Donkey Kong Forum
General Donkey Kong Discussion => General Donkey Kong Discussion => Topic started by: Mary McManus on August 25, 2013, 07:04:59 pm
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My new submission rule is this ,
If a player cannot average 55k per level after level after L=5 and up the score does NOT qualify.
There are too many people running the boards just to simply place and god help them if one of the more talented players that connects with a L=22=1 game.it would be murder!
My rule would be to be able to average 55k per level starting at L=5 to qualify.this will all but eliminate the hacks that simply run the boards to get a score placement
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this is the one of the most retarded things ive read in a long time. why would you call anyone that enjoys playing donkey kong a "poser" or a "hack"? this community is full of great people no matter what their current PB is or how they choose to play within a tournament's rules. get real
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You do realize that originally Hank Chien than was a poser, and a hack since originally he ran the boards? Also, if you just run the boards it's almost impossible to get anything better than a 35th place score. So already in order to get a really, really good score you need to go the extra mile by getting the bottom hammer or barrel grouping.
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My new submission rule is this
What would you require for the score at the start of Level 5? It wouldn't happen to be exactly 100,000 points would it? Because 100,000 + (55,000 x 17)= 1,035,000...plus whatever you squeeze out on 22-1. That would be a pretty convenient cut-off score for the hacks vs. champs.
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I just don't consider it unfair when some hack runs the boards and ends with a high 800k/low 900k game ( still a considerable accomplishment 15 ,20 years ago) and finishes higher than someone with a 1,050,000 or 1,100,000 pace game ending at 600k or 700k.
This might be the rule that lights a fire under Steve Wiebies and Billy Mitchelles butt to actually "play" for a record rather than just show up for a photo op and a kill screen. God knows they got paid enough for that fake DOC they concocted, they least they can do is try.
I'd rather see people try thier best than just place high.Ben Falls coul'dve won the last on, but unlike Billy and Steve,Ben actually played for as high as he could get.the breaks were against him. But one canniot say he didn't try.
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Did you seriously just call people posers posting as a woman? Douche.
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P2dose I would hardly call my statement retarded..........especially since your WR in crazy Kong was almost beat by my 662,xxx game a few weeks ago at L=22-1 ( and yes I can clear the L=22-1 "Kill Screen" in crazy Kong for an extra 15k points ending on the riviet board at L=22-4) but this would've violated TG rules at the time.............but since TG is nolonger the official score keeper I will assume employing the trick at L22-1 is now acceptable..........which I will use next time for an extra 15k points before the actual kill screen which is the L=22-4 rivets.
If anyone could understand the logic behind my statement I would've assumed it would be one of the higher ranking players such as yourself.
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Settle down Tim. ;D
Think of it as a battle of wits. It's part of the competition whether or not one wants to play it safe or risk it for more.
And, lets just be honest here... most people have the same innate potential to play at a 1m+ pace, but it's just a matter of time for them to tap into that potential. In this sense, those that actually can play at a 1m+ pace, actually have an almost 'unfair' advantage in that they have typically had more time of playing the game under their belt. Yeah, some of this time depends upon how diligent certain players have been at putting in the time, but, generally speaking, there still is the advantage. Some people have had decades of time to choose to play the game, others have only even known about the game for a few months. It doesn't make much sense to handicap even more the people that are relatively newer to the game.
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I assume you are referring to the online 'open' tournaments. Although it's not a bad idea in theory, there are many problems with it. Ideas like this were tossed around for the first Kong Off but ultimately it was decided to make it highest final score regardless of pace.
First some people simply cannot play at this pace. If you were to enforce a pace, it would exclude many people which somewhat defeats the purpose of an 'open'.
It would greatly complicate matters (refereeing would be a nightmare) and would create many 'what if' scenarios. What if someone was averaging 55K per level until L21 when they got nervous and only got a 50K level 21. Would that score be disqualified?
Also why 55K? Why not 52.5K or 57.5K or 60K? 55K is somewhat arbitrary. I'm sure Dean would love a 60K per level tournament.
In the end it becomes part of the strategy. You have to figure out what's the highest pace you can finish a game within the time frame allotted. It's not good strategy to play 'all out' for these tournaments. I've seen Ben play at much higher pace deep into the game so even Ben was holding back in that game. Was his game the 'best' game of the weekend? Probably but he didn't finish it so he didn't deserve to win. Same thing happened at KO1 and 2. At KO1 Dean had a 900K game on pace to beat me but he didn't finish it and at KO2 Dean and I both had 900K games on pace to beat Jeff. Were they better games than the winning games? Maybe but by the rules they didn't deserve to win.
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My rule would be to be able to average 55k per level starting at L=5 to qualify.this will all but eliminate the hacks that simply run the boards to get a score placement
This seems way too lenient to me. I'm thinking the rule should be to average 60K per level with a 140K start. Anything less than that is 2nd tier at best.
But seriously, high score wins. Is that so hard to understand? If you can play at a higher pace, and sustain it without dying, you'll score higher. If you can't and score lower, you lose. At this point there is enough talent that someone who just runs boards isn't going to even win one of the online qualifiers, much less the Kong Off main events.
DK actually has a great event now, the Kong-Off, to "separate the posers from the actual champs". If you're an actual champ show up, delivery under pressure on a real cabinet without much time, and beat the best.
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I will preclude my statement by saying that your OP (original post) was easily the most shortsighted and arrogant thing I've ever heard, so I doubt you will value the input of a "hack" whose pb was achieved just running the boards...
I scored a 690,900 at over 1.035M pace in the WCQ2 and THAT WAS MY CHOICE.
I CHOSE to play at a high pace
I CHOSE to potentially lose to people of lower skill level
I CHOSE to go big and increase the level of difficulty of my game
I CHOSE to accept the fact that I would likely be beaten by less skilled individuals, simply due to statistics.
If you CHOOSE to play at that high of a pace and come up short, then maybe you just aren't good enough. That's how I felt, after I didn't get 1.035M+ in the WCQ2.
Rather then directing your self-dissatisfaction outward on the community, perhaps try putting it toward something PRODUCTIVE or POSITIVE, such as figuring out what kept you from reaching level 22 in your WCQ2 attempts.
All you had to do was make it to the end, and then you wouldn't have a soap box to stand on here, DO YOU SEE THE IRONY OF YOUR RIDICULOUS SUGGESTIONS. Just play a game to the end and let your SCORE DO THE TALKING.
I in no way support the separation of the DK community, you trying to tell someone how to play is SOCIALISM. From now on mary, I suggest we should only count scores from you that were achieved at a scoring rate of greater than 58K per level after level 19, unless you can show you are wearing a dress, then I will accept 57K, but the dress must be yellow and ITS A GIVEN THAT YOU MUST GO FOR TOP SHELF and your computer monitor can't be sideways, etc...
The above statement is about as logical as your OP.
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I am an actual champ, I actually "earned" my place in the games history unlike Steve Wiebie who shows up with his movie pals and simply buys it like a loaf of bread or carton of milk and exploits it for his own gain.
Walter, Billy and Steve Saunders were too busy cashing their payoff checks to do any fact checking or to even care. Keep in mind these are the same people who claim to be "gaming historians"...(yea go figure)
I was playing the game long before it became popular and trendy thanks to the fraudulent DOC.
Its sad to see such a blind cult following. But guess what, when the KoK movie crooks want to re-boot the subject material, its going to be someone else with the higher DK score that gets shafted next time with ........."We just can't verify Hank or Deans score as they are constantly disputed and we have no way to contact them).......... meanwhile Billy and Steve will be cashing their checks and not care................yes history will repeat itself.
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I am an actual champ, I actually "earned" my place in the games history
... by running boards.
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I am an actual champ, I actually "earned" my place in the games history unlike Steve Wiebie who shows up with his movie pals and simply buys it like a loaf of bread or carton of milk and exploits it for his own gain.
Walter, Billy and Steve Saunders were too busy cashing their payoff checks to do any fact checking or to even care. Keep in mind these are the same people who claim to be "gaming historians"...(yea go figure)
I was playing the game long before it became popular and trendy thanks to the fraudulent DOC.
Its sad to see such a blind cult following. But guess what, when the KoK movie crooks want to re-boot the subject material, its going to be someone else with the higher DK score that gets shafted next time with ........."We just can't verify Hank or Deans score as they are constantly disputed and we have no way to contact them).......... meanwhile Billy and Steve will be cashing their checks and not care................yes history will repeat itself.
Dude, you arent the champ of shit. Your score that got dropped from KoK has been topped by at least 35 players, probably over 100 from BITD...
You are a cry baby and as you can see from the overwhelmingly negative response to your first ever post here, The DK community is above you and your cry baby bullshit.
Grow up. If you want to be part of this new group and be accepted you will have to change your tact, if not you'll be back playing in your basement in your tightie whities, submitting tapes of scores nobody cares about to get yourself a sweet 20th place...
-Ken
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I am sorry that you are upset about what happened to you. I empathize with you. I would not want that to happen to me. Unfortunately there is nothing that can be done about what happened in the past. It happened. It had positive and negative effects. We must embrace the value that is there, the good that has been done, and forgive where we have been overlooked. But looking forward, what can we do about that?
First, we must get passed the old emotions and embrace the facts. I don't think there is a single person in this community that does not understand what happened, and who can truly appreciate the fact that you once held the World Record. This community is evidence-based and historical in all that it does. The history of the World Record is definitely recognized by us as noted in this blog spot post: http://donkeykongblog.blogspot.com/2011/12/donkey-kong-world-record-history.html. (http://donkeykongblog.blogspot.com/2011/12/donkey-kong-world-record-history.html.)
Second, we will only draw negativity to ourselves if we beginning speaking in the manner as is contained in this original post. It is unclear what is meant by a submission rule. Are you talking about TG, or the High Score Lists that I manage, or the open tournaments?
Third, I don't think of the community as a blind cult following lies. I think of us as enjoying a game, and spending time together while doing it, making friends, and coming together for a common purpose. I created the High Score List because I wanted to support the hobby, I wanted the girls to look at names on the High Score List and say "hey, I see you are good at Donkey Kong". In reality, I wanted to support people who liked the game. I didn't care about their pace, their high score, or their skill level. I cared about them and that is where it starts. Once I got to know people, and connect with them, I began to think of ways that I could help enhance their enjoyment of Donkey Kong. So I created the high score lists to help people track their progress, I created training videos to assist people with new ideas, I am creating a website to further give to the community as a whole. Serving people, making friends, enjoying healthy competition, encouraging one another... this is what I think we are about.
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This thread has inspired me to redouble my efforts to start a dick-measuring contest where consistency is the big factor.
"Pace" is so 2012. ;D
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I am an actual champ, I actually "earned" my place in the games history
... by running boards.
By running boards yes........and so did Billy in 1982.
A lot of the point pressing used today most likely would not be allowed by TG back then. It would just be point leaching.
I am an actual champ, I actually "earned" my place in the games history unlike Steve Wiebie who shows up with his movie pals and simply buys it like a loaf of bread or carton of milk and exploits it for his own gain.
Walter, Billy and Steve Saunders were too busy cashing their payoff checks to do any fact checking or to even care. Keep in mind these are the same people who claim to be "gaming historians"...(yea go figure)
I was playing the game long before it became popular and trendy thanks to the fraudulent DOC.
Its sad to see such a blind cult following. But guess what, when the KoK movie crooks want to re-boot the subject material, its going to be someone else with the higher DK score that gets shafted next time with ........."We just can't verify Hank or Deans score as they are constantly disputed and we have no way to contact them).......... meanwhile Billy and Steve will be cashing their checks and not care................yes history will repeat itself.
Dude, you arent the champ of shit. Your score that got dropped from KoK has been topped by at least 35 players, probably over 100 from BITD...
You are a cry baby and as you can see from the overwhelmingly negative response to your first ever post here, The DK community is above you and your cry baby bullshit.
Grow up. If you want to be part of this new group and be accepted you will have to change your tact, if not you'll be back playing in your basement in your tightie whities, submitting tapes of scores nobody cares about to get yourself a sweet 20th place...
-Ken
O.K. "DUDE"..............
and yo "DUDE"........... where were these 35 other people 13 years ago before KOK........"DUDE?
Oh ,that's right they weren't there ..........and neither was Steve Wiebe..........but I was.
So why am I seeing a film claiming to be a documentary Stating that Steve was the first to break Billys 1980's record?
Why did I see my legit score lied about and covered up?
Why did these people get paid money based off something I actually did?
And can you tell me why my score was dropped?
6 years latter, and I have yet to get a straight answer from the so-called "experts" and "Officials" I don't think I'll get one.
I'ts dirty politics like this is why Guinness dropped TG.
You can say crybaby all you want and imply immaturity by saying "grow up"
I'm just standing up for myself and rightfully so.
Also are you implying that someone who plays at home is not as good as one that spends hundreds of dollars to travel just to do the same thing?
Since when did playing in a crowded arcade become a rule for submission?
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O.K. "DUDE"..............
and yo "DUDE"........... where were these 35 other people 13 years ago before KOK........"DUDE?
Oh ,that's right they weren't there ..........and neither was Steve Wiebe..........but I was.
So why am I seeing a film claiming to be a documentary Stating that Steve was the first to break Billys 1980's record?
Why did I see my legit score lied about and covered up?
Why did these people get paid money based off something I actually did?
And DUDE, who gives a fuck besides you?
Steve is one of the nicest guys in the hobby, PERIOD. You are a negative, energy sucking troll and THAT is your answer to why you were dropped. If you truly cannot see that then you have some serious self help work in front of you.
You wont get away with the same antics you pull all over the net here, this community is far more knowledgeable than you about all things DK. Many MANY smart, qualified and HAPPY players hang out here. Take your SHIT attitude back to alt.rec.whateverthefuck and come back when you have learned some social grace.
-Ken
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I'm just standing up for myself and rightfully so.
You are defending yourself, and I don't think anyone here has a beef with that. We understand that you got screwed by KoK. We all recognize your past achievements and understand that most of KoK was staged/phony/bunk/etc.
However, as per the original post of this thread, you're not just defending yourself... you've also proposed some things... some things that would bring others down and handicap them. I think these ideas are shortsighted, and I doubt anyone would agree with you on this matter. Just don't take our disagreement on this issue to mean we reject all of your opinions (like how you got edited/written out of KoK). In the same way in which treating point pressing as leaching, or saying a game has to be played at a live venue for it to count, requiring a minimum pace is, likewise, silly. Leave the qualifying standards as fair and open as they can be.
On another note, it's nice that you've finally gotten out from behind your alias. Now... officially... welcome to the forums, Tim!
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O.K. "DUDE"..............
and yo "DUDE"........... where were these 35 other people 13 years ago before KOK........"DUDE?
Oh ,that's right they weren't there ..........and neither was Steve Wiebe..........but I was.
So why am I seeing a film claiming to be a documentary Stating that Steve was the first to break Billys 1980's record?
Why did I see my legit score lied about and covered up?
Why did these people get paid money based off something I actually did?
And can you tell me why my score was dropped?
6 years latter, and I have yet to get a straight answer from the so-called "experts" and "Officials" I don't think I'll get one.
I'ts dirty politics like this is why Guinness dropped TG...
This was CLEARLY the issue all along.
WHICH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH the people who play the game now. We can't fix your "past wrongs" and this "deviation" from your OP shows that it was unbiased, based on resentment and clearly a personal grudge. WE are NOT TG, or the People who chose to make a movie. This thread isn't about your "omission" from the KOK, it's about you trying to tell people how to play, which you have no right to do.
Stop Changing the Subject, if you want to talk about the nasty Hollywood folk, start another thread.
What happened to you in the past, in NO WAY JUSTIFIES your desire to dictate how others can play the game. Go back to your hole in the ground, unless you have something constructive to add to this community.
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O.K. "DUDE"..............
and yo "DUDE"........... where were these 35 other people 13 years ago before KOK........"DUDE?
Oh ,that's right they weren't there ..........and neither was Steve Wiebe..........but I was.
So why am I seeing a film claiming to be a documentary Stating that Steve was the first to break Billys 1980's record?
Why did I see my legit score lied about and covered up?
Why did these people get paid money based off something I actually did?
And can you tell me why my score was dropped?
6 years latter, and I have yet to get a straight answer from the so-called "experts" and "Officials" I don't think I'll get one.
I'ts dirty politics like this is why Guinness dropped TG...
This was CLEARLY the issue all along.
WHICH HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH the people who play the game now. We can't fix your "past wrongs" and this "deviation" from your OP shows that it was unbiased, based on resentment and clearly a personal grudge. WE are NOT TG, or the People who chose to make a movie. This thread isn't about your "omission" from the KOK, it's about you trying to tell people how to play, which you have no right to do.
Stop Changing the Subject, if you want to talk about the nasty Hollywood folk, start another thread.
What happened to you in the past, in NO WAY JUSTIFIES your desire to dictate how others can play the game. Go back to your hole in the ground, unless you have something constructive to add to this community.
I wasn't trying to be condesending or dictitorial in the original post.
I'll re-phrase it. I thought that those who can set a good pace should be recognized and placed somehow even though they may end up with a lower score. Risk vs. Reward factor.
Rather than a rule how about a bounty for the best average pace starting at level 5?
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Has anyone seen my pants?
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Alright, I may catch some flack for this, but I am going to play devil's advocate here.
First off, I can say here that everyone respects your abilities as a player and your place in history. You were playing the game, and were dedicated to it when few others were. You are definetely part of the old school in a good way. You are a big name player within the DK community and the "folklore" involed with Donkey Kong. Here, at the DKF, - more than anywhere else in the world, we understand what happened in KoK and how you got shafted on that end. As a documentary I believe at bare minimum you deserved an honorable mention if not a lot more than that. We all know you were the ORIGINAL KING OF KONG.
I believe it's possible I know what you were impling by your original post. Since the Kong Off is billed as the Super Bowl/Olympics of Donkey Kong it only seems right for all dedicated players to play at a 1m+ pace and possibly be able to actively challenge the WR. That is excited and would demonstrate the best of the "sport that is DK".
However, you choose your words very poorly. I think a lot of people took that very personally. You really did a bad job of expressing your opinion in a way that wasn't going to spawn a nuclear meltdown. You brought that on yourself. I am CERTAIN you could have worded it in such a way as to not envoke the response that you have recieved. Just check the paragraph above. Some people might have disagreed, but not in the snakebite fashion you see.
I personally think you are a good person to have here at the DKF. You are THE Tim Sczerby, a big name within the DK community. Everyone knows who you are. And you are one of the undeniable godfathers of Donkey Kong. I think having you around could lend a cool perspective on the game, and I wouldn't mind getting past all the bullshit and just talking to you and picking your brain on strategy. AS IM SURE MANY PEOPLE WOULD.
However, since you came off on such a bad foot, just man up and apologize for the poor choice of words, and LETS ALL PUT THIS SHIT BEHIND US. I personally would like to have you around , have everyone chilled out, all wrongs forgiven and we can get back to DK with another valuable addition to our community. Because this is all about Donkey Kong and our love for the game, we are all the same in that regard be it champion or newbie.
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I assume you are referring to the online 'open' tournaments. Although it's not a bad idea in theory, there are many problems with it. Ideas like this were tossed around for the first Kong Off but ultimately it was decided to make it highest final score regardless of pace.
First some people simply cannot play at this pace. If you were to enforce a pace, it would exclude many people which somewhat defeats the purpose of an 'open'.
It would greatly complicate matters (refereeing would be a nightmare) and would create many 'what if' scenarios. What if someone was averaging 55K per level until L21 when they got nervous and only got a 50K level 21. Would that score be disqualified?
Also why 55K? Why not 52.5K or 57.5K or 60K? 55K is somewhat arbitrary. I'm sure Dean would love a 60K per level tournament.
In the end it becomes part of the strategy. You have to figure out what's the highest pace you can finish a game within the time frame allotted. It's not good strategy to play 'all out' for these tournaments. I've seen Ben play at much higher pace deep into the game so even Ben was holding back in that game. Was his game the 'best' game of the weekend? Probably but he didn't finish it so he didn't deserve to win. Same thing happened at KO1 and 2. At KO1 Dean had a 900K game on pace to beat me but he didn't finish it and at KO2 Dean and I both had 900K games on pace to beat Jeff. Were they better games than the winning games? Maybe but by the rules they didn't deserve to win.
I think I should've rephrased my title better. It was not meant to be condesending or dictitorial, I don't always word smith things. I thought it would be benificial to some of the players that really do go all out to have thier score pace/ potential recognized even if they finish with a lower score than others who just try for distance.
There seems to be a bounty for just about every scoring aspect, so why not this one?
And yes after 6 years
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The specifics would have to be hammered out, but I think a pace bounty is actually a great idea.
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I love running the boards; I find this more ENJOYABLE than point pressing.
If it wasn't for KoK I would never have started playing. Yes it may be fabricated, and events missed out, but it got a lot of people interested in DK.
I want to compete in the up-coming open qualifier in October. I have no way of getting to The Kong Off but it is one way for me to be involved. I will likely run boards first before trying to point press. I want to get a single man kill screen. I don't know what sports you Americans play but isn't it like some teams take risks and some play it safe; different styles to try and get the best result. For me, running the boards has been a way to develop my skill level.
Awesome post Corey.
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I am sorry that you are upset about what happened to you. I empathize with you. I would not want that to happen to me. Unfortunately there is nothing that can be done about what happened in the past. It happened. It had positive and negative effects. We must embrace the value that is there, the good that has been done, and forgive where we have been overlooked. But looking forward, what can we do about that?
First, we must get passed the old emotions and embrace the facts. I don't think there is a single person in this community that does not understand what happened, and who can truly appreciate the fact that you once held the World Record. This community is evidence-based and historical in all that it does. The history of the World Record is definitely recognized by us as noted in this blog spot post: http://donkeykongblog.blogspot.com/2011/12/donkey-kong-world-record-history.html. (http://donkeykongblog.blogspot.com/2011/12/donkey-kong-world-record-history.html.)
Second, we will only draw negativity to ourselves if we beginning speaking in the manner as is contained in this original post. It is unclear what is meant by a submission rule. Are you talking about TG, or the High Score Lists that I manage, or the open tournaments?
Third, I don't think of the community as a blind cult following lies. I think of us as enjoying a game, and spending time together while doing it, making friends, and coming together for a common purpose. I created the High Score List because I wanted to support the hobby, I wanted the girls to look at names on the High Score List and say "hey, I see you are good at Donkey Kong". In reality, I wanted to support people who liked the game. I didn't care about their pace, their high score, or their skill level. I cared about them and that is where it starts. Once I got to know people, and connect with them, I began to think of ways that I could help enhance their enjoyment of Donkey Kong. So I created the high score lists to help people track their progress, I created training videos to assist people with new ideas, I am creating a website to further give to the community as a whole. Serving people, making friends, enjoying healthy competition, encouraging one another... this is what I think we are about.
Thank you Corey, I didn't mean for the post to sound the way it did , then everyone including myself went on the defensive.............and old phobias were triggered again. I can see how it could be misunderstood.
What I was trying to say is how about a seperate catagorey or submission for high pacing games.
or bounty? That way the people that want to go all out can do so. It takes some effort to really press for points........luck as well.....
13+ years ago ,with some skill ,..and interest that hardly anyone had for the game, running the boards was enough, but with all the good players that have cropped up in recent years, using point pressing (or leaching) the bar is raised...........I don't see it getting much higher.......the end is near.
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P2dose I would hardly call my statement retarded..........especially since your WR in crazy Kong was almost beat by my 662,xxx game a few weeks ago at L=22-1 ( and yes I can clear the L=22-1 "Kill Screen" in crazy Kong for an extra 15k points ending on the riviet board at L=22-4) but this would've violated TG rules at the time.............but since TG is nolonger the official score keeper I will assume employing the trick at L22-1 is now acceptable..........which I will use next time for an extra 15k points before the actual kill screen which is the L=22-4 rivets.
If anyone could understand the logic behind my statement I would've assumed it would be one of the higher ranking players such as yourself.
So you're saying it's not "Mentally challenged" because you have a good chance at beating Phil at Crazy Kong despite him having a score that is 50k higher than yours on Donkey Kong. So by that logic nothing I ever say is dim-witted because despite the fact I don't have the highest score on Donkey Kong 690k no one can come close to my Donkey Kong 3 score. So na ner, na ner, boo boo.
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Hey Tim, welcome to the forums! Like I mentioned in my comment on Cat's TG article, it was really great to be able to see you play during the WCQ #2, hope to see you around here more and more in the future! :D
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Rather than a rule how about a bounty for the best average pace starting at level 5?
Now THAT is a suggestion I can fully support.
The specifics would have to be hammered out, but I think a pace bounty is actually a great idea.
Me too, Chris.
As for the details, there are 2 that immediately come to mind:
Future Death Point Values
As I see it, this is a non-issue. If we're looking at a player's "final" pace (at the beginning of the stage where the final death occurs), the points from deaths 1-3 have already been determined.
Mid-Game Strategy Shifts
There will likely be a variety of opinions on this one. How do you measure the "huge start, then run boards" approach of Player A, against the "warp to L05, then double hammer" strategy of Player B?
Personally, I like Hank's suggestion of using the least squares regression line.
This whole idea should encourage some lively debate, and deserves a thread of its own.
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Hey Tim cool to see you posting! I watched you play for a bit on Sunday, saw you pull off some crazy wall jumps, good stuff.
Yea I agree with you, it would be cool to incorporate some sort of bounty or category for people that go all out...although I think it would be tough to do and manage...for some of the reasons Hank already mentioned. Certainly do-able though, with a few added rules.
There's always the situation(s) where low scoring/high paced games can get ignored because most people just look at the final score.
I didn't have much time to play in this last tournament, just a few hours on Sunday. My best was 600-something k...I believe played at around a 1.05M pace. Funny thing is I think I died twice before L4 in this game...but I wasn't restarting since I had limited time.
Anyhow welcome...and see you around the forums.
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Rather than a rule how about a bounty for the best average pace starting at level 5?
Now THAT is a suggestion I can fully support.
The specifics would have to be hammered out, but I think a pace bounty is actually a great idea.
Me too, Chris.
As for the details, there are 2 that immediately come to mind:
Future Death Point Values
As I see it, this is a non-issue. If we're looking at a player's "final" pace (at the beginning of the stage where the final death occurs), the points from deaths 1-3 have already been determined.
Mid-Game Strategy Shifts
There will likely be a variety of opinions on this one. How do you measure the "huge start, then run boards" approach of Player A, against the "warp to L05, then double hammer" strategy of Player B?
Personally, I like Hank's suggestion of using the least squares regression line.
This whole idea should encourage some lively debate, and deserves a thread of its own.
Would there be a cutoff for games being considered for this category? For example, even if you had a huge pace going, if you didn't even make it half way through the game, it doesn't count? 2/3 of the way?
Judging between an 850k game that ended on 18-2 (1,049,300 pace ) and a 940k game that ended on 19-6 (1,048,800 pace)?
One made it slightly farther into the game, another had a slightly higher pace? Who wins? What if it's even closer?
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Wow, I haven't been visiting the forums as regularly as I used to and this is certainly an interesting thread.
Welcome to the forums Tim, I've always respected your game, and understand your KoK issues, but never understood your hatred towards Wiebe. Most here know him and know his game is beyond real, and he's proved it live many times.
As far as pace vs. actual score, that's something some off us have been dealing with for a while. Going back to KO1 where I flopped (but my pace was good), to KO2 where my top game was 847K but had that game reached the killscreen it would have been #3 in the tournament. Just like my personal best I've sitting on for 1 year. 1.026M dying on level 21-2. It would have topped Steve and Billy's current PB had I just finished those last few boards...and I've been living with that for one year now. Now my 1.026M is mixed in with those who caught up now.
But, in the end, it's my own fault for not duplicating the game after all this time. I can't explain it, it's frustrating, as much as we all understand pace, when it comes to tournaments, it just can't used. You have to give credit to the guy who actually finished.
LOL, we all remember the old tortoise vs the hair cartoon. Even though the rabbit was always faster, he couldn't finish.
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I relish being a DK nit.
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Would there be a cutoff for games being considered for this category? For example, even if you had a huge pace going, if you didn't even make it half way through the game, it doesn't count? 2/3 of the way?
That's a good point, Mike. I would probably recommend L12 as the bare minimum requirement for levels completed, although any choice is bound to be somewhat arbitrary.
Judging between an 850k game that ended on 18-2 (1,049,300 pace ) and a 940k game that ended on 19-6 (1,048,800 pace)?
One made it slightly farther into the game, another had a slightly higher pace? Who wins? What if it's even closer?
That's a much tougher one. I anticipate 2 main arguments:
The Purist Point of View
Assuming the pace calculation has been precisely defined, and that both players have completed the minimum number of levels (or boards, or whatever), the higher pace wins, whether the difference is 200 points or 50K. Using a baseball analogy, let's say Player A and Player B are in a tight race for the AL batting title, so close that their averages must be extended to 4 decimal places. Player A has an average of .3428 (192 hits, 17 HR, 84 RBI). Player B's average is .3426 (227 hits, 48 HR, 135 RBI). Player A is the league batting champion. The fact that Player B has more hits, and superior power numbers, is completely irrelevant. Player B may very well be unanimously voted the league's MVP, but he does not win the batting title.
The "Too Close to Call, We Need a Tiebreaker" Point of View
If Player A has a higher pace than Player B, but the difference is less than XXX, a tiebreaker is invoked. Player B wins the bounty if his/her score exceeds that of Player A by more than YYY, or has successfully completed at least ZZZ more stages than Player A, or both.
Personally, I favor the purist argument. It may be brutal, but if the rules are clearly defined, it is what it is. In my opinion, the tiebreaker parameters (XXX, YYY, and ZZZ) are too arbitrary and subjective.
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I relish being a DK nit.
Ok, I think I've got it.
If the "pace race" ends up being a photo finish, let's award the bounty to whoever has a higher Kangaroo score (verified) within the past 12 months. That should make everyone happy. ;)
Geez, why didn't I think of that sooner?
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Yea I agree with your "Purist" point of view for the most part...but almost feel like certain situations would have to be considered further.
I mean, if the cutoff is, let's say, 12-2, to be considered as an actual 'high pace' game...what if pace of 2 scores is within a few hundred or 1000 points...but one guy made it to 12-2, another made it to 20-2. The guy that died on 12-2's pace was like 300 points higher than the guy that made it to 20-2.
Now what? = )
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I am sorry that you are upset about what happened to you. I empathize with you. I would not want that to happen to me. Unfortunately there is nothing that can be done about what happened in the past. It happened. It had positive and negative effects. We must embrace the value that is there, the good that has been done, and forgive where we have been overlooked. But looking forward, what can we do about that?
First, we must get passed the old emotions and embrace the facts. I don't think there is a single person in this community that does not understand what happened, and who can truly appreciate the fact that you once held the World Record. This community is evidence-based and historical in all that it does. The history of the World Record is definitely recognized by us as noted in this blog spot post: http://donkeykongblog.blogspot.com/2011/12/donkey-kong-world-record-history.html. (http://donkeykongblog.blogspot.com/2011/12/donkey-kong-world-record-history.html.)
Second, we will only draw negativity to ourselves if we beginning speaking in the manner as is contained in this original post. It is unclear what is meant by a submission rule. Are you talking about TG, or the High Score Lists that I manage, or the open tournaments?
Third, I don't think of the community as a blind cult following lies. I think of us as enjoying a game, and spending time together while doing it, making friends, and coming together for a common purpose. I created the High Score List because I wanted to support the hobby, I wanted the girls to look at names on the High Score List and say "hey, I see you are good at Donkey Kong". In reality, I wanted to support people who liked the game. I didn't care about their pace, their high score, or their skill level. I cared about them and that is where it starts. Once I got to know people, and connect with them, I began to think of ways that I could help enhance their enjoyment of Donkey Kong. So I created the high score lists to help people track their progress, I created training videos to assist people with new ideas, I am creating a website to further give to the community as a whole. Serving people, making friends, enjoying healthy competition, encouraging one another... this is what I think we are about.
Thank you Corey, I didn't mean for the post to sound the way it did , then everyone including myself went on the defensive.............and old phobias were triggered again. I can see how it could be misunderstood.
What I was trying to say is how about a seperate catagorey or submission for high pacing games.
or bounty? That way the people that want to go all out can do so. It takes some effort to really press for points........luck as well.....
13+ years ago ,with some skill ,..and interest that hardly anyone had for the game, running the boards was enough, but with all the good players that have cropped up in recent years, using point pressing (or leaching) the bar is raised...........I don't see it getting much higher.......the end is near.
Thank you for your thoughts. One idea that Ethan and I have on the table until after the Kong Off and I get the new website off the ground is the idea of having player ratings. We have thought about having some different types of ratings such as tournament scores, or one on one challenges etc. That way, we could assess the stats of a game and use that, their high scores, etc, to calculate a player rating so that consistency will say more than a one time high score. It is still on the drawing board. This would help to show the overall ability and pace of a player more than a high score. The Rating idea may be time consuming and may seem impractical at present but if we were to work out a detailed, easy to use system, it may be very possible.
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Yea I agree with your "Purist" point of view for the most part...but almost feel like certain situations would have to be considered further.
I mean, if the cutoff is, let's say, 12-2, to be considered as an actual 'high pace' game...what if pace of 2 scores is within a few hundred or 1000 points...but one guy made it to 12-2, another made it to 20-2. The guy that died on 12-2's pace was like 300 points higher than the guy that made it to 20-2.
Now what? = )
Yeah, the more impressive game is a no-brainer, but I don't want to be the guy who decides where to draw the line.
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would create many 'what if' scenarios.
The 12-2 idea is flawed. You might as well consider it highest score at 12-2. It's like comparing a half-marathon to a full marathon.
The idea of incorporating pace is not a bad one (as I said in my original post), it's the implementation of it that's a problem. I wish the old TG forums were still up... I'd link to the discussion there.
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i dont really think ranking based on pace vs getting further in the game/scoring higher can work, as it gets silly, like the examples above...
i think the best way this would work as a contest would be a simple straight up high score challenge, but your game must meet a L5+ level average to qualify, 55k is a good number...
8)
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I'm against a "pace" contest. I guess if it's just a bounty for the fun of it, then ok, but not to have a ranking system for it.
Think of a 400m foot race. Someone can start off full speed and be ahead of everyone, and collapse before the end and say, "If I would have finished I would have had the world record". If you choose to play at a higher pace, you need to accept the fact that reaching the end is going to be a long shot, just as if you choose to run the boards, you have to accept your score may not be high enough when you reach the end. You need to find that happy medium (tournament pace) that gives you the best of both worlds.
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I'm against a "pace" contest. I guess if it's just a bounty for the fun of it, then ok, but not to have a ranking system for it.
Agreed. Everything I've posted in this thread is strictly within a bounty context.
If you choose to play at a higher pace, you need to accept the fact that reaching the end is going to be a long shot, just as if you choose to run the boards, you have to accept your score may not be high enough when you reach the end. You need to find that happy medium (tournament pace) that gives you the best of both worlds.
Regarding the WCQ tournaments, this pretty much sums up everything that needs to be said.
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I am an actual champ, I actually "earned" my place in the games history
... by running boards.
Haha, thanks Chris, that just made my day ;-).
I understand kok was a pain in the ass for you, but if you start hating on Steve Wiebe openly, people will start hating on you. Period. I don't think of anyone that actually "hate" or even "dislike" Steve Wiebe (no homo).
Everyone is free to play at the pace they want to play, and they have to deal with the probabilities of getting screwed while trying a big pace. At the Kong Off 2, I was a pussy and play at a barely 1m pace, while Jeff and Dean decided not to be a pussy and play at a decent pace. They took some risks by doing that, but they did very well, but it could've ended bad for them also.
And yeah, you were once the King of Kong with a score of 879k. From today's criteria, this score is now shit, and it's been proven that everybody that care a little bit about the game can score higher than that (no offense to you and to any other kill screeners, it's obviously still an achievement, but it's still shit in my opinion, haha).
That being said, you have the opportunity to start something new with Donkey Kong, Tim. It's now your chance to prove that you can be the best by today's criteria. If you can't prove that, then it might be because you were just a one hit wonder.
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I'm against a "pace" contest. I guess if it's just a bounty for the fun of it, then ok, but not to have a ranking system for it.
Think of a 400m foot race. Someone can start off full speed and be ahead of everyone, and collapse before the end and say, "If I would have finished I would have had the world record". If you choose to play at a higher pace, you need to accept the fact that reaching the end is going to be a long shot, just as if you choose to run the boards, you have to accept your score may not be high enough when you reach the end. You need to find that happy medium (tournament pace) that gives you the best of both worlds.
i agree. i think tournament pace is a great way to put it. being able to spend months or even years going for a 1.1m-1.15m-1.2m+ score is a lot different than having 2 days to place within a qualifying tournament structure. i dont see the need to go for a 1.1m score when you know the score to beat is 1.02m in terms of qualifying but i have nothing against the people that want to play like that. ross probably couldve won(or VASTLY improved his chances of winning) this previous tournament if he had toned the pace down from 1.15m+ to 1.03m but thats just not his style. hes an absolute beast. thats how he chooses to play...
he was in the manhole last night playing live on an arcade machine and was on pace for the arcade WR at 15-6/780k when some retard fireball managed to sneak under his hammer. again he couldve toned it down and tried for a top12 score and qualified for ko3 that way, but thats just not the way ross plays. hes definitely one of the most entertaining players in the community when it comes to skill/pace and just being hilarious to watch
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Ross doesn't care about getting in the top 12. He just wants to play YOLO and even add some decent swag to it. And I do respect that! ;)
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And yeah, you were once the King of Kong with a score of 879k. From today's criteria, this score is now shit, and it's been proven that everybody that care a little bit about the game can score higher than that (no offense to you and to any other kill screeners, it's obviously still an achievement, but it's still shit in my opinion, haha).
My personal best is currently 782,900 (ending on Level 19-1).
Ok, let me get this straight. There exists an uber elite 1.1M category, followed by the million point killscreeners, nearly 20 players in the 900K+ group, several metric tons of shit, and then me.
Is it really necessary for me to travel north of the border, at considerable personal expense (airfare and hotel accommodations), for the sole purpose of slapping you around . . . again? ;)
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My personal best is currently 782,900 (ending on Level 19-1).
Ok, let me get this straight. There exists an uber elite 1.1M category, followed by the million point killscreeners, nearly 20 players in the 900K+ group, several metric tons of shit, and then me.
Is it really necessary for me to travel north of the border, at considerable personal expense (airfare and hotel accommodations), for the sole purpose of slapping you around . . . again?
I don't think you understood, Scott. I said that a kill screen score is a sh*t score (obviously, if we compare it with the best players). But a score of 782,900 is by FAR extremely more impressive than just a kill screen score, that's just amazing! It takes way more skills than just hitting a kill screen.
... Vincent Lemay's math ;)
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I don't think you understood, Scott. I said that a kill screen score is a sh*t score (obviously, if we compare it with the best players). But a score of 782,900 is by FAR extremely more impressive than just a kill screen score, that's just amazing! It takes way more skills than just hitting a kill screen.
... Vincent Lemay's math ;)
I took an online course in lemaythématiques several months ago.
I failed miserably, unable to grasp the "2700 is actually equal to zero" concept. :P
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Hey guys... no reason to disrespect Tim's 879K score (although I'm pretty sure you guys are joking). A world record is a world record. As with all scores you have to consider the context in which it was set. When Tim set that score there was only 1 other known killscreener. That's an incredible accomplishment if you ask me. He also had to learn the game with virtually no advanced information available and very few people playing it. Sure it's easy now for us to learn how to pass the 3rd elevator or steer the barrels or even leeching rivets. These things we all take for granted, but I bet Tim had to figure many of these things out himself.
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Hey guys... no reason to disrespect Tim's 879K score (although I'm pretty sure you guys are joking).
I'm going on the assumption that the disrespect from the group was born out of the disrespect perceived from Tim's initial post. The former seemed warranted at the time if you ask me. I think Tim has explained himself better as the thread has grown.
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I'm going on the assumption that the disrespect from the group was born out of the disrespect perceived from Tim's initial post. The former seemed warranted at the time if you ask me. I think Tim has explained himself better as the thread has grown.
That. I do understand Tim's point of view and I relatively agree with it. But his first few posts seemed just too hateful. No offense.
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I am an actual champ, I actually "earned" my place in the games history
... by running boards.
And yeah, you were once the King of Kong with a score of 879k. From today's criteria, this score is now shit, and it's been proven that everybody that care a little bit about the game can score higher than that (no offense to you and to any other kill screeners, it's obviously still an achievement, but it's still shit in my opinion, haha).
Im not a big fan of this comment, and coming from #2 in the world its not completely accurate in my opinion. less than 60 people on the planet has KSed DK, this isnt an "easy" accomplishment, and cannot simply be achieved by "caring a little bit about the game". Its kinda funny, but I have noticed a trend lately. The people downgrading the accomplishment of a KS are either in 1 of 2 categories :
1) You are one of the best players in the world with 4+ years of training under your belt and a highly selective memory, and more than a few KS under your belt.
2) You are currently a Non KSER player at 1m+ pace, trying to downplay the accomplishment of a board running KS so your 333K at 1.01m pace seems more significant.
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You guys really need to understand how this makes people feel going for a "lowly 860k KS" or someone that has been playing for a year and come up short. Its almost a complete undermining of their goal/accomplishment and I think that is kinda bullshit. You will never catch me saying a perfect pacman game is a SHIT ACCOMPLISHMENT beacuse its already been done by a lot of people.
It's really nice when someone wastes a year of their live trying to accomplish a goal, then a far superior player comes in and downgrades their accomplishment. Why would someone sink in all the time to accomplish a goal only for it to be regarded as shit?? Is that why me and allen are going for a KS, to be consiered SHIT by the only people in the world that understand this game.
Im guessing by this standard a 700k player is even less than shit.
It implies the bottom 70 people on the HSL are all shit players, these are active people in our community with a love for the game and you compared them all to less than shit.
I love this community, but comments like this make me really reconsider some things.
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There is also another thing I would like to mention. DK has been broken down, analyzed, played, and competed at more on the highest level than any other CAG title. Most CAG titles have 2-3 top contenders... DK has 20+...
If HALF of the CAG titles had as much competition as DK, then a lot of CURRENT WR's would all be SHIT scores in a year or twos time.
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Hey Tim,
I'm really glad to see that you have made an effort to join the current DK community. I hope you will continue to browse and post in these forums and stream your games. If I am able to make it out to the KO3, you are one of the people that I'm most looking forward to meeting -- it was my understanding that you have plans on attending, which was somewhat surprising when I heard it, but I do feel that it will be great for the event to have you there.
Now that you're more set up and familiar with Twitch, I hope to see you pop in on my channel while I am streaming. You can always see who is streaming at the top of the main page here at DKF and just click the link to go straight to the channel.
Welcome and good luck.
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shane, dont take vincent too seriously. hes still learning english(and math) ;)
a kill screen is obviously not a shit accomplishment. if you knew vincent a little better you wouldve taken what he said with a grain of salt. hes one of the most supportive people in the community. always positive and cheering people on
that being said, the truth is that a kill screen(or score in the 850k range) no longer has the punch that it once did. bitd a kill screen was the final step on a competitive dk players list of goals. now its pretty much the first thing on the list of a player with serious intentions of becoming competitive. just keep at it mate. youll definitely get there, and if youre considering taking the next step towards a million and beyond the community will be here to help and cheer you on no matter what. 100% yer buddy
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" that being said, the truth is that a kill screen(or score in the 850k range) no longer has the punch that it once did. "
This is more a product of the competitiveness of DK, not the score itself, in my opinion. Just because a title is more competitive than others and the WR has been pushing incredibly high and heavily contested doesnt lessen the accomplishment of a meer KS.
I honestly think some of you guys are so brainwashed by how high the DK score has been taken, that you lose focus off the weight of the actual accomplishment of a KS.
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" that being said, the truth is that a kill screen(or score in the 850k range) no longer has the punch that it once did. "
This is more a product of the competitiveness of DK, not the score itself, in my opinion. Just because a title is more competitive than others and the WR has been pushing incredibly high and heavily contested doesnt lessen the accomplishment of a meer KS.
my point was pretty much what hank was saying earlier in the thread. a kill screen used to be a lot tougher since there was very little information going around about how to efficiently play some of the boards so not to get 1/16th and such. now we have long forum topics and tips and videos and a big supportive community that shares information. the truth is that its easier now to get a kill screen than it was even 4-5yrs ago. i wouldnt be at the level im at now if i didnt spend countless hours watching dean play donkey kong. i have no idea what level of player id be if i was left to figure out everything on my own, or if id still be playing at all
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soon enough when 20+ people have a million + score .. 1m is going to become the new shit score because you guys have totally lost sight.
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soon enough when 20+ people have a million + score .. 1m is going to become the new shit score because you guys have totally lost sight.
im not sure what you mean by lost sight but the facts are the facts. 1mil is the new kill screen, 1.1m is the new 1mil and 1.2mil is just retarded ;)
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I am an actual champ, I actually "earned" my place in the games history
... by running boards.
And yeah, you were once the King of Kong with a score of 879k. From today's criteria, this score is now shit, and it's been proven that everybody that care a little bit about the game can score higher than that (no offense to you and to any other kill screeners, it's obviously still an achievement, but it's still shit in my opinion, haha).
Im not a big fan of this comment, and coming from #2 in the world its not completely accurate in my opinion. less than 60 people on the planet has KSed DK, this isnt an "easy" accomplishment, and cannot simply be achieved by "caring a little bit about the game". Its kinda funny, but I have noticed a trend lately. The people downgrading the accomplishment of a KS are either in 1 of 2 categories :
1) You are one of the best players in the world with 4+ years of training under your belt and a highly selective memory, and more than a few KS under your belt.
2) You are currently a Non KSER player at 1m+ pace, trying to downplay the accomplishment of a board running KS so your 333K at 1.01m pace seems more significant.
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You guys really need to understand how this makes people feel going for a "lowly 860k KS" or someone that has been playing for a year and come up short. Its almost a complete undermining of their goal/accomplishment and I think that is kinda bullshit. You will never catch me saying a perfect pacman game is a SHIT ACCOMPLISHMENT beacuse its already been done by a lot of people.
It's really nice when someone wastes a year of their live trying to accomplish a goal, then a far superior player comes in and downgrades their accomplishment. Why would someone sink in all the time to accomplish a goal only for it to be regarded as shit?? Is that why me and allen are going for a KS, to be consiered SHIT by the only people in the world that understand this game.
Im guessing by this standard a 700k player is even less than shit.
It implies the bottom 70 people on the HSL are all shit players, these are active people in our community with a love for the game and you compared them all to less than shit.
I love this community, but comments like this make me really reconsider some things.
Join the dark side! Come over to the DKJr, and DK3 side! 8) Join the community where you just deciding to join us makes your score an awesome score! 8)
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Join the dark side! Come over to the DKJr, and DK3 side! 8) Join the community where you just deciding to join us makes your score an awesome score! 8)
dont listen to george. stanley's spray is starting to get to him. stick to dk ;)
youre the man tho george. love it yer buddy
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As Phil said, obviously I'm exagerating the facts (just like when I say bad things against Hank, that's obviously exagerating the facts!... well... that wasn't the best example! haha). Shane, you probably misinterpreted what I said, probably my fault for that.
I have always been cheering for new DK comers to kill screen Donkey Kong, since I know that a kill screen requires good skills (not exceptionnal skills, but definitely good skills). It definitely takes dedication, and I will always congratulate everyone that gets their first kill screen (in my opinion, getting your first DK kill screen is the best feeling someone can get, honestly. When I got my first kill screen, I had tears all over my face (no homo)). But for an elite player (which I consider Tim to be), a simple kill screen is obviously not that good (whether you did it before KoK or not) since I personally consider an elite player to be able to reach a DK kill screen 1 time out of 3 at least while JRTFBDN.
It would be cocky for me to say that reaching a DK kill screen is exceptional when I know that I could kill screen DK five times within a day. A kill screen is VERY good for a new DK comer, but just "meh, okay" for an "elite" player.
When you play DK at a 1.1m+ pace, you realize that a kill screen is only the first step of many. But like when you're a little baby, your first step will always be the most important step ;). And ultimately, by using my language, I do consider my score as being a shit score compared to a REAL elite score. If Dean can push the game beyond 1.2m pace, then 1,135,900 is very far from it. I'm just the kind of guy that think that being 2nd means being the 1st loser (how ironic for me to say that! haha).
My point was only to compare a simple kill screen score to a high point pressing score for an elite player. Two different worlds. And I do apologize if I sounded mean against some people. As I said on Facebook:"When a kill screen is coming up, Vincent Lemay shows up!", that means I obviously give a shit about kill screens! haha ;) ( I will stop using the word "shit", I think I don't always use it properly, lol).
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"It would be cocky for me to say that reaching a DK kill screen is exceptional when I know that I could kill screen DK five times within a day. A kill screen is VERY good for a new DK comer, but just "meh, okay" for an "elite" player."
But havent you been playing for years and years? And havent you put in just about more time than 99% of anyone who has ever played dk? With that taken into consideration, it doesn't surprise me in why you think this way. Of course DK IS EASY TO YOU. I'd would be shocking and semi pathetic if it wasnt, but this doesnt lessen the overall accomplishment just because you have taken the time and have personally gotten better. The game is just as hard as it was when you started playing, despite the fact you skill level has increased a ton. Only very few people in anything could be considered "elite"
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Like you said Shane, the more someone is good at DK, the less he seems to give "credits" to a kill screen (although I obviously give a lot of credits for someone that reaches a kill screen). When I first hit a kill screen, I thought I was the fking boss! haha. My mentality just changed when I started point pressing, and went from a 809k kill screen to a 1,135,900 kill screen. I can definitely say that when I got my first kill screen, I was nowhere near the level I am today (809k kill screen is fking low for a kill screen, haha). Obviously, back in the day they didn't have the same knowledge and competition we have today.
My point is that I consider my high score as a good score. Nothing more, nothing less. It's all about the perception someone has on a score.
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Like you said Shane, the more someone is good at DK, the less he seems to give "credits" to a kill screen (although I obviously give a lot of credits for someone that reaches a kill screen). When I first hit a kill screen, I thought I was the fking boss! haha. My mentality just changed when I started point pressing, and went from a 809k kill screen to a 1,135,900 kill screen. I can definitely say that when I got my first kill screen, I was nowhere near the level I am today (809k kill screen is fking low for a kill screen, haha). Obviously, back in the day they didn't have the same knowledge and competition we have today.
My point is that I consider my high score as a good score. Nothing more, nothing less. It's all about the perception someone has on a score.
Hey, Vincent, do you remember when you wanted to get a tattoo of your 1.05 million game? Could you imagine if you had done that considering where you are now? LOL
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I wanted to get a tattoo when I first got my DK kill screen, haha. I still kindda want to get a DK tattoo! We should all get the same DK tattoo. DK clique for the win! ;-)
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Tacos are delicious. Can we all agree on that?
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Tim. Look at the bright side. You don't have to deal with anyone hating you for the documentary like Billy Mitchell deals with. This might be a blessing more than a snub inthat aspect. I posted before that Billy and Steve were probably the two at the time of filming that were really trying to push for the record to go up and that your score was omitted do to not wanting to explain your side and having to add extra footage to the film do to keeping it under a certain time. Originally the king of kong was about Doris day I believe and that Seth gordon seen Steve getting snubbed so they thought the movie would be better if it gone that route. I never knew if you were inthe film at all and got edited out but id love to read exactly what happened to you. You should definitely do a players blog.
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Tacos are delicious. Can we all agree on that?
Yummmm
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I think the most crucial aspect about how hard a DK KS is, and how things have significantly changed over time, is a point Phil pointed out:
my point was pretty much what hank was saying earlier in the thread. a kill screen used to be a lot tougher since there was very little information going around about how to efficiently play some of the boards so not to get 1/16th and such. now we have long forum topics and tips and videos and a big supportive community that shares information. the truth is that its easier now to get a kill screen than it was even 4-5yrs ago. i wouldnt be at the level im at now if i didnt spend countless hours watching dean play donkey kong. i have no idea what level of player id be if i was left to figure out everything on my own, or if id still be playing at all
Essentially, the act of already having the necessary skills and executing a KS is the exact same as it was for people BITD, however, the process of acquiring that skill set is much, much easier and simpler now. Instead of spending hundreds of dollars and hours learning the game, now an expert player can explain to someone nearly all they'll need to know to get a KS in under 30 minutes!
Because of this streamlining of information, what has slowly happened is, all the effort and time that was once expended just getting to the KS has been directed more at getting 1m+. This is why people say 1m+ is the new KS. And this isn't even mentioning the change in psychological barriers concerning getting a KS after it has already been done by someone before...
I understand what you're saying Shane, but I do think you'd have to admit that the standards have changed. It literally is the case that a KS is not as impressive as it once was, and this is because it is now literally easier to get to the point, skill-wise, where one can play a KS game.
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I worked hard for my kill screen, and yes I watched players and read tips. But I did create my own plan of action and stuck to it. Now I am slowly implementing other aspects of my game to get more points; one step at a time. A lot of the comments on this thread makes my kill screen seem less significant than I believe it is.
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I worked hard for my kill screen, and yes I watched players and read tips. But I did create my own plan of action and stuck to it. Now I am slowly implementing other aspects of my game to get more points; one step at a time. A lot of the comments on this thread makes my kill screen seem less significant than I believe it is.
Again really, there is actually other Donkey Kong's out there. I'd like to make an analogy. Imagine there were 3 type of mines. A gold mine, a silver mine, and a copper mine. All 3 mines were open to the public. Of course because gold is the most valuable by a long shot, there were tons, and tons of people mining for gold. It got to the point that so many people were looking for gold that all the effort just to find that gold nugget was not worth it anymore. But that's were the other two mines came in.
The smarter ones went after the silver mines. Yes silver is worth less, but the competition was so infrequent that those that went this route actually did better, and got more value for their efforts. Silver may not be worth as much but there was so much more silver all around that those that went this route actually struck it rich because all their efforts paid off.
Finally the smartest one went to the copper mine. He had heard legends about this copper mind, and that it actually existed. The problem is no one really bothered to even go to that mine because hey copper is no way near the value of silver or not even close to the value of gold. So for kicks he decided to go there, and what he saw was jaw dropping. Large mountains of copper all over the place virtually untouched with no one even digging for the stuff when he got there. So he called up a few semi trucks, and went to town on the whole mine. Soon this person became known as "King of the copper mine", but the truth of the matter is he was making WAY more off his efforts mining copper than 95 percent of those who kept mining just to strike it rich in the gold mine.
Long story short. Donkey Kong is the gold mine, Donkey Kong Junior is the silver mine, and Donkey Kong 3 is the copper mine.
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Everyone works hard to reach their first kill screen, and it is never 'easy' for any individual to achieve a bare bones kill screen. Every time you jump a barrel you can die. Death is everywhere in the game. It takes a lot of concentration and determination to just jump over that many barrels in 2 hours. Imagine doing that in real life. With no breaks. Wearing overalls? Not easy. Then throw in the spring screens, screwings...etc.
Which brings me to my next point...the randomness of the game. If you think about it, there are many people out there trying to get their first KS right now that have all the skill and knowledge to get there...but maybe have been cut down over and over by the randomness of the game. Honestly if the game doesn't want you to get to the end, you aren't getting there. It takes a combination of skill and luck to reach the KS...and your odds of getting one go up more and more as a player can consistantly play the game without making personal mistakes that cause deaths.
You can think of a game of DK as everything being predetermined...meaning based on the way the fireballs are going to react, screwings, wild barrels, barrels that won't steer, etc...if you play the game perfectly for max points, there is an allotted amount of points that you'll be able to get by the time you reach the KS. Nothing more nothing less. You can't do anything about that barrel that didn't steer down whilst grouping...400 points lost after factoring in the rejump. Bunch-a long springs in a row? Sorry but DK already determined that you would lose out on 500 points on 13-4...waiting for the long springs to stop. Nothing you can do about that. Aw, your star pattern got messed up...better freestyle it...oh that took a long time, a few thousand points lost there, oh well. Fireballs chasing you around at the bottom on 13-2...bonus timer is getting low...oops too bad, you're dead...well if you woulda just asked the machine if it was going to screw you that many times in that particular game you could have just killed off all your men at the beginning and started over...and not wasted an hour.
Donkey Kong's randomness is as much of a factor for reaching a KS as any given player's skill level is. The same goes for scoring big big big.
Regarding the player, you can basically boil the game down to repetition without error, and determination. It's a simple computer program that lets us beat it sometimes.
If there was a red/green light on top of the cabinet that would show red if you would get screwed too many times to make it to the end, and green if you would be able to make it to the end given you didn't make any human mistakes...that would save everyone a lot of time.
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Even though tacos are delicious I think I'd prefer burritos any day of the week.
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Even though tacos are delicious I think I'd prefer burritos any day of the week.
Once you start to panini press, a simple run for tacos just isn't as impressive.
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Even though tacos are delicious I think I'd prefer burritos any day of the week.
My personal preference is Cadillac Fajitas (half chicken, half steak), lightly dusted with Cajun spices, served on a sizzling blackened skillet with grilled onions, a basket of warm tortillas, red beans and rice on the side.
Accompaniments: pico de gallo, guacamole, and a blend of shredded Colby and Monterey Jack cheeses.
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Even though tacos are delicious I think I'd prefer burritos any day of the week.
My personal preference is Cadillac Fajitas (half chicken, half steak), lightly dusted with Cajun spices, served on a sizzling blackened skillet with grilled onions, a basket of warm tortillas, red beans and rice on the side.
Accompaniments: pico de gallo, guacamole, and a blend of shredded Colby and Monterey Jack cheeses.
I agree except I forego the accompaniments and instead add grilled peppers.
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We really need a High Score List for number of successfully derailed topics.
As for minimum submission requirements, I'm thinking at least 10 replies that have no apparent connection to the original post.
Could somebody get on that please?
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We really need a High Score List for number of successfully derailed topics.
As for minimum submission requirements, I'm thinking at least 10 replies that have no apparent connection to the original post.
Could somebody get on that please?
I know which subforum it can go into!
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Only posers like tacos. Real champs like burritos.
(http://hdiddydollar.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/burrito_girl.jpg?w=750)
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Edit: nevermind, continue with your talk, and pictures of burritos.
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Hank, it's not nice to post pictures of Vincent's girlfriends without asking for permission first!
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Those girls are just posing as burrito aficionados...
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w3/oneallw/poser.jpg)
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On behalf of the so-called "poser". Do we have any one in the community that really fits this definition?
If by it we are referring to those who are presently just running boards... then I see most newer players wanting to get that first killscreen and getting there as quickly as possible. Why blame them? Running boards is safer on the barrel stage, it makes the attempt quicker leaving more time for additional attempts, lowers fatigue, etc. Why not shoot for a killscreen first and then press for more points? I did this during the WCR #3 Q#1. I ran boards to get a killscreen, once I got a score up in the 800K range I started two hammer games and put it up in the 900K range. Compare this to my WCR #3 Q#2 million point attempts. There is much to be said about the risk of a higher pace during a live tournament.
Speaking lightly of the killscreen achievement is not very encouraging for someone who has not achieved it yet. Although it may be true that there are some players who can achieve a killscreen any day they want to, it may not be best to say it so often or so strongly if we are getting a negative response from players who have not achieved the goal yet.
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On behalf of the so-called "poser". Do we have any one in the community that really fits this definition?
Yep, I am definitely a Donkey Kong poser! 8) But hey, I was originally a Donkey Kong Junior poser as well. I am one of those ones that you describe that just wants to get to the killscreen just to eliminate the to do list. But like Junior I plan on slowly adding different things to enhance my scoring total such as going two hammers with possibly limited grouping. I am crossing my fingers that I can do the same thing I did with Junior, and eventually put up a really good score by almost anyone's standards, including Sczerby's.
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<strikes a pose> = Poser = Jason
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On behalf of the so-called "poser". Do we have any one in the community that really fits this definition?
Captain Poser, reporting for duty! 8)
Honestly, I employ a variety of playing styles, going with whatever feels right at the moment.
This is my current strategy, for better or worse:
Barrels
- Both hammers on Level 1-1. Press the board conservatively, just enough for 8500-9500 points.
- Skip the bottom hammer on Levels 02 and 03.
- Both hammers on Level 04. Grab the bottom hammer (1) as soon as the initial fireball climbs, (2) when there are at least 8 barrels onscreen, or (3) if the 2nd blue barrel released is a wild barrel. Limited grouping up top, as long as the nearest fireball is miles away. Set up the top hammer for 7-8 possible smashes, trying to ensure one blue barrel in the mix.
- Both hammers on Level 05. Same approach as Level 04. Recover points lost due to skipped bottom hammers on L2-1 and L3-1 (using 3 barrel boards to compensate for 2).
- Top hammer only on Level 06 and beyond. Take the bottom hammer only for defensive purposes, or to offset a low scoring death on the previous screen.
Conveyors
- Take the free pass whenever it is clearly available. Otherwise, take the bottom hammer or retreat to the lowest platform, depending on fireball movement.
- Collect 2 of the 3 prizes. Grab the 3rd only when access is unrestricted.
- Use the left hammer for safety, if waiting for an opening on that side.
Elevators
- Collect all 3 prizes on every stage.
- Leech the fireball and springs on Levels 02 and 03, until the bonus timer reaches 400 (L2-2) or 1500 (L3-3). Don't bother adjusting the horizontal position to leech the shortest springs (down the road, perhaps, but not yet).
- On the final ladder approach, retreat when necessary (i.e., don't be an idiot).
Rivets
- Use the Star as the primary pattern.
- Switch to the Weave if the firefox spawning locations and early behavior seem threatening (whatever that means).
- Take the easy taunting points on Levels 01 through 03, but don't jump through hoops in an attempt to force those opportunities.
- From Level 04 onward, unless there is a clear advantage to taking the top hammer, consider bypassing it, particularly if the lower hammer is productive and/or the board can be completed rather quickly (3000-4000 bonus timer points).
Using this approach (or some variation of it), I hope to secure a 115K start, 48K level averages, and 10K from deaths 1-3 combined (when running boards, points from barrel and spring deaths are generally low). If all goes reasonably well, my first killscreen game could be somewhere in the 940K neighborhood.
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Instead of spending hundreds of dollars and hours learning the game, now an expert player can explain to someone nearly all they'll need to know to get a KS in under 30 minutes!
Mitch, this is bullshit and you know it. You can be told exactly what and how to do, yet it still has to sink in and you still have to apply this to your game. How many players have been told to watch donkey kong and still get 1/16? How many players are told REPEATEDLY not to get on middle platform on pies with more than 1 fireball on each side, due to the possibility of being trapped, how many players and the list goes on and on and on... It does not work this way.
Being told the right way, and learning how to actively apply it to your game and the correct RNG situations is much much different.
Also, I played crazy kong for 4 hours + last night going for KS and the easy 2 fireball pie factories really opened my eyes to exactly how fucking hard DK really is. Just because some of you guys have invested 4+ years and 1000's of hours into the game doesnt, make it any easier.
Yea, there is more information out there than it used to be, yet we have only had 4 new KS in the last 9 months. And a few of these players had been playing for over 2 years.
It is honestly a struggle and very hard for a new player to learn strategy, apply it effectively, and achieve a KS. It is unbelievably hard. This isn't like running through mario 64 or playing bubble bobble. This is a really hard RNG game that is very very very difficult to complete.
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Instead of spending hundreds of dollars and hours learning the game, now an expert player can explain to someone nearly all they'll need to know to get a KS in under 30 minutes!
Mitch, this is bullshit and you know it. You can be told exactly what and how to do, yet it still has to sink in and you still have to apply this to your game. How many players have been told to watch donkey kong and still get 1/16? How many players are told REPEATEDLY not to get on middle platform on pies with more than 1 fireball on each side, due to the possibility of being trapped, how many players and the list goes on and on and on... It does not work this way.
Being told the right way, and learning how to actively apply it to your game and the correct RNG situations is much much different.
Shane, I think you're misunderstanding what parts of 'getting' a DK KS I am saying is easier. In my mind, there are 2 parts to 'getting' a DK KS, one part is composed of 2 smaller parts. I implied this (pretty strongly) by my use of italics in the sentences preceding the one you quoted:
Essentially, the act of already having the necessary skills and executing a KS is the exact same as it was for people BITD, however, the process of acquiring that skill set is much, much easier and simpler now. Instead of spending hundreds of dollars and hours learning the game, now an expert player can explain to someone nearly all they'll need to know to get a KS in under 30 minutes!
The 2 main parts of getting a DK KS are as follows:
1) Acquiring the skills:
a) This includes knowledge -which is the aspect of the whole process that I am saying is significantly easier than BITD.
b) And this includes practicing to apply that knowledge consistently -this I also think is much easier than back in the day, since now 1a) you don't have to cough up money like some people did, or 1b) you don't have to have your own machine, like some people did before MAME was around and arcades basically had ceased to exist, 2) People can have the added accountability of streaming their game or submitting inps where the best current players can analyze the game and give you constant and immediate feedback (the very existence of the internet works wonders to this end).
2) Playing the actual individual game that results in the KS (this is after already having acquired the necessary skills) -this I am saying is basically the same as BITD, since, in general, the good/bad luck in DK will tend towards the same average across various machines/MAME roms.
So, with what I was trying to explain now having been made (hopefully) even clearer and more explicit, I'm gonna have to stand my ground and still say that in terms of acquiring the skills necessary for a KS, getting a DK KS is basically easier than it has ever been.
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If there was a red/green light on top of the cabinet that would show red if you would get screwed too many times to make it to the end, and green if you would be able to make it to the end given you didn't make any human mistakes...that would save everyone a lot of time.
I think if you hook up a Zoltan the fortune-teller machine to a Donkey Kong, it will tell you. The turban even lights up.
This may be the greatest thread ever, by the way.
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If there was a red/green light on top of the cabinet that would show red if you would get screwed too many times to make it to the end, and green if you would be able to make it to the end given you didn't make any human mistakes...that would save everyone a lot of time.
I think if you hook up a Zoltan the fortune-teller machine to a Donkey Kong, it will tell you. The turban even lights up.
This may be the greatest thread ever, by the way.
Those Zoltan machines are scary. Also I hear they might be making a "Big 2", a much darker movie...where the main plot is Josh's Mom pressing charges against the lady that slept with Josh when he was 'big'.
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If there was a red/green light on top of the cabinet that would show red if you would get screwed too many times to make it to the end, and green if you would be able to make it to the end given you didn't make any human mistakes...that would save everyone a lot of time.
I think if you hook up a Zoltan the fortune-teller machine to a Donkey Kong, it will tell you. The turban even lights up.
This may be the greatest thread ever, by the way.
Those Zoltan machines are scary. Also I hear they might be making a "Big 2", a much darker movie...where the main plot is Josh's Mom pressing charges against the lady that slept with Josh when he was 'big'.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Pressing charges for being the luckiest boy in the world.
Nice (http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/155304)
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""1) Acquiring the skills:
a) This includes knowledge -which is the aspect of the whole process that I am saying is significantly easier than BITD.
b) And this includes practicing to apply that knowledge consistently -this I also think is much easier than back in the day, since now 1a) you don't have to cough up money like some people did, or 1b) you don't have to have your own machine, like some people did before MAME was around and arcades basically had ceased to exist, 2) People can have the added accountability of streaming their game or submitting inps where the best current players can analyze the game and give you constant and immediate feedback (the very existence of the internet works wonders to this end).
""
Mitch Im not slow, or dumb. There is no way I could disagree with this of course it was harder to be good back in the day. Yes the knowledge is out there. All there ready to be learned and soaked up. There are also algebra books and spanish books that details exactly how to learn alegbra and spanish. Even then that doesnt garuntee someone can or will learn it. Its no consolation to a kid struggling with alegbra that its easier to learn alegbra today than 100 years ago. Its more a slap in the face
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1. Run boards, become point poser
2. Point press
3. ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
4. Profit
:o
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There are also algebra books and spanish books that details exactly how to learn alegbra and spanish. Even then that doesnt garuntee someone can or will learn it. Its no consolation to a kid struggling with alegbra that its easier to learn alegbra today than 100 years ago. Its more a slap in the face
But if you stream algebra on twitch while Ken twerks to YMCA in his tighty whities then everyone, even Vincent, would be an algebra genius.
Shane you realize Mitch has not killscreened either so he is slapping himself in the face. Mitch is saying yes it still takes hours and hours of practice but it's easier to learn algebra from a book than to figure it out on your own.
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Hey Hank,
Yea, I realize mitch hasn't KSed DK yet, but its due solely to his own laziness when it comes to playing. Mitch realizes he could easily get a KS with his knowledge, time of practicing, and skill. I would be interested to see his response if he was in the trenches 5 days a week streaming for 4+ hours each and coming up short. But rather, Mitch streams 2 hours a month on a good month and half the time is spent doing 1-1s. And then for all the players that are really putting in 15-20+ hours a week in, they have to hear this shit. It might be hard for the DK elite to sympithize will a newer player and how certain discussion and the difficulty of a KS makes them feel. Yes, all elite players were new at one point in tiime, but they didn't have to hear people discuss how easy the game is that they are coming up short in.
For someone to grind this game out like a second job, and still come up short, and then for someone to say its easy or blah blah blah isnt very encouraging and doesn't make you feel good about yourself or your play. I think that is the exact thing we are trying to discourage on this forum.
I was thinking about this topic a lot lately, and of my responses. It is very possible I am defending this so vehemently as to justify what Ive been doing with almost all my spare time lately. If I am wasting all this time and my life on an easy game, that should be easy to beat, and that everyone acknowledges as an easy game; it doesnt make me feel good about how Ive been leading my spare time lately.
But then on the other hand, Im doing my best to stick up for any non KS player on these forums. To tell them that it's a hard ass game, and their time and patience is and will pay off. That what they are working towards is a big thing and worthwhile. It would be a real fucking shame if the if the ramblings of the best in the world drive off and discourage the newer players.
If good players want to discount all the years and hundreds and hundreds of hours they put it to make them feel better of pump their ego, or merely for the sake of a philisophical DK debate that is fine with me, but dont do it at the expense of the pride and respect of newer players.
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Hey Shane, no one is saying DK is easy or doesn't take a ton of practice to get a killscreen. I think people are just saying it's easier than it was in the 80's just because of the availability of knowledge, streams, modern day tools (save states, recordings etc). It's still a great gaming feat. A good analogy would be running a 4 minute mile. This was once thought impossible and would have been a world record 60 years ago. Nowadays it's still a great time but won't turn any heads. We just have better food, medicine, training regimens, shoes, tracks, etc. now. Same with DK. Even just the knowledge that it's possible/that so many others have done it makes it easier. I remember reading that the Friday (hardest) NY Times crossword puzzle is 'easier' later in the day than early in the day. Not because people are telling each other the answers, but just because you heard your coworker finished it, so therefore I must be able to do it. Another personal example: when I started playing, I had no idea you had to retreat on elevators. Of course I knew this was an option, but on my own I would have thought it was humanly impossible to look at the next spring while running toward the final ladder. After I learned that this is what the killscreeners were doing (just the knowledge that it was possible, I had no videos), it only took a day or 2 for me to learn how to do it.
Again no one is saying it's easy or not a great accomplishment. There's a reason it's consistently on the hardest games of all time lists. It's just easier than it used to be.
Edit: BTW none of us have forgotten how much practice it took to get our first killscreen. I'm pretty sure all the killscreeners can tell you exactly how much time (in months) it took them to reach it.
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Shane has been in a "no sleep till kill screen!!!" deathmatch with Crazy Kong.
Go easy on him, I've been there.
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Hank, I have said many times I agree with that situation. I wouldnt be sitting here typing mountains trying to defend the fact that it isnt easier than it used to be.
In fact, this isn't even what I took issue with in the first place.
I took issue with " 870K KS is a Shit score and "DK isnt hard bc it can be KSed 5 times a day" by the elite.
The "it was harder back in the day argument" only came into effect to soften and attempt to justify the 2 coments above that I do take issue with. At this point its been said so many times like it's an attempt to change the subject. I do not take issue with "it was harder back in the day". This is so blindingly obvious its kinda weird how you guys keep repeating it. Its almost like you guys do not understand what I am talking about initially. This thread has been so mind fucked and beat to death I am unsure you can find my intended meaning behind the same rehashed arguments.
I am done with this post, done commenting and done reading this thread. It is the same rehashed bullshit over and over and over.
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I believe what I am trying to convey in a nutshell, is that just because something is easier than it used to be doesn't make it easy as a whole.
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In addition, I dont think the time (in months) is an accurate gauge of anything. I think its really the amount of hours they put in in those months. It could take someone 3 years to get a KS if they only played 1 hour a week. Or it could take someone 5 months because they played 6 hours every day. It is very likely a person that took 5 months and a person that took 2 years spent the exact same time in hours on the game.
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In fact, this isn't even what I took issue with in the first place.
I took issue with " 870K KS is a Shit score and "DK isnt hard bc it can be KSed 5 times a day" by the elite.
True, but I'd make one note: It was only one elite DK player that made this claim. There's a reason why it was Vincent -and not any other DK elites- that said this in this specific way. Simply put: This is just how Vincent talks. I should know, he lived at my place for almost a month. ;D Vincent has a very blunt manner of speaking that is quite apparent to those that know him in person. Additionally, Vincent thinks even his 1.1m is 'shit', which reveals the fact that Vincent was probably, likewise, just speaking relatively. Given the further context of the conversation with Tim, it makes even more sense that Vincent was speaking exaggeratedly as well. I don't think you should read into too much. I'm sure no 'elite' DK player (or any DK player, for that matter) literally thinks a KS is 'shit' -other than the fact that it is 'the shit' -which is obvious! ;) .
Also, I think that the fact that the milder "it was harder back in the day argument" has been rehashed as much as it has, is probably due to it simply being correlative to what good DK players actually think about the matter. It's probably what is more representative of their common opinions.
In addition, I dont think the time (in months) is an accurate gauge of anything. I think its really the amount of hours they put in in those months. It could take someone 3 years to get a KS if they only played 1 hour a week. Or it could take someone 5 months because they played 6 hours every day. It is very likely a person that took 5 months and a person that took 2 years spent the exact same time in hours on the game.
I'd agree with you completely that this is a better metric of determining the effort people have put in. Actually, I'd say that I probably spent more time playing DK in my first month with the game than in all of my other months combined. I was playing almost every day for at least 3 hours -sometimes up to like 12! Now, even though my games are longer, I can barely play more than 2 hours at a time unless I have a game going. My 4.5 hours straight the other day was probably my best this whole year.
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No matter how many people kill screen the game or how good they are, it is still a major accomplishment. Everyone who has kill screened it and gone on to becoming an elite will always remember their first kill screen. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it. You could look up all the perfect pac man patterns and copy them if you want, but how many people have done that? Just because the information is there and you know everything there is to know, it still comes down to having the skills to execute and accomplish that feat. Even if all I had was one kill screen at 850k and never went beyond that, I would still be proud I reached my goal (which was my initial intention), because at the end of the day you do it for yourself. That's how I always looked at it.
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I agree with Robbie
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We Love you Tim, Roy, Brian Allen or is it Mr Mary Mcmanus.. any how Im an Australian do i count.. My high score is now on a cab 562800 and i run boards and i still cant get a million.. yer buddy.. love it.. i try harder than any one on the mame streamers .. fkk ive played over 15 thousand game of dk ... yer buddy. Im sorry you did not get mentioned in the movie king of kong but please dont rubbish us on here mate. allen.
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You know I think it's ironic that 10 years ago Tim's tune wast vastly different. Remember this is the guy who said "1,000,000 points is impossible!" Now flash forward 10 years later, and now it's your a poser if you don't have at least a 1,000,000 point pace. My how times have changed!
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I thought 900k was impossible back then? Migh have been a million.
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Pertaining to the previous conversation: The way I see it, a killscreen, while clearly a monumental step in a Donkey Kong player's career, is merely the first step in a series of many. Killscreens pretty much only require a player to become relatively skilled at the basics of the game; the complexity and depth of the game hasn't even begun to crack open when you get your first killscreen by just running boards. Reaching the killscreen usually is pretty much the end of your career as a beginner-level player.
I think that something a lot of people are forgetting is that Donkey Kong isn't really a very competitive game. On top of that, many Donkey Kong players are 30- or 40-somethings who don't really have all the free time or motivation in the world to play for several hours each day. This could explain why there aren't very many killscreens. For example: I am #39 on this website's high score list. That puts me above about 2/3 players who even have a score submitted on that list. Comparatively, I am around the top 60 in a free rhythm game called osu!; this puts me in roughly the 99.9th percentile of player skill, and that's even if we only consider active players. Further, osu! isn't even that popular of a game. Compare it with speedrunning, for example, where even most casual players put 4+ hours into the game every day, and where there are thousands of these people. To go even further, we could compare it with the pro gaming scene, where some players put in 12+ hours every single day to practice for tournaments. In games like these, the killscreen equivalent would just be learning the basics; if this game was as popular as speedrunning and popular with the same demographic, most of the young teens playing the game 4-8 hours a day (with the occasional 12- to 24-hour marathon here and there) would get it in a few weeks or months. With speedrunning or pro gaming, these kinds of players are extremely common.
A killscreen definitely isn't to be taken lightly, but I certainly don't find it offensive or terribly inaccurate at all if someone considers it to be a shit achievement, serious or not.
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Uh oh.
Thar be a shitstorm a-brewin....
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Pertaining to the previous conversation: The way I see it, a killscreen, while clearly a monumental step in a Donkey Kong player's career, is merely the first step in a series of many. Killscreens pretty much only require a player to become relatively skilled at the basics of the game; the complexity and depth of the game hasn't even begun to crack open when you get your first killscreen by just running boards. Reaching the killscreen usually is pretty much the end of your career as a beginner-level player.
I think that something a lot of people are forgetting is that Donkey Kong isn't really a very competitive game. On top of that, many Donkey Kong players are 30- or 40-somethings who don't really have all the free time or motivation in the world to play for several hours each day. This could explain why there aren't very many killscreens. For example: I am #39 on this website's high score list. That puts me above about 2/3 players who even have a score submitted on that list. Comparatively, I am around the top 60 in a free rhythm game called osu!; this puts me in roughly the 99.9th percentile of player skill, and that's even if we only consider active players. Further, osu! isn't even that popular of a game. Compare it with speedrunning, for example, where even most casual players put 4+ hours into the game every day, and where there are thousands of these people. To go even further, we could compare it with the pro gaming scene, where some players put in 12+ hours every single day to practice for tournaments. In games like these, the killscreen equivalent would just be learning the basics; if this game was as popular as speedrunning and popular with the same demographic, most of the young teens playing the game 4-8 hours a day (with the occasional 12- to 24-hour marathon here and there) would get it in a few weeks or months. With speedrunning or pro gaming, these kinds of players are extremely common.
A killscreen definitely isn't to be taken lightly, but I certainly don't find it offensive or terribly inaccurate at all if someone considers it to be a shit achievement, serious or not.
Looks like another pejorative has been assigned to my play. First Tim Sczerby called my style of play as that of a "poser". Than Vincent Lemay called my style of play "A garbage game" or words to that effect. And now Kyou-kun says that I am still at beginner level because I haven't reached a killscreen. By the way Killscreen is not a first step, by the time someone reaches the killscreen they have made many steps. First step is to past board 1, second step is to pass board two. Third step is to pass the first elevator stage, fourth step is to pass Level 3 barrel board stage (First wild barrel stage), 5th step is to pass the first pie factory stage. 6th step is to pass the 2nd elevator stage. 7th step is to pass the 3rd level rivet stage (Much harder than the first two). 8th step is to pass the 2nd pie factory stage. 9th step is to pass both level 4 wild barrel boards. 10th step (And this is a big one, is to pass the level 4 elevator stage). 11th step is to pass the 4th level rivet stage, 12th step is to get 100,000 points, 13th step is to pass the level 5 barrel board stage, 14th step is to pass the level 5 pie factory stage, 15th step is to pass level 5, 16th step is to hit 200,000, 17th step is to hit 300,000, 18th step is to hit 400,000, 19th step is to hit 500,000, 20th step is to hit 600,000, 21st step is to hit 700,000, 22nd step is to hit 800,000, and FINALLY the 23rd step is to hit the killscreen.
Also think about this. There are a small number of fish, but the fish we have are extremely large fish. Like you said, you are in the 99th percentile for a newer game, and yet you are in the 66th percentile in Donkey Kong. I bet that it will be a lot easier to get to the 99th percentile of that one game, than it will be for you to get to even the 90th percentile of Donkey kong. The 90th percentile of Donkey Kong is a 1.02 million score.
Remember quality over quantity. We may not have the quantity of competition, but I do believe we have the quality of competition despite this being a game played by 30, and 40 year olds. You see Donkey Kong is a game that you can play competitively until you are in your 70's. The reason being is the skill is in your hands, and the last thing to go is your hands. Remember a few years ago Tom Watson came within a shot of winning the British Open when he was 59! Golf is also an extremely competitive sport. Also look at musicians which only use their hands. Many of these musicians remain professional musicians well into their 80's!
This is not an athletic sport, and so comparing people in this genre to people who play something like football, tennis, basketball or whatever is the wrong thing to do. Yeah, in those sports having a good athletic body means you can't compete once you hit your late 30's, early 40's. Also this is not some fighting game were fast reflexes are super important. What's more important as Walter Day would say is to have a "Deep comprehensive knowledge" of the game, and the ability to act upon that knowledge. Again, this is something that people should be able to compete competitively in until they reach the age of 70 or so.
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Also think about this. There are a small number of fish, but the fish we have are extremely large fish. Like you said, you are in the 99th percentile for a newer game, and yet you are in the 66th percentile in Donkey Kong. I bet that it will be a lot easier to get to the 99th percentile of that one game, than it will be for you to get to even the 90th percentile of Donkey kong. The 90th percentile of Donkey Kong is a 1.02 million score.
This is simply incorrect. Watch someone in the top 50 of osu! (me for example) to see what skills are necessary for the game. The tools used are just the mouse and keyboard.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZ1a6sZv5TY#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZ1a6sZv5TY#ws)
Keep in mind that just getting one good score on one extremely difficult fast map like this doesn't mean much, either. There are tens of thousands of maps in the game, all of which require different skills to play well. To be considered a top 50 player, you need to be good at every type of map.
Remember quality over quantity. We may not have the quantity of competition, but I do believe we have the quality of competition despite this being a game played by 30, and 40 year olds. You see Donkey Kong is a game that you can play competitively until you are in your 70's. The reason being is the skill is in your hands, and the last thing to go is your hands. Remember a few years ago Tom Watson came within a shot of winning the British Open when he was 59! Golf is also an extremely competitive sport. Also look at musicians which only use their hands. Many of these musicians remain professional musicians well into their 80's!
This is not an athletic sport, and so comparing people in this genre to people who play something like football, tennis, basketball or whatever is the wrong thing to do. Yeah, in those sports having a good athletic body means you can't compete once you hit your late 30's, early 40's. Also this is not some fighting game were fast reflexes are super important. What's more important as Walter Day would say is to have a "Deep comprehensive knowledge" of the game, and the ability to act upon that knowledge. Again, this is something that people should be able to compete competitively in until they reach the age of 70 or so.
While I would disagree with your claim that younger people don't have an advantage, that's not quite what I was getting at. My point was that the preteens and teens who speedrun and play games professionally generally have much more time and motivation to put into their favorite games compared to 30-year-olds with lives, jobs, and families. Most of getting good at a game is just putting in a lot of time, and if you don't have that, you won't ever get skilled.
By "not very competitive", I only meant it in the sense that there isn't a whole lot of back and forth between record holders, and there aren't a whole lot of players involved in it. The former would mean it is competitive among the elite players; the latter would mean it is competitive in the sense that there are many players attempting to join the elite. Currently, Donkey Kong doesn't have very much of either.
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Reaching the killscreen usually is pretty much the end of your career as a beginner-level player.
^this is incorrect, as a beginner wouldn't be able to make it past the L=4 elevators. Labels suck, anyway.
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Also think about this. There are a small number of fish, but the fish we have are extremely large fish. Like you said, you are in the 99th percentile for a newer game, and yet you are in the 66th percentile in Donkey Kong. I bet that it will be a lot easier to get to the 99th percentile of that one game, than it will be for you to get to even the 90th percentile of Donkey kong. The 90th percentile of Donkey Kong is a 1.02 million score.
This is simply incorrect. Watch someone in the top 50 of osu! (me for example) to see what skills are necessary for the game. The tools used are just the mouse and keyboard.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZ1a6sZv5TY#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZ1a6sZv5TY#ws)
Keep in mind that just getting one good score on one extremely difficult fast map like this doesn't mean much, either. There are tens of thousands of maps in the game, all of which require different skills to play well. To be considered a top 50 player, you need to be good at every type of map.
Remember quality over quantity. We may not have the quantity of competition, but I do believe we have the quality of competition despite this being a game played by 30, and 40 year olds. You see Donkey Kong is a game that you can play competitively until you are in your 70's. The reason being is the skill is in your hands, and the last thing to go is your hands. Remember a few years ago Tom Watson came within a shot of winning the British Open when he was 59! Golf is also an extremely competitive sport. Also look at musicians which only use their hands. Many of these musicians remain professional musicians well into their 80's!
This is not an athletic sport, and so comparing people in this genre to people who play something like football, tennis, basketball or whatever is the wrong thing to do. Yeah, in those sports having a good athletic body means you can't compete once you hit your late 30's, early 40's. Also this is not some fighting game were fast reflexes are super important. What's more important as Walter Day would say is to have a "Deep comprehensive knowledge" of the game, and the ability to act upon that knowledge. Again, this is something that people should be able to compete competitively in until they reach the age of 70 or so.
While I would disagree with your claim that younger people don't have an advantage, that's not quite what I was getting at. My point was that the preteens and teens who speedrun and play games professionally generally have much more time and motivation to put into their favorite games compared to 30-year-olds with lives, jobs, and families. Most of getting good at a game is just putting in a lot of time, and if you don't have that, you won't ever get skilled.
By "not very competitive", I only meant it in the sense that there isn't a whole lot of back and forth between record holders, and there aren't a whole lot of players involved in it. The former would mean it is competitive among the elite players; the latter would mean it is competitive in the sense that there are many players attempting to join the elite. Currently, Donkey Kong doesn't have very much of either.
OK, I'll tell you what. Talk the smack when you actually get that 1.1 million score. Right now your score is nowhere near elite level for this game. Get the 1.1 elite level score, and THEN talk. Most likely this is going to be a tad bit harder than you imagined. You talk about how your 99% is so much more competitive, and yet you are not that great at Donkey Kong. If Donkey Kong is really less competitive, than that 1.1 million score should happen any month now.
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OK, I'll tell you what. Talk the smack when you actually get that 1.1 million score. Right now your score is nowhere near elite level for this game. Get the 1.1 elite level score, and THEN talk. Most likely this is going to be a tad bit harder than you imagined. You talk about how your 99% is so much more competitive, and yet you are not that great at Donkey Kong. If Donkey Kong is really less competitive, than that 1.1 million score should happen any month now.
There's a difference between competition and difficulty. Even though DK has the most competition among CAG titles, it doesn't even begin to compare to more modern games. If DK had the same competition as LoL or Starcraft (you could mimic this by incentivising people to play the game by offering up like a $10,000 reward for a 1.2m game) then 1.1m wouldn't even stand out as an amazing score. It wouldn't really matter how hard the game is, at that point, only that the score is possible and feasible with enough effort and time.
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It's probably impossible to compare a game like Donkey Kong to a game like osu!. They're pretty different.
From what I can see, osu! is basically Elite Beat Agents or Donkey Konga, on crack. To get good at it, you play it over and over until you memorize the level and get fast/accurate enough to not make any mistakes. Nothing ever changes, it's always the same every time. It's pure memorization and quick reaction time. Looks like you have to have really quick fingers and mouse movements to do well at this game. Just watching it is pretty cool, it looks really tough.
Donkey Kong is also tough, but from the outside doesn't look hard at all. An osu! player would probably look at Donkey Kong and say it looks boring. It's a different kinda tough...more endurance tough. It's also random, so you can't just memorize the game and then execute it...it requires on-the-fly thinking. Barrels that won't steer, never knowing when a wild barrel will be thrown, multiple long springs in a row...etc.
I am swayed toward the DK side, so take this with a grain of extra fine salt, but would a way to compare the 2 go something like this maybe...osu! requires to you move the mouse around the screen and hit keys based on a pre-determined pattern. Donkey Kong requires you to jump over barrels and avoid obsticles a couple thousand times during a full game. Would it be fair to say there are about 1000 keystrokes that must be executed precisely in an average expert osu! run? DK has around 2000 (rough estimate) jumps that must be executed throughout a full game, plus random elements like wild barrels, unsteerable barrels, etc. Toss in the spring screens, and amount of time it takes to complete a full game (2.5 hours +). I don't know, they're pretty different. Probably for some people osu! would be easier, and others DK would be easier.
What if osu! had random elements in it? As is, it's 100% repeatable. You memorize the stage and execute it. But what if there were a few random circles that appeared during the stages that you couldn't predict? Or if a stage lasted 2.5 hours. Would you still be able to get such high combos and 100% a level? Would fatigue become a factor? (again I'm not picking on osu! here, just making friendly discussion : )
Ok then lets talk about the pro scene, League of Legends is the biggest game currently. Again, completely different type of game. League requires teamwork above all else. Huge difference right off the bat. You'll never make it to the top without other good players teaming up with you to help you get there. Games last around 30-45 min on average. The game has a high learning curve due to the number of champions currently in play, I believe 115. Getting down to the gameplay and skills required, it is kind of a mix of DK and osu!. The beginning of the game is kind of like DK...you have to farm minions and last hit them at just the right time to get gold...kind of at the rate of jumping barrels. Toward the end, during team fights, it is more like osu! because you have to have quick reaction times and make fast decisions/keystrokes to defeat the other team and outplay them. These guys play all day every day. They're keeping their strategies on the cutting edge as the meta changes with each major tournament, champ release, or patch update to the game. Strategy and teamwork are required above all else to succeed at this game. Your goal is to outthink/outstrategize/outplay the other human team of players. As far as raw individual skill goes, I would say out of the 3, in my opinion this requires the least. It's all about teamwork.
So is it easier to 100% perfect every osu! screen, get 1.2M on Donkey Kong, or win the $1,000,000 League of Legends world championship? Probably impossible to say. Osu! definitely requires the fastest reflexes. Donkey Kong requires the most endurance. League of Legends probably requires the largest time commitment and teamwork. They're all fairly different skill sets.
It'll never happen, but I would love to see someone from TSM or Curse Gaming try to get 1,000,000 on Donkey Kong. I bet some if not all of them could. Who knows how long it would take them. I'm sure osu! players could get 1M on Donkey Kong, just like I bet some Donkey Kong players could near perfect some of those crazy osu! screens.
The only way to fairly judge people's skill levels in osu! or Donkey Kong would be to start from scratch, keep track of the number of games it takes to get a certain score, without help from anyone else or any outside source, then compare the number of games it took each person...the lower number of tries would have to be the winner.
Oh and if any of you want to join me and go for the $1M on LoL, we could beat those guys. Maybe.
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Also, one thing to take note of as well. Remember that this game has been around for 30 years, and people did compete hard core on this game back in the day, and it seems no one at that time hit 900k despite millions of people playing it. Also take note that we have players who have been playing this game not 6 months, not 1 year, but years. Steve Wiebe has been at hit for over a decade. Dean I think has been at it for over 6 years. Ross has been at it for over 6 years. Hank I think for over 4 years, and so on, and so one. See that is the thing with newer games. People pick them up, and then move on to the newer, and better things. Perhaps 2 years ago before the first Kong Off I would have agreed with you, but after 2 years of competitive play the scores are really getting respectable, and extremely hard to beat. It's not something that you can get a top score like 1.1 million in only 6 months.
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From what I can see, osu! is basically Elite Beat Agents or Donkey Konga, on crack. To get good at it, you play it over and over until you memorize the level and get fast/accurate enough to not make any mistakes. Nothing ever changes, it's always the same every time. It's pure memorization and quick reaction time. Looks like you have to have really quick fingers and mouse movements to do well at this game. Just watching it is pretty cool, it looks really tough.
I thought this as well at first, but some people can nail difficult osu! levels with only a few tries. They don't memorize them.
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From what I can see, osu! is basically Elite Beat Agents or Donkey Konga, on crack. To get good at it, you play it over and over until you memorize the level and get fast/accurate enough to not make any mistakes. Nothing ever changes, it's always the same every time. It's pure memorization and quick reaction time. Looks like you have to have really quick fingers and mouse movements to do well at this game. Just watching it is pretty cool, it looks really tough.
I thought this as well at first, but some people can nail difficult osu! levels with only a few tries. They don't memorize them.
Dang really? That's impressive. I don't know how you would know where the next circle is going to appear. I should give osu! a try it looks fun.
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There are probably millions out there that can excel in Donkey Kong if you challenged them to learn it and stick with it. I don't for people who can press buttons fast or can control a joystick fast, its all about your brain processing what it see and thinking several moves ahead.
For example, I bet the those guys who can solve a rubik's cube in 10 seconds can do well at donkley kong if they put their mind to it.
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For example, I bet the those guys who can solve a rubik's cube in 10 seconds can do well at donkley kong if they put their mind to it.
In 8th grade I was able to consistently solve a rubik's cube in under a minute. I think my best was around 35 seconds.
QED (?) ;)
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For example, I bet the those guys who can solve a rubik's cube in 10 seconds can do well at donkley kong if they put their mind to it.
Dave, you may already be aware of this, but Derrick (Exisidis2) is one of those guys.
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Oh really, I didn't know that about Derrick.
And yeah Mitch, me too, I don't remember the time, but I could solve them. LOL, I feel like Walter Day, but it was cool having the chicks come up to me saying, Can you solve my rubiks cube, but that way back in the day when it first came out and everybody had one, but only a few could sove them.
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Assuming a particular score is not fictional, any score can be beaten by anyone. Certain variables relating to individual makeup, will contribute to things like how long it would take, how much effort/learning would be involved, etc.
For example, there could certainly be someone who could get 1.1m on DK in a month playing off and on, it's possible, on the other end of the spectrum, it could take someone longer than they will end up being alive while playing every day. Both are possibilities, though extreme in nature, the majority will fall into that huge middle somewhere. The randomness of DK, interestingly enough, is likely both a help and/or a hinderance but that's what makes it interesting.
Too convoluted; dr.....Anyone can beat any non-fictional score. Depending on innate ability or other qualitative measurements, it might take someone 10 years vs 10 days but no one is incapable of anything.
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Not to nitpick or derail, but "no one is incapable of anything" is problematic.
Zero to 1.1 million in the space of one month (720 hours) is beyond extreme, it's actually not humanly possible. Assuming 12 hours per day of play (which just by itself would be a horrendous strain on the hands/wrists), that's 360 hours of play time, much/most of it under moderate to extreme fatigue and physical pain, where the player would not be in a position to learn well or perform well.
30 days, regardless of how you schedule it or the level of genius at work, is just not enough time for the brain to adapt, assimilate, observe, rest, and develop the necessary muscle memory to do 1.1. There is a LOT of learning involved.
1.1 million in 360 play-hours is certainly possible (my 903K PB is the culmination of around 400 cumulative hours and I aint no genius), but a significant amount of time spent NOT playing is necessary and has to be factored in.
Kinda like how the body can only build muscle/burn fat so fast. You can't go from flabby to ripped in a month either. Human physiology puts an inherent speed limit on stuff like this, genius notwithstanding.
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It's probably impossible to compare a game like Donkey Kong to a game like osu!. They're pretty different.
I agree. However, my point is that reaching the 99.9th (or even just 99th) percentile in osu!'s active community is, no matter how you argue it, more difficult that reaching Donkey Kong's 90th percentile. This doesn't necessarily mean one is more difficult than the other; I'd say that reaching the 99th percentile in Donkey Kong is of comparable difficulty to reaching the 99th percentile in osu!.
From what I can see, osu! is basically Elite Beat Agents or Donkey Konga, on crack. To get good at it, you play it over and over until you memorize the level and get fast/accurate enough to not make any mistakes. Nothing ever changes, it's always the same every time. It's pure memorization and quick reaction time. Looks like you have to have really quick fingers and mouse movements to do well at this game. Just watching it is pretty cool, it looks really tough.
Like I said before: There are tens of thousands of maps. This makes it hard to use memory to your advantage. The reason why I say "somewhere around the top 50" or "about in the top 60" is because since there are so many maps and such a variety of them, it's difficult to rank players. Back when there were only a couple hundred maps, the most accurate way to rate players was to have the "elite" players play them all, and the player who had the highest overall score at the end would be considered the best. However, nobody actually expects you to play every single map anymore, which makes that form of ranking impossible and inaccurate.
What if osu! had random elements in it? As is, it's 100% repeatable. You memorize the stage and execute it. But what if there were a few random circles that appeared during the stages that you couldn't predict? Or if a stage lasted 2.5 hours. Would you still be able to get such high combos and 100% a level?
I don't think random elements would make osu! much more difficult. Assuming there was a way to make a program give randomized versions maps which also aren't totally illogical, I don't think it would really make a big difference. This is the main way Beatmania players play their game. However, because there are tens of thousands of maps, the best players generally only play them a few times to put up a monster score, then move on. While memory is a factor in osu!, the game requires you to gain skills which apply to all maps much more than it requires you to memorize patterns which only apply to one. A good example of this is geometric patterns. For some reason, people naturally do semi-circular motions when they try to hit square patterns. This makes learning to hit circles in square patterns almost impossible, and some players who have played for years still can barely hit them on any map, no matter how many times they try to play it. Memory just doesn't cut it for this game. Even if it did, a "good" player who can get a good rank on a map with 1,000 plays will have 1,000x the less good ranks than someone like Cookiezi, for example, who only has to play most beatmaps a single time in order to get the best score on it.
Would fatigue become a factor?
It already is a factor. Moving your arm, hands, and fingers that much, even in short bursts, can be extremely tiring.
xi - FREEDOM DiVE (Nakagawa-Kanon) [FOUR DIMENSIONS] (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYesuQugFOM#ws)
This is the best player in the world, and he has by far the best stamina in the world. He now has a 99.97% score on that beatmap. Only around 30 or so people have even passed it, and nobody else has reached a full combo on it. The reason why is because of fatigue more than anything. However, the biggest examples of what you're looking for are these maps, which are titled "marathon maps":
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/156352 (http://osu.ppy.sh/b/156352)
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/112922 (http://osu.ppy.sh/b/112922)
The first one averages on a pretty low difficulty (though it still gets pretty hard on some parts), however it's nearly an hour long and requires around 6500 key presses. The second one is just as hard as any (well, just about any) crazy difficult map, except it's nearly 18 minutes long and requires roughly 4,000 key presses. However, most people would probably agree that the four-minute beatmap I sent a video of is more fatiguing than either of these maps, simply because of the fact that you have to press so many buttons (about 2000 presses in a 4-and-a-half-minute period) so fast for so long.
Ok then lets talk about the pro scene, League of Legends is the biggest game currently. Again, completely different type of game. League requires teamwork above all else. Huge difference right off the bat. You'll never make it to the top without other good players teaming up with you to help you get there. Games last around 30-45 min on average. The game has a high learning curve due to the number of champions currently in play, I believe 115. Getting down to the gameplay and skills required, it is kind of a mix of DK and osu!. The beginning of the game is kind of like DK...you have to farm minions and last hit them at just the right time to get gold...kind of at the rate of jumping barrels. Toward the end, during team fights, it is more like osu! because you have to have quick reaction times and make fast decisions/keystrokes to defeat the other team and outplay them. These guys play all day every day. They're keeping their strategies on the cutting edge as the meta changes with each major tournament, champ release, or patch update to the game. Strategy and teamwork are required above all else to succeed at this game. Your goal is to outthink/outstrategize/outplay the other human team of players. As far as raw individual skill goes, I would say out of the 3, in my opinion this requires the least. It's all about teamwork.
I don't think your comparison to osu! is that great. I don't think osu! requires reflexes at all, nor do I think League of Legends requires fast keystrokes. League of Legends is about teamplay, knowledge, and decision making. Osu! has no decision making involved, and is instead only about speed, accuracy, and the ability to read/plan ahead.
So is it easier to 100% perfect every osu! screen, get 1.2M on Donkey Kong, or win the $1,000,000 League of Legends world championship? Probably impossible to say. Osu! definitely requires the fastest reflexes. Donkey Kong requires the most endurance. League of Legends probably requires the largest time commitment and teamwork. They're all fairly different skill sets.
Among these, it is safe to say that 1.2M on Donkey Kong is the easiest. There's already a player capable of it; the random factors of Donkey Kong seem to be the main limit to Dean's success in this. However, even if nobody was capable of it, I'd still say 1.2M on Donkey Kong is the easiest. Like I said, there are thousands of people playing League of Legends, practicing for 12 hours a day. You have to be extremely dedicated and skilled to win the $1,000,000 world championship. As for 100% perfect on every osu! map: Assuming we exclude the ones which are impossible to get 100% even for a bot, and if we only count the more recent ranked/approved beatmaps, it'd still be ridiculously difficult and time-consuming just because of beatmaps like the two I linked up above, and all the crazy beatmaps like these:
http://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=129891&m=0&nm=1#scores (http://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=129891&m=0&nm=1#scores)
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/41823 (http://osu.ppy.sh/s/41823)
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/264090 (http://osu.ppy.sh/b/264090)
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/172662 (http://osu.ppy.sh/b/172662)
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/133938 (http://osu.ppy.sh/b/133938)
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/226605 (http://osu.ppy.sh/b/226605)
http://osu.ppy.sh/b/83975 (http://osu.ppy.sh/b/83975)
Even if we don't take into account all the time players would have to spend grinding 100% scores on easy maps, and just pretend that the hardest of the hard are the only ones to consider, I still think it'd be an impossible task. Tell someone to 100% the fourth map I sent in that list and he already lost the challenge.
Also, osu! doesn't really require reflexes or reaction time. The lowest amount of time the circles ever give you to react is 300 ms. However, even this kind of reaction can be nullified with enough memory (though seeing circles flashing that fast in front of you really can mess with your eyes sometimes). Most of osu! is speed, rhythm, and planning ahead/reading.
Ultimately, my argument wasn't that one game is inherently more difficult than the other. However, osu! and League of Legends are clearly more competitive than Donkey Kong.
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in regards to osu, just because more people play it does not make it more difficult to attain ranks. If 200,000 young people started playing DK with the dedication of getting a KS , 1m+ or whatever, they would still be years and years behind players like Phil Tudose, Dean Saglio, Vincent Lemay, and Hank Chien. I am not even sure this would make make DK any harder to attain ranks, there would just be a bunch of 150-200k players around cutting their teeth, grinding, and learning strategy. The only difference would be, instead of 40k gaps between each player it would be more like 4k.
It would take them the same amount of time in hours, relatively, that It has taken or takes one of our current members. To think that osu, has better quality gamers than DK is fucking ludicrous. Dean Saglio, Jeff Wilms, Hank Chien etc are all amazing gamers, and could literally break down and own anything they cared to put their mind to.
Osu and KOK were released the same year, and Im positive people have been playing both games since then.
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Out of curiousity, Kysou- how many times have you streamed donkey kong total? How many games are we talking about here? I have never ever seen you stream not once, and I have you followed. I never watched the video, but i've heard you KSed DK on your first ever streamed game on mame,with no input, with no audio (yet you had a mic), and haven't done much streaming since. I am not calling you out I am just curious if I have missed a bunch of your streamed games, multiple KSs, games done with full audio etc. Games submitted later with input etc? Have I missed your games or did you just stream 1 KS game then stop?
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in regards to osu, just because more people play it does not make it more difficult to attain ranks. If 200,000 young people started playing DK with the dedication of getting a KS , 1m+ or whatever, they would still be years and years behind players like Phil Tudose, Dean Saglio, Vincent Lemay, and Hank Chien. I am not even sure this would make make DK any harder to attain ranks, there would just be a bunch of 150-200k players around cutting their teeth, grinding, and learning strategy. The only difference would be, instead of 40k gaps between each player it would be more like 4k.
It would take them the same amount of time in hours, relatively, that It has taken or takes one of our current members. To think that osu, has better quality gamers than DK is fucking ludicrous. Dean Saglio, Jeff Wilms, Hank Chien etc are all amazing gamers, and could literally break down and own anything they cared to put their mind to.
Osu and KOK were released the same year, and Im positive people have been playing both games since then.
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Out of curiousity, Kysou- how many times have you streamed donkey kong total? How many games are we talking about here? I have never ever seen you stream not once, and I have you followed. I never watched the video, but i've heard you KSed DK on your first ever streamed game on mame,with no input, with no audio (yet you had a mic), and haven't done much streaming since. I am not calling you out I am just curious if I have missed a bunch of your streamed games, multiple KSs, games done with full audio etc. Games submitted later with input etc? Have I missed your games or did you just stream 1 KS game then stop?
It does make it more difficult to attain ranks if there are more active players, especially because a lot of them play 4-8 hours a day. I really don't know how else I can put it.
I haven't streamed Donkey Kong much. Maybe 12 times? My most recent completed game was a ~670k (I don't remember the exact score) on 1.05 (1.04?) million pace. And yes, I did killscreen DK on my first streamed game; it was quite a surprise for me.
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Can you send me a link to the past broadcast of the 670k at 1m+ pace? or of any game other than your KS game w/o audio? Just a practice session or an uncomplete game or anything.. I am unable to find any video of yours besides the KS game.
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I don't have it.
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I think I saw it, Shane. I'm pretty sure Christian is legit.
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Im not saying he isnt legit, I am saying that perhaps his experiences with DK have led him to believe 39th isnt hard to do, being number 1 in osu vs 1.2 in dk etc. You have to understand the culmination of 1.2 is like 5+ years dedicated to the game. I mean if i rattled off a KS on my first stream ever I would probably think DK KS is chump change too.
What I will say though, is you seem content with a very low credibility score. Had I performed a KS under those conditions I would undoubtably provide another game with primary validation concerns ( input, audio, more games). Or perhaps even a game on the cabinet that you own. Or perhaps trying to push for 1m+ games. Having attempts/practice sessions on past broadcasts for someone to go off of etc. Having just 1 single streamed game on past broadcasts with a very low credibility as a whole and be content with it is not something I personally would do or be content with. Any person that would like to study your game/techniques/potential has jack shit to go off of. This is all very relevant as you attempt to compare DK to other games/ situations within those games.
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(http://www.thetruckersreport.com/truckingindustryforum/attachments/cb-radio-forum/37216d1346733749-a-new-big-radio-on-way-8aad2dbf_derailment.jpeg.att)
What is even going on in this topic anymore? :P
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What is even going on in this topic anymore? :P
Everything! Love it!?
Ok, I understand, Shane. But I do believe he played for a while before he first streamed. I remember talking with him on FB when his score was lower. Maybe I can pull up the chat and check what his score was, and when it was.
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Im not saying he isnt legit, I am saying that perhaps his experiences with DK have led him to believe 39th isnt hard to do, being number 1 in osu vs 1.2 in dk etc. You have to understand the culmination of 1.2 is like 5+ years dedicated to the game. I mean if i rattled off a KS on my first stream ever I would probably think DK KS is chump change too.
I played for about 6 months to get that killscreen (though for a couple of the months, I wasn't playing). It took a lot of practice and frustration. I still stand by my claim that reaching a killscreen only means you are no longer a beginner. Being a low killscreen player means you won't die to 1/16 (very often), you know how to steer barrels so they won't kill you (most of the time), you know how to do the level 4 elevators consistently, and you probably know the basics of fireball behavior and control. However, you don't know anything about maximizing points per board, which is the entire reason why this game is so hard. It would take hours and hours to explain all the situations where you can maximize points; explaining how to play safely can probably be done in under an hour.
Reaching a killscreen gives you the fundamentals you need in order to take the game to the next level.
As for being #1 in osu!: The player who is the best has played for around 4 years, and he is so much better than everyone else that it's absurd. Being #1 in osu! is very comparable to being #1 in Donkey Kong, though just because that one player is so absolutely amazing (the most dominant player I've ever seen in any video game), I'd say that #1 in osu! is a bit better of an achievement, simply because you'd have to beat that guy.
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For all the bold claims you make about DK vs other games, the skill involved, and how a KS means you are just moving on from being a beginner ( you should examine the definition of beginner) I would love to be able to view some of your games, and be able to actively judge your skill level in relation to DK.
However, as it stands you have less videos / footage than any other twitch streamer that is currently a KSer and actively streams on twitch as validation. I am unable to assess your true knowledge/ skill level from the extrememly small sample size I am provided. This coupled with the claims you make about extrememly HIGH level DK play, that even at your skill level you could barely comprehend is intriguing to me.
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Ironically, just after KO2, Vincent and I started to work on our DK manuals. Even before the whole semantical/connotational issue of what constitutes a novice or non-novice DK player ever really flared up, Vince and I, almost immediately and intuitively, named our two manuals we were gonna create The Beginner's Manual and The Expert's Manual. The Beginner's Manual is about surviving to the KS. The Expert's Manual is about every point-pressing technique needed to get 1.2m.
I guess we just naturally felt lead to define those terms in relationship to both 1) the top competitive DK scores at the time, and 2) what is the actual, practical limit of scoring pace in DK. Like I said before, I don't think one should read into the terms too much... almost everyone uses the terms 'beginner' now as relative to the top players. In the current setup of things, that means only having the skill or score of a KS player. But still, some people use the term relative to other standards, so they mean it to refer to like 100k-300k players. So, one just has to ask each other what they mean when things aren't clear.
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I just think its very odd to call a player that can hit 50 L=5 springs in a row, has perfect short ladder strategy, WB strategy, can easily go entire games without dying once on barrels / springs, deep knowledge of rivet / pie strategy/tricks -- a beginner.
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I just think its very odd to call a player that can hit 50 L=5 springs in a row, has perfect short ladder strategy, WB strategy, can easily go entire games without dying once on barrels / springs, deep knowledge of rivet / pie strategy/tricks -- a beginner.
I wouldn't call someone like that a beginner. However, I also wouldn't call someone like that a person who hasn't reached the killscreen. ;>
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""However, I also wouldn't call someone like that a person who hasn't reached the killscreen. ;>""
Can you expand on this a bit? What exactly do you mean by this, the double negative is throwing me a little bit.
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If you truly have deep knowledge of the rivets and pie factories, and you also never die on barrel or spring boards, you should be able to get, as Vincent said, 5 killscreens in a day, unless, of course, the fireballs are huge dicks that day.
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Watch my last PB game... everything that ive said I did, still have not gotten a KS...
I truly have a deep knowledge of rivets and pie factories. Understand fireball behavior and can accurately gauge freezers. Never died on a barrel or spring, and can do it consistantly... Yet I do not have a KS.
Mitch knows and applies all those things as well and no KS for him either. He is even helping write a book on DK strategy.....
So tbh that isnt accurate at all. It could just be a product of luck or lack thereof.
Watch the game for yourself, 1 pie and 3 rivet deaths. Was on 19-2 with 2 men left, no barrel or spring deaths
http://www.twitch.tv/shane_nc/c/2805453 (http://www.twitch.tv/shane_nc/c/2805453)
Yea this is just one game, but if you would like I will link you 3 different sessions that I made 500k+ with no barrel or spring deaths.
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I watched it live. Surely you can admit that those pie factories were a little sloppy compared to someone with a truly deep understanding of them, yes? Even if you understand them well, however, if your execution is still at a beginner level, then you are still a beginner.
Once you understand point pressing and can execute it decently enough to get deep into the game at a decent (1mil or more) pace, you are entering the moderate level of play.
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"""""""" Quote from Kyou-kun: I watched it live. Surely you can admit that those pie factories were a little sloppy compared to someone with a truly deep understanding of them, yes? Even if you understand them well, however, if your execution is still at a beginner level, then you are still a beginner.
Once you understand point pressing and can execute it decently enough to get deep into the game at a decent (1mil or more) pace, you are entering the moderate level of play. """""""
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Wow im absolutely dumbfounded.... You just did not say that..
You are fucking retarded.. period.
http://www.twitch.tv/shane_nc/c/2874776 (http://www.twitch.tv/shane_nc/c/2874776)
Here is the highlight of the last 2 deaths for anyone that is interested in watching. These were not freebies, I did not make a very bad stupid mistake. It's not like I got hit in the foot by a pie, or made some type of beginner mistake, these were difficult pies that in the moment I was unable to notice split second openings and execute them safely during my best ever game.
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Oh no you didn't! ;D
Thar be rage a brewin' 'round these parts...
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I am formally offering a $50 bounty to Kyou-Kun (Christian) if at 9pm EST tomorrow night, you fire up mame save state on level=05 Pie factory and can do better than my first attempt streamed live on twitch of 93/100 PF completed.
http://www.twitch.tv/shane_nc/b/456643042 (http://www.twitch.tv/shane_nc/b/456643042)
If you complete 94 or more out of 100 you have won yourself $50, I will even send the $50 to a middle man if you do not want me to have your address. Or I will donate the $50 to any players KO3 airfare that you choose. Challenge is there, put up or shut up.
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No can do. I'll be busy tomorrow. Not that I think it would really mean much, especially when playing on illegal versions of MAME and while playing savestates, which permits seed farming, which means that it isn't really comparable to just playing them in a real game.
Edit: Just realized what day "tomorrow" was at the time that was posted. In that case, I suppose I can do it.
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I am not exactly sure what seed farming is but all the pie factories were different from each other and feel free to view the entire broadcast in its entirety. They werent all freebies or anything like that, there were some very tough screens in those 100. Not to mention my integrity goes without question. Best of luck to you trying to hit 94+ out of 100. It can be down but it is going to be hard to beat. Ill have my checkbook ready, good luck
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OK, here is what I think should be the standard definition of beginner. One who can't pass the level 4 elevator springs.
Here is the definition of beginner. A person just starting to learn a skill or take part in an activity.
There are people who have played this game for years who have not hit the killscreen. Allen Staal has played this game what? Over 6500 times. I would hardly call Allen a beginner. The truth is if I went to a bowling alley right now, and played their ultracade, and got a score of 300k if someone actually watched that game who is not in the community they would say "Wow you really know how to play that game". Like Robert Mruckzek says in the King of Kong "The average person will not pass the 4th level elevator stage."
Beginner is a term for those who are just starting out. Making the killscreen the bar to not be a beginner is a bar that's too high.
Sides that is making a very wide standard for beginner. The term loses it's meaning if you apply a standard like that. What I mean is if you say something like "Oh, that guy is a begginer." Well guess what you could mean anything from a person who can't get a score higher than 50,000 to a person who has a 750,000 point score. I would think you would agree that there is a huge difference between 50k to 750k. But since beginner is the lowest level when you use that type of descriptor it loses it's meaning.
I think these would be better terms.
Beginner: 1 to 100,000 points
Recreational player: 100,000 to 299,900 points
Intermediate player: 300,000 to 599,900 points
Expert player: 600,000 to Killscreen
Master player: Killscreen to 999,900 points
Senior Master player: 1,000,000 to 1,099,900 points
Grand Master player: 1,100,000 to 1,186,600 points
Best: 1,186,700 points
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I think there is always going to be a difference in terms used based upon speaking outside or inside the classic gaming community.
Someone outside the community might think I'm the best DK player they've ever seen, inside the community, that classification would be vastly different.
When my wife or brother or someone outside the community asks me if I'm good at some game, I always inquire whether they mean compared to some random person or like Donald Hayes, because generally I'll say no or that I'm ok but my default comparison is usually a top gamer on that title rather than a casual arcade patron.
Robert in KoK was speaking of a casual arcade patron when he spoke of an average gamer, not necessarily an average gamer within the hobby IMO. There is a huge difference.
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I think there is always going to be a difference in terms used based upon speaking outside or inside the classic gaming community.
Someone outside the community might think I'm the best DK player they've ever seen, inside the community, that classification would be vastly different.
When my wife or brother or someone outside the community asks me if I'm good at some game, I always inquire whether they mean compared to some random person or like Donald Hayes, because generally I'll say no or that I'm ok but my default comparison is usually a top gamer on that title rather than a casual arcade patron.
Robert in KoK was speaking of a casual arcade patron when he spoke of an average gamer, not necessarily an average gamer within the hobby IMO. There is a huge difference.
Again, it has to do with a specific standard. Something that can give me a general idea of how good that player is. Labeling two different players with scores of 50,000 and 750,000 respectively with the same title is wrong. Also I wouldn't like it if the 50,000 person was labeled and expert along with the 750k person. Again the same problem exists. A person with a 50,000 point game is vastly different from a person with a 750,000 point game. They should not be given the same skill level titles. It's a horrible way to describe how skilled they are at the game.
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I think there is always going to be a difference in terms used based upon speaking outside or inside the classic gaming community.
Someone outside the community might think I'm the best DK player they've ever seen, inside the community, that classification would be vastly different.
When my wife or brother or someone outside the community asks me if I'm good at some game, I always inquire whether they mean compared to some random person or like Donald Hayes, because generally I'll say no or that I'm ok but my default comparison is usually a top gamer on that title rather than a casual arcade patron.
Robert in KoK was speaking of a casual arcade patron when he spoke of an average gamer, not necessarily an average gamer within the hobby IMO. There is a huge difference.
Again, it has to do with a specific standard. Something that can give me a general idea of how good that player is. Labeling two different players with scores of 50,000 and 750,000 respectively with the same title is wrong. Also I wouldn't like it if the 50,000 person was labeled and expert along with the 750k person. Again the same problem exists. A person with a 50,000 point game is vastly different from a person with a 750,000 point game. They should not be given the same skill level titles. It's a horrible way to describe how skilled they are at the game.
You would need to define the arena in which are using your comparison. Those who are involved in the classic gaming community and those who are not for example? I see plenty of recreational players at the local arcade. They are nowhere near 300k on DK.
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I think there is always going to be a difference in terms used based upon speaking outside or inside the classic gaming community.
Someone outside the community might think I'm the best DK player they've ever seen, inside the community, that classification would be vastly different.
When my wife or brother or someone outside the community asks me if I'm good at some game, I always inquire whether they mean compared to some random person or like Donald Hayes, because generally I'll say no or that I'm ok but my default comparison is usually a top gamer on that title rather than a casual arcade patron.
Robert in KoK was speaking of a casual arcade patron when he spoke of an average gamer, not necessarily an average gamer within the hobby IMO. There is a huge difference.
Again, it has to do with a specific standard. Something that can give me a general idea of how good that player is. Labeling two different players with scores of 50,000 and 750,000 respectively with the same title is wrong. Also I wouldn't like it if the 50,000 person was labeled and expert along with the 750k person. Again the same problem exists. A person with a 50,000 point game is vastly different from a person with a 750,000 point game. They should not be given the same skill level titles. It's a horrible way to describe how skilled they are at the game.
You would need to define the arena in which are using your comparison. Those who are involved in the classic gaming community and those who are not for example? I see plenty of recreational players at the local arcade. They are nowhere near 300k on DK.
Well that's the upper end of recreational level. The lower end is the lower 100's. So I guess you could go even more specific.
Lower end recreational player 100,000 to 200,000
Upper end recreational player 200,000 to 300,000
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I think trying to apply titles is thinking too deeply. In the fighting game community because I've won money i'm considered 'pro' but honestly I couldn't care less about being pro, what matters to me is who I've beaten and what place I got in tournaments. To me accomplishments and milestones are how I rate myself. I look at the score list for DKJR and look at the people at the top and imagine myself up there and that is what I look to do.
What matters most is what you believe you can accomplish and how well you apply yourself to that potential. You can call yourself anything you want if you reach those goals.
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My definition of a Donkey Kong "beginner" is pretty basic.
The next time you're in a classic arcade and spot an unfamiliar person playing DK, conduct this simple experiment:
Watch their game from the start. If and when they reach Level 3-2, observe their facial expression. If the debut of the pie factory triggers a puzzled or surprised reaction, you've identified a beginner.
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Pie what? You mean there's other stages than just the barrel ones?
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Haven't read through all the posts here so sorry if I am repeating someone else's idea; but I would like to see a competition where the best average score, minimum of say 4 or 5 games, decides the winner. That would mean no restarting if you die on level 1 or 2. Once you start a game that counts as a game.
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Haven't read through all the posts here so sorry if I am repeating someone else's idea; but I would like to see a competition where the best average score, minimum of say 4 or 5 games, decides the winner. That would mean no restarting if you die on level 1 or 2. Once you start a game that counts as a game.
That's a great idea in theory, but what ends up happening is everyone would start running boards and there'd be no point pressing at all because on average you will score higher just running boards. The game is still challenging without any point pressing but there are a few players who can killscreen "at will" (say >50% of the time). From a spectator standpoint it's more interesting to watch some point pressing and from the players standpoint it makes the tournament strategy more interesting ("Should I gamble for 1st place or get a safe 3rd place score?"). This was actually Richie's original idea for the KO format but was eventually tossed out.
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That's a good point.
I suppose a rule could be put in place requiring the using of the lower level hammer, but then that starts to force game play strategy and wouldn't feel right.
I've also wondered about fastest killscreen time as a comp. A game with no lives lost would take what? About 80 min or so?
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I've also wondered about fastest killscreen time as a comp. A game with no lives lost would take what? About 80 min or so?
Now that would make a great competition, especially for spectators. Do a simultaneous start and it's a side by side race. I think Vincent's 1st man killscreen was 70 mins? Not sure.
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Imagine all the machines lined up; the starting gun firing, and then the sprint to get to 22-1. Awesome.
Having limited time to play, my next goal is a one man killscreen.
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A storm is about to hit SRL
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At the first Kong Off, we had a mini-speedrun competition-- speedrun to the end of L5. It was exciting for everyone. I think Billy, Dave McCrary and I were neck and neck until the end. Dave McCrary won.
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A storm is about to hit SRL
whats going on at SRL?
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whats going on at SRL?
Nothing yet
It's about to hit
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At the first Kong Off, we had a mini-speedrun competition-- speedrun to the end of L5. It was exciting for everyone. I think Billy, Dave McCrary and I were neck and neck until the end. Dave McCrary won.
If Phil would've participated, he would've probably been dead last. He would've been trying for at least 12k on 1-1 before advancing to the next level.
Ironically, I personally took a lot of risks on that speedrun challenge, and I finished it on my last man, haha. YOLO all the way!
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What's SRL? :o
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Speed Runs Live. Check it out!:
www.speedrunslive.com (http://www.speedrunslive.com)
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How to seperate the champs from the posers: Champs excel at a wide assortment of arcade games. Posers only play DK related games.
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Oh, shut up.
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:o
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Search your feelings.. You know it to be true.:)
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Yes, Master Jedi.
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There is a List subforum. Perhaps a list is needed that actually separates Champs from Posers? First, I guess a consensus needs to be formed on the defining criteria of a Champ and a Poser to make it somewhat accurate, as the definitions up to this point have been quite subjective. Next, everyone needs to provide a list of arcade games you have played, and roughly how much time you have put into the respective games. High Scores would be nice to include as well. Steve is the moderator of the List forum, so he gets to should have the honor of placing individuals into their proper classifications. :)
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i play poser games at a pro pace Kappa
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Let's make this happen. I could make a pretty persuasive argument for being number one on the poser list.
I die the instant I so much as think about point-pressing because just looking at the bottom hammer makes the game infinitely harder, I'd never heard of Donkey Kong or arcade games until the King of Kong was available to Watch Now on Netflix, I hate, fear, avoid, and suck at all video games that are not Donkey Kong-related, I'm addicted to MAME (I play every day), and my self-esteem is based solely around how everyone feels about me and my accomplishments in relation to these facts.
ChrisP for Poser President, 2013.
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There is a List subforum. Perhaps a list is needed that actually separates Champs from Posers? First, I guess a consensus needs to be formed on the defining criteria of a Champ and a Poser to make it somewhat accurate, as the definitions up to this point have been quite subjective. Next, everyone needs to provide a list of arcade games you have played, and roughly how much time you have put into the respective games. High Scores would be nice to include as well. Steve is the moderator of the List forum, so he gets to should have the honor of placing individuals into their proper classifications. :)
Hey Mark, we both are champs! We got those badges on the bottom that say so! ;)
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ChrisP for Poser President, 2013.
How about Parker Posey as a running mate?
Yeah, I know it's not an exact match, but it's close enough.
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ChrisP for Poser President, 2013.
Vote ChrisP... the "P" stands for "Poser"!
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i play poser games at a pro pace Kappa
In Canada, I thought they were called "hoser games".
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haha i love the last 2 comments. booya
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I have over a million points in pacman so maybe that means I am not a poser. ;)
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First, I guess a consensus needs to be formed on the defining criteria of a Champ and a Poser to make it somewhat accurate, as the definitions up to this point have been quite subjective.
We have 2 pretty good definitions:
1- Tim's:
...to be able to average 55k per level starting at L=5 to qualify.this will all but eliminate the hacks...
My interpretation: you need to have a DK score of 1.05M to be a champ.
2- George's:
How to seperate the champs from the posers: Champs excel at a wide assortment of arcade games. Posers only play DK related games.
My interpretation: you must be better than George at 3 non-DK related arcade games to be a champ.
Perhaps we should have 2 lists (1 for each definition). I'm a champ by Tim's definition. I think I'm a poser by George's.
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The poser list should be open to anyone who wants to be on it. The definitions can be applied to those who don't.
I'm 2nd in line outside the poser ticket window (not sure how Chris got here before me).
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Mario Bros doesn't count as a DK related game. You're pretty good at that, right, Hank? So Mario Bros, Centipede and Millipede. So you're a champ in my book! :)
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My interpretation: you must be better than George at 3 non-DK related arcade games to be a champ.
Perhaps we should have 2 lists (1 for each definition). I'm a champ by Tim's definition. I think I'm a poser by George's.
I might have George Leutz beat in 3 non DK games. Hopefully he can respond to see if I do.
Here are my decent non DK scores. All MAME of course
1942 414,430
Congo Bongo 84,550
Exciting Hour 274,400
Frogger 30,320
Galaxian 50,390
Gorf 23,320
Lady Bug 43,830
Moon Patrol 165,410
Robotron 97,400
Zaxxon 149,050
So what of it George? Do I have 3 scores that are better than your scores on these games?
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Mario Bros doesn't count as a DK related game. You're pretty good at that, right, Hank? So Mario Bros, Centipede and Millipede. So you're a champ in my book! :)
Had to look at BOTA scores...
You're better than me at Mario Bros.:
http://www.aurcade.com/events/game.aspx?id=607 (http://www.aurcade.com/events/game.aspx?id=607)
But I edged you out on Ms. Pac Turbo:
http://www.aurcade.com/events/game.aspx?id=599 (http://www.aurcade.com/events/game.aspx?id=599)
Phew... I didn't want to wait on the poser line.
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Come on, George, you know MAME doesn't count! :)
But if it did, here's the comparison:
1942: don't know, so we'll say you win.
Congo Bongo: don't know, you win.
Exciting hour: don't even know what that is.
Froggy: I think I've got you beat by 5-10k. I think my score from the first BotA was between 35-40k
Galaxian: somewhere around 25k. So you got me there.
Gorf: no idea again.
Lady Bug: 352k hard difficulty, 420somethingk medium difficulty.
Moon Patrol: I was somewhere around 120-30k when they took the machine out of barcade. So you got me by a little.
Robotron: when I was playing regularly I was somewhere around 700k. I get a few hundred thousand on a casual game though. 5man around 180-200k on my best game.
Zaxxon: around 70k I think? I used to go to barcade in Jersey City once or twice a month and that's as far as I got. Haven't been there in months though.
I think comparing mame to real scores is like apples to oranges though. I'd be curious to see if your arcade scores equal your mame scores. I would bet the practice you do on mame would help your arcade scores. So if mame counted, you'd be a champ in my book, George! :)
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Come on, George, you know MAME doesn't count! :)
But if it did, here's the comparison:
1942: don't know, so we'll say you win.
Congo Bongo: don't know, you win.
Exciting hour: don't even know what that is.
Froggy: I think I've got you beat by 5-10k. I think my score from the first BotA was between 35-40k
Galaxian: somewhere around 25k. So you got me there.
Gorf: no idea again.
Lady Bug: 352k hard difficulty, 420somethingk medium difficulty.
Moon Patrol: I was somewhere around 120-30k when they took the machine out of barcade. So you got me by a little.
Robotron: when I was playing regularly I was somewhere around 700k. I get a few hundred thousand on a casual game though. 5man around 180-200k on my best game.
Zaxxon: around 70k I think? I used to go to barcade in Jersey City once or twice a month and that's as far as I got. Haven't been there in months though.
I think comparing mame to real scores is like apples to oranges though. I'd be curious to see if your arcade scores equal your mame scores. I would bet the practice you do on mame would help your arcade scores. So if mame counted, you'd be a champ in my book, George! :)
Sounds cool to me! I'm a champ if MAME counted! Yeah! 8)
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Yeah, you've got me on Ms Pac turbo, Hank... For now! :)
I wanted to add though, that maybe I shouldn't have said one needs to "excel" at non-DK related games to be a champ. Effort counts. Just being on a BotA team proves you have a lot of arcade gaming heart, and are a champ in my book!
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Love BOTA. Love it. Even if it made me play Mappy once.
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Yeah, you've got me on Ms Pac turbo, Hank... For now! :)
I wanted to add though, that maybe I shouldn't have said one needs to "excel" at non-DK related games to be a champ. Effort counts. Just being on a BotA team proves you have a lot of arcade gaming heart, and are a champ in my book!
Yeah, but the average player will never be on a BotA team. Mostly because the 'official' arcades are nowhere near any of us. Kappa.
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BOTA was fun and I do look the forward to the next one.
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Yeah, but the average player will never be on a BotA team. Mostly because the 'official' arcades are nowhere near any of us. Kappa.
You a make your own team! You just need 8 players and an arcade willing to host it. It can even be a home arcade.