Donkey Kong Forum
General Donkey Kong Discussion => General Donkey Kong Discussion => Topic started by: homerwannabee on October 17, 2013, 05:53:47 am
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People as of late are saying that the 8 way joystick is an advantage. I don't see a real advantage for doing so. Yeah, you can climb, and possibly steer a barrel away from before getting hit, but there is a 1 in 5 shot it does not steer. Why would anyone take a chance like that in the first place? In the end I think the 8 way is much to do about nothing. It may allow you to do something you can't do with the 4 way, but what it allows you to do doesn't really improve anything in regards to the game in my opinion.
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How many times have you gotten stuck exiting a ladder and subsequently got hit by a pie, fireball, or barrel?
How many times have you steered a barrel (or wanted to steer a barrel) while on a ladder but that split second meant you weren't going to make it up the ladder in time to beat the incoming barrel? (Note the barrel you are steering isn't necessarily the incoming barrel)
The advantage becomes more and more obvious the better you get and the more point pressing you do. I'm going to pull a Riley here, but in DK3 if Stanley could change platforms while running, do you think there'd be an advantage?
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I never tried one, but from a speed run/efficiency point of view, I guess if you hold it diagonally as you're approaching a ladder you'll always get the most efficient "corner cutting" with getting on and off ladders, which can prevent getting stuck in ladders etc. not sure if it works like that or not. But that is somewhat of an advantage there.
EDIT: simultaneous post, may have just said the same thing as hank was getting at
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Well your efficiency can go up if you are able to steer barrels whilst climbing up or down ladders. If nothing else, it can improve your score due to less time wasted...less points lost off the bonus timer.
There are also those that believe pushing right or left on the control stick will mess with the fireballs/firefoxes...and on rivets if you can keep climbing while "pushing" firefoxes away from you, this is also an advantage.
In the end I would tend to agree with you though, it won't make a huge difference...but it would make a somewhat of a difference.
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you can corner off ladders but not onto them Dave...
i cant imagine someone used to a 4 way changing over in order to get an advantage, but i think if you basically learned from scratch on an 8 way you would have a small advantage...
i havnt tried it on L4+ but id guess dealing with the springs might be a problem, as its easy to accidently hit a diagonal and run past the ladder...
8)
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How many times have you gotten stuck exiting a ladder and subsequently got hit by a pie, fireball, or barrel?
How many times have you steered a barrel (or wanted to steer a barrel) while on a ladder but that split second meant you weren't going to make it up the ladder in time to beat the incoming barrel? (Note the barrel you are steering isn't necessarily the incoming barrel)
The advantage becomes more and more obvious the better you get and the more point pressing you do. I'm going to pull a Riley here, but in DK3 if Stanley could change platforms while running, do you think there'd be an advantage?
Never have I played a game of DK3, and wished that Stanley could run while switching platforms. Now wanting Stanley to be able to jump horizontally is another story. Yeah, I have been stuck on ladders, but I just chalk it off to me being stupid, and going too early.
Hmm, but I could see how using the 8 way would stop being stuck on the ladders. That's something I didn't contemplate. Still that's something happens infrequently. Like what, 1 in 10 games perhaps? So yeah, there is an advantage. Now the question becomes is the advantage discernible enough to markedly improve gameplay? In the end I still don't think a person's high score game is going to be improved that much, but I can see an argument where what if the person has their great game coinciding with the 1 in 10 games that they usually die from a 4 way joystick?
I can understand that philosophy, but if you eliminate 8 ways, than the next logical step is to eliminate MAME games from the scoreboard entirely. I don't think that's fair given that an 8 way is not that great of an advantage.
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People as of late are saying that the 8 way joystick is an advantage. I don't see a real advantage for doing so. Yeah, you can climb, and possibly steer a barrel away from before getting hit, but there is a 1 in 5 shot it does not steer. Why would anyone take a chance like that in the first place? In the end I think the 8 way is much to do about nothing. It may allow you to do something you can't do with the 4 way, but what it allows you to do doesn't really improve anything in regards to the game in my opinion.
It's possible to steer barrels while on a ladder, whether playing on MAME or arcade (4-way or 8-way). The major difference is that, with an 8-way, you can steer barrels while continuing to climb. With MAME (unmodified version) or a 4-way, if you attempt to steer a barrel (pressing left/right) while climbing a ladder, Jumpman will come to a complete stop. Therein lies one advantage. If you can steer and climb simultaneously, it saves time. It might be only a fraction of a second, or it could be much more (if you have to retreat down the ladder to avoid other oncoming barrels). You arrive at the top of the ladder more quickly, begin grouping on the 5th girder earlier, grab the top hammer sooner, finish the stage with a larger bonus timer value, etc. Over the course of a full game, just 200 extra points per barrel board quickly add up to more than 10k.
George, you seem to be suggesting (and correct me if I'm wrong) that if the barrel doesn't steer, death is almost a certainty. Why? Consider a situation where you're climbing the center ladder from the 3rd to the 4th girder. A barrel is above you on the 5th girder, rolling left. If an attempt to steer that barrel down the broken ladder fails, does that barrel really pose any immediate threat?
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thats a good point about steering Hank, you can use it to group/steer barrels other that the one that is oncomming which is handy...
8)
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Well you could just say however you want to control the game is up to you :) - Put an 8-way in or a 4-way or use keyboard interface. EVERYONE has the ability to do this right so does it really matter? I mean you can get down to this n'th degree of separation on any video game and find something that could possible discern an advantage. Considering the mental adjustments needed and not to mention how many deaths would be CAUSED by having an 8-way vs 4-way I just don't see it making that much of a difference. We don't see sprinters debating that so and so had a faster time because his shoes were better do we? :D
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Dave, I think you missed this topic:
https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=576 (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=576)
Fast Eddie and I did some experiments on 8-way/arcade.
I thought of another advantage. You could retreat on elevators (when you are partially up the ladder) much faster and smoother.
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We don't see sprinters debating that so and so had a faster time because his shoes were better do we? :D
You don't see that because there are already strict rules about allowed footwear. See USATF rule 143, section 3: http://www.usatf.org/about/rules/2007/2007USATFRules_Article4.pdf (http://www.usatf.org/about/rules/2007/2007USATFRules_Article4.pdf)
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Because of the reasons stated, and the growing number list of advantages, which has led me to make the proposal. I had mame in mind when I made the proposal and we have discussed that there maybe a way for us to detect if a modified form of the rom was used during simple playback. Besides, there is no logic exclusion of mame here. Quite simply, the HSL uses the platform section to divide how the game was played. Making any adjustment to the rules concerning an Arcade submission will not effect mame at all. In fact, I would add another rule to specify that the dkong rom is not to be modified and explain that it would invalidate the score. As of now, and I plan to continue to allow, player choice on input in mame, meaning they can use a keyboard, joystick, etc. If/When I choose to add the new rule, I will explain our discussions, list possible advantages, link these threads, etc. It will be comprehensive. As always, all your input is considered, and always appreciated.
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Well you could just say however you want to control the game is up to you :)
As long as the rules are uniformly applied, I really don't care-- player's choice or 4-way only. However, given that DK arcade was intended to be 4-way, I'd say that makes the most sense.
I do agree, in the short term, if I switched to 8-way, I'd be screwing myself. But I bet after a year or so of practicing it, I'd be kicking butt.
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I've lost a lot of good games recently due to getting stuck on a ladder. It is an important control not to let happen and can mean the difference between life or death if you're trying to beat a barrel or fireball.
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I posted this in the 'Submissions Rules' thread before I saw this discussion here. Corey had mentioned using the 8-way as an advantage while climbing the middle ladder and trying to steer a barrel on the 5th girder down the broken ladder on the right between the 4th and 5th girders:
In the example of using it while on the very middle ladder on the barrel screen (the example Corey gave above), you may actually gain just enough of an advantage to actually significantly decrease the difficulty of then going from the 4th to the 5th girder (which I think most agree is the hardest part of the 'transition'). The extra time saved could translate into enough distance to be able to 'beat' barrels to the top of the long ladder under Kong that you might not have been able to do otherwise. It may also give you enough time to get to the safe spot between the ladders a lot sooner than usual, by not setting you up in a situation(which is fairly common) where if you were to immediately run left after reaching the top of the (middle) ladder, you would coincidentally steer a barrel down Kong's ladder too (effectively causing you to have to delay). This sort of potential advantage I'd actually see as quite serious.
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We don't see sprinters debating that so and so had a faster time because his shoes were better do we? :D
You don't see that because there are already strict rules about allowed footwear. See USATF rule 143, section 3: http://www.usatf.org/about/rules/2007/2007USATFRules_Article4.pdf (http://www.usatf.org/about/rules/2007/2007USATFRules_Article4.pdf)
My point is they cant all afford the SAME brand can they or they might be affiliated with someone else saying the nike brand is faster then the adidas they are wearing. I'm just saying anyone can do this if they desire so why care other then that is how the game was originally made? Wait that replacement monitor is not an ORIGINAL Donkey Kong Monitor, Wait that wood panel on the control panel is not original 1981 pine from the mamosa tree... See what I'm saying you can take this out to a ridiculous degree in the name of trying to shave off anything people may or may not do. Someone could likely make it LOOK like a 4 way but play like an 8 way if they were so inclined. I still think the 8 way would cause more deaths then it would help avoid because you would accidentally go up or down a ladder when you didn't want to. I'm fine with saying it has to be a 4-way but I just think talking about maybe the 2000 - 6000 points you could get over the entire game is kinda funny :)
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...I just think talking about maybe the 2000 - 6000 points you could get over the entire game is kinda funny
But talking about saving 1 death here or there isn't funny. I think the added advantage of survivability might be the more crucial of the advantages, given that most people aren't above 1.15m pace -where 2-6k would be a significant amount of points.
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I just think talking about maybe the 2000 - 6000 points you could get over the entire game is kinda funny :)
We're looking at this from different perspectives. For you 2-6K points is not even passing an extra board. But for me 2-6K points means I have to do the superjump and grab the top right prize on elevators (actually I think that's worth a little more than 2-6K) or put myself in danger of a fireball several more times.
Ask Vincent if he thinks 2-6K points is funny. Actually he'd probably say yes.
My point is DK scores past about 900-950K are not linear. A 1M game is a lot more than 110% of a 900K killscreen. And holds even more so for a 1.1M over a 1M and yet even more for a 1.2M over a 1.1M.
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I just think talking about maybe the 2000 - 6000 points you could get over the entire game is kinda funny :)
We're looking at this from different perspectives. For you 2-6K points is not even passing an extra board. But for me 2-6K points means I have to do the superjump and grab the top right prize on elevators (actually I think that's worth a little more than 2-6K) or put myself in danger of a fireball several more times.
Ask Vincent if he thinks 2-6K points is funny. Actually he'd probably say yes.
My point is DK scores past about 900-950K are not linear. A 1M game is a lot more than 110% of a 900K killscreen. And holds even more so for a 1.1M over a 1M and yet even more for a 1.2M over a 1.1M.
Yeah i just think its debateable if you really would have a super advantage or not because moving diag also means you climb up and down when you may not want to so would you truly avoid deaths or have to be even more cautious? It probably is an an advantage but its only 0.005% of an advantage so just let you play with an 8-way then and push it farther if you think you could. Anyone would be able to have an 8-way or 4-way in as a controller then so the playing field is level right? The reason against it is strictly to say "You have to play the game as it was originally intended." which is perfectly fine with me. It's just harder and harder to find one "original" anymore. I've been trying :)
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Dan, if someone mastered the 8-way, it would not lead to deaths at all in this case. Even sliding the joystick along an 8 way restricter could be done with great precision. How arcade controls give inputs is very different then the type of monitor, and the kind of wood used to compose the cabinet. TG already has this criteria of a 4 way joystick configuration with restricter plate. Originally we did not add it to the list, even though it was discussed, because it was not proven to be possible, in fact, it was "known" not to be possible. Now that we know, I actually have no reasons not to specify this on the submission rules. I can see great value of corning on the rivets. I am that kind of player that would if that is how it was designed. And as Dan says, playing the game as it was actually intended.
P.S. An original joystick would not necessarily be required.
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Personal testimony as evidence:
I went to the Mall of America today to play some DK at one of the bars/arcade/bowling alley venues, and low and behold, the place had added a multicade to their stock! On it was DK, so I decided to play some (even though I had been intending on playing on their 3-in-1 cab), even though I'd have to use an 8-way, taller, fighter-style joystick. Due to the fact that we've been discussing this topic here, I messed around with cornering off of ladders as well as climbing while steering. I'd have to be honest and say that getting used to the different joystick was actually very easy for me, and that within just one game, the advantage of the 8-way joystick was absolutely apparent! It was like having an all new ability given to Jumpman. It was just as simple as having a small change in ability while climbing/getting off of ladders, but it was definitely a huge advantage (basically in many of the ways that have been mentioned) in terms of general gameplay. For anyone who is both 1) decent at DK, and 2) able to adapt and learn to play with an 8-way, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind now that it is a significant -if not, huge, advantage.
Take my personal testimony here how you will...
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The 8 way that Steve Wiebe used was from a Playchoice. It's the standard Nintendo joystick except it has an 8 way restrictor plate with notches for the angles. So it is easy to hit them precisely.
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IMO an 8 way joystick is a bigger advantage than any small difference between joystick/keyboard. Much bigger.
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Thanks for the summary on your 8 way trial Mitch...that's exactly how I would have thought it to be. I don't think it would take long to get used to, and it would for sure add some significant abilities to Jumpman's movements.
An 8 way would give a player an advantage.
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Guess what I was saying is being lost here. EVERYONE has the ability to gain this "advantage" so its not an advantage anymore see? It's kind of like The Incredibles.
Syndrome:
I'll sell my inventions so that *everyone* can have powers. *Everyone* can be super! And when everyone's super...
[chuckles evilly]
Syndrome:
no one will be.
Saying its an advantage isn't an argument if everyone is allowed to have said advantage. The argument is it has to be played as originally intended (Which is most assuredly valid). Will this apply to all 4-Way games that may have an 8-way joystick in them?
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Guess what I was saying is being lost here. EVERYONE has the ability to gain this "advantage" so its not an advantage anymore see?
OK I see what you're saying. I agree with this and would not be strongly opposed to making it "player's choice". However, this would require most of us to relearn the game. I do feel this was not the way the game was meant to be played and actually would create a significant divide between MAME and arcade (MAME doesn't allow 8 way without some trickery).
It's like allowing steroids in baseball or fast cursor in Missile Command. Sure no one has the advantage but it's not the way it's meant to be played. Bright idea: we need Roy Schildt to settle this!
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It's been 4-way from the start...so that's why I don't think anyone would want to make 8-way legal. It changes the game. You would have to start a new track with 8-way controllers allowed.
Kinda like hammer/no-hammer. They are separate tracks because the hammer gives you a huge advantage...survival-wise and point-wise. 8-way would do the exact same thing...although on a smaller scale.
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Guess what I was saying is being lost here. EVERYONE has the ability to gain this "advantage" so its not an advantage anymore see?
OK I see what you're saying. I agree with this and would not be strongly opposed to making it "player's choice". However, this would require most of us to relearn the game. I do feel this was not the way the game was meant to be played and actually would create a significant divide between MAME and arcade (MAME doesn't allow 8 way without some trickery).
I sometimes play DK on an 8-way stick at Joystick Gamebar (in fact i played a few games last night). My experience has been it makes some things easier and some harder, and with my current level of experience with the stick and my current level of DK play, it's probably a bit harder.
With regard to allowing it, I would say that for TG submissions, 8-way shouldn't be allowed. It does noticably change the game in material ways from the play on original DK cabs. For Corey's list I'd think it could be allowed since the list isn't supposed to be as formal a list with the same level of verification required.
-George
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its interesting because this will come into play when the arcade WR starts getting pushed to the limit, id definitely be curious how much extra points it would be worth to someone who got really serious about playing with an 8 way...
but i dont think the scoreboard here should be mixed...
8)
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The DK HSL has a lot of the same verification elements as TG. Most people seem to agree that we should place a new rule on the list for all new submissions and this is what I will be writing up. Some may disagree with this decision but again, I think I have heard enough support for its addition.
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The machine I bought came with and still has a 8-way joystick. I'm about to switch over to a 4-way, and hopefully it doesn't affect my game. I'll be sure to post how I do with the 4-way...
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Truthfully the 4-way is way better in my opinion! I feel more accurate in my game play. Switching over didn't affect my game at all.