Donkey Kong Forum

Other Classic Arcade Games => Classic Arcade Game Discussion => Topic started by: gstrain on April 11, 2016, 08:27:51 pm

Title: Strange Scores
Post by: gstrain on April 11, 2016, 08:27:51 pm
There was an interesting discussion going on over on Mark Alpiger's forums (CAGDC) about "strange scores" that had touched on how back in the 80's Billy Mitchell would travel around the country challenging the questionable scores of players, most famously about claims of scores of 3.4M+ on Pac-Man which would have required passing the split screen.  I'd mentioned I thought it was ironic how things had come full circle and how it is now some of Billy's later Donkey Kong scores which quite a few people have become skeptical of, most famously dramatized in the movie King of Kong, but also fed fuel by Billy's less than stellar showings at the live Kong Off events.

Well the conversation was moving in an interesting direction with questions being asked about the circumstances of some of Billy's later Donkey Kong scores, especially his "new DK and DK Jr World Records done live the same day" at Boomers in July 2010.  Unfortunately just as conversation was getting interesting and it looked like fresh looks at the videos from Boomers were yielding new information, Mark Alpiger decided to abruptly end the inquiry and lock the discussion about the facts of the event.

Of course it's always disappointing when conversation is stifled, especially when on such an important subject as the integrity of high scores.  That said, if CAGDC doesn't care to discuss questions about scores which it has trumpeted in its news banner, that's Mark's decision to make and direction to set, and I respect that.

Regardless, I thought I'd take the discussion started at CAGDC and invite others here to join into the conversation in a freer environment.  Here's the original thread with a relevant starting point: http://www.classicarcadegaming.com/forums/index.php/topic,679.msg75010.html#msg75010 (http://www.classicarcadegaming.com/forums/index.php/topic,679.msg75010.html#msg75010)
Title: Re: Strange Scores
Post by: alumbrada on April 11, 2016, 08:33:41 pm
 <popcorn>
Title: Re: Strange Scores
Post by: homerwannabee on April 11, 2016, 08:34:24 pm
Well my first idea got shot down about why there is music instead of real sound.  Well maybe the real conversation was so boring the original poster went with music instead.  I mean we are talking about taking out, and putting back in an arcade rom.  Not the most entertaining stuff.
Title: Re: Strange Scores
Post by: tilt on April 11, 2016, 09:13:32 pm
 <Pigger> "Let's step carefully, George...  You (and / or "lot of people") are veering towards defamation here.  I only allowed your post because it's factual (I've been hearing burbles about this for years), and you used the word 'skeptical'.  But, let's make no bones about it - this is at the line, and let's not pursue this here."

Now, to be honest, no place is really a 'good' place for this conversation.  While the chitbox rambling may go on and on, nothing cohesive has formed (for the most part).  I feel as if this may be a decent place to put some of the 'evidence' that people point to when talking about the fishiness ( 8) ) of the scores.  I won't discuss my opinions on this in this topic, but I will provide some videos to get a conversation of sorts started.  If this is not a good place for this discussion, I will remove this post.
Billy Mitchell 'Boomer' DK JR board swap: http://youtu.be/O_5cuc-ayP0 (http://youtu.be/O_5cuc-ayP0)

Billy Mitchell 'Florida Mortgage Broker' score 1.0502m: http://youtu.be/Y0ZKEGZpggI (http://youtu.be/Y0ZKEGZpggI)

Billy Mitchell KoK score, 1.047m: http://youtu.be/KYtJzRcvOzk (http://youtu.be/KYtJzRcvOzk)

Please note that in the video of the "board swap", a DK JR pcb is swapped out for the same DK JR pcb.  Take that as you will.
Title: Re: Strange Scores
Post by: WCopeland on April 11, 2016, 09:15:44 pm
I'm sure this thread will end well <stirpot>
Title: Re: Strange Scores
Post by: homerwannabee on April 11, 2016, 09:25:41 pm
Interesting tidbit from that video.

Billy Mitchell, "It's a good thing we got rob here, because as good as I can play this game I couldn't switch the board out, and the board in.....................I am not too sure I am going to admit anything else though."
Title: Re: Strange Scores
Post by: tilt on April 11, 2016, 09:55:04 pm
<Billy> I am not too sure I am going to admit anything else though. <Billy>
As I said, the videos speak for themselves.
Title: Re: Strange Scores
Post by: xelnia on April 11, 2016, 09:57:18 pm
Boomers was the 1.06 score, not the 1.05. There is no "tape" of the Boomers score that anyone knows of.
Title: Re: Strange Scores
Post by: tilt on April 11, 2016, 10:01:39 pm
Quote from: xelnia on April 11, 2016, 09:57:18 pm
Boomers was the 1.06 score, not the 1.05. There is no "tape" of the Boomers score that anyone knows of.
My mistake.  The 1.0502 is actually the mortgage convention or whatever lol.
Title: Re: Strange Scores
Post by: xelnia on April 11, 2016, 10:19:26 pm
Just to recap, Billy's supposed 1M games:

1,014,000 - sometime in 2004 - I think only Robert Mruczek has seen this tape and it might be the one that got eaten by his VCR.

1,047,200 - June 2004 - the Funspot / King of Kong tape. Direct feed. Who knows when this game actually happened. Billy claims this was a live score.

1,050,200 - July 2007 - the Florida Association of Mortgage Brokers tape. Also direct feed. Billy supposedly played in a back room away from the crowd.

1,062,800 - July 2010 - the Boomers score. Although claimed to be recorded, there is no known footage of this game.

As best as can be determined, Billy has never scored 1M+ in any live, neutral venue or event. His highest known live score, reported by Joel West, is 982,000. This was reportedly a killscreen game that occurred at AVGC in September 2015. Previously, there were rumors that his personal best was in the 1,120,000 range. Recently, Billy himself claimed that his personal best is higher than Hank's 1,138,600 but not as high as the 1.17 scores put up by Robbie and Wes.
Title: Re: Strange Scores
Post by: gstrain on April 11, 2016, 11:53:38 pm
Griley was watching the "Billy Mitchell speaks (july,2010) moments after breaking donkey kong record" video from Boomers (! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFLGF933tgc#)) today and commented that if you watch closely at 1:25 and 1:32 into the video you can see the screen of the machine behind Billy very briefly.  griley knows both Jr and DK very well and thinks the screen looks like it is DK Jr rather than DK.  If so, and maybe griley or other experts care to chime in, it is rather odd that the game would be showing DK Jr if in fact a DK record had been set on it moments before. 
Title: Re: Strange Scores
Post by: ChrisP on April 12, 2016, 12:06:08 am
Quote from: xelnia on April 11, 2016, 10:19:26 pm
1,047,200 - June 2004 - the Funspot / King of Kong tape. Direct feed. Who knows when this game actually happened. Billy claims this was a live score.

The tape was first seen on June 4th, 2005 at Funspot 7 (and we all know how that went down). The alleged performance date, according to an ancient Wayback Machine snapshot, was almost exactly one year prior, June 7th, 2004.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say it was a "live" score. I'm not aware of any claim of Billy's to that effect, but then, as far as I know, I don't think Billy has ever owned a DK either, so unless it was at somebody else's house, it would have to been "live" in the sense of "live" being at a public location. Nobody really knows anything about this score though (except  <Billy>).

See attachment.

Also, just for fun and sorta off-topic, I included a Wayback snapshot of the DK scoreboard from March 2005, just before KoK started filming. :) As can be seen, BTW, <Tim> was a distant third before the movie was underway, and it was clearly a two-man race between Billy and Steve by the time they started rolling...

P.S. LOL, that top 10. what a decade-plus it's been! Poor Leo Daniels. From 9th place in 2005 to 127th in 2016.
Title: Re: Strange Scores
Post by: gstrain on April 12, 2016, 12:39:10 am
Quote from: gstrain on April 11, 2016, 08:27:51 pm
... also fed fuel by Billy's less than stellar showings at the live Kong Off events.
Here's Billy's results from the 3 Kong Off events he attended:

The Kong Off 1
March 19-20, 2011
Richie Knucklez' Arcade Games - Flemington, NJ

[noembed]
Place     Score     Player   
   1     994,900     Hank Chien
   2     986,900     Steve Wiebe
   3     941,800     Eric Howard
   4     912,800     Dean Saglio
   5     851,900     Vincent Lemay
   6     846,800     Ben Falls
   7     821,200     Billy Mitchell
[/noembed]

The Kong Off 2
November 16-18, 2012
The 1Up - Denver, CO

[noembed]
Place     Score     Player   
   1     1,105,400     Jeff Willms
   2     1,079,400     Dean Saglio
   3     1,006,700     Steve Wiebe
   4        996,800     Hank Chien
   5        996,200     Kyle Goewert
   6        988,000     Vincent Lemay
   7        943,700     Mark Kiehl
   8        901,900     Billy Mitchell
[/noembed]

The Kong Off 3
November 15-17, 2013
The 1Up - Denver, CO

KO3 Final Results
[noembed]
Place     Score     Player   
   1     1,096,200     Jeff Willms
   2     1,067,100     Ross Benziger
   3     1,056,900     Hank Chien
   4     1,053,200     Steve Wiltshire
   5     1,048,800     Steve Wiebe
   6     1,033,000     Dean Saglio
   7     1,032,000     Dave McCrary (overall Wildcard winner)
   8     1,020,700     Mike Groesbeck
   9     1,006,500     Kyle Goewert
  10     989,700     Vincent Lemay
  11     893,300     Corey Chambers
  12     891,200     Jonathan McCourt
  13     883,300     Eric Tessler
  14     840,300     Robbie Lakeman
  15     809,200     Jeff Wolfe
  16     736,800     Ben Falls
  17     711,400     Ethan Daniels
  18     703,600     Aaron Rounsaville
  19     702,500     Daniel Desjardins
  20     680,000     Daniel Dock
  21     639,300     Shaun Boyd
  22     598,800     Billy Mitchell

For whatever reason, at these neutral live events Billy failed to perform near the level of his previously submitted TG scores and was consistently beaten by a wide margin by his King of Kong nemesis Steve Wiebe,  later DK world champion Hank Chien, MAME world champion Dean Saglio, and other players.
Title: Re: Strange Scores
Post by: homerwannabee on April 12, 2016, 12:54:09 am
OK, you don't need to be an expert to realize this is a Donkey Kong Junior screen.  I ask ANYONE.  To just start a Donkey Kong Junior game.  The game has Insert Coin, and Player Coin in different Colors.  Now go to a Donkey Kong game.  The Insert Coin, and Player Coin are in the same color.  Now check out Billy Mitchell's screen in the background.  It's in different colors were the Insert Coin, and Player Coin is.


But the most obvious evidence is at 1:31.  Check it out yourself.  Are those vines you see or ladders?  They are vines.  Even being super fuzzy it's plain as day they are vines.

Maybe another person can refute me.  That actually would be nice.
Title: Re: Strange Scores
Post by: marky_d on April 12, 2016, 01:00:53 am
It's really obvious at 2:04 in the video.
Title: Re: Strange Scores
Post by: Barra on April 12, 2016, 01:14:04 am
Looks like a chit game to me. Kappa

http://imgur.com/NG5X9fU (http://imgur.com/NG5X9fU)
Title: Re: Strange Scores
Post by: LMDAVE on April 12, 2016, 06:40:15 am
Oh, this is an oldie but goodie topic. The video that had me question it the most back then was this after the DK junior score was achieved. Just the things said by Todd and why didn't they just point the camera at the screen in this video? Billy backs up real quick to cover the screen. And all Todd says is, everyone will know when they see the video. Don't know, just seemed strange. Most people would go straight to the machine that the score was just achieved on and show the score.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvdrEgk2l6g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvdrEgk2l6g)
Title: Re: Strange Scores
Post by: xelnia on April 12, 2016, 08:30:17 am
Quote from: ChrisP on April 12, 2016, 12:06:08 am
I'm not sure what you mean when you say it was a "live" score. I'm not aware of any claim of Billy's to that effect, but then, as far as I know, I don't think Billy has ever owned a DK either, so unless it was at somebody else's house, it would have to been "live" in the sense of "live" being at a public location. Nobody really knows anything about this score though (except  <Billy>).

Just what I said. (https://www.twitch.tv/muscleandfitness/v/32378833?t=11m15s)

11:27: "Right. The Tape. Well maybe they mean the tape from the movie."
12:27: "But the game itself was actually played in a room in front of, you know, crowds and crowds of people. And I never actually had...I never actually had access, um, to the board."

So, a clear claim that the 1,047,200 was done in front of a crowd. Also, this is a direct feed game...but he didn't have access to the PCB?  ??? Am I wrong that this was a direct feed game?

Title: Re: Strange Scores
Post by: ChrisP on April 12, 2016, 04:32:41 pm
dafkk?

Wow, I wasn't watching when that interview happened.

So the 1,047 was supposedly played in front of "crowds and crowds of people," but in the movie the tape was given to Brian/Doris as if it was top secret nuclear codes and nobody had ever seen it before.

If this game had live witnesses, who were the witnesses, what was the venue, and why was it a surprise to everybody at Funspot if it was a public game??

I've actually been waiting since just after KO2 for a public discussion of this to happen. ;D I was *ahem* awakened around that time. I wasn't gonna push the issue, but it's interesting to see it come out of the closet.

 <popcorn>
Title: Re: Strange Scores
Post by: SanTe on April 12, 2016, 04:46:38 pm
Quote from: gstrain on April 11, 2016, 08:27:51 pm
Unfortunately just as conversation was getting interesting and it looked like fresh looks at the videos from Boomers were yielding new information, Mark Alpiger decided to abruptly end the inquiry and lock the discussion about the facts of the event.

I am Jack's complete lack of surprise.
Title: Re: Strange Scores
Post by: Verminator on April 12, 2016, 08:24:02 pm
Quote from: homerwannabee on April 12, 2016, 12:54:09 am
OK, you don't need to be an expert to realize this is a Donkey Kong Junior screen.  I ask ANYONE.  To just start a Donkey Kong Junior game.  The game has Insert Coin, and Player Coin in different Colors.  Now go to a Donkey Kong game.  The Insert Coin, and Player Coin are in the same color.  Now check out Billy Mitchell's screen in the background.  It's in different colors were the Insert Coin, and Player Coin is.


But the most obvious evidence is at 1:31.  Check it out yourself.  Are those vines you see or ladders?  They are vines.  Even being super fuzzy it's plain as day they are vines.

Maybe another person can refute me.  That actually would be nice.

You are 100% correct... it was a DK Jr screen. I keep trying to freeze that split second the screen is visible but am not able to... but there were clearly vines.
Title: Re: Strange Scores
Post by: CaptainJivePants on April 13, 2016, 10:36:40 am
I can tell DK is in a cage around the 2:04 mark. Definitely a DK Jr. screen.   <popcorn>


I'm also still not sure what <Pigger> was thinking as far as defamation. That thread did amuse me. Too bad he didn't let it keep going.
Title: Re: Strange Scores
Post by: f_symbols on April 13, 2016, 12:05:56 pm
http://i.imgur.com/dxYRGWK.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/dxYRGWK.jpg)

EDIT:  <popcorn>
Title: Re: Strange Scores
Post by: gstrain on April 13, 2016, 01:50:33 pm
Quote from: f_symbols on April 13, 2016, 12:05:56 pm
http://i.imgur.com/dxYRGWK.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/dxYRGWK.jpg)

EDIT:  <popcorn>
I think the key question to be asking is if this "moments after breaking donkey kong record" video was made before they made the "board swap" video converting the machine from DK Jr to DK Jr, or after.
Title: Re: Strange Scores
Post by: ChrisP on April 13, 2016, 02:21:53 pm
My question, and I'm serious about it, is why did they go out of their way to shoot, and then post, videos from that day which are both totally unnecessary and self-incriminating?

If nobody's asking for a video of a board-swap, and you don't have both a DK and a DK Junior boardset in your posession on the day when you supposedly used both, and the video is going to end up having to be an obvious Junior for Junior swap, then I dunno, call me crazy, but maybe it would be better to just not film or upload the video at all??
Title: Re: Strange Scores
Post by: Fast Eddie on April 13, 2016, 02:24:27 pm
Iv seen the board swap video before, and noted they swapped the exact same JR board in and out. I never heard the audio before though, and it really is pretty damning, "we have a donkey kong board in our hands".

The billy mitchell speaks video does not read like it was filmed between records, they talk like both records are done and its over. With the feel and background noise of the videos id speculate that all three videos (billy speaks, board swap, new jr record) were shot within minutes, not hours, of each other...

8)
Title: Re: Strange Scores
Post by: LMDAVE on April 13, 2016, 04:01:24 pm
Yeah there are so many shady things in the videos. Another one being it's known that Billy's tapes/submission are direct feed. There was no sign of a cable leaving the cabinet going to a direct feed recorder. I'm not ever sure how you do it, do you split the RGB feed to the monitor and go straight to a VHS, etc..

About the first video being done before or in between, the board swap video gives the indication that Billy starts the DK Jr. right after the board swap. SO he would have had to die then step away record the first video shows DK Jr in the back ground. And of course the funny thing about the after the DK Jr record, Rob must have left, went home and went to sleep, because Billy got him out of bed to come see the record.



Title: Re: Strange Scores
Post by: jammyyy on April 13, 2016, 05:12:56 pm
The direct feed would have to be off the pcb , so ether they split the video line to monitor and one to a RGBS to RCA component adapter for a VCR , and it would have to be after A  inverter board to be pos inverted for the VCR. if it was a Nintendo inverter board it one in put and two out puts Inverted  and non - inverted. so the non-inverted could go to monitor and the pos inverded could go to a RGBS to RCA component adapter for a VCR. i didn't see any thing that look like that :)  it all makes no sens to even record the game if its being done live, its not needed. and why in 2010-11 i cant remember would you even use a VCR there lots of USB capture devises that have RCA component input to record on computer with .... why would any one want to drag a VCR to a remote location to record when you dont have to set the record in first place?.... it is what it is ,,  In less there some kinda phantom of the opera character at his house playing games for him :)  i`m sure Billy recorded them games at home like he`s has done before in past and just pull yet another fast one. The good old boy system was still alive and well back then :)
Title: Re: Strange Scores
Post by: gstrain on April 15, 2016, 12:11:19 pm
I'd just like to quote the wise words of community elder Mark Alpiger from earlier in this thread when it was over at CAGDC about "Strange Scores" in the TG database:

Quote from: MDARULZ
BTW, the reason this comes up like a broken record, as you say, is that it's so silly that it happened in the first place.  Walter is a great / nice guy, and took the lead in scorekeeping, while no one else did...  Kudos !!!  But... with that leadership / position comes responsibility, and he took the 'nice' route, and we've paid the price (with false scores, bad decisions regarding stitched-together scores, etc.) ever since.  The point is not about Walter not being perfect...   The point is, the topic comes up over and over because of the problems generated by the oversight not being as nearly as thorough / accurate as it should have been...

It's good to see Mark Alpiger not afraid of calling Walter and TG out about the lack of oversight in the past that's resulted in a database of scores that is hard to trust and believe in.




Title: Re: Strange Scores
Post by: marky_d on April 15, 2016, 12:32:08 pm
TG pulled plausible Junior scores from the database in the 80s, so they weren't nice to everybody. :)

Title: Re: Strange Scores
Post by: tudose on April 15, 2016, 12:35:49 pm
interesting. im still curious as to why pigger locked the strange scores thread over at cagdc, going as far as saying this should be handled behind closed doors(via pm)...thankfully, open discussion is encouraged here, which is the MAIN reason why so many have migrated from cagdc to dkf permanently
Title: Re: Strange Scores
Post by: gstrain on April 26, 2016, 08:20:15 pm
Quote from: marky_d on April 15, 2016, 12:32:08 pm
TG pulled plausible Junior scores from the database in the 80s, so they weren't nice to everybody. :)
It's interesting to see some of the other "early" top 5 TG scores from this thread which documented scores from an early TG printout of the TG database: http://www.classicarcadegaming.com/forums/index.php/topic,5026.0.html (http://www.classicarcadegaming.com/forums/index.php/topic,5026.0.html)

Curious how some scores on some games were pulled from the database in the 80's on certain games.

As I mentioned on that thread I found the Gorf scores interesting.  From the printout:

1) 2,220,000 - Jason Smith – 6 ships – 2/13/83
2) 723,300 - Allen Menard - ? ships - 1/5/83
3) 707,230 - Victor Ng - 6 ships - 4/15/83
4) 704,590 - John Chandler - 6 ships - 12/31/82
5) 663,990 - Todd Rogers - 6 ships - 11/24/82

On the current TG site scoreboard the 1st through 4th place scores have completely disappeared and Todd Rogers score became the Golden Era record with details modified to be a 653,990 3-ship score, but with the same 11/24/82 date listed for his old 6-ship score.


Title: Re: Strange Scores
Post by: Barra on April 26, 2016, 08:51:34 pm
(http://i63.tinypic.com/1z149zp.jpg)
Title: Re: Strange Scores
Post by: tudose on April 26, 2016, 10:13:48 pm
goodness gracious :)