Donkey Kong Forum
General Donkey Kong Discussion => Donkey Kong Milestone Achievements => Topic started by: Sanjuro on August 02, 2018, 06:37:28 pm
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Is Billy's game amongst the standard scores, or is he on a different plateau now? I've been enjoying the streams.
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Is Billy's game amongst the standard scores, or is he on a different plateau now? I've been enjoying the streams.
The word "standard" can't even be used in a sentence related to Billy Mitchell.
Different plateau? Let's put it this way: when God said "Let there be light", Billy Mitchell said "Say please".
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Is Billy's game amongst the standard scores, or is he on a different plateau now? I've been enjoying the streams.
The word "standard" can't even be used in a sentence related to Billy Mitchell.
Different plateau? Let's put it this way: when God said "Let there be light", Billy Mitchell said "Say please".
You're not wrong!
It's just nice to watch. I'm glad he can now enjoy it with his son.
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So there's this long line of people waiting to enter through the
Pearly Gates and suddenly this guy starts walking
down the line and throwing people out of line. Next guy up asks
St. Peter, what the hell, does that fucktard think he's God? And St. Peter
replies, "He is God - he thinks he's Billy Mitchell."
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Billy Mitchell is a big BM. His streams, as entertaining as they may be, are a distraction. He can play as hard as he wants. It changes nothing in regards to his scandal. His legacy, maybe, because he can point to new scores that are 1M+ and say he’s a 1M+ player (again), but it doesn’t change what he did. He’s still an arrogant lying cheater. The fact that he’s grinding on DK so hard indicates (to me) that he knows he hasn’t put up legit scores in the past. Why re-perform if your prior performance was “valid�
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If <Billy> is the first DK player to break 1.3M it will still not change his Mame tapes.
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Is Billy's game amongst the standard scores, or is he on a different plateau now?
He has reached the amazing plateau of having the 40th best score in the world on his signature game.
He's finding it difficult to get the same kind of RNG he used to be able to get on those silent 'direct feed' recordings, with those troublesome girder fingers. Funny that.
Still, hats off to the Gamer of the Century. Wherever there are slow learners, he will have an audience.
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Billy Mitchell is a big BM. His streams, as entertaining as they may be, are a distraction. He can play as hard as he wants. It changes nothing in regards to his scandal. His legacy, maybe, because he can point to new scores that are 1M+ and say he’s a 1M+ player (again), but it doesn’t change what he did. He’s still an arrogant lying cheater. The fact that he’s grinding on DK so hard indicates (to me) that he knows he hasn’t put up legit scores in the past. Why re-perform if your prior performance was “valid�
Is Billy's game amongst the standard scores, or is he on a different plateau now?
He has reached the amazing plateau of having the 40th best score in the world on his signature game.
He's finding it difficult to get the same kind of RNG he used to be able to get on those silent 'direct feed' recordings, with those troublesome girder fingers. Funny that.
Still, hats off to the Gamer of the Century. Wherever there are slow learners, he will have an audience.
Oof. This sounds a lot like the old guard refusing to let go.
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Oof. This sounds a lot like the old guard refusing to let go.
You could not have described the redemption tour more accurately if you tried.
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You could not have described the redemption tour more accurately if you tried.
Sure. Doesn't change the fact he is still competing at a high level and bringing attention to the sport, be it positive or negative.
Beyond that, the cynicism and attitude from the community has largely kept me from wanting to share my own personal scores and experiences.
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Beyond that, the cynicism and attitude from the community has largely kept me from wanting to share my own personal scores and experiences.
I've heard from many folks that the years of cheating and acceptance of his cheating had kept them from wanting to participate as well. I think things would have went much better for Todd and Billy had they just come out at some point over the many, many years and admitted making a mistake. Compounding the problem with more lies, attacking the researchers via interviews and maintaining a stance of innocence despite mounds of evidence has created cynicism and attitude of sedimentary rock thickness. It's going to be difficult to crack that with a few Twitch streams.
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Oof. This sounds a lot like the old guard refusing to let go.
Wait wait... are you saying WE sound like the old guard refusing to let go?
And that the cynicism and attitude surrounding a known cheater is some sort of repellent to new players?
You're upside down on this one. The "old guard" are the ones who abetted cheating. We are the new guard and we rebuke liars and cheaters. If you're turned off by the cynicism and attitude from us, who rebuke the cheaters, then I have to wonder what your motives are.
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Wait wait... are you saying WE sound like the old guard refusing to let go?
And that the cynicism and attitude surrounding a known cheater is some sort of repellent to new players?
You're upside down on this one. The "old guard" are the ones who abetted cheating. We are the new guard and we rebuke liars and cheaters. If you're turned off by the cynicism and attitude from us, who rebuke the cheaters, then I have to wonder what your motives are.
I mean, the fact that you are questioning my "motives" is making my point. Keeping the community in check is one thing, ostracizing is another. An insular portion, despite debating who did it first is still insular.
I don't really have a dog in the fight. I've enjoyed watching Billy and Steve over the years, up to Wes and Robbie more recently. They've all played an important role in rediscovering this hobby.
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If people are repelled by vocal cheater-haters, that's their reaction to have and they have every right to have whatever reaction or response they please. If they care about the game and the hobby, they'll understand how it can be a personal and emotional issue for others who care as deeply or more deeply than they.
If people are calling out vocal cheater-haters, for one reason or another, it would be naive to think that there aren't motives involved. Me wondering what your motives are is a result of your remarks about us being the old guard and not able to let go. If your motives are simply "let bygones be bygones" then more power to you and I respect your forgiving attitude. If your motives are "it doesn't matter that he cheated because he can do a better score than that now anyway" or perhaps "what's the big deal? he cheated at a video game. so what?" then I cannot agree.
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If you think calling out Billy for being a cheater and not giving him forgiveness is tantamount to ostracizing would-be new members in the community, you're being far too sensitive, and so are those would-be new members.
If you can't see that we care deeply about all this, and think we're just stuffy stubborn gamers holding a grudge, then you are not really in touch with the situation. It goes beyond falsifying performances FYI.
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If you think calling out Billy for being a cheater and not giving him forgiveness is tantamount to ostracizing would-be new members in the community, you're being far too sensitive, and so are those would-be new members.
If you can't see that we care deeply about all this, and think we're just stuffy stubborn gamers holding a grudge, then you are not really in touch with the situation. It goes beyond falsifying performances FYI.
Ultimately, Billy is an instance of a bigger problem. When someone lies to accomplish a goal that others have ethical standards holding them back, contriving a story under which the lie is considered acceptable is symptomatic of a system in peril.
The system of achieving scores through Twitch is rife with ethical quandaries of its own, independent of anything specific to Billy Mitchell.
I look forward to the spectacle that is Billy Mitchell running into the proverbial "speed bumps" of the two main points of evidence.
#1: the "finger" evidence of MAME
#2: the "luck" of the smash
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearson%27s_chi-squared_test
It should be possible to come up with the probability, from the smash data, that those smash scores were achieved legitimately.
I would guess the probability is far lower than one in a million that those smash scores were scored in a single game.
Has someone already done this? If there is interest I can run the test on the smash data or help someone else who is interested.
I think that for an average person to quantify it to "1 in xxx chance" how lucky one would have to be to get those smashes it might help translate to the public given the knowledge of the code that produces the values as independently random results.
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Hickey has already done this. I think he posted it to the TG dispute too. Lemme find it.
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Again, you're making my point. You jumped at the chance to call me too sensitive, telling newcomers to beat it, it's survival of the fittest. That's the definition of an insular community.
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The troll is strong with this one.
Keep it up, you could become an honorary Brit
ROFL
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The troll is strong with this one.
Keep it up, you could become an honorary Brit
ROFL
Uh, who have I been baiting? I've been responding in good faith.
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I could say that you'll have to provide a link to your claims of good-faithiness
But that would definitely be trolling.
Keep going though, you show potential
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I could say that you'll have to provide a link to your claims of good-faithiness
But that would definitely be trolling.
Keep going though, you show potential
...uh, likewise I suppose.
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I have to admit that over the past 24 hours the <popcorn> has been extra salty
8) 8) 8)
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I have to admit that over the past 24 hours the <popcorn> has been extra salty
8) 8) 8)
Yeah, I've been playing some catch-up and noticed that as well. I didn't think anything I posted would catch vitriol, but...here we are.
BibleThump
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Billy streamed another 1M game last night and from what I could tell his gameplay is as follows:
Barrels: Use both hammers
Pie Factory: Free pass and if not available then get the hammer
Elevators: Get all three prizes
Rivets: Use the Star Pattern and Kong leeching when available
With him doing it twice in a few days and making it look like getting 1M is such an easy task, it makes me wonder why nobody at the 1st Kong Off in 2011 was able to do it including himself.
Were all of them not doing one of the things listed above or was it something else?
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With him doing it twice in a few days and making it look like getting 1M is such an easy task, it makes me wonder why nobody at the 1st Kong Off in 2011 was able to do it including himself.
There were a LOT of failed attempts along the way, though. The strategy is simple enough. Doing it without dying four times is easier said than done.
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Again, you're making my point. You jumped at the chance to call me too sensitive, telling newcomers to beat it, it's survival of the fittest. That's the definition of an insular community.
You show me where I said that. Yes I said you were too sensitive. That is the only accurate depiction you made of my statement(s). You are crushing it with the words-in-mouth-putting today.
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Beyond that, the cynicism and attitude from the community has largely kept me from wanting to share my own personal scores and experiences.
If you go to any other thread around here, outside of those that are purely drama-driven, I think you will see the overwhelming support within the community, for its honest players, be it the newest of the new player, or the seasoned veteran. We support each other, we cheer each other on. Until the true details of the scandal came to light, Billy was also counted among that camaraderie, where he chose to include himself in it.
Conversely, you will see the overwhelming rejection of any activities that are not within the best interest of the community and one's pursuit and enjoyment of the game (i.e. cheating). I'm sorry but the "all press is good press" argument doesn't fly here. Please feel free (and be formally invited) to engage as part of the healthy activities that go on around here. Leave the rest at the doorstep.
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Billy streamed another 1M game last night and from what I could tell his gameplay is as follows:
Barrels: Use both hammers
Pie Factory: Free pass and if not available then get the hammer
Elevators: Get all three prizes
Rivets: Use the Star Pattern and Kong leeching when available
With him doing it twice in a few days and making it look like getting 1M is such an easy task, it makes me wonder why nobody at the 1st Kong Off in 2011 was able to do it including himself.
Were all of them not doing one of the things listed above or was it something else?
Yup, BM's gameplay, as you described, is the basic formula for getting roughly 1M points, and this was known by top players at KO1.
I would say the reason that nobody got 1M at KO1 is a combination of factors.
1) Psychological barrier - Not many people had broken 1M at that time.
2) Certain aspects of the game that make survival easier while maintaining pace are better understood now than they were back then.
3) The KO1 event was pretty short, and RNG is pretty strong with this game.
4) At least two 1M capable players did not attend the event.
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Again, you're making my point. You jumped at the chance to call me too sensitive, telling newcomers to beat it, it's survival of the fittest. That's the definition of an insular community.
You show me where I said that. Yes I said you were too sensitive. That is the only accurate depiction you made of my statement(s). You are crushing it with the words-in-mouth-putting today.
Then if you would like to clarify, sure. That was how I took your post towards me to be honest.
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Kong Off 1 was more about winning the contest of the weekend. The environment was more hectic, loud, and packed than other kong offs, but still probably the most awesome in my opinion. So, each of us was just trying to beat the highest score of the day.
I think Billy made his point about reaching 1 million. He should at least try to match his KoK score now. The game gets exponentially harder increasing final score by 50K each time.
Given my current goal is 1.13M range, I don’t think I ever tried to recreate a low million score after achieving it in 2011.
But, the point has been made by several others, and I’m not trying to discredit anything Billy’s proving now, but it’s hard to erase the evidence of the tapes. Can’t see someone accidentally playing on mame on several instances, with board verifications, and not know it.
Just remember, the last WR tape was 1.06M on 1.125M pace. Huge difference
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Then if you would like to clarify, sure. That was how I took your post towards me to be honest.
How's this for clarification - you said I was telling newcomers to beat it and that it's survival of the fittest. That is total bullshit that you made up. Clear as a bell.
I think I'm going to walk away now.
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Then if you would like to clarify, sure. That was how I took your post towards me to be honest.
How's this for clarification - you said I was telling newcomers to beat it and that it's survival of the fittest. That is total bullshit that you made up. Clear as a bell.
I think I'm going to walk away now.
No worries. Then let's leave it there. I posted in the shinebox for any other clarification.
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Just remember, the last WR tape was 1.06M on 1.125M pace. Huge difference
The strats were very different too. Different than actual 1.125 strats.
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Just remember, the last WR tape was 1.06M on 1.125M pace. Huge difference
The strats were very different too. Different than actual 1.125 strats.
The people who will believe will believe no matter what. Thats how things go generally. Its almost a year later and somehow getting a million points now means so much and I just simply dont understand that. Did anyone really think he couldnt get a million points? I knew he could. Nothing about the TG stuff was about a million points was it? I thought it was was about stuff from several years ago not last week or even last year?
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I have dropped into a few Billy streams out of curiosity. It isn't the same DK community I know and love in the chat, and I don't particularly enjoy his gameplay. Regardless, has he been verifying his cab via standard procedures in these streams? If so, are we going to allow these new scores on DKF? I could care less about TG submissions.
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I have dropped into a few Billy streams out of curiosity. It isn't the same DK community I know and love in the chat, and I don't particularly enjoy his gameplay. Regardless, has he been verifying his cab via standard procedures in these streams? If so, are we going to allow these new scores on DKF? I could care less about TG submissions.
I don't know what the standard procedures are, but you can see the cabinet opened up starting around 4:02:00 here:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/290847896
In the streams Billy (or his son) has voiced his disregard for DKF, so I doubt his scores will be considered for listing here unless he specifically requests it.
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It's difficult to know how the burden of proof changes for someone who has been caught cheating and has continued to be in denial.
In an ideal world the burden of proof should be identical if that burden is solid enough to actually cover all of the ways a person can cheat. Standard verification across most of CAG just involves showing gameplay and ideally the board it's played on but that doesn't cover things like altering code on roms to tweak code (like say odds of getting an 800 point blue smash). There is a certain level of trust involved in most score submissions regardless of if we all formally acknowledge that.
It'd be hard for some people to accept any score that <Billy> submits at this point without a full mea culpa, which isn't likely to happen.
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It's difficult to know how the burden of proof changes for someone who has been caught cheating and has continued to be in denial.
In an ideal world the burden of proof should be identical if that burden is solid enough to actually cover all of the ways a person can cheat. Standard verification across most of CAG just involves showing gameplay and ideally the board it's played on but that doesn't cover things like altering code on roms to tweak code (like say odds of getting an 800 point blue smash). There is a certain level of trust involved in most score submissions regardless of if we all formally acknowledge that.
It'd be hard for some people to accept any score that <Billy> submits at this point without a full mea culpa, which isn't likely to happen.
He hasn't submitted a score to the DKF (to my knowledge). If he decides to do so, I think that Jeremy should be the one who determines what criteria must be met in order to accept his score. In the event Billy does submit to the DKF, I'll be fine with whatever <snek> rules. Without <snek> many of us wouldn't have a DK score ranking. His judgement is and always has been beyond reproach. I don't see <Billy> submitting a score here, but stranger things have happened.
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From what I understand he's on the, "My real scores are going to be done live at an event." So it seems like even Billy doesn't want what he considers practice scores to count. I could be wrong though.
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I wonder why someone would grind so hard trying to get a score and then not submit it to a score keeping authority?
If both DKF and TG are to be "disregarded" then what's the point?
I'm pretty sure half of his audience has no clue about his history. Maybe it's a case of "You can fool some of the people all the time".
Then again with a ego that large, anything is possible.
Deep in that subconscious, there maybe a yearning for redemption. It would never be admitted though. That would be a sign of weakness.
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Last week he got two 1M games within a couple of days and now last night he played for thirteen hours straight and wasn't able to get past level 13.
So would that big of a difference be caused mostly by the RNG in DK or would it more likely be that he just wasn't on the top of his game due to fatigue or whatnot?
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Billy's legitimate 1M play looks like everybody else's 1M play. If he keeps going and gets even higher scores, the gameplay style will be different in predictable ways, and it will be so different from his MAME "WR" recordings that he will further prove that he used save states on those. There's some irony in that. His "redemption" gameplay will further confirm that he had cheated previously.
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There's some irony in that. His "redemption" gameplay will further confirm that he had cheated previously.
Yeah I've noticed that too, if ever there was any doubt of cheating then these current streams confirm it beyond doubt.
I'm still waiting for the stream where he gets his record on DK then follows it with a single game of Jr and beats his best on that too. ROFL
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Sadly, only a couple hundred people in the world understand the difference in gameplay.
Hey, I respect the current grind, even though some people got screwed in the past with shenanigans. I just wish he’d come clean with the old scores and end this fiasco. The movie is over so he doesn’t need to play the villain anymore.
Like, he’s a pretty good dk player. Always was. And nobody really doubted his ability to get a million (whatever he may say). We doubted his ability to play at 1.125 pace, especially HOW he was maintaining said pace.
When he starts 1.1 runs I’m 110% sure it’ll be with actual 1.1 strats. And he’ll probably get it for real this time.
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Hey, I respect the current grind, even though some people got screwed in the past with shenanigans. I just wish he’d come clean with the old scores and end this fiasco. The movie is over so he doesn’t need to play the villain anymore.
Like, he’s a pretty good dk player. Always was. And nobody really doubted his ability to get a million (whatever he may say). We doubted his ability to play at 1.125 pace, especially HOW he was maintaining said pace.
When he starts 1.1 runs I’m 110% sure it’ll be with actual 1.1 strats. And he’ll probably get it for real this time.
This pretty much sums it up. If he came clean and continued to grind it out to get a real score no one would doubt it and people might even respect it. Same goes for Todd. As it is, without owning the past mistakes there's no real value in anything he does in getting a score now outside of getting his disciples excited.
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Billy's legitimate 1M play looks like everybody else's 1M play. If he keeps going and gets even higher scores, the gameplay style will be different in predictable ways, and it will be so different from his MAME "WR" recordings that he will further prove that he used save states on those. There's some irony in that. His "redemption" gameplay will further confirm that he had cheated previously.
The paradox is delicious, no? The more he tries, the more blatant and obvious the original lies become.
In a world riddled with violence, abuse, war, poverty, and injustice, lying and cheating about a 1981 video game clearly doesn't rank among the worst that human beings are capable of.
The real shame, as with any sociopath who can have a decent night's sleep after dissembling to their nearest and dearest, is the effect the mendacity has on others, particularly those whose trust was honourably placed in them. So Walter Day and Richie Knucklez, and other friends of billy end up being tainted with the same rancid bucket of horseshit as he does.
A man who can barefacedly lie to, and then enlist HIS OWN CHILD to help his 'redemption' efforts is truly a special kind of person. 'There's a level of difference between people', and it translates into some aspects of basic human conduct.
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This pretty much sums it up. If he came clean and continued to grind it out to get a real score no one would doubt it and people might even respect it. Same goes for Todd. As it is, without owning the past mistakes there's no real value in anything he does in getting a score now outside of getting his disciples excited.
Guys like this never admit a fault though. Ever. No matter what. No matter if they are caught with the smoking gun in their hand.
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I wonder why someone would grind so hard trying to get a score and then not submit it to a score keeping authority?
If both DKF and TG are to be "disregarded" then what's the point?
I can understand not submitting the score, especially to TG and DKF. That sense of pride we get from doing something like getting 1M on DK is worth it for a lot of us in many cases. There are a lot of times I've spent a good amount of time working on a game or a particular feat with no record of it or recognition from others because I just wanted to prove to myself I could do it and feel that sense of accomplishment. That's good enough for me and a lot of people in a lot of cases.
Considering he has pretty much missed his chance to come clean and retain any semblance of credibility, I can see why that's pretty much his only option now. It doesn't change the past, it doesn't change the evidence, and it doesn't mean he can start submitting scores again to reputable scorekeeping agencies. He may be able to keep improving and one day put up great scores, but I honestly like to think we as a CAG community hold ourselves to higher standards than to allow his scores regardless. This isn't the NFL where you get to keep your title when you get caught cheating. You can't pull an Argentina and handball your way to a World Cup, use it to build a public image, make a movie about it, and then attack anyone who questions it with logic and valid evidence later. There is no redemption or glory to be derived from this quest, and there is no way back as far as I am concerned.
So, I really hope, for his own sake and that of his son who has been defending him so vigorously, that he is doing this for himself. There's also the chance he's doing it for fun, but that doesn't seem like much of a motivator to him... or to play Donkey Kong for 1M+ scores.