DK Submission Rules

[corey.chambers]

Justin, I actually appreciate the questions. I think I speak for most people when I say that for the most part if a board is not identifiable then we should stay away, even if it had the same processor chip etc. I think that if we were to stick to what has been allowed is good because it is original to the game and directly from nintendo, other than the multi pcb but as I understand it the JAMMA is pretty standard.

[Shane_NC]

For the Donkeykongforum High Score list = high score save kits are allowed

For Twin galaxies = high score save kits are not allowed (however, they can be removed and replaced in 2 mins..... ie have save kit in most of time and take it out during TG submissions)

[ChrisP]

It is my understanding that Ken and other TG folks are discussing the kit issue this very month...

No bad news so far, but it helps to have one of the refs in the "yes on kits" camp.

[Shane_NC]

no, integrity in a save kit isn't questioned by anyone with any sense. Only the dumbasses that make retarded rules for DK at TG, due to its popularity and weibe submitting a legit 1m+ game that got bounced.

People have been talking about this for a while, why does DK have extra bullshit verifications and guidelines. Im not sure now, but in the past there was loads of bullshit on DK score submissions

Some of them include:
no save kits allowed
PCBs must have all original roms
4 way joystick must be verified
attract screen death must play before starts
only 1 credit could be on the machine
original nintendo power supply required

and the list of bullshit goes on and on...

The save kit is a cool investment and within 2 mins you can swap it out for submissions.

[hchien]

People have been talking about this for a while, why does DK have extra bullshit verifications and guidelines.

There are people who used to think Steve and/or Billy were cheating.  There are people who still think Steve and/or Billy are cheating.

I believe some of the rules you listed are not just for DK.  For example, I thought external kits were banned for all arcade games and the 1 credit rule was also for all arcade games.

Certainly for DK the high score kit does nothing to the gameplay.  But in theory it is running additional code and in theory it could change the timing of things or even worse-- it would make it easier for someone to program their own chip and cheat.  How do you know what code is inside that external chip (of course you could ask the same question of the "original" ROMs)?

This has been discussed before but:

4 way joystick b/c with an 8 way on arcade you can control barrels while climbing ladders (I haven't independently confirmed that)

original power supply b/c something about voltage differences causing graphics glitches

original ROMs to reduce the chance of someone programming their own chips

attract screen to make sure you are running the right ROM set (Nintendo vs Nintendo of America tells you the ROM set).

apparently some games behave differently when there's more than 1 credit.  DK isn't one of them.

[danman123456]

Well in mame playing with an 8 way doesnt do anything on the ladder except stop you moving. Perhaps its a mame thing only?

Yeah lots of rules that I don't really think makes a lotta sense. Seems the joystick and internal check may not be required anymore?

[hchien]

Well in mame playing with an 8 way doesnt do anything on the ladder except stop you moving.

Arcade and MAME are different in this respect.  This was one of the objections to Wiebe's early scores.  There were extra "clicks" while he was climbing the ladders.  He was almost certainly hitting diagonals.  In fact there's a clip in KoK zoomed in on Wiebe's hand controlling a joystick and if you look carefully he is hitting diagonals  (see [noembed]King of Kong - part 2[/noembed]).  If you did that in MAME, Jumpman would stop moving, but in Wiebe's game Jumpman keeps climbing.  The question is whether those clicks actually controlled anything.  I haven't experimented with this because it's a pain in the butt to take out the restrictor plate.  Even if it didn't control anything, there could potentially be other advantages, like "cornering" faster.

[danman123456]

Yeah the 8 way mode in mame sucked so much i turned the x-arcade into a 4 way. Much happier.

[Shane_NC]

 I have never understood the fact that world class players who have proven themselves time and time again in a live setting are considered to be cheaters. There was actually a massive discussion about this a month or so back. Hank, do you believe the submission rules for DK are not more strict than other titles? A large part of the community believes DK has been made an example of due solely to its popularity, do you think this is inaccurate?'

I think there has probably never been a documented case of someone trying to forge a DK score on video. I think stuff like this is ludicrous. Steve and Billy are  known to be great DK players, why in the hell would they cheat? It literally makes no sense.

 I think if a known great player puts a score on tape it should be excepted and not ran through a bunch of bullshit, because it is DK. For example, if Mitch or myself submitted a 860k  KS and forgot to let attract screen play or something dumb, it would be a real shame for some TG ref that knows half as much about DK as us to not accept the score over something trivial. *** It has been brought to my attention that some TG DK refs are KS players and have a lot of knowledge of the game/ community. In this case these players would realize known players within the community as capable, and would be hard pressed to decline a score from a known streamer that has proven himself repeatedly. I was not meaning to infer that refs know nothing about DK. If they are KS players and involved in the community then they know the whos who of DK streamers / players and their capabilities***



If you have proven yourself to be a good player, there shouldn't be a federal investigation over your score.

[ChrisP]

The real problem with TG's rules is that they amount to double-padlocking one door while leaving another wide open.

There are two things that TG, ultimately, can do nothing about: 1) the code for the games (at least arcade games) is stored on EEPROMS, which are a removable/rewritable medium that can be altered with zero physical evidence (so showing the board/ROMs accomplishes exactly nothing), and 2) a video recording can be doctored in a way that is not detectable.

(Our live streams are actually more secure than recordings for TG, in the sense that we have live witnesses with whom we interact.)

As for the kits, nobody has ever suggested, much less demonstrated, that the D2K or high score save kits alter the gameplay in any way. If they did, the issue either would have been spotted by now, or is so incredibly subtle that it makes no difference anyway.

But again, the "no kit" thing is another case of locking the one door while leaving the other hanging open.

I have never understood the fact that world class players who have proven themselves time and time again in a live setting are considered to be cheaters... Steve and Billy are  known to be great DK players, why in the hell would they cheat? It literally makes no sense.

I'm just gonna say this: the Billy who showed up at the last two Kong Offs did not show any evidence of being a Billy who could play out a 1.1M game at will (or play at 1.1 pace at all).

Yet we have three world record submissions in which he supposedly did so.

One finds, upon investigation, that these games were all "direct video feeds" from the game PCB, containing neither audio nor Billy, (which would never be accepted from any other player), the latter two performances were refereed by one of his best friends, and all three occurred in a context where there was oodles of motive for both Billy and TG to manufacture a new DK world record (during the filming of KoK, just after the movie's release, and the week before Billy's enshrinement in the Video Game Hall of Fame).

So, there's that...

[JNugent]

The real problem with TG's rules is that they amount to double-padlocking one door while leaving another wide open.

There are two things that TG, ultimately, can do nothing about: 1) the code for the games (at least arcade games) is stored on EEPROMS, which are a removable/rewritable medium that can be altered with zero physical evidence (so showing the board/ROMs accomplishes exactly nothing), and 2) a video recording can be doctored in a way that is not detectable.

(Our live streams are actually more secure than recordings for TG, in the sense that we have live witnesses with whom we interact.)

As for the kits, nobody has ever suggested, much less demonstrated, that the D2K or high score save kits alter the gameplay in any way. If they did, the issue either would have been spotted by now, or is so incredibly subtle that it makes no difference anyway.

But again, the "no kit" thing is another case of locking the one door while leaving the other hanging open.

I have never understood the fact that world class players who have proven themselves time and time again in a live setting are considered to be cheaters... Steve and Billy are  known to be great DK players, why in the hell would they cheat? It literally makes no sense.

I'm just gonna say this: the Billy who showed up at the last two Kong Offs did not show any evidence of being a Billy who could play out a 1.1M game at will (or play at 1.1 pace at all).

Yet we have three world record submissions in which he supposedly did so.

One finds, upon investigation, that these games were all "direct video feeds" from the game PCB, containing neither audio nor Billy, (which would never be accepted from any other player), the latter two performances were refereed by one of his best friends, and all three occurred in a context where there was oodles of motive for both Billy and TG to manufacture a new DK world record (during the filming of KoK, just after the movie's release, and the week before Billy's enshrinement in the Video Game Hall of Fame).

So, there's that...

<scratches chin>
Hmmm....
 :-\ :-\ :-\

[hchien]

Shane, yes I am on your side.  I do believe the DK rules should be more lenient.  I've probably wasted more time than anyone watching that attract mode (except maybe Dave McCrary).  I don't think DK was made an example because of it's popularity.  I believe DK has the most strict rules because it has the most controversial world record history.

Also a good DK player doesn't necessarily make a good DK referee (and vice versa).  Gameplay is only 1 part of refereeing.  Knowledge of the hardware is another.  Many players don't know the first thing about the DK hardware.  I guarantee you people like Ken House/Richie Knucklez/etc know more about the DK hardware than any of us and they are not killscreeners.  Also you'd be surprised at how much some of the referees know about DK gameplay even though they aren't players themselves.  Remember, they are watching and analyzing tapes from all players.  A good example would be Robert Mruczek (although he's no longer a ref).  He can only get about 200K in DK but he has a wealth of information all around.

[corey.chambers]

Shawn, yes, I will accept a high score kit. Reason is that the Z80 processor is still used, and as long as the rom on the kit is US Set 1 then there is no problems, as none have been recognized either. I actually have a high score kit that I am not using and probably won't use. Though when it was in once, it said that one of the roms during the checksum was bad. Not sure if that means one on my pcb or something in that one chip on the save kit? That would make a difference. Does anyone know that? If it is just in that one chip I would need to learn how to fix that before I sell it off to anyone.

[corey.chambers]

As it has been discussed in another thread concerning the possible mis-use of the 8 way joystick, and the potential advantage that it could offer, I propose an amendment to the list to be effective for all new submissions to require the 4-way restrictor plate.

[homerwannabee]

As it has been discussed in another thread concerning the possible mis-use of the 8 way joystick, and the potential advantage that it could offer, I propose an amendment to the list to be effective for all new submissions to require the 4-way restrictor plate.

No I don't think this is a good idea.  The 8 way doesn't really help anyone.  Just waiting for Donkey Kong to realease his barrel before going up is much more effective than risking Jumpman's life on an 8 way on the ladder.  I don't get it.  How is the 8 way an advantage?  It's not.  You're being ticky tack of you put this as a rule.