Author Topic: Streaming Tournament for Everyone?  (Read 15014 times)

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JohnTheLawnMan

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Re: Streaming Tournament for Everyone?
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2013, 12:16:56 pm »
I have a couple ideas how to make it more fun and interesting, since we all know who the top players will be.

Definitely has to be no handicap.  Play your best game and see where you rank.

It'll be pretty cool to see a complete tournament ranking.  To see who steps up their game and who cracks under the pressure.

I also think many will be surprised at the top 10 in these open tournaments.  I'm not convinced the usual suspects will all be there.  Way to many good players these days and we all know how the randomness can shut anyone down.

Offline danman123456

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Re: Streaming Tournament for Everyone?
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2013, 04:10:20 pm »
Ok so sounds like people prefer a no-handicap straight shooter and let everyone participate. I'm willing to try and coordinate this. Since its a little more open would someone prefer an entire weekend to participate of just the straight up 24 hours winner take all format that has been working for the WCR's? John/Eric mind if we work together on this a little I know you have a lot of experience/ideas for this and I don't want anyone to think I'm stepping on your toe. Would think we should do this soon" but not in direct conflict with any big events or the WCR's. :)

I would say Prize Money is off the table but I might donate to some bounty type settings just to keep it interesting. I might consider putting some older gear up (Atari 2600/7200 carts, Commodore 64's, etc, etc) but just want it to be fun and for some bragging rights if anything. :)

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Offline Scoundrl

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Re: Streaming Tournament for Everyone?
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2013, 06:58:42 pm »
Personally I like the handicap idea and if thats the format that happens I'll kick in a few buck to the prize pool.

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Offline danman123456

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Re: Streaming Tournament for Everyone?
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2013, 08:39:51 pm »
Ken I was thinking about both too. Basically handicap and scratch. It does solve both equations pretty nicely. You get to see how you rank straight up and then with a handicap.  It does handle it for both and its all in fun. The only real issue I see with that is how to determine a handicap? Guess the HSL here could be the gauge?
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Offline up2ng

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Re: Streaming Tournament for Everyone?
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2013, 02:14:14 am »
Some cool ideas in discussion have come up within this thread which is great.  But, I just want to clarify my original idea.

I was generally responding to the trend that there has been multiple tournaments organized with serious prize money which (somewhat arbitrarily) has excluded the very top players in our game.  I'm not really sure how that idea snowballed into such a popular format, but it leaves some of us out that are extremely active in the game.  Interestingly, I think someone touched on some of the true motivation already within this thread when they said:

Quote
One thing about a no-handicap open is that it would basically have to be no-prize, purely for fun, otherwise you might as well just hand the money to Dean and Jeff.

Ok, whether or not this is really true in the context of a short tournament is debatable, but if this is how a lot of players feel, then I can see why perhaps participation might be lower if the top players could enter.  Obviously, for a major event like the Kong Off(s), there should be no handicap since that's pretty much our championship event for our game.  But, for these "side" tournaments that pop up where additional prize money is offered, in order to make it more "fair" and interesting, I think handicapping is a nice compromise.

Keep in mind I'm using the word "compromise" because the whole idea is basically to try to convince tournament organizers to allow the top players to enter these tournaments where we have previously been excluded for whatever reasons.

But anyway, let me clarify my original handicapping idea here:

I was using a baseline score of 900,000 points because in the specific case of Donkey Kong, that's approximately the score that can be reached by hitting the killscreen without going out of your way to do any additional point pressing beyond just using the top hammer on the barrel screens, which most players do anyway for safety reasons and because it requires almost no additional effort beyond skipping it.

*** Players with a top score BELOW 900,000 points should NOT be handicapped! ***

There are several reasons for this.  Players with scores under 900,000 points simply have not played the game anywhere near as much as players with scores over 900,000 points in general.  So, just by virtue of playing the game just a little bit more their scores will improve dramatically.  The main reason for that is because it's just a matter of progressing a bit further into the game in order to improve their scores which could happen at any moment, including during a tournament.

However, achieving scores beyond 900,000 requires more and more strategy, knowledge and skill in point pressing the game.  The effort required for every additional 100 points earned beyond 900,000 goes up exponentially, not linearly.  Because of this, I feel like the large pool of players who are kill screen players or near kill screen players feel like perhaps they just would not be able to keep up with the top players in a tournament so the solution has been to just exclude the top players.  So, my solution instead is to handicap the top players to create "a more even playing field" between players who can point press the game and players who are not there yet.  But in no way does it make sense to me to just hand a 200,000 point player the tournament by shipping him a huge amount of points so that if he has any sort of break out personal best game he wins the whole tournament -- I mean, we're still competing here right?  Let's reward high scores and not go TOO crazy with handicapping.

So, if 10 players enter the tournament, it would go like this:

Player A:  PR of 250,000 (handicap 0)
Player B:  PR of 500,000 (handicap 0)
Player C:  PR of 750,000 (handicap 0)
Player D:  PR of 850,000 (handicap 0)
Player E:  PR of 900,000 (handicap 0)
Player F:  PR of 950,000 (handicap -40,000)
Player G:  PR of 1,000,000 (handicap -80,000)
Player H:  PR of 1,050,000 (handicap -120,000)
Player I:  PR of 1,100,000 (handicap -160,000)
Player J:  PR of 1,150,000 (handicap -200,000)

So, I hope that helps clear up what I was suggesting and the ideas behind my suggestion.  Of course, anyone who is willing to put up prize money and go through the trouble of organizing great events for our community can do it however they wish.  But, I just wanted to point out that some of us have been left out and I hope that there might be some future tournaments besides just "Wild Card" events.  Don't get me wrong -- I think the Wild Card events have been great, and it's especially interesting that it seems to have morphed into a way for many players to try to qualify into the Wild Card division at Kong Off events, which I think is great.  But hopefully we'll see some other events here soon where we can all compete.
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Offline TheSunshineFund

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Re: Streaming Tournament for Everyone?
« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2013, 06:25:12 am »
All the major Classic Gaming Tournaments throughout the year are always well attended despite the fact that the same names seem to continue to take home prize moneys.  I would never want anyone excluded from any tournament I entered or for it to be handicapped in any way, at that point I'm not being fair to myself in assessing my results in addition to penalizing other players for their past efforts in advancing their scores.  For example, I once played in a tournament called the Donald Hayes Challenge which I paid an entry fee for and in which Donald also competed in and it consisted of his favorite games.  In essense, I paid money to play in a tournament against arguably the best CAG player in the world, on games he helped choose and where he was able to compete and collect first place money.  Of course I want him to play, that's the competitive spirit.  I finished a close second and was happy about it but had I won and he not competed I would not have been nearly as satisfied.  IMO, It's still a hobby, it really shouldn't have the vast number of caviats that a professional career does and given that the population is so small to begin with, tightening the potential entries even further seems counterproductive to me.   
« Last Edit: June 14, 2013, 06:49:47 am by pwnasaurus »
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Offline LMDAVE

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Re: Streaming Tournament for Everyone?
« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2013, 08:52:59 am »
So, if 10 players enter the tournament, it would go like this:

Player A:  PR of 250,000 (handicap 0)
Player B:  PR of 500,000 (handicap 0)
Player C:  PR of 750,000 (handicap 0)
Player D:  PR of 850,000 (handicap 0)
Player E:  PR of 900,000 (handicap 0)
Player F:  PR of 950,000 (handicap -40,000)
Player G:  PR of 1,000,000 (handicap -80,000)
Player H:  PR of 1,050,000 (handicap -120,000)
Player I:  PR of 1,100,000 (handicap -160,000)
Player J:  PR of 1,150,000 (handicap -200,000)



Let's look at the top 3 results of WC#2 and apply this:

Donkey Kong Wildcard Rematch #2 Final Scoreboard

1. Ross Benziger: 990,100
2. Jeff Wolfe: 973,100
3. Phil Tudose: 969,500

Ross' score would now become 950,100
Jeff Wolfe would be 933,100
Phil T would be 889,500 (since he's a million+ player)

Dean, you would have to get 1.15M to win the tournament with your handicap base on these results, I think that's a lot to ask.

The chances of match your own PR is, like you said, exponentially hard as the PR goes up. So, the handicap has to taper a little there I would think.

In fact, I would have "0" handicap for under 1 million because that's what the WC was anyway.

Player G:  PR of 1,000,000 (handicap -40,000)
Player H:  PR of 1,050,000 (handicap -70,000)
Player I:  PR of 1,100,000 (handicap -100,000)
Player J:  PR of 1,150,000 (handicap -120,000)

But, if you are willing to play with your previous odds, then I would think they would buy into that.

And of course the PR would have to be your PR before the tournament, just so if you get a new PR and throws you in a new category you don't get hit with a new handicap.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2013, 11:01:18 am by LMDAVE »
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Offline stella_blue

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Re: Streaming Tournament for Everyone?
« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2013, 10:46:51 am »

In fact, I would have "0" handicap for under 1 million because that's what the WC was anyway.

Player G:  PR of 1,000,000 (handicap -40,000)
Player H:  PR of 1,050,000 (handicap -70,000)
Player I:  PR of 1,100,000 (handicap -100,000)
Player J:  PR of 1,150,000 (handicap -120,000)


Dave, I think Dean is suggesting a handicap = 80% x ( Personal Best - Baseline Score )

In your revised scenario, the "new" baseline score becomes 1 million, so:

Player G:  PR of 1,000,000 (handicap 0)
Player H:  PR of 1,050,000 (handicap -40,000)
Player I:  PR of 1,100,000 (handicap -80,000)
Player J:  PR of 1,150,000 (handicap -120,000)

I agree that the baseline should be higher, if a handicap system is employed (although I maintain a strong preference for a "straight up" tournament format).

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Offline danman123456

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Re: Streaming Tournament for Everyone?
« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2013, 11:16:41 am »
Does anyone here have any experience playing in handicap sporting events/leagues or tournaments? The entire concept of handicapping is so that anyone has at least a chance to win. I understand what everyone is saying about just make it a straight up do your best and if you lose well then you lose. I am all for that but but I also get what Dean and Ken are saying to.

I think its perfect in this setup to have both. A score with your handicap and then your straight up score. It shouldn't be that hard to manage. I'll get some particulars around it and go from there. I think it will be a fun time for all who want to be involved and puts a little friendly pressure on everyone  :)

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Offline up2ng

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Re: Streaming Tournament for Everyone?
« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2013, 11:49:16 am »
I'm vaguely familiar with golf where they use a baseline score of par and players slightly worse than that are given stroke bonuses equal to 80% of the difference between par and their recent good scores.  Players who score under par are not further penalized AND handicapping only applies up to 32 over par.  So, for example, a player who shoots 180 is not given 100 strokes, but only the max of 80% of 32.  The best players are still the favorites but it is more even.
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Offline LMDAVE

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Re: Streaming Tournament for Everyone?
« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2013, 01:12:46 pm »
The most easiest concept of handicapping, is first pick a baseline score, then for the players with an advantage, pick what is their most likely score (and if you want to use PR then use it), then subtract off how much to get that score to the baseline, that is their handicapp.


If you pick baseline of 980K, then Dean would be a around a -187K


If would recommend a baseline for 980K, but for anyone over 1.1M, to just cap it a -120K

I personally wouldn't use PR since it doesn't happen tht offer for over 1m
« Last Edit: June 14, 2013, 01:52:25 pm by LMDAVE »
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Offline homerwannabee

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Re: Streaming Tournament for Everyone?
« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2013, 01:22:59 pm »
Personally I am dead set against handicaps, and think they are completely against what competition stands for.  I don't want to win ANY tournament that way.
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Offline JCHarrist

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Re: Streaming Tournament for Everyone?
« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2013, 01:35:11 pm »
How about just have a tourney that is the opposite of the Wildcard tourney and only allow 1M+ players to enter?  It could be the online version of the KO.

I wouldn't mind sitting one out to watch the big guns battle it out all day.
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Offline mikegmi2

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Re: Streaming Tournament for Everyone?
« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2013, 01:44:04 pm »
Yea, mark me down for no handicaps.  I'd rather try beating someone straight up.

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Offline LMDAVE

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Re: Streaming Tournament for Everyone?
« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2013, 01:57:20 pm »
I'm for no handicap also.

Jeff, problem with a KO type event is the majority of the TOP 12 don't stream and some don't even visit this message board.
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