Elevators - Making the final run and up the ladder strategy

[John73]

I posted about this an got some answers on CAGDC, but I'm getting totally confused now.

I've previously been pointed towards a YouTube video which is kind of helpful - Donkey Kong 3rd Elevator Stage Strategy
The way I do the level currently is to wait for the spring to bounce in the middle of the left elevator mechanism and then just run like hell, try as I might, I can not get my brain to take my eyes off Jumpman and watch for another middle bouncing spring.  I could be wrong, but I also think that the middle bouncing springs are not all the same, some are lower and quicker while others seem to be a bit more bouncy if that makes sense.... of course not being a very good player this could all be in my mind.

But during the DK Wildcard on the weekend, I was talking to another player (who is around my standard but a lot better at the Elevators) who said he was given tips (possibly by Dean or Vincent) who advised him to not look where the spring was bouncing, but to look at where the spring was entering the screen to work out which one to go on and I guess when to retreat after you start your run.

Not sure if this belongs in Basic Strategy, but anyway.  Is there a sure fire fail safe way to do this bloody level?  I'll have times where I won't die for about 10 goes at this, and then I'll have games where I'll die three times trying to make this run on the first of the Level 3+ elevators.

Do the "good" players, i.e. anyone that is probably 500k or higher on DK actually ever die on this board?

[Monstabonza]

Hey mate just went looking the thread I was talking about was this one
https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=86.msg911#msg911
Hope it helps
Nick

[hchien]

So as to not confuse terminology:  A long spring is one that bounces more to the right.  A short spring is one that bounces more to the left.

Yes, you are right, there are many many different spring types.  In fact, it's better to think of the spring types as a continuous entity rather than categorically.  Some are longer, some are shorter; some bounce higher, some lower.  I believe someone tried to categorize the different spring types and gave up because there were too many types.

For beginners, I would actually recommend the opposite.  Focus on that yellow part of the left elevator mechanism.  That is the most reliable and easiest to teach method of determining what spring type you are dealing with.  After playing this board 1000's and perhaps 10,000's of times, you will begin to be able to spot a short/long spring as soon as it enters the screen.  This is not teachable (at least not by me).  I'm not even sure myself how I know.  My guess is it's the point of entry/trajectory combined with the timing of the spring.  In fact, it's probably best not to think about it.  It will come naturally.  People will describe a long spring as "more aggressive looking."  See what I mean?  It's not teachable; it just comes with practice.

It sounds like you are not able to retreat if you cannot take your eyes off Jumpman.  Some people keep their eyes on Jumpman while using their peripheral vision for the springs.  Some people focus on the springs and control Jumpman blindly.  You have to find the system that works for you.  However it is imperative that you somehow look at the following spring while running toward the final ladder.  Learning to retreat is a definite must.  It is very unlikely you will ever reach the killscreen unless you learn this.

Yes, there is a fail safe way to pass this board.   The problem is we are all prone to human error so it is impossible to execute perfectly.

1- Look for a long spring. 

2- Run. 

3a- If you get another long spring, retreat and go back to step 1.

3b- If you get a short spring, run up the ladder and finish the board.

How long of a long spring you need and how short of a short spring you need depends on many things.  (How good of a head start do you have?  Are trying to squeeze out every last 100 bonus time or just playing for safety?)  Obviously the longer the 1st spring and the shorter the 2nd spring the safer you'll be.

Everyone dies on this level.  These deaths are definitely the most frustrating since they are usually for very little points and 100% preventable.  Plus your confidence gets shot for every future elevator board in the game.  You should aim for 95%+ pass rate on this level if you want to killscreen.  The best players probably have ~99% success rate.

Someone should probably write this up formally with diagrams/videos and make it a sticky.  It's definitely an FAQ. 

[Monstabonza]

I found with the looking at the top of the elevator method but found that while I could see the second long spring I had to retreat on but the time it took to go to my brain then from my brain to my hands just wasn't long enough. After reading the other thread I got to the lvl 4 springs made a save state and just sat at the bottom not playing watching springs enter, after about 1 hour I could recognise them better. I find the long springs enter the screen as an open spring going up then close and fall where as the shorter springs enter closed coming straight across or falling down.

I still miss a lot of opertunities but defently clear it more regular now.
I've gone from dumb luck to about 75% success now.

[Fast Eddie]

yeah its definately one way or the other, trying to switch focus is a problem...

you want to start running close to the time your long spring lands its second bounce, this is quite easy to spot in your peripheral while remaining focused on the landing spot until the next spring comes, you will get a feel for how far you need to run to get under the ladder without focusing on jumpman...

 

[John73]

Thanks Nick, I'll have a look at that thread tonight when I've got a couple more mins to spare than I do atm.   Looking forward to facing off with you in the next Wildcard comp - was good fun watching a player of similar skills/high score to myself.  Granted you got to that score in a lot less time than I did.

Thanks Hank for the detailed analysis.  Perhaps my best bet will be just to save state the elevators and play it over and over and over and over.   

I feel like I get a really good jump on this level, my timing & reflexes are pretty good most of the time, so it really comes down to training myself to look at the next spring out.   When climbing ladders you don't need to be pixel perfect in order to climb, so maybe I just need to get a feel for how long I'm running right before going up and then I'll be able to concentrate more on the next spring that is coming out.

You are 100% right about the confidence thing, I seem to get nailed by a spring on either the 3rd or 4th elevator stage and then for the rest of the game I'm more worried about the next elevator stage rather than the 5 stages I need to negotiate to get there.

[Fast Eddie]

personally im always up the ladder a bit when i retreat, but i noticed some players can just dance around the ladder then climb never getting a false climb, i assume these are the guys using spring entry rather than landing spot?

[John73]

personally im always up the ladder a bit when i retreat, but i noticed some players can just dance around the ladder then climb never getting a false climb, i assume these are the guys using spring entry rather than landing spot?

I think if I'm one step up the ladder then I'm at the point of no return 

Come to think of it, maybe that is something I should be practicing - run to the ladder, take a step or two up and then retreat.

[mikegmi2]

personally im always up the ladder a bit when i retreat, but i noticed some players can just dance around the ladder then climb never getting a false climb, i assume these are the guys using spring entry rather than landing spot?

Yea, I 'dance' sometimes...if I am going for max points.  Dancing is something you can do to ensure you will pass a spring screen as fast as the game will allow.  And yes, the sooner you can recognize that a spring is going to be long, the easier it is to do this 'dance'. 

I've never measured in any way, but I believe all of the springs are exactly the same...as far as how high they bounce and everything.  The only difference between springs are the points on the horizontal axis where they bounce.

Long springs 'look' like they bounce higher, but I don't believe this is the case.  It's somewhat of an optical illusion based on observing how much higher a 'long' spring is vertically, when it enters the screen from the left...and also when it comes in contact with the ladder you must climb to finish the level.

The springs are essentially bouncing in a perfect parabolic series.  All springs. Long springs are bad (arguably impossible) to finish the level on, due to the fact that the vertex of their bounces reach the highest up the ladder...giving them the best chance of hitting you.

The shortest springs are shifted left, as far as where their bounces come in contact with the floor (compared to long springs).  They come out lower when they enter the screen, and are on the downslope in their parabolic bouncing pattern.  Some think these shortest springs are the best springs to go on, but the first time you get a bad jump and get hit on the right foot by a short spring bouncing up at you...you'll realize the best springs to go on lie somewhere in-between.

I've called these springs the 'sweet spot' springs in other posts.  As far as categorizing as long/short...they are somewhere between medium/short.  The sweet spot springs give you the best chance to climb the ladder successfully becasue the vertex of their parabolic bounces are '1/2-the-width-of-the-parabola-itself' distance away from the centerpoint of the ladder...which means one of their bounces hits directly in the center of the ladder...essentially giving Jumpman the maximum amount of time to safely make his way up the ladder without being hit by the spring.

You can even have a bad jump, or have your hand slip off the controller for a fraction of a second...and still make it up the ladder safely if you go on a sweet spot spring. 

In the end, it's easier to simply go on any and all short, medium, medium/short springs...after a long spring.  You can make it up safely on any of these...and the faster you make it up...the more bonus left on the timer, which means more points.

[mikegmi2]

Obviously the longer the 1st spring and the shorter the 2nd spring the safer you'll be.

The longer the 1st spring, yes this is the safest spring to go on because it allows you to get the best jump...or be the furthest to the right...closest to the ladder essentially...when you start your run to and up the ladder.

The shortest short springs are still dangerous...as they can still hit you on the up-bounce if you don't get a decent jump.

If the vertical distance that Jumpman must climb from the floor, to the top of the ladder is 10 units (0 units being the floor, 10 units being the point on the ladder where the level is completed)...then I would estimate the longest spring can reach around 8-9 units up the ladder...and the shortest spring can reach around 4-5 units up the ladder...still dangerous.

The 'sweet spot' spring, I would say can reach 1 unit up the ladder, maybe 2 units...which would be essentially equal to the vertical size of a spring's hitbox.

Something to point out...in the grand scheme of things, assuming you will always get about the same 'good' jump after a long spring passes...any short/medium spring will work...and allow you to safely pass the level...but the shortest short spring is much more dangerous than a 'somewhat short' or 'medium/short' spring.

Disclaimer: I am assuming all springs bounce in the same perfect parabolic pattern.

[Fast Eddie]

I think if I'm one step up the ladder then I'm at the point of no return 

Come to think of it, maybe that is something I should be practicing - run to the ladder, take a step or two up and then retreat.

yes id definitely recommend you practice this, if you are focusing on the spring landing spot i think you really must be getting up the ladder a bit before reacting to the next spring otherwise you are getting a bad jump every time. if you are going to wait until you know it is a friendly spring before you start climbing you need to be recognising the friendly spring before it bounces otherwise youll barely make it past the medium spring and will be vulnerable to the extra short springs upbounce Mike is talking about...

retreating from on the ladder is not something to be to worried about pulling off, as long as you do react you have decent margin for error, you can be quite far up and still manage to retreat...and once at the bottom of the ladder you only need to barely press left, you dont even need fresh air between you and the side of the ladder to be safe from an oncoming long spring!

 

[danman123456]

Yeah someone should make a good video detailing this. Most are not that good. I wouldn't mind doing this but if I record this in Twitch whats a good tool to"edit' the video with so I can annotate certain spots on the screen and comment/note it? Never really tried this. I finally feel I have the elevators down pat at this point. I don't even look at "jumpman" anymore. My focus is strictly on the springs. You can go safely with a good jump up until about halfway on the yellow girder (At least that is where I feel safe if I get a "good" jump at it).

[hchien]

Obviously the longer the 1st spring and the shorter the 2nd spring the safer you'll be.

The shortest short springs are still dangerous...as they can still hit you on the up-bounce if you don't get a decent jump.

I knew I'd get called out on this.   

[mikegmi2]

Haha, didn't mean to call anyone out...and I guess in a way you could argue that your statement is true from a "recognizing that the next spring after a long spring is safe to go on" perspective.  It's much easier to recognize that a super short spring is in fact 'short', and safe to go on...than discern a short/medium spring from another long spring.

[TheSunshineFund]

When my brother and I first started clearing the 3rd elevators regularly back in the late 80's, we surmised that if we kept an eye on the springs entering the screen and if they entered "faster" or as Hank described it "more aggressively" they were bad to go on.  We didn't call them "long" or "short" but rather "faster" or "slower".   You can wait for the ultimate "fast" or "slow" spring to recognize, it's the in between versions that can be difficult.   After seeing KoK many years later it became much more clear to me how the screen should be played.