Ideas for DK levels and game mechanics

[tudose]

excellent work, good sir

[xelnia]

I'll look into adding a 7th digit for the arcade port.  There are plenty of point pressing opportunities in the game (with hammers on the elevator level, the re-cycling of barrels in the spring+barrels level, hammers on the same platforms as the fireball spawning oil cans in the new cement level...) so I imagine it is foreseeable that eventually there may be a million point game.

It has the same L22 killscreen, the levels up till then are completable in the allotted time, the number of stages per level has the same "2,3,4,5,6,6..." pattern (the stages themselves vary - 3 types of barrel stages, 2 cement stages, 2 elevator stages, 3 types of rivet stages)

This is a pretty cool remix. It's much more dynamic and faster-paced than D2K: Jumpman Returns and if it gets ported back to arcade/MAME I think more people will play it.  I did manage to get it working in the MESS emulator. My previous comments in this thread about colors and input lag are all irrelevant now since those things are adjustable in the emulator. Overall the game is very difficult, but that's fine. If you don't mind I'd like to point out a couple of things:

1) The spring-barrel stage is hard as f*ck...maybe too hard to be "fair." If you get delayed in any way it becomes an avalanche of barrels. Exciting, but brutal.
2) I'm not sure what your intent was on the new rivet stages, but they seem to be very puzzle-like. As a result of the falling platforms, it seems like there is really only one "correct" way/path to finish them. That's not really a problem, I think, but it could create a scenario where once everyone figures out the pattern it's just a matter of hoping the fireballs spawn in the right place.
3) There might be a bug in one of the rivet levels. If you look at the highlighted portion below you'll see two platforms. If Jumpman walks off the top platform to the bottom, he dies. But if he jumps from the top to the bottom, he lives. Again, I'm playing in an emulator, so take that for what it's worth.



Great stuff, all around, and I really enjoy playing it.

[Sock Master]

Thanks!   The feedback is much appreciated.   I guess there is a good thing about making it on the CoCo first - it gives me the chance to iron out the glitches in advance, before it becomes locked down as ROM in actual DK cabinets.

(1-Spring-barrel) I can make adjustments to the rate at which DK releases barrels.  It's already adjusted down from DK standard - it starts slower than normal at LV1 and by LV5 it's at DK's normal release rate, but I can adjust it so it never quite reaches 'normal' on the spring+barrels stage.

(2-Rivets) You can take out the rivets in any order (*except generally that last unreachable one).  You can even make one of the upper floors fall onto a lower floor.  The Firefoxes have the ability to jump up or down a step too.    I'm sure someone will figure out the ideal order to complete the new rivets stages, but it isn't something set in stone.  The level design complication is that if the floors fall, it makes it much more complex to design a level where the player won't feel trapped at the edges if the middle floors are gone...

(3) ...Which was why I put that extra little platform at the right - to have a place to escape to if Firefoxes are climbing the ladder..  And oops, that is indeed a bug.    I'm going to need to think about that one..  You just discovered a way to cheat on that level that I didn't expect.  It's an interesting cheat too, and... It already happens to be programmed in such a way that the level completes and the ending scene works properly.
Here's the setup: Climb up and pull the top/left rivet beside DK.  Then perform the bug to get to the ladders to reach the top/right rivet beside DK.. Pull that rivet.  Bingo, You've completed the level.   DK falls a short fall, bashes his head and Jumpman is reunited with Pauline.

I didn't expect that to be possible on that level, but I had added some extra code....just in case.  If somehow, someone pulled the rivets out of DK's floor...and the floor fell, but the stage did not finish, you'd be left with DK floating there in mid-air for the rest of the level's play time... which would be a bug of unacceptable levels.   So, in that event, it counts the board as completed.  It calculates how far DK should fall, and just does the ending cinematic as normal except for adjustment to how far DK falls.

So, it's cool.. but still a bug.  My options are to fix it so Jumpman dies like he's supposed to when he jumps down 2 rows.  Or move that platform up one row (not a good solution because it doesn't fix the underlying bug).   Or leave it like that, but then you have the possibility of trapping yourself unable to complete the level (also not a good solution).    I guess the answer is to fix the safe jump-down distance so Jumpan dies, maybe also move the platform up one row so it doesn't tempt players to jump.

Thanks again!  That is exactly the sort of constructive criticism/feedback I'm looking for to find issues with and to improve the game.

Oh.  I tried playing it in MAME/MESS and yes my controller did seem a bit laggy.  There's a convoluted way to configure the keyboard to work as the joystick and that seemed more responsive.   I also found if you make a 2nd copy of the coco3.zip rom file in the roms directory, and rename the 2nd copy to coco3h.zip, it'll allow MAME/MESS to emulate a CoCo 3 with a 6309 processor instead of a 6809 processor - and the game will run at a slightly more fluid frame rate.

[xelnia]

Oh.  I tried playing it in MAME/MESS and yes my controller did seem a bit laggy.  There's a convoluted way to configure the keyboard to work as the joystick and that seemed more responsive.   I also found if you make a 2nd copy of the coco3.zip rom file in the roms directory, and rename the 2nd copy to coco3h.zip, it'll allow MAME/MESS to emulate a CoCo 3 with a 6309 processor instead of a 6809 processor - and the game will run at a slightly more fluid frame rate.

Cool! I'll give this a try. I'll keep playing and see if anything else interesting pops up. Great work, sir.

[f_symbols]

[Sock Master]

I've updated the file on my web page:
http://users.axess.com/twilight/sock/dkremix/index.html

I fixed the alternate rivets stage bug (Jumpman now dies like he's supposed to if he jumps down from the topright platform.)

The barrel release rate in the spring+barrel stage starts a bit slower, and increases more gently as the internal difficulty increases.   It won't actually hit maximum release rate until L-09 in the game.  (Level and internal difficulty level both act upon the barrel release rate in this level.)   That should reduce the avalanche of barrels.

Plus a few other tweaks to the internal rules.

[xelnia]

I've updated the file on my web page:

I played through the update on my stream:

http://www.twitch.tv/xelnia_games/v/9677936

Two things that jump out at me:

1) Two times in this game I dropped a rivet platform without grabbing a prize and the prize just floated in mid-air until the end of the stage.

2) The remixed pie factory might present a far higher percentage of impossible scenarios than is reasonable. If the separate fireballs each camp out along the various paths to the top, there is nothing to be done. I would also consider rethinking the fireball behavior at the top of the pie factory. Requiring Jumpman to climb all the way to Pauline to finish the level is cool, but allowing the fireballs to climb to the top conveyor as well as back down just compounds the "impossible scenario" problem. Contrast with D2K where you still have to climb to Pauline, but the fireballs are restricted from climbing the retractable ladders.

Also, Wes asked for a 7th digit in the score. I have a hard time seeing anyone getting a million in the remixed version, but if the original version is still playable then that would work.

[Barra]

13:30
 

[marinomitch13]

What's up with not getting any points for jumping that barrel on the very first hammer grab?

[Sock Master]

xelnia,

Nice.  I'm going to watch the video a few more times and make notes.  I can spot a few areas I can make some adjustments to balance out the difficulty.  The video really helps.

-I think if you set "AD Stick X Digital Speed","AD Stick X Autocenter Speed" (and for Y as well) to 100 in MAME/MESS, it should improve the controller's response time - Might help with the jump back over a pulled rivet before the floor falls.   I'm probably going to increase the delay before a floor falls just to make that jump easier to pull off.

-The floating hat...  I should move it elsewhere so it won't be subject to anti-gravity.   It seems a bit silly to code a gravity routine just for the prizes even if it would look cool to see the hat gently flutter down.

-The remixed pie level is too brutal.  I have to think of something to ease it up.   I gave the fireballs the ability to climb down from the top so they wouldn't camp out above and prevent  the player from reaching Pauline.   They even have a reduced probability of going up in the first place.  On a positive note, DK does not go all the way to the left or right sides on the conveyor - DK won't crush Jumpman when he climbs those ladders and he won't get crushed at the sides if he misses a chance up Pauline's ladder.

-You can influence the direction of the barrels falling down the center in the barrels+spring stage.  I may ease the barrel release rate some more, or maybe adjust their probability of heading toward the spring.


I know the behavior rules/logic/probabilities because I wrote them and this makes it difficult for me to gauge how difficult the game will be for others.  I'm not the best DK player, but I can complete the new barrel+spring stage without much difficulty at any level.  The new pie level, though... that one kills me often at higher levels - that one is plain too murderous.   I do 'alright' at the new rivets stages, but I spotted a couple of things I can adjust to give the player more options to avoid fireballs.   The new elevators stage seems fine.  Both elevators stages do change subtly when you see them again at higher levels - that makes them a little tougher later on.  I seem to do ok at making it to the top - I mostly have trouble making it up Pauline's ladder beyond L4, but that is unchanged over the original game so I figure this is alright.

I'm wondering, is it really hard because it's new... and nobody's learned tricks yet?  Was the original DK too hard in the beginning, but seems easier now because players have developed strategies and experience?

[DaLar]

I also played some CoCo3,, very fun sir

www.twitch.tv/dalar75/c/7011006

[ChrisP]

it gives me the chance to iron out the glitches in advance, before it becomes locked down as ROM in actual DK cabinets.

I wasn't expecting more than a MAME hack!

You're going to be up against a technical roadblock if you actually want to get this going in a cab, namely that this monster won't fit into the ROM space available on a DK PCB. A daughter card would do it (like with D2K), but then somebody would have to design/manufacture the hardware for that.

Do you have a plan on that level?

[xelnia]

Another question: is there a way to go back into the DK Remix settings menu without restarting the whole game? I can't figure out how to do it...

[Sock Master]

DaLar, Oh, very nice.  I'm enjoying watching the video.  It gives a good insight on how players react to the new levels.  I also like how you're trying ways to break and find tricks in the game - I didn't even know about that broken ladder glitch.  I assume that's possible in Donkey Kong/Crazy Kong?  Would that work on broken ladders only under specific conditions?

ChrisP, The original DK hardware has an empty, unused ROM socket meant for the diagnostic ROM, correct?  That would give an additional 4K of ROM space for the game code.  That should be just enough space.   As yet, I have only an apples to oranges comparison to estimate how much larger the game will get because the CoCo has a 6809 CPU instead of a Z80 CPU, but the CoCo version grew by about 4K between original and remixed.

xelnia, No.  It would have been nice if it could go back to the menu, but the menu code gets wiped once the game starts because the game needs that RAM to run.  There wasn't enough free space in the memory map to retain the menu after the game starts.

[up2ng]

I'm wondering, is it really hard because it's new... and nobody's learned tricks yet?  Was the original DK too hard in the beginning, but seems easier now because players have developed strategies and experience?

Sock Master -- This looks quite excellent so far.  I can't wait to play it.  I had the same thought that you are having above, and I feel like you should hesitate to make anything easier just for the sake of making it easier at this point until you've had a longer period of testing from various players and have accumulated more feedback.  If something is truly broken or has some poor game play design that can be improved then that's great, but generally hard yet fair is good for arcade games.  They are supposed to eat your quarter after all. 

What specifically happens when you change the "remix" and the "difficulty" settings in the menu?  If you do decide to make a change to some of the boards to make them easier, perhaps you should consider maintaining the original code as a harder difficulty setting that an arcade owner can adjust as players begin to get too good at the game like many games have.

I love the comment that it appears you have created NINE different internal difficulties while progressing through the game!  This is fantastic, and I would encourage you to create even more board variations if possible, or perhaps just more internal difficulty settings so that it becomes outrageously difficult (but still possible) later in the game.  Staying with the idea of a Level 22 killscreen is great also IMO, and so perhaps one plausible idea is to have 21 distinct internal difficulties so that the boards play slightly differently throughout the whole game!  Have you considered the possibility of changing Level 22 so that the game has an ending instead of the classic kill screen ending from the original DK?

I am so psyched about this game.  Great work on this and looking forward to seeing and playing the finished product.