Donkey Kong Forum
General Donkey Kong Discussion => Donkey Kong Milestone Achievements => Topic started by: RTM on May 24, 2020, 12:51:52 am
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https://web.archive.org/web/20020408172037/https://www.twingalaxies.com/cgi-perl/dayrep_Feb_2002.pl
Hello fellow gamers:
This was brought to my attention this evening out of the blue by a gamer who spotted this while doing research via the Wayback Machine.
There is a blurb here (link above), written by Walter Day in Feb/02, having to do with Donkey Kong...
-> It mentions a new score by Steve Wiebe of 884K...a score I never verified, never received a tape for nor even knew about
-> It mentions Bill had a new score of 950K which he would be submitting on tape of 950K...a score which I also never received a tape for nor even knew about
-> Neither of these two scores was ever entered into the TG database back then
-> Other than this blurb neither score is ever mentioned by Walter again...
https://www.twingalaxies.com/archive/index.php/t-118669.html
Note that in the link immediately above, written by Walter much later, it mentions that as of 2004 Steve's 947K score was the top score...the one that I DID verify, and it mentions both Tim's and Bill's scores...but it lists Bill only at 933K which is a different performance
My recollection of dealing with Steve for the first time is when he contacted me at my office immediately prior to the DK WR of 947K...he said he set a new WR but was playing at the wrong settings as I realized from the discussion (he had extra lives at start set to them max) so he said he would try again at 3+1 which he did. Steve did NOT mention anything about previous dealings with TG or Walter, and when I contacted Walter/Billy to let them know after the initial call that a gamer broke Bills' score (notice I said Bill as I knew nothing of Tim at the time), neither Walter nor Bill said a single word about any conversation with Steve from as far back as 18 months earlier. And in that entire 18 months there was no mention of Steve Wiebe with respect to DK on the TG forum or even communication with my few fellow referees at the time.
So, my question...just what the heck happened in truth back in early 2002 when Walter posted what he did...with NO major fanfare, no scores entered into the TG database, and never a single follow-up about that 950K performance.?
Stinks to the high heavens...makes you wonder why such high-profile news, not just one but two new DK WR announcements, were given such little fanfare or even follow up by Walter. I was appointed TG's chief referee on 7/01/01 and this news was never shared with me when he wrote it in early 2002, nor was it mentioned once Steve submitted 947K 18 months later, and that includes the parts related to both Steve and Bill. How very strange indeed.
Robert
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@RTM,
My recollection is very vague from it being something like 18 years now, but I remember Walter sending me a box of tapes to make video excerpts from for movie clips to be shown on the TG web site for promotional purposes. In that box was Steve's 885K (or whatever the exact score was). I remember watching it and then contacting Walter, who then went into a weird panic about how I should never have gotten that tape. He had me immediately ship it back out after I made some video clips of it for the web site, and I don't recall if he had me send it back to him or to someone else. Apparently that is the 'lost' Steve tape I'm guessing? But yeah I watched it and made a few highlight clips as that was a duty Walter was having me to do for several video tapes. Those clips are long gone as they were on a PC some 3 or 4 generations ago, and I've had hard drive failures since then where I lost everything I had. TG should have had their own copy of the clips, since they were uploaded to the web site, but it would have been up to the site owner to make backups, which likely didn't happen.
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The link to the old TG video archive that FirebrandX set up is found here:
https://www.twingalaxies.com/firebrandx/video/
Unfortunately, the Wayback Machine did not crawl the video .zip files. I'm not sure if Jace has access to an older iteration of the TG website - my understanding is that the site was basically "rebuilt" when it was purchased by Adler. It's possible that somewhere, a TG member downloaded these clips back when the old site was live and kept them on a forgotten PC. Not sure how you'd put the call out to see if the crew that visited the site circa 2002-2003 might still have them, maybe worth a TG wall post to start things off...
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steve's "884k" score in that link (actually 885,900) was indeed mentioned again in a thread (though not be walter) you were part of robert so you did know about it at the time you just apparently later forgot. if this thread is accurate then it was entered in the scoreboard.
https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/109558-Anyone-get-a-Million-pts.on-Donkey-Kong-&-questions?p=557734#post557734
the same link firebrandx references videos that sadly can no longer be referenced.
i'm also not understanding the issue. I know part of the informal case against billy is that he'd have tapes that beat steve but pull the tape is steves record got pulled implying he'd only cheat as a last resort and pull his cheated score if he didnt need it. is the implication here simliar? that bilys score was fake but once steves score was pulled so was billys? if thats not the implication i'm not understanding what the problem is.
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The main catalyst was to confirm via TG sources that Wiebe submitted a 885k score in 2002 (he mentioned this fact in an interview but it was not widely known, possibly lost in the coverage of the 947k submission). So first and foremost its historical interest. I don't think anyone recalled that Day basically staked out that Mitchell had surpassed 885k with a pending tape submission of 950k, more or less giving Mitchell's unofficial claim the limelight. That's also for historical interest, not directly related to the larger dispute review per se.
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understood, but the later 'stinking to high heaven" remark i took as some sort of implication this is indicative of an issue that i couldnt understand other than the one speculative possibility i mentioned.
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In re reading RTMs post and FirebrandX, there certainly was some strangeness going on but then again FirebrandX did put up clips of Wiebe's score. I did find mention of Mitchell's forthcoming 950k video tape submission in Wiebe's announcement a bit offside in taking some of Wiebe's thunder. The method of submission also stood out given recent events.
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The main catalyst was to confirm via TG sources that Wiebe submitted a 885k score in 2002 (he mentioned this fact in an interview but it was not widely known, possibly lost in the coverage of the 947k submission). So first and foremost its historical interest. I don't think anyone recalled that Day basically staked out that Mitchell had surpassed 885k with a pending tape submission of 950k, more or less giving Mitchell's unofficial claim the limelight. That's also for historical interest, not directly related to the larger dispute review per se.
RTM REPLY - it was suggested earlier that perhaps I "forgot" about the earlier Wiebe score.
As I stated earlier within this thread, and which I have told Jace Hall, I was completely unaware of the existence of the earlier 885K submission by Wiebe, same for Walter's posts as to that OR the 950K by Billy on tape, neither of which was in the TG database.
Take a look at the link below...
https://www.twingalaxies.com/archive/index.php/t-118321.html
The key quote here...
Billy Mitchell scored 874,300 points at Twin Galaxies on November 7, 1982. His record stood until August 17, 2000 when Tim Sczerby scored 879,200 points in Auburn, NY. When Tim scored this new record, his achievement was published on the Twin Galaxies website and the story was sent out all over the Internet. Also, Walter Day, Chief Scorekeeper at Twin Galaxies personally phoned Tim and congratulated him on his great accomplishment. A few days later, Billy himself phoned Tim and congratulated him. These facts are supported by Tim Sczerby himself in an interview published here:
At no time did Billy Mitchell, in a fit of desperation, attempt to wrest back his world record. In fact, he hardly cared about the loss and went about his normal life as a father of three children and a hot sauce manufacturer. His actions were simply to congratulate Tim Sczerby and say goodbye to his 16-year record on Donkey Kong.
Then, Steve Wiebe, who appeared on the arcade gaming scene for the first time, took the Donkey Kong, Jr. World Record from Billy Mitchell in July, 2002. Again Billy Mitchell took no action to try and regain his record. He simply let it go. And he congratulated Steve for fine work.
And, the staff of Twin Galaxies welcomed Steve with open arms, crowning him the new world champion. It should be noted that Steve enjoyed a tremendous amount of publicity from this accomplishment, appearing in many news stories. These news stories did not happen by accident; they were engineered by Walter Day and the Twin Galaxies staff who spent much time promoting Steve Wiebe as the new star of Donkey Kong, Jr. The resulting wave of publicity for Steve Wiebe brought a near-record number of visitors to the Twin Galaxies website making the TG website server crash again and again from the onslaught of attention that Twin Galaxies brought to Steve Wiebe.
Next, Steve Wiebe broke Tim Sczerby's Donkey Kong World Record on about June 30, 2003, scoring 947,200 points. Again, Twin Galaxies embraced Steve's accomplishment with open arms, publicizing his achievement with great success, getting Steve in many news stories, and, once again, making the Twin Galaxies website server crash from the overload of visitors. And, once again, Billy Mitchell did nothing to take back the DK record. And, to show the extreme degree of respect extended to Steve Wiebe by Twin Galaxies, referee Robert Mruczek spent the time to publish this detailed report on Steve's successful accomplishment:
That was written by Walter and makes NO mention of the 885K score by Steve or the 950K by Billy.
Next up...
https://www.twingalaxies.com/archive/index.php/t-118669.html
The Donkey Kong Standings looked like this in July, 2003:
1. 947,200 Steve J Wiebe 07/06/2003
2. 933,900 Billy L Mitchell 05/27/2004
3. 879,200 Timothy Sczerby 8/17/00
The Donkey Kong Standings looked like this on the day Funspot 2005 started:
1. 947,200 Steve J Wiebe 07/06/2003
2. 933,900 Billy L Mitchell 05/27/2004
3. 879,200 Timothy Sczerby 8/17/00
The Donkey Kong Standings looked like this after Funspot 2005 until January 30, 2006:
1. 985,600 Steve J Wiebe 06/2/05
2. 933,900 Billy L Mitchell 05/27/2004
3. 879,200 Timothy Sczerby 8/17/00
Once more, no mention of the 885K score by Steve or the 950K by Billy.
In the original 947K article which I wrote back in 2003, which unfortunately I can no longer find the link to although I do have the original file long-since sent to Jace, it makes no mention of Wiebe "upping" his previous score as such did not exist yet. When Walter was advised as to the incoming 947K VHS tape, he made no mention that Wiebe had previously sent HIM a tape which he himself supposedly verified and entered into the TG database.
Someone is incorrect in stating that I "forgot"...you can't forget something that was never thre...OR if it was there and then mysteriously removed by Walter.
Further proof, from Paul Dean's site...
http://spyhunter007.com/steve_wiebe_donkey_kong_timeline.htm
Key quote - "Feb 2003 - Steve Wiebe decides to go for the Donkey Kong world record on DOnkey Kong with his Double Donkey Kong Board"
No mention of the earlier 885K score is made.
Next URL...
https://superbunker.com/resources/dkt/
Key point - nothing from 2001 thru June 2003 related to Wiebe
There is absolutely zero proof that I can find that shows the existence of 885K on the TG scoreboard/database save for the wall page blurb in early 2002 and a subsequent post a year later by Rick Carter. in Jan/03.
Finally, attached is an RTF format file which can be opened in WordPad...this is the original 947.2K article from July 2003 and it mentions nothing of an earlier DK score by Wiebe (aside from his DK Jr score which was a different title and performance). Neither is a purported 950K by Billy mentioned.
I have zero doubt that as of July 2003 there was no mention of a score by Wiebe of 885K, and I had no prior knowledge of Walter's earlier involvement with Wiebe. Neither Walter nor Billy mentioned anything of the earlier 885K score when I called them to inform of Wiebe's 947K score.
Here below is the original 947K article itself, also as an enclosure.
BREAKING NEWS - NEW WORLD RECORD ON DONKEY KONG (ARCADE)
As reported July 5th, 2003
Hello fellow gamers:
One of the most revered classic arcade records has fallen !! On June 30th, 2003, Steve Wiebe who hails from Redmond, Washington, has done it again. Last year he became the first player in Twin Galaxies history to pass the one million-point barrier on "Donkey Kong Junior". This year, Steve's focus was on none other than it's venerable predecessor, "Donkey Kong" itself. The new world record, as verified by Twin Galaxies, now stands at a lofty 947,200 points.
I had the pleasure of watching Steve's achievement as captured on videotape, and this was the first time ever that I had personally witnessed the "kill screen" in action. Most players have no idea whether "Donkey Kong" actually ends, but let me tell you, it does when you reach level 22 and start with a timer so low that it is absolutely impossible to make it up to the top of the screen, let alone the third girder up.
In total, there are 116 playable screens that you can complete before reaching the "kill screen"...level one has two (2) stages, level two has three (3) stages. level three has four (4) stages, level four has five (5) stages, and levels 6 thru 21 have six (6) stages each, and of these (not including the "kill screen"), over half are "barrel" stages. The 117th and final stage (level 22-1, a "barrel" stage) offers few opportunities for points...perhaps 400-500 at most, before the timer expires.
The name "Donkey Kong", when literally translated into colloquial English, roughly means stupid ape". Well, I beg to differ...this "stupid ape" is tough enough that only a small handful of players worldwide are documented in having beaten the game by reaching the "kill screen". Not so stupid after all, it seems !!
The game allows you three (3) lives to start and an extra life earned at the 10K mark, which Steve easily earned. Steve's achievement took nearly 2 hours of game play, and although he had lost his third life relatively early in the game, he kept things going for a remarkable period of time, reminding gamers everywhere "Never give up, never say die", classic advice from another "Donkey Kong" master, legendary gamer Bill Mitchell.
Owning the world record on a title such as "Donkey Kong" is quite an achievement, as the title has not changed hands much over the past few years. Only one other gamer in recorded Twin Galaxies history, Bill Mitchell, has simultaneously owned world records on both "Donkey Kong" and it's sequel, "Donkey Kong Junior", so Steve is part of a very elite group of gamers for sure.
Without further ado, here is the recap of Steve's performance, the finishing points at the end of each stage, followed by a few closing thoughts...
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THE PATH TO VICTORY
Stage 1-1 - 'Barrel Stage' - 8,400
Stage 1-2 - 'Rivet Stage' - 13,000
Stage 2-1 - 'Barrel Stage' - 21,000
Stage 2-2 - 'Elevator Stage' - 27,000
Stage 2-3 - 'Rivet Stage' - 33,900
Stage 3-1 - 'Barrel Stage' - 41,800
Stage 3-2 - 'Conveyor Belt Stage' - 49,400
Stage 3-3 - 'Elevator Stage' - 55,900
Stage 3-4 - 'Rivet Stage' - 63,000
Stage 4-1 - 'Barrel' - 73,800
Stage 4-2 - 'Conveyor' - 79,200
Stage 4-3 - 'Barrel' - 88,600
Stage 4-4 - 'Elevator' - 94,700
Stage 4-5 - 'Rivet' - 103,400
Beginning with Level 5, there are six (6) stages per level, three (3) of which are "Barrel Stages". For the benefit of fellow competitors, additional statistics follow at the end of this recap.
Stage 5-1 - 'Barrel' - 114500
Stage 5-2 - 'Conveyor' - 122800
Stage 5-3 - 'Barrel' - 132800
Stage 5-4 - 'Elevator' - 139800
Stage 5-5 - 'Barrel' - 148900
Stage 5-6 - 'Rivet' - 156800 Level 5 Cumulative Points - 53400
Stage 6-1 - 'Barrel' - 166400
Stage 6-2 - 'Conveyor' - 174600
Stage 6-3 - 'Barrel' - 185600
Stage 6-4 - 'Elevator' - 192400
Stage 6-5 - 'Barrel' - 202100
Stage 6-6 - 'Rivet' - 210500 Level 6 Cumulative Points - 53700
Stage 7-1 - 'Barrel' - 220900
Stage 7-2 - 'Conveyor' - 229300
Stage 7-3 - 'Barrel' - 238200
Stage 7-4 - 'Elevator' - 245300
Stage 7-5 - 'Barrel' - 255200
Stage 7-6 - 'Rivet' - 262000 Level 7 Cumulative Points - 51500
Stage 8-1 - 'Barrel' - 274500
Stage 8-2 - 'Conveyor' - 282800
Stage 8-3 - 'Barrel' - 292700
Stage 8-4 - 'Elevator' - 299600
Stage 8-5 - 'Barrel' - 310400
Stage 8-6 - 'Rivet' - 317700 Level 8 Cumulative Points - 55700
Stage 9-1 - 'Barrel' - 326400
Stage 9-2 - 'Conveyor' - 333800
Stage 9-3 - 'Barrel' - 343600
Stage 9-4 - 'Elevator' - 350400
Stage 9-5 - 'Barrel' - 360400
Stage 9-6 - 'Rivet' - 368500 Level 9 Cumulative Points - 50800
Stage 10-1 - 'Barrel' - 378400
Stage 10-2 - 'Conveyor' - 388300
Stage 10-3 - 'Barrel' - 398700
Stage 10-4 - 'Elevator' - 405500
Stage 10-5 - 'Barrel' - 416300
Stage 10-6 - 'Rivet' - 424400 Level 10 Cumulative Points - 55900
Stage 11-1 - 'Barrel' - 434800
Stage 11-2 - 'Conveyor' - 443100
Stage 11-3 - 'Barrel' - 451600
Stage 11-4 - 'Elevator' - 457600
Stage 11-5 - 'Barrel' - 467800
Stage 11-6 - 'Rivet' - 472100 Level 11 Cumulative Points - 47700
Stage 12-1 - 'Barrel' - 482100
Stage 12-2 - 'Conveyor' - 490300
Stage 12-3 - 'Barrel' - 500600
Stage 12-4 - 'Elevator' - 506800
Stage 12-5 - 'Barrel' - 516500
Stage 12-6 - 'Rivet' - 520700 Level 12 Cumulative Points - 48600
Stage 13-1 - 'Barrel' - 531700
Stage 13-2 - 'Conveyor' - 539800
Stage 13-3 - 'Barrel' - 548800
Stage 13-4 - 'Elevator' - 555100
Stage 13-5 - 'Barrel' - 564300
Stage 13-6 - 'Rivet' - 571100 Level 13 Cumulative Points - 50400
Stage 14-1 - 'Barrel' - 579700
Stage 14-2 - 'Conveyor' - 587200
Stage 14-3 - 'Barrel' - 595800
Stage 14-4 - 'Elevator' - 602000
Stage 14-5 - 'Barrel' - 611100
Stage 14-6 - 'Rivet' - 618900 Level 14 Cumulative Points - 47800
Stage 15-1 - 'Barrel' - 627700
Stage 15-2 - 'Conveyor' - 636100
Stage 15-3 - 'Barrel' - 644700
Stage 15-4 - 'Elevator' - 649700
Stage 15-5 - 'Barrel' - 658200
Stage 15-6 - 'Rivet' - 666600 Level 15 Cumulative Points - 47700
Stage 16-1 - 'Barrel' - 675300
Stage 16-2 - 'Conveyor' - 681600
Stage 16-3 - 'Barrel' - 690400
Stage 16-4 - 'Elevator' - 696600
Stage 16-5 - 'Barrel' - 704400
Stage 16-6 - 'Rivet' - 712400 Level 16 Cumulative Points - 45800
Stage 17-1 - 'Barrel' - 720800
Stage 17-2 - 'Conveyor' - 727400
Stage 17-3 - 'Barrel' - 736100
Stage 17-4 - 'Elevator' - 742400
Stage 17-5 - 'Barrel' - 751400
Stage 17-6 - 'Rivet' - 757800 Level 17 Cumulative Points - 45400
Stage 18-1 - 'Barrel' - 766000
Stage 18-2 - 'Conveyor' - 774400
Stage 18-3 - 'Barrel' - 782700
Stage 18-4 - 'Elevator' - 788400
Stage 18-5 - 'Barrel' - 797300
Stage 18-6 - 'Rivet' - 804800 Level 18 Cumulative Points - 47000
Stage 19-1 - 'Barrel' - 813100
Stage 19-2 - 'Conveyor' - 821500
Stage 19-3 - 'Barrel' - 829700
Stage 19-4 - 'Elevator' - 836600
Stage 19-5 - 'Barrel' - 844900
Stage 19-6 - 'Rivet' - 853800 Level 19 Cumulative Points - 49000
Stage 20-1 - 'Barrel' - 862800
Stage 20-2 - 'Conveyor' - 870600
Stage 20-3 - 'Barrel' - 879400
Stage 20-4 - 'Elevator' - 885400
Stage 20-5 - 'Barrel' - 893300
Stage 20-6 - 'Rivet' - 901000 Level 20 Cumulative Points - 47200
Stage 21-1 - 'Barrel' - 909400
Stage 21-2 - 'Conveyor' - 913100
Stage 21-3 - 'Barrel' - 923500
Stage 21-4 - 'Elevator' - 928800
Stage 21-5 - 'Barrel' - 938700
Stage 21-6 - 'Rivet' - 946800 Level 21 Cumulative Points - 45800
The "kill screen" itself yielded, as expected, only 400 more points, for a finishing score of 947,200. Steve let out a hearty "All Right !!" after the final life was lost and the new world record was now a reality. He entered his initials into the game screen, and that was the last step...he was now the best in the world at "Donkey Kong" !!
He next took the time to pan the video camera over the unit to show that an actual arcade upright was being used, and zoomed in for a close-up on the score. "There you have it...947..." he said, trailing off a bit, as there was no reason to say "947 thousand"...we all know what he meant. "Okay, that's it. I'll try for a million...I know I can do it, but..." and his thoughts trail off, as either the fact that he set a new world record was still being absorbed, or the premise of doing it again AND scoring an additional 53K was too daunting to consider right now. He continues with "...anyway, I don't know if Billy (Mitchell) already has a score in the 950K range, but hopefully I can still get better. Well, I'll keep playing. See ya, guys !!" and he cuts off the taping.
And there were many moments of excitement that happened during Steve's performance. My apologies that I am listing them afterwards, but in order to obtain the extra statistics using EXCEL that I will present you with later, it was not possible for me to have the text alongside the points-per-level. So here goes...
TRIALS AND TRIBULATIONS
(8-1) Steve's first loss of a man occurred on stage (8-1) at 263,900 points when he was caught by a fireball at the lower right corner while using the hammer. The timer expired for the hammer and the fireball caught him.
(8-6) He had major problems this stage with the fireballs and became trapped near the top left, losing his second life at 331,500 points...still a great game in progress and with one life in reserve.
(10-2) was incredibly tough...all but one of the fireballs chased Steve to the lowest level and he tried valiantly to escape. With a few seconds left, and opening presented itself (barely) and he managed to get to the top left ladder by 100 on the timer, but at that precise instant the ladder reversed directions, and Steve lost his 3rd life while on the ladder at 380,100 points...a long way from the kill screen...over 70 screens, in fact. Nonetheless, Steve continued against all odds.
(11-5) Steve passed the 60-minute mark with 458,000 points even.
(11-6) One of the many "Do-or-Die" moments Steve faced this game?he was forced to jump over a moving fireball to get the top hammer, and as all "Donkey Kong" players know, it is not a maneuver with a 100% success rate. Taking the moment in stride, Steve pressed on.
(13-1) Steve slightly switches strategies on this stage, taking a few less risks and in the process sacrificing potential points, perhaps because he's on his last life.
(13-2) For the first time this game, Steve makes use of the central hammer located on the lower conveyor belt due to another "Do-or-Die" situation, this time faced with a hoard of relentless fireballs hot on his tail (pun intended).
(14-6) Use of the topmost hammer was denied to Steve due to a very protective fireball hovering directly beneath it almost the entire last half of the stage. So be it?that was one less fireball to avoid, so he ignored the potential points and went for a clean stage finish.
(15-3) "Donkey Kong" is getting quite aggressive now?Steve is almost nailed, twice, by wildly thrown barrels near the top left section, a very dangerous section as "Donkey Kong" chucks one barrel at an angle, and Steve barely managed to avoid it, and almost immediately drops another straight down. Undaunted, Steve continued to finish this wave.
(15-4) Steve must have been feeling the pressure now as he aborted two attempts to climb the top ladder. As all expert "Donkey Kong" players know, once you commit to climbing up the ladder at these levels in the game, you either make it, or you die trying. Fortunately, the third time was a charm and Steve went for it...and made it.
(16-2) Faced with almost all the fireballs on the the top level, Steve's first choice of reaching the top via the upper right ladder was looking less and less possible as the timer kept counting down, so he made a decision to abort and try the left side with the time remaining. He ended up reaching the top with the timer at "300", which was cutting it close.
(17-6) This was perhaps Steve's toughest challenge this game, in my opinion, and also the one where a huge bit of luck definitely came into play. The fireballs were relentlessly chasing him, and blocking off all staircases and the hammers. In total, Steve jumped over two (2) fireballs this stage and not only that, but he was almost singed by a fireball when finally getting the upper level hammer. I have to imagine that Steve breathed a sigh of relief when this stage was completed !!
(18-2) Compared to the previous level's "Conveyor Belt" stage, this one was a relative cakewalk. Steve cruised to completion with ease.
(19-2) Another virtual cakewalk unlike (17-2). Steve was getting close to a "kill screen" but still had over a dozen stages to go, so he resumed concentration and went onto the next "Barrel Stage". After all, anything can still happen !!
(20-2) Another "Do-or-Die" moment of desperation as Steve is forced to get the hammer on the lower level conveyor belt and take out the nearby fireballs in hot pursuit. But he still had a lot more opposition to deal with once he reached the mid-right ledge. He was trapped by one fireball to the left, dancing on the central ledge, and two more were directly above him on the upper level conveyor belt on the right side. I can imagine how Steve must have felt now, with his previous high score approx 929K, and so close to a new personal best. He waited it out, and the two fireballs, one after another, took the central ladder down, and that's when Steve made his move since the timer was running out. He ended up jumping over a mine car to get to the upper right ladder, and then it was straight to the top without further opposition. Definitely not an easy level.
(20-6) Steve passes the 900K mark, and the level, at 1:47, but not without sweating it out a bit more. The upper level hammer was zealously guarded by two fireballs, but patience and care prevailed, and the fireballs were eventually dispatched, and the level completed. Just six (6) more levels to finish and then the "kill screen" would come.
(21-2) In my opinion, the second toughest time Steve had this game, and so close to the conclusion !! Forced by a fireball chasing him closely, he had to jump a mine car on the lower level conveyor belt as part of his means to escape. Although the rest of this stage was relatively easy in comparison, "Donkey Kong" experts well know the dangers of jumping carts on the lower level. This, fellow gamers, was the last of the "Do-or-Die" moments for Steve this game, as it turned out...the rest was all up to skill and patience.
(21-3) Perhaps because his own personal best was 929,700 and the kill screen was approaching was why Steve got a little aggressive here and scored 10,400 this round, finishing that much closer to his personal best. And with three whole stages to go before the "kill screen", every point would count that much more.
(21-4) Steve did not fool around this stage?he knew that he would get in the vicinity of 5,000 points and his high was just a few points beyond that, so the last of the "Elevator Stages" was accomplished smoothly, without incident. Onward to a new personal best if all went well.
(21-5) Starting the stage with less than a thousand points from his previous personal best, and not too far off from a new world record, Steve played this level a bit aggressively, all things considered, scoring close to 10,000 points and setting a new personal best in the process !!
(21-6) The LAST STAGE before the "kill screen" was here, and in general, "Rivet Stages" were never to be taken lightly. Steve knows, however, that at most the "kill screen" will allow for a few hundred points at best, so he makes what points he can and then escapes for a moderate bonus, and well over 946K for a new world record. And although there is still, technically, one screen that remains to be completed, Steve knows that the hard part is over, and all that matters is that he has beaten the game, set a new personal best, AND set a new world record, all at the same time.
Incredibly, Steve carried his last man for 567,100 points !!
And now for the extra section with statistics that I had promised earlier...
STATISTICS SECTION
Based on the assumption that the same point potential exists for each of levels 5 thru 21, as each has the same 6 stages, this data relates to Steve's performance only during this phase of the game.
Complete Level Data
-> The minimum achieved for a completed level during this phase of the game was 45,400 points and set through Level 17
-> The maximum was 53,700 points adjusting for loss of life, which skews the statistics, and was achieved for Level 6
-> Interestingly, Steve achieved 50K or more for each completed Level 6 through 10, and for the remaining 11 Levels, only once did he break 50K for the completed level, that one being Level 13
Barrel Stage Date
-> The minimum achieved for a completed "Barrel Stage" was 7,800 points, and occurred in Level 16-5
-> The maximum achieved was 11,100 points adjusting for loss of life, and occurred in Level 5-1
-> Overall, Steve's average per "Barrel Stage" was approx 9,300 points, adjusted for loss of life
Conveyor Belt Stage Date
-> The minimum achieved for a completed "Conveyor Belt Stage" was 3,700 points, and occurred in Level 21-2
-> The maximum achieved was 8,400 points adjusting for loss of life, and occurred twice, in Levels 18-2 & 19-2
-> Overall, Steve's average per "Conveyor Belt Stage" was approx 7,700 points, adjusted for loss of life
Elevator Stage Date
-> The minimum achieved for a completed "Elevator Stage" was 5,000 points, and occurred in Level 15-4
-> The maximum achieved was 7,100 points and was achieved without loss of life in Level 7-4
-> Overall, Steve's average per "Elevator Stage" was approx 9,300 points, adjusted for loss of life
Rivet Stage Date
-> The minimum achieved for a completed "Rivet Stage" was 4,200 points, and occurred in Level 12-6. In fact, Steve scored less than 6K only twice from stages 5 and on.
-> The maximum achieved was 8,900 points and was achieved without loss of life in Level 19-6
-> Overall, Steve's average per "Rivet Stage" was approx 8,900 points, adjusted for loss of life
Theoretical Maximum
Assuming the same point potential was possible for each completed level, and each stage completed within, I was curious just how high would be possible on "Donkey Kong" using Steve's statistics as a guideline, and the starting point of 103,400 points after completing stage 4-5, and adding a token 400 points for the "kill screen". Here I treat every Level 5 thru 21 identically in both difficulty and potential point yield...
Barrel Stages - I took the maximum points without loss of life (11,100) and multiplied by 51 (17 Levels at 3 per Level) and came up with 566,100 points
Conveyor Stages - Taking the maximum without loss of life (8,400) and multiplying by 17 (1 per Level), that comes to 142,800 points
Elevator Stages - Taking the maximum without loss of life (7,100) and multiplying by 17 (1 per Level), that comes to 120,700 points
Rivet Stages - Taking the maximum without loss of life (8,900) and multiplying by 17 (1 per Level), that comes to 151,300 points
Factoring the above data in, it is theoretically possible to achieve 1084,700 points...at the very least over a million points.
I was considering the fact that, on the average, the Level totals for 5 through 10 averaged 50K while only once from stages 11-21 did Steve reach the 50K mark. However, for stages 11 through 21...
-> The maximum "Barrel" score was 11,000 (only 100 less than his Level 5 though 10 maximum)
-> The maximum "Conveyor Belt" score was identical at 8,400
-> The maximum "Elevator" score was 6,900 (only 200 less than his Level 5 though 10 maximum)
-> The maximum "Rivet" score was 8,900 (500 points higher than his Level 5 through 10 maximum !!)
Since each "Barrel Stage" occurs three (3) times, that 100 point loss translates to a 300 point loss per Level, yet when added to the 200 point loss during the "Elevator" stage", this is neatly offset by the 500 point gain during the "Rivet" stage.
So, just how accurate is my theoretical assessment ? Well, all it guarantees is that at least a million is possible, but doing so requires a LOT to go right, and judging by the many harrowing escapes that Steve faced this game, saying it's theoretically possible on paper and actually doing it is a whole different matter. Suffice it to say, reaching a million is now on Steve's mind.
********************************************
FINAL THOUGHTS
Incredible. That's the only word that comes into my mind. As a gamer, myself, knowing how difficult this game can be, to actually see someone "beat the game" is absolutely incredible. Yes, it's been done before, but like a hole in one when you're watching golf, it doesn't matter that people have done it before...it's always special each and every time.
As chief referee for the Twin Galaxies Intergalactic Scoreboard, I am very pleased to know that titles that are over 20 years old still have a very loyal following, and that gamers to this day are still trying their very best for personal records, and if they are good enough, world records. And unlike the results of an auction of a well known rare collectible, like a scarce baseball card or famous painting which almost always reach higher and higher auction prices realized year after year, video game world records, much like records in athleticism, become harder and harder to beat with each and every time a new record is set. Take the world record for the fastest 100M dash, or the fastest mile, or the long jump...these records are most definitely not broken year after year, but when they are, it is truly a momentous event.
Congratulations to Steve Wiebe on behalf of the entire staff of the Twin Galaxies Intergalactic Scorereboard on a job well done !!
Robert T Mruczek
Twin Galaxies - Editor and Chief referee
Star Wars classic arcade champion
rmruczek@doremus.com (work E-MAIL)
*******************************************
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One more thing I noticed...
And, the staff of Twin Galaxies welcomed Steve with open arms, crowning him the new world champion. It should be noted that Steve enjoyed a tremendous amount of publicity from this accomplishment, appearing in many news stories. These news stories did not happen by accident; they were engineered by Walter Day and the Twin Galaxies staff who spent much time promoting Steve Wiebe as the new star of Donkey Kong, Jr. The resulting wave of publicity for Steve Wiebe brought a near-record number of visitors to the Twin Galaxies website making the TG website server crash again and again from the onslaught of attention that Twin Galaxies brought to Steve Wiebe.
If you read the highlighted passage as written by Walter which I pulled from my immediately prior post, it mentions TG promoting Wiebe as the star of DK Jr and NOT of DK as well, as technically he would have been dual-champion at this point. One would believe that Walter at par minimum would have promoted the heck out of that as there had been no dual-champion since the 1980's when Billy pulled that feat off, and continuing thru at least when Szerby turned in a higher score which also mysteriously received zero promotion from Walter when it happened.
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https://www.smh.com.au/technology/donkey-kong-enthusiast-earns-record-setting-score-20030808-gdh8cn.html
In this article written back in July 2003, it mentioned how Steve's effort of 947K was "a month in the making"...almost a year and a half after that alleged 885K score.
It also makes zero mention of him being the earlier DK champion which is highly indicative that he was never formally the DK champion on the TG site back in 2002 with his 885K score.
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This was hard to find, a July 2003 news article regarding Steve's new world record score...
https://www.smh.com.au/technology/donkey-kong-enthusiast-earns-record-setting-score-20030808-gdh8cn.html
No mention of an earlier WR score was included. I am confident that whatever blurb Walter posted at that moment in Feb/02 was, at some point, retracted quickly as no one seems to have any recollection of it outside of the Jan/03 response by Rick Carter.
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oh boy i'm not gonna get in a big back and forth but i will try to clarify in case an honest confusion
correct, one cannot forget something which was never true, so perhaps first i should back up to the disagreement there
steve's score was entered. clearly if it wasnt, you could not forgot what did not happen, but if it was entered, and you know at the time it was entered, and you dont know that now it would mean forgot. my goodnes its never polite to say someone's wrong, but saying you forgot i think is a lot more polite way to adress it. i didnt say you lied. i gave you the benefit of the doubt that your erroneous information was due to an honest mistake
now if youd like to discuss whether or not it was a mistake, whether or not steve's score was in fact entered, please check the link i earlier provided you may find it jogs your memory
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RTM, I wanted to say at the outset that I may be misinterpreting your arguments, so I wanted to take a moment to clarify my understanding by walking through some of the points your raise.
It strikes me as incongruous to argue that "there is absolutely zero proof...that shows the existence of 885k on the TG scoreboard/database" and then cite the very evidence that was uncovered to confirm the score's existence - Walter's announcement and Rick's post, which was based on his review of the scoreboard in January 2003.
https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/109558-Anyone-get-a-Million-pts.on-Donkey-Kong-&-questions?p=557734#post557734
To highlight the latter point, JJT begins that thread by asking if Mitchell achieved a million point DK game. In response, Rick writes, "Not sure if Billy ever did that or not. If he did it wasn't official cuz viewing the TG records Steve Wiebe has the record at 885,900. I really thought Billy had scored in the 920k range though...but perhaps wasn't verifiable."
Further proof of the score's existence can be found in your thread announcing Steve's 947k achievement.
https://web.archive.org/web/20031203042530/http://www.twingalaxies.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1253
In post #8, mandm785@juno writes "dumb question, but did Steve just do this? [the 947k score] The reason I ask is I looked at the score details, on the online scoreboard, and it says it was submitted on March 2, 02. Was this performance of over a year ago? Just made me curious when I saw this."
You remark in post #12 that due to a system bug with the original program, the dates can be a little screwy. However in actual fact this was the date that Steve's 885k score was confirmed in the database. If you google "Steve Wiebe" "885,900" you'll get a hit where there is a discussion about updating MAME related files. One individual uses the history.dat file associated with a DK distro - the information is clearly dated as it cites Steve Wiebe as the DK record holder with a score of 885,900 achieved on March 2, 2002.
You included a post from Walter ("Billy Mitchell scored 874,300 points at Twin Galaxies on November 7, 1982...") and indicate it makes no mention of Steve's 885k score as potential proof that the 885k score either didn't exist as an official or wasn't entered. The context of Walter's discussion concerns how Mitchell was portrayed in the King of Kong. Walter's argument is that - contrary to the opinion of the movie-going public, I guess - Mitchell was not obsessing over retaining the top DK score, and a pro-Billy TG administration was not running interference on his behalf. With this in mind, Walter's announcement of Steve's 885k score, which is accompanied by an announcement of Mitchell's forthcoming video tape submission of a higher score, would clearly undermine the core of his argument, and would provide a plausible rationale for its exclusion from his historical account.
I do think that the lack of fanfare or promotion around Wiebe's 885k score is noteworthy, but my conclusion is that the lack of promotion wasn't rooted in the score's absence from the leaderboard.
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I am starting to get the feeling that King of Kong was not a 100% accurate documentary. :(
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"Is the movie accurate?" Sanders asked. "I would say yes. Is the movie fair? I would say no." He thinks Mitchell should ride the "King of Kong" infamy to some sort of success.
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Great finds, Coleco!
For posterity, when you Google "Steve Wiebe" "885,900" as Coleco suggested, you get three iterations of the same block of text, two from active links and one still in Google cache from another site:
https://github.com/libretro/mame2003-plus-libretro/issues/759
https://www.bountysource.com/issues/83915339-updating-catver-ini-and-other-metadata
https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:kas6qjwG0CMJ:https://www.gitmemory.com/Wilstorm+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
It looks to be some sort of MAME metadata or something? It's a long block of text pertaining to arcade DK. Buried in the larger text is a "Trivia" section as follows:
- TRIVIA -
Donkey Kong was to be Nintendo's first big breakthrough into the western - and particularly American - arcade scene. Before Donkey Kong, Nintendo was having difficulty establishing itself in these markets. After the game's massive success Nintendo quickly established their headquarters of Nintendo of America to ensure that the game was being distributed properly. After winning a couple of lawsuits, Nintendo licensed out Donkey Kong to other manufacturers who created the table top games.
Donkey Kong introduced a number of wholly original gameplay ideas to the platform genre. It was the first ever game to feature multiple playfields, for example. It was also the first game that allowed players to jump over objects. Its creation came about due to the commercial failure of another game called "Radarscope". A consequence of which was an excess of redundant arcade cabinets. In an attempt to limit their losses, Nintendo commissioned Donkey Kong and history was made.
The Jumpman character was renamed Mario after Mario Segali, the landlord of Nintendo of America's first warehouse location in Seattle (thought it was debated whether this occurred before or well after the game was released). Accounts differ as to how Nintendo of America felt about the game before its release. Many sources claim that they all felt sure it would be an absolute disaster while others say they were more optimistic. Although Mario is a plumber in later games, his career in Donkey Kong is that of a carpenter. Mario's appearance (and consequently his career) was dictated by the primitive graphics hardware of the time - the only way to have his arms appear 'seperate' to his torso was to have them as a different colour - hence he wears 'dungarees'. The moustache is present merely to indicate where Mario's mouth is, again due to the low graphics resolution imposed by hardware limitations. Mario wears a hat so his head is distinguishable from the game's black backgrounds.
The game was originally going to be called 'Monkey Kong' but, as with "Continental Circus", a mistake during the translation process from Japanese to English resulted in the now legendary name. The game's creator, the equally-legendary Shigiru Miyamoto denies this story to this day - claiming that the naming is deliberate as he wanted an animal name that would capture the 'stubborn' nature of the Kong character (as in 'stubborn as a mule'). Few within the industry believe this explanation, however.
About 60,000 units were sold in the U.S. Oddly, despite it being one of the ten best selling games of the golden age of video games, it never reached #1 on Replay's popularity charts. Instead, it was stuck at #2 behind mega hits "Pac-Man" and "Ms. Pac-Man" - the two best selling games ever.
Steve Wiebe holds the official record for this game with 885,900 points on March 2, 2002.
Donkey Kong inspired a catchy hit song by Buckner and Garcia called 'Do The Donkey Kong' released on the 'Pac-Man Fever' album.
A Donkey Kong unit appears in the 1983 movie 'WarGames', in the 1984 movie 'Gremlins' and in the 1985 movie 'The Heavenly Kid'.
A Donkey Kong machine was shown at the 2003 classic arcade games show 'California Extreme' in San Jose, California.
MB (Milton Bradley) released a board game based on this video game (same name) in 1982. Save the girl and avoid the barrels and fireballs as in the video game. The gameboard is laid out like the video game's ramp stage. 'Can You Battle Donkey Kong And Save the Fair Maiden?'.
I appreciate FBX coming here to clarify about the Wiebe tape, although truthfully, he's already talked about it a few times, and I guess it never clicked for us that this was a previously unmentioned Wiebe tape (not the 2003 one that got publicized). FBX mentioned it in the DK dispute on page 019 (below the MAME evidence) (https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/176004-Dispute-Jeremy-Young-Arcade-Donkey-Kong-Points-Hammer-Allowed-Player-Billy-L-Mitchell-Score-1-062-800/page019) and again on page 356. (https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/176004-Dispute-Jeremy-Young-Arcade-Donkey-Kong-Points-Hammer-Allowed-Player-Billy-L-Mitchell-Score-1-062-800/page356) FBX even names the score in his page 019 comment:
It did exist, and I actually owned the tape for a short while and watched it myself. My memory is a bit hazy as this was 15 years ago, but I remember getting the tape in a box of various tapes to pull video clips from and make online video snips from as per Walter's request. I remember watching the 885k and being very impressed, and I specifically read the name on the tape and was surprised to not see Billy's name on it, but instead Steve Wiebe's! I asked Walter about it, and he seem both concerned and shocked that such a tape fell into my hands. I got the sense that it was 'mis-filed' and purely by accident. I was asked to send it back (I forget whether to him or another referee). What happened to the tape after that I honestly don't know.
I'm willing to swear in court that it existed and I had the tape in my possession (for a time anyway). In fact, I've often told this story that I was technically the first referee to verify a Steve Wiebe DK tape, albeit accidentally. So rest assured, Steve is telling the truth about that.
And with all the other corroboration people have found, there's no doubting this was definitely a real score active on the scoreboard, though there's still a few mysterious loose ends to the story. Biggest among them is, how on earth did this score go unnoticed publicly all this time?
Here's scans I took of Seattle Times coverage in 2003 of Wiebe's score. It appears all the other coverage around the country and the world (including what RTM cites above) originates from this Seattle Times story. Most are direct copies, though CNN and a couple other outlets trimmed it way down.
(https://i.imgur.com/sOtDqGL.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/2Apbqru.png)
Very conspicuously no mention of the fact that Wiebe was already the record-holder. Of course, Seattle Times was just getting all their info from TG (i.e. Walter and Billy). If I wanted to be charitable, I could imagine Walter Day just having a bad memory and forgetting that Sczerby's score was already broken (perhaps while someone else operated the scoreboard on the website). It's possible he remembered that Wiebe did have some big score a year ago, but thought it was the 1mil on DK Jr. But it also would not be unlike him to knowingly take the opportunity for self-promotion available truth-be-damned, promotion which is much more potent with a story of "New player shatters long-standing DK record" than "Guy who already holds DK record beats his own score." (And of course, Billy is Billy, as we all know.)
Last thing I want to point out, as Coleco was saying, FBX collected these clips of the Wiebe 885k score, and they were long ago available on the TG website. They're not on Internet Archive, but the link to them is still there. Remember, this was a few years before YouTube. For videos like this, you had to download zip files on your old dialup Internet. Thanks to Internet Archive, what we do have is the name of the specific zip file, found on this page:
https://web.archive.org/web/20021004033833/http://www.twingalaxies.com:80/cgi-perl/twingalaxies_television.pl
So rather than ask TG old-timers to manually sift through tons of data looking for these clips, one could do a file search for a specific file name: "tgdk.zip" If anyone has a bunch of old TG downloads or maintenance data on an old hard drive, a quick file search could give us the only remaining artifacts of this piece of DK history.
Anyway, all this doesn't have much to do with the original post here (the Billy evidence), but it's fascinating stuff.
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RTM, I wanted to say at the outset that I may be misinterpreting your arguments, so I wanted to take a moment to clarify my understanding by walking through some of the points your raise.
It strikes me as incongruous to argue that "there is absolutely zero proof...that shows the existence of 885k on the TG scoreboard/database" and then cite the very evidence that was uncovered to confirm the score's existence - Walter's announcement and Rick's post, which was based on his review of the scoreboard in January 2003.
https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/109558-Anyone-get-a-Million-pts.on-Donkey-Kong-&-questions?p=557734#post557734
To highlight the latter point, JJT begins that thread by asking if Mitchell achieved a million point DK game. In response, Rick writes, "Not sure if Billy ever did that or not. If he did it wasn't official cuz viewing the TG records Steve Wiebe has the record at 885,900. I really thought Billy had scored in the 920k range though...but perhaps wasn't verifiable."
Further proof of the score's existence can be found in your thread announcing Steve's 947k achievement.
https://web.archive.org/web/20031203042530/http://www.twingalaxies.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1253
In post #8, mandm785@juno writes "dumb question, but did Steve just do this? [the 947k score] The reason I ask is I looked at the score details, on the online scoreboard, and it says it was submitted on March 2, 02. Was this performance of over a year ago? Just made me curious when I saw this."
You remark in post #12 that due to a system bug with the original program, the dates can be a little screwy. However in actual fact this was the date that Steve's 885k score was confirmed in the database. If you google "Steve Wiebe" "885,900" you'll get a hit where there is a discussion about updating MAME related files. One individual uses the history.dat file associated with a DK distro - the information is clearly dated as it cites Steve Wiebe as the DK record holder with a score of 885,900 achieved on March 2, 2002.
You included a post from Walter ("Billy Mitchell scored 874,300 points at Twin Galaxies on November 7, 1982...") and indicate it makes no mention of Steve's 885k score as potential proof that the 885k score either didn't exist as an official or wasn't entered. The context of Walter's discussion concerns how Mitchell was portrayed in the King of Kong. Walter's argument is that - contrary to the opinion of the movie-going public, I guess - Mitchell was not obsessing over retaining the top DK score, and a pro-Billy TG administration was not running interference on his behalf. With this in mind, Walter's announcement of Steve's 885k score, which is accompanied by an announcement of Mitchell's forthcoming video tape submission of a higher score, would clearly undermine the core of his argument, and would provide a plausible rationale for its exclusion from his historical account.
I do think that the lack of fanfare or promotion around Wiebe's 885k score is noteworthy, but my conclusion is that the lack of promotion wasn't rooted in the score's absence from the leaderboard.
RTM REPLY - I'm not the best art multi-quoting so please bear with me...
Point (1) - "It strikes me as incongruous to argue that "there is absolutely zero proof...that shows the existence of 885k on the TG scoreboard/database" and then cite the very evidence that was uncovered to confirm the score's existence - Walter's announcement and Rick's post, which was based on his review of the scoreboard in January 2003. "
REPLY (1) - I should have been more clear in what I wrote...there was Walter's wall post blurb, and Rick Carter's forum response, but no proof of snapshot from the database itself showing the score as being entered.
When I wrote the article I checked the database and there was no earlier 885,900 score present at the time...not sure what happened to it but I also never saw it in the database in the first place. As for Walter's wall post, back in that era of TG one wall post came down to make room for another so there is no easy way to determine just how long it remained on the TG front page short of clicking subsequent archive.org pages one at a time until it disappears. No matter, I am maintaining that I did not see it...can't forget something I never saw as I would not have remembered it to begin with, and a new DK WR would have been well-remembered by me back then.
Issue (2) - Further proof of the score's existence can be found in your thread announcing Steve's 947k achievement.
https://web.archive.org/web/20031203042530/http://www.twingalaxies.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1253
REPLY (2) - thanks for locating the original TG forum post of the WR !! A Google search could not turn it up. But I did read the original article as well as the subsequent replies...where within the article or the 8 replies was mention of the 885,900 made ?
My article notes that was the first kill screen that I had witnessed, confirming I never saw the 885,900 performance, as well as mentioning that the WR had not changed hands much over the past few years, as well as only Billy being the dual-holder...technically Steve would have been but again, I never knew that at the time.
That post number 8...it does not specifically reference a score of 885,900 and no subsequent post confirms this. Not playing dumb here, but there is no way to be sure of just what that post is alluding to. It might very well have been an earlier score, I just do not know for sure. And again, not one of the key people...Walter, Billy or Wiebe himself, ever corrected me as to the article failing to mention an earlier score validated by TG.
A point I'd like to make is that in July of 2003, I did not see the score within the TG database under the arcade platform. I would not have checked MAME as there was no need to. Not sure what happened to it, but I'll end by saying I maintain no such score was present when I wrote the article.
I am not disputing accounts that show at one point it was there...I'm simply stating that while that score may have been originally present, I was completely unaware of it. Makes me wonder if the goal was to bury the score so as to generate more "pop" for what was yet to come. It's been too many years and the database has changed hands and iterations several times...I doubt we will ever know for sure.
I'll accept the fact that anecdotal evidence suggests the 885,900 existed...but it would have been nice for Walter, who gave a thumbs-up to my article, to inform me that I was missing the fact of the earlier performance. Or Wiebe himself, once the article posted. Bill never told me, that's for sure.
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there is now way to be 100% sure of the score in that post its true. Its more of just the unlikeliness of coincidence and how computers work. To have just the right date, for the person and game just different score seems to much of a coincidence to be attributed to some random bug. It seems to indicate the prior scores existence. I dont know if the score was hidden from RTM when he entered the new score, and so the hidden but not expunged old score somehow had its date merged with the new score, i dont know if when you entered the new score you overwrote the old score leaving the date, theres any number of explanations. but of all the explanations i dont see it being some random coincidence, its a real indicator the score existed in the database, certainly among the possibliteis is the score was invisble to you and then some later bug caused the dates to get crossed between the hidden score you didnt know about and the score you did enter.
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Robert has said this before multiple times:
My recollection of dealing with Steve for the first time is when he contacted me at my office immediately prior to the DK WR of 947K...he said he set a new WR but was playing at the wrong settings as I realized from the discussion (he had extra lives at start set to them max) so he said he would try again at 3+1 which he did.
It strikes me as likely that the 885k score was done on the 6-man setting and was quietly removed once this was known. TG was not particularly transparent when it came to correcting errors. Do you remember if the 885k was done with 6-lives Wolff?
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there is now way to be 100% sure of the score in that post its true. Its more of just the unlikeliness of coincidence and how computers work. To have just the right date, for the person and game just different score seems to much of a coincidence to be attributed to some random bug. It seems to indicate the prior scores existence. I dont know if the score was hidden from RTM when he entered the new score, and so the hidden but not expunged old score somehow had its date merged with the new score, i dont know if when you entered the new score you overwrote the old score leaving the date, theres any number of explanations. but of all the explanations i dont see it being some random coincidence, its a real indicator the score existed in the database, certainly among the possibliteis is the score was invisble to you and then some later bug caused the dates to get crossed between the hidden score you didnt know about and the score you did enter.
RTM REPLY - in the old TG database whenever a new score was entered it did indeed over-write any previous score for that variation/person, but again the score was not present at the time I crafted the article. It could have been "expunged" at some point prior to that by Walter, without "fanfare", and such an action would have been invisible to myself or my fellow referees of that era.
There was no capacity with that incarnation of the database (the old "PERL" based system, as Corcoran referred to it) to mark a score as being in "hiatus" status...not until Brien King rolled out the new post-lawsuit system after he joined the group.
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Robert has said this before multiple times:
My recollection of dealing with Steve for the first time is when he contacted me at my office immediately prior to the DK WR of 947K...he said he set a new WR but was playing at the wrong settings as I realized from the discussion (he had extra lives at start set to them max) so he said he would try again at 3+1 which he did.
It strikes me as likely that the 885k score was done on the 6-man setting and was quietly removed once this was known. TG was not particularly transparent when it came to correcting errors. Do you remember if the 885k was done with 6-lives Wolff?
RTM REPLY - when Wiebe first contacted me about a score that he did at the wrong settings he mentioned he was playing at 6+1 and I told him it s/h/b 3+1. That was the very first time I ever spoke with Steve and he did not mention having sent in any performance under those settings...he definitely did not send any to me until the 947.2K.
If the tape was sent to Walter then he would have been the one to authenticate it. I'm curious to know what Wolff will respond with as his role (and that of his brother) were different than mine at the time due to their technical skillset...they did more than typical referee-level work for TG
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https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/214252-More-Shenanigans-with-Respect-to-DK-Billy-and-Possibly-Walter-as-Well-these-from-1983-!!?p=1081831#post1081831
the missing scores in the link are of very reminiscent of this of steves pretty much unknown 885,900. i cant help but to notice 886,00 is just 885,900 rounded up. i wonder if walter talking about the 80s actually had his years wrong, and if both these questions answer each other. perhaps the mystery 886,000 score from 1983 was actually the 885,900 and walter was just confusing different events.
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https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/214252-More-Shenanigans-with-Respect-to-DK-Billy-and-Possibly-Walter-as-Well-these-from-1983-!!?p=1081831#post1081831
the missing scores in the link are of very reminiscent of this of steves pretty much unknown 885,900. i cant help but to notice 886,00 is just 885,900 rounded up. i wonder if walter talking about the 80s actually had his years wrong, and if both these questions answer each other. perhaps the mystery 886,000 score from 1983 was actually the 885,900 and walter was just confusing different events.
Just a few updates.
Snowflake, I'm not entirely following the thread here - the 885,900 DK announcement was posted to the TG website in 2002; the reference to the 886,000 score was from the TG Rules circa 1983, which was higher than the verified TG score. It could have been Mitchell's personal best, in the same way he cited a PB of 909,000 in 1984:
885,900 - 2002 TG announcement on the Day Report (see Feb 13): https://web.archive.org/web/20020408172037/https://www.twingalaxies.com/cgi-perl/dayrep_Feb_2002.pl
886,000 - 1983 TG rules reference (see Section 17): http://www.videoparadise-sanjose.com/tg-rules.htm
To address the query about whether Wiebe's DK 885k score was done on 5 + 1 settings and thus quietly dropped after some time on the leaderboard, I spoke to Steve a while back and he stated that the 885k score was done on 3 + 1 settings. He also said that he dealt exclusively with Walter on the score, which is born out by RTM's experience and FirebrandX. Not to get in a battle over 20 year old recollections, but Steve recalled that the conversation about confirming settings pertained to DK Junior only, as the rules for that game when he checked briefly stated 5 plus 1. The discussion over DK Jr is born out by your announcement RTM of the DK Jr 1 million record on 10 September 2002:
https://web.archive.org/web/20021206223655/http://www.twingalaxies.com/cgi-perl/breaking_news.pl
Additionally, I think that the headline for Wiebe's TG announcement of his 947k score acknowledges the 885k score "between the lines":
"Donkey Kong Record Passes 900K" - "Steve Wiebe of Redmond, Washington is the first player to pass the 900,000 mark on Donkey Kong" with a link to RTM's forum post of Wiebe's game.
https://web.archive.org/web/20030730135517/http://www.twingalaxies.com:80/
I find it interesting that it talks about cross the 900k threshold instead of "Steve's first DK WR," for example.
Finally, there was an article reference in the TG archive - Walter often compiled article citations featuring TG members, and there was a list concerning Steve, I think most were related to his 947k DK score, but this one was related to his DK Jr million point game:
The game of his life: Richmond's Wiebe sets new world record in Donkey Kong Jr. (17 July 2002 - Eastside Journal, Bellevue, WA)
In outlining the process that Steve followed to achieve recognition of his DK Jr score, the writer mentions his existing DK record:
"Wiebe video-taped his record-setting performance and mailed it TwinGalaxies.com, a web site devoted to video game news, statistics and player rankings. His new score has yet to be published, but you can still find him on the site. He also holds the world record in Donkey Kong, the arcade version, with 885,900 points."
And this point as well when he bought a second cabinet to go for the WR (after selling the first one he used in his fraternity):
"Soon he felt the urge to buy another one. He purchased a classic arcade machine off Ebay and had it upgraded so it would play both Donkey Kong and Donkey Kong Jr. The final cost with shipping set him back more than $1,000."
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Hi all, thanks for approving my registration. I'm no expert, but I've become more interested in all of the updates to the Mitchell saga, was digging around, found this thread, and then found something interesting that may shed light on this thread, even months after the recording surfaced. So between that and not being able to find a direct contact for RTM elsewhere, I figured I'd register and add it, since it looks like it wasn't showing up it last year's Google searches for "Steve Wiebe" with "885,900."
I don't know if this wasn't properly crawled when this thread was first active last year, or if TG added new archives, or what, but there IS a January 14, 2003 post from "permafrostick" in an archived thread on the TG forum that mentions Wiebe's 885k as the then-current record in TG standings:
https://www.twingalaxies.com/archive/index.php/t-109558.html
permafrostrick
01-14-2003, 10:44 AM
1.Is it true that Billy Mitchael got a million points on Donkey Kong?
1a.Has anyone gotten a million points on Donkey Kong?
Not sure if Billy ever did that or not. If he did it wasn't official cuz viewing the TG records Steve Wiebe has the record at 885,900. I really thought Billy had scored in the 920k range though...but perhaps wasn't verifiable.
1b.Who was the 1 player that got 1.6 million pts.in the 80's & wrote a how to book on Donkey Kong, I think I saw it in a video game magazine as the world record is there any validy to this record?
There was a thread on this....might be in the old tg forums forum here.
The 1.6 million was a hoax...I think technically the guy predicted what he would have had for score or started a new game after the kill screen giving himself however many men he had left entering the kill screen in the previous game. Either way his score was bogus.
2.What is the current World record that was set by Steve Wiebe at 968,+ pts. if I'm correct?
If the TG online scores are current, it's 885,900 by Steve.
10.What are the top 7 scores for Donkey Kong & what are there names?
A simple search of the TG scores database at this web site will show you the top scores. I have no idea if new ones are going into the 2nd edition.
I have no idea what this means in the grand scheme of things. But right there in black and white is contemporaneous post from January 2003 saying TG had 885 as the record at that time.
Any thoughts? Is this just a whole lot of nothing or does this help illuminate certain things to people who know much more about this than I do?