Removed Junior scores from the past

[marky_d]

I was curious if anyone had any insights or thoughts about why some DKJr scores were removed from the Twin Galaxies high score database years ago, and never reinstated. There may be one or two more I'm not remembering, but these are scores that came after Billy Mitchell's 957k record from late 1982 that appeared in various gaming magazines which used TG as a source:

999,200   Tim Williams   8/83
1,017,300 Joe Malasarte  10/83
1,259,300 Calvin Frampton 1/84

If the argument was made that these scores were deemed impossible, I could see The Frampton score meeting strong scrutiny at the time, but the other two? It seems strange that they would have been removed as they weren't suspiciously huge increases, and other sketchy (and in other cases impossible) scores achieved on other titles were allowed to stay, with some still remaining to this day.

I would especially like to hear Tim Sczerby's opinion on the subject.

[f_symbols]

 ╘<Tim>╛

[ripper]

I was curious if anyone had any insights or thoughts about why some DKJr scores were removed from the Twin Galaxies high score database years ago, and never reinstated. There may be one or two more I'm not remembering, but these are scores that came after Billy Mitchell's 957k record from late 1982 that appeared in various gaming magazines which used TG as a source:

999,200   Tim Williams   8/83
1,017,300 Joe Malasarte  10/83
1,259,300 Calvin Frampton 1/84

If the argument was made that these scores were deemed impossible, I could see The Frampton score meeting strong scrutiny at the time, but the other two? It seems strange that they would have been removed as they weren't suspiciously huge increases, and other sketchy (and in other cases impossible) scores achieved on other titles were allowed to stay, with some still remaining to this day.

I would especially like to hear Tim Sczerby's opinion on the subject.

What year were the scores removed?  During my time at TG I don't recall this happening.  And your certainly right about there being no reason for the scores to be removed as they are all possible even though, like you said, the 1.2M score in 1984 probably didn't happen.  I really doubt people were into point pressing that much back then.  I would imagine, back then, that reaching a million or the KS would be the goal.  And if they didn't know the game had a KS then why point press at all, right?  You never know but I have my doubts about it.

[marky_d]

What year were the scores removed?  During my time at TG I don't recall this happening.  And your certainly right about there being no reason for the scores to be removed as they are all possible even though, like you said, the 1.2M score in 1984 probably didn't happen.  I really doubt people were into point pressing that much back then.  I would imagine, back then, that reaching a million or the KS would be the goal.  And if they didn't know the game had a KS then why point press at all, right?  You never know but I have my doubts about it.

I don't know the exact dates they were removed, but they at one point were all listed at TG verified scores and none of them lasted more than 2-3 months for some reason. I know most players weren't aware of the killscreen back then (I certainly never heard of it), but probably most of the top contenders were aware of it since it was discovered at the TG event in November 1982. I just find it curious that a coveted 1m threshold game was "never verified" when many players were so close at the time.

[marky_d]

For what it's worth, Joe Malasarte scored 97,500 on DKJr as part of the That's Incredible Invitational qualifiers on Jan 9, 1983, with the overall top score being 564,600 by Matt Brass. So nine months had passed before his alleged 1 million game made it's way to the TG database. That would have been plenty of time for him to improve his game and up his score, so I can't imagine it was removed based on how low his live performance score was. He certainly wasn't an unknown player at the time either since Walter apparently invited him to the competition. His 97,500 performance still stands as his score in the TG database.

[colecomeister]

Necro-bump:

The lost DK Jr scores are receiving some renewed attention at TG. Thought I'd share some of what was discussed here directly, but for reference here's the direct link (discussion starts on page 2):

https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/214252-More-Shenanigans-with-Respect-to-DK-Billy-and-Possibly-Walter-as-Well-these-from-1983-!!

Much like this topic, it was pointed out that the top 5 scores on the Twin Galaxies International Scoreboard for February 1984 didn't find their way into the TG database circa 1997-98 when TG relaunched:

Calvin Frampton - 1,259,300
Bill Langdon - 1,147,700
Jeff Morehead - 1,018,900
Joe Malasarte  - 1,017,300
Greg Winnert - 999,900

For reasons that aren't entirely clear (although perhaps related to settings?), Frampton's score isn't reflected on the Amusement Players' Association International Scoreboard which basically succeeded TG, Bill Langdon assumes first place and is published in 1987 and 1988.

We know that a lot of original TG records/documentation (however it was organized) was destroyed when TG shut down, but the bulk of the arcade content survived - along with most of the DK Jr scores referenced here - as it was carried forward as the APA International Scoreboard, and later the US National Video Game Team scoreboard. (EDIT: Tim McVey stated that there wasn't a big or organized transfer of info from the USNVGT scoreboard to the relaunched TG) So the key moment would be the creation of a TG database circa 1997-1998, and how information was fed into it. At this point, we don't know if scores that were included in an information transfer were consciously excluded for whatever reason from the DB or simply that Walter et al were working with surviving TGIS newsletters that pre-dated the top 5 scores cited here.

[colecomeister]

I didn't follow the TG scene closely back in the day so I'm not sure how widely known some of the lore is within the community, so apologies in advance if I'm repeating stuff --

In reference to the Frampton discussion, there were two interviews (one with the Miami Herald, the other with Videogiochi) that Mitchell gave in early 1984 following a Coronation Day event in Ottumwa. In both, he references achieving a 1.2 million point game in Donkey Kong Jr. (albeit one paper made a name mix-up). Given the controversy around Frampton's score, I found this revelation surprising but ultimately we have two players indicating they were scoring 1.2 million games, albeit Frampton's score was accepted onto the TGIS, the implication is that Mitchell's 1.2 million game was at the time of publication a personal best. Additionally, it demonstrates acknowledgement of Frampton's score on the TGIS.



1) "Teen Videogame wizard vies for electronic donors" (The Miami Herald, 13 Jan 1984)

[In reference to travelling to Ottumwa for the Coronation Day tournament]:

"'I [Billy Mitchell] had to go there and set records in front of witnesses so they couldn't be contested,' he said, ticking off his other high marks: 909,000 at Donkey Kong, 1,214,000 at Pac-Man Jr. and 703,000 at Ms. Pac-Man."

We'll circle back to the Pac-Man Jr aka Jr Pac-Man record of 1.2 million.

2) Videogiochi, April 1984 issue. The excerpt below relates to Mitchell:

https://archive.org/details/Videogiochi_N.14/page/n113/mode/2up?q=twin+galaxies

"Quali sono i giochi di cui detenete il record mondiale?

Bill - Pac-man e Ms. pac-Man con I punteggi, rispettivamente, di 3 milioni e 300 mila e 874,300; Donkey Kong, con 909,000; Donkey Kong Jr., con un milione e 200 mila; Centipede, con 25 milioni di punti. Il mio record di Donkey Kong Jr ora ? stato battuto ma ho intenzione di riprovarci presto e riconquistare il primato.

[Google translation follows:]

What are the games that you hold the world record for?

Bill - Pac-man and Ms. pac-Man with the scores, respectively, of 3 million and 300 thousand and 874,300; Donkey Kong, with 909,000; Donkey Kong Jr., with one million 200 thousand; Centipede, with 25 million points. My Donkey Kong Jr record has now been broken but I'm going to try again soon and regain the record."


When viewing the two articles together, it appears to me that the 1,214,000 million Pac-Man Jr score was actually a mixed-up reference to his Donkey Kong Jr score.