize, didn't care, or had forgotten that you'd beaten Billy.

Even in this very tight-knit DK community, not everybody is aware of everything (to put it mildly). I see over and over, and am often surprised by, how much gets missed. The extent to which you have to smash people over the head with even the simplest things to actually get them into everybody's line of sight can be very frustrating.

In any case, not everybody always knows who beat whom, where everybody stands on every high score list, etc. It's a lot to keep track of.

The Donkey Kong world record was not on many peoples' radars in 2000. CAG as a whole was very "sleepy" at the time. Beating a (top-hammer only) world record by 5K was not huge news, and at least a couple of the people I quoted probably weren't even aware that it had happened.

Nobody sent Greg Bond or Roy Shildt or Brian Kuh certified letters letting them know that you had squeaked past Billy (and even if they had, all of them knew that Billy's PB was higher than 879K anyway).

And then in 2003 the "Billy vs. Steve" thing started, which was not, by the way, manufactured by the filmmakers. It was exaggerated and stylized a little, and simplified a lot, but it was definitely underway long before the movie was even a concept.

This interview is from Classic Gaming Expo, 2004. Two years before KoK. You were not mentioned in this interview either.

(Incidentally, Billy got 933K live at that very event, putting both Steve and Billy way ahead of you by the time the documentary got rolling.)

Skip to 13:00. Steve describes his history with DK.

Wiebe:
"I was scoring in the 900 thousands, encountered this kill screen, I go, 'well I have to get to that level again to see what happens'. The next time I got there I had two men so I was killed twice. So then I said, 'well what's the point of continuing?', that's probably what Billy thought. So I sold it, and I was always curious what the high score was so I looked on the Internet, about 5 years ago, and Twin Galaxies had a list of scores, and I saw it was 874,000 by Billy Mitchell... and I said 'well, I know I can beat 874,000' so I went and I bought another machine off Ebay."

Steve isn't lying or covering you up here because this interview is from 2004 and he said that he checked out the record 5 years before, which would be 1999, before you came along, and when Billy was still on top.

And again, he's saying this before any movie of any kind had ever been thought of, so he's not strategically avoiding mention of you for the purpose of some grand scheme. There was no cover-up, because at that point there was no reason to cover anything up. Steve bought the machine and went after Junior and DK with the understanding that it was Billy's scores he was coming after. You came along inbetween.

Also, at 14:05, Steve says he bought his first DK machine in 1990, meaning that he was scoring in the 900Ks in 1990. Ten years before you took down Billy's 1982 score. I've said this before and I'll say it again: you never had the highest DK score, and you were not the first to beat Billy. Just because you appeared at the top of the TG list for a few years doesn't mean that you were the true record holder. This really is important.

In fact, omitting your score is not so much a lie as a simplification, one that actually serves the truth. The real-world fact is that Steve was ahead of you the whole time. They did a lot of condensing of reality in that movie, like combining what was actually four world record submissions into one, because it was completely necessary to do that in an 80-minute film aimed at non-CAG people who don't want to hear a bunch of boring details about Double Donkey Kong that they can't even understand.

So there you go. Ed and Seth didn't think that you were a significant part of this because the community didn't regard you as a significant part of this. Most in the community were (evidently) either unaware of you, or had forgotten you by the time the documentary got rolling. Given the circumstances of what was happening then between Billy and Steve, it's not hard to see why.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2013, 02:02:00 am by ChrisP »
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Offline ChrisP

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Re: What is a "Documentary"? What is its legal definition?
« Reply #89 on: October 14, 2013, 10:11:24 pm »
I've actually been working on a shot-by-shot, line-by-line analysis of everything inaccurate or questionable in this movie.

What's incredible so far isn't how many items I'm finding, but how few.

It's freaking staggering how much CAG people exaggerate this movie's "fraudulence."

I should post the spreadsheet that Robert Mruczek sent me, which is basically a list of shot-continuity errors, mismatched B-roll audio, and things people on-camera are saying. You haven't lived until you've seen Robert argue with Roy Shildt through Excel.
http://donkeykongblog.blogspot.com

4 Quarters :-* - 800K Avg. Per Qtr. :o - No Restarts 8) - No Proof :'(

7/26/2013   Coin 35,946   710,800   18-1
7/28/2013   Coin 35,947   903,700   22-1
8/16/2013   Coin 35,948   694,100   17-6
8/17/2013   Coin 35,949   893,100   22-1

3,201,700: the $1 World Record?
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