Author Topic: Kong Off Wildcard Qualifiers Discussion Thread  (Read 30738 times)

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JohnTheLawnMan

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Re: Kong Off Wildcard Qualifiers Discussion Thread
« Reply #45 on: June 09, 2013, 11:39:50 am »
Agreed Dave.

Dan's statement goes right along with one of my points.  The new world "it's not fair you're better than me" mentality.

I'm getting really tired of this way of thinking.  I like to jokingly use the Billy Mitchell line, "There's a level of difference between people...", but it's true.  These days the people who are on the lower end of that "level of difference" like to come up with excuses or reasons why they should get the same benefits as as the people on the upper end of that level, regardless if it's video games or everyday life.  When it comes to DK, no one is going to get a magical 1M+ point game without having the skill to back it up.  And those that have achieved that type of score deserve  the preferential treatment they get.

Bottom line is EVERYONE has the opportunity to put up a top score.  Only the elite players will do so.  The Kong Off placement isn't flawed.  The thinking that somehow those players don't deserve to be there is flawed.  1M+ scores don't come easy, and anyone who thinks they do are sadly mistaken.

Funny how the people who haven't come close to 1M have determined how easy or lucky is was for those who have achieved it.....

Offline danman123456

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Re: Kong Off Wildcard Qualifiers Discussion Thread
« Reply #46 on: June 09, 2013, 03:21:41 pm »
No way I wasn't trying to say it was "lucky break-through" and hope I wasn't coming across as one of the "its not fair" folks Dave/John as that was not my intent at all. I completely support the concept of qualifying with the Top 3 and I actually like that better then the "Top 9 overall" scenario. If you have the skill to put up a 1 Million+ score you absolutely deserve it.

Like I said some people are just better then other people. It's that way in everything we do and in a day when "everyone gets a trophy" I feel that as gotten a little lost in translation. I've always said that if your one of the Top Tier players you will qualify regardless of what the setting is.

Agreed Dave.

Dan's statement goes right along with one of my points.  The new world "it's not fair you're better than me" mentality.

I'm getting really tired of this way of thinking.  I like to jokingly use the Billy Mitchell line, "There's a level of difference between people...", but it's true.  These days the people who are on the lower end of that "level of difference" like to come up with excuses or reasons why they should get the same benefits as as the people on the upper end of that level, regardless if it's video games or everyday life.  When it comes to DK, no one is going to get a magical 1M+ point game without having the skill to back it up.  And those that have achieved that type of score deserve  the preferential treatment they get.

Bottom line is EVERYONE has the opportunity to put up a top score.  Only the elite players will do so.  The Kong Off placement isn't flawed.  The thinking that somehow those players don't deserve to be there is flawed.  1M+ scores don't come easy, and anyone who thinks they do are sadly mistaken.

Funny how the people who haven't come close to 1M have determined how easy or lucky is was for those who have achieved it.....
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Offline f_symbols

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Re: Kong Off Wildcard Qualifiers Discussion Thread
« Reply #47 on: June 09, 2013, 03:43:51 pm »
Just my 2 cents, but the personal attacks on each other, specifically "new-world" BS, is not only in bad taste, but it's childish.  Lets keeps things professional.  I see nothing but valid critiques here that are being spun-off as personal attacks, and morality based qualms.  Disagreement with ones opinions, in no way justifies the right to attack their moral value-scheme;  The extrapolation of such grandeous linkages, based solely on ones' personal beliefs about tournament structure, are rather short minded and ignorant to say the least.

Also, as a final note. 

Am I the only one who sees the irony of a 700k player telling another 700k player what is and isn't feasible with regards to 1m?   :/

I guess we are just a bunch of testosterone crazed jocks...
« Last Edit: June 09, 2013, 03:57:52 pm by f_symbols »
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JohnTheLawnMan

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Re: Kong Off Wildcard Qualifiers Discussion Thread
« Reply #48 on: June 09, 2013, 05:14:39 pm »
Wasn't cracking on Dan.  I know Dan from KO2.  He's a very good guy, and I doubt he would have anything bad to say about me as well.  It was reference to his comment in general, as it seems to me many of the comments on the qualifying structure are in regards to fairness.

You are correct there are many opinions on the subject and no one is right or wrong.  I see the validity of all angles, and trust me Eric and I spent much time debating all the angles.  But we are not perfect, and we did overlook some things.  I also cannot stress enough that a final Kong Off 3 announcement has not been made.  So keep your ears open this week.

I'm old school, pig headed and have absolutely no patience.  These excellent traits, passed down from my beloved father, come out in all my posts.  Sorry if anyone was offended.  Specifically Dan, who I consider a true DK brother after going through the KO2 Wild Card pressure cooker together.

Am I the only one who sees the irony of a 700k player telling another 700k player what is and isn't feasible with regards to 1m?   :/

That, my friend, was a smug, attacking comment.  I would like an apology.  I feel Dan deserves one as well.

One does not need to be a 1M point player to know what it takes to achieve such a score.

We've put much time, effort and $ into trying to create a tournament to benefit everyone else.   Solely for the enjoyment of gaming.  I get absolutely nothing out of it.  And to be honest, I'm here doing this for the community and friendship alone.  DK has never been my game of choice.  I like the game and consider myself proficient at it, but there's a long list of games I'd rather play than DK.  I'm 45 years old, and have been playing these games since they were new in the 80's.

P.S.  My PB is only 667K.  So I prob have no business even being on this forum.....  ( That would be the "smart-ass" and "funny" trait :) )

Long live the users!

Offline f_symbols

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Re: Kong Off Wildcard Qualifiers Discussion Thread
« Reply #49 on: June 09, 2013, 05:28:19 pm »
The point of that 1M statement was to highlight how hypocritical it sounds for someone to berate another's beliefs regarding the feasibility of a task to which both have a similar basis of knowledge.  That's like saying my religion is right and your religion is wrong; we both have equivalent proof, yet still "know" our belief is right and the others' is wrong, just doesn't make sense.  Shortsighted logic.  Unfortunately, people have the right to interpret things as they choose.

Notice I've never made a comment regarding the "feasibility" of 1M, I know when not to talk.  Nothing personal here, just a sociological observation. 

Sorry Dan and John
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giv

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Re: Kong Off Wildcard Qualifiers Discussion Thread
« Reply #50 on: June 09, 2013, 07:26:46 pm »
I think we should settle this like they did in ancient Sumeria: Donkey Kong death match!

Offline marinomitch13

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Re: Kong Off Wildcard Qualifiers Discussion Thread
« Reply #51 on: June 09, 2013, 08:44:51 pm »
Am I the only one who sees the irony of a 700k player telling another 700k player what is and isn't feasible with regards to 1m?

I'm gonna have to agree with John on this one, Ethan. DK is the kind of game, that, after a while, you've basically seen it all. One you've reached that level, then it all becomes less about in-game skills, per se, and more about consistency, determination, focus and a bit of luck. Somone can know all the tricks and still only get 700k due to various non-knowledge-based reasons. Take me, for example: I'll be the first to admit it, when it comes to most games, my downfall is focus/patience/dedication -not usually knowledge. I think there is a point at which someone who at least knows how to execute, at a fairly consistent level, the skills that are needed for a 1m pace can extrapolate and 'know', to a sufficient degree, what it takes/will take to get the 1m+.

You are correct there are many opinions on the subject and no one is right or wrong. I see the validity of all angles, and trust me Eric and I spent much time debating all the angles. But we are not perfect, and we did overlook some things. I also cannot stress enough that a final Kong Off 3 announcement has not been made. So keep your ears open this week.

Again, John (and Eric), thanks a bunch for your time and energy spent putting something fun together for this community! I also thank you for calling on player feedback/input and being diligent in trying to think through the issues in a fair and logical way. I hope we here on DKF have been helpful and not hurtful!



As a final thought, I must admit that, even after waiting a while and putting a lot of thought in on my original post, many of the points you guys have made have caused me to amend several of my initial opinions.

1) I still think that the top 12 (or whatever number is set at as the limit for future KOs) players ought to get special perks due to their scores. This is meant both to 1) keep the KOs as significant events, where, as much as possible, the best players have the spotlight, as well as 2) to keep some balance between those people that get all the fun of being able to do the WCRs throughout the year and the top 12 players, who do not.

2) It would probably be best to figure out exactly, as much as we can, through majority opinion, what ought to be the place of the wildcard players in the KOs. I'm talking about setting up a method now that will basically be the same way it will happen in the future. A precidence needs to be set that is clear and constant (as much as possible). Whatever we come up with, we should think it through as though we want to apply it to all KOs from here on out. This won't be easy, but I think it is best, because it would allow players to know exactly what to expect and plan on. Too much change, or too many last minute suprises can make people feel like a wrench is being thrown into their plans/expectations that they've had for the least 'x' number of months/weeks.

3) Obviously, we need to balance giving the main 12 their time to shine, as well as facilitating there being a chance for any other people who want to try their hand. This is the whole issue. I realize now that by the logic of my original post, I would have had to conceed that any method of allowing WC players the chance to win the KOs is gonna be unfair in terms of how they were able to get into the competition in the first place -that is, in comparison to how the 12 main players got in. Essentially, the only two options are to either remove the wildcard machines all together and just make it the top 20 players with the highest scores, or assume that the method of entry of the contestants is gonna be unfair. Obviously (it seems), most people want there to be WC machines (just to be clear, I am also one who wants there to be WC machines), so we're gonna have to assume there is gonna be some level of unfairness going on in regards to meriting a spot in the competition.


As far as satisfying numbers 1-3 above, here would be my proposals as of now:

1) Only allow the top 12 players the privilege of their own machine. No method of allowing for WC player entry ought to end with them getting their own machine, either for one of the days or both of them. This seems to be the biggest perk that ought to be reserved only for the players who qualify solely due to their top score.

2) The method for limiting down WC players ought to only take place at the 1up itself, in the enviorment that the the best players will play in, and with all the WC players that will actually be at the competition. Limit them down there, in the same place, all at once. This would most likely be on the day before the actual KO tournament (friday). It is good to do it like this, as there will be many more machines available to accommodate if there ends up being like 40 or more WC applicants, and it also removes the possibility of people with lower scores getting in above people with higher scores (as Chris and others have pointed out earlier in this thread would happen under the current setup where we take the top 3 from each of the remaining WRCs). Whatever scores done on this day would not count towards either the actual KO standings nor could they bump out any of the current top 12 players from their spots (I believe, as last year, there was an actual cutoff date for qualifying for the top 12 spots...is it the same this year? when is it?)

3) The ratio of WC players to WC machines, for the actual tournament, should never be less than 2:1. The point of this is to go along with suggestion 1 -it basically is meant to make sure that only the top 12 ever have the perk of being able to restart after an early death or being able to start another immediate attempt while they are still 'hot' from a good game. It sucks, but, in my mind, the WC machines just have to be bitter sweet. They really have to be the 'underdog' machines if we're not just gonna, in effect, remove them all together and make it seem like it's the top 20 DK players that are competing, rather than just the 12. Maybe this isn't the perfect ratio to achieve this effect, but is the one that comes to mind (from my experience on the WC machines last year) as probably being the one that would do the job.


This is all I have for now. Sorry for the long post. Feel free to tear me apart and change my mind again. :) Hopefully there are no egregious typos this time! ;)
« Last Edit: June 09, 2013, 08:46:51 pm by marinomitch13 »
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Offline ChrisP

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Re: Kong Off Wildcard Qualifiers Discussion Thread
« Reply #52 on: June 09, 2013, 09:43:39 pm »
John, I think you might have read some things that weren't actually intended. In fact, I'm not even sure who you were directing some of that toward. But we all know by now that you're a pistol so it's no big deal either way. :)

In any case, I wanted to go a little more deeply into what I said about the current "Top 12" main lineup placement scheme being flawed. At least in 2013.

At the KO1, there was a pretty straightforward group of invitees. And except for Scott Kessler not being invited, I don't think there were any ruffled feathers.

For the KO2, the million qualifier was fine because nobody else that I can remember at the moment, except maybe Mike G., was even close. Ross could have put up a million, but in my understanding, he didn't have time to get it done. In any case, the KO2 cutoff was pretty smooth.

But there's a big problem right now in the player pool which makes the cutoff an issue that should be addressed. Too late to do anything about the KO3, but I'm thinking about next time.

If 12th place were 1,000,000 and 13th place were 950,000 it would represent a significant difference in ability, and there would be no problem. But that's not the way things are.

Much of the field right now is super-tightly clustered in the same area, which, unfortunately, happens to be right around the cutoff.

Check out spots 11-16 on our "unofficial" DKF leaderboard:

11 1,019,600    Steve Wiltshire
12 1,012,800    Kyle Goewert
13 1,010,400    Ben Falls
14 1,008,800    Svavar Gunnar Gunnarsson
15 1,007,600    Robbie Lakeman
16 1,005,700    Phil Tudose

That's six spots, with a TOTAL range of 13,900 points. A tiny little 1-2K separating each player from 12th to 16th. We're talking less than TEN POINTS PER SCREEN over a full game!
 
While John is absolutely right that there is a huge difference in ability between 850K and 1M (or 1M and 1.1M), there is literally ZERO difference in ability between this particular range of scores.

Nobody ever said that 1M+ came easy.

But the difference between 12th and 13th CAN come easy nowadays, especially given how random this damn game is. This is the problem I see with Mitch thinking that the wildcards should be (for lack of a better word) "punished". There's not enough of a difference in ability between all of the players hovering around the cutoff for 12th to deserve a massive privilege over 13th.

A few extra 800 smashes in a game that is played otherwise identically should NOT be what gets #12 into the main lineup and #13 tossed into the wildcards. There's no difference in ability there; only a difference in the randomness.

I agree with Dave when he says that "you have to cut it off somewhere." But the cutoff can be done more intelligently.

It really wouldn't be that difficult.

First, you give an auto-spot to anybody who is CLEARLY above the field (the 1,050-plus players). As of now, that's 7 people. No problem.

This would leave 5 spots, which is where you run into this massive pile-up of effectively identical personal bests between 8th and damn near 20th.

So what do you do? How do you make it fair?

Simple: you force 5 players from within that group to distinguish themselves from the rest in a way that's a little more solid than a single personal best score and you give KO spots 8-12 to those players.

There are several ways to determine those. You could have a tournament, or a series of tournaments. You could have each player submit 3 big games, and go by the average of these 3 scores (as opposed to just their PB). Etcetera.

Doing this would also force players to demonstrate consistency, which to me is WAY more important than an isolated personal best, especially when it comes to tournament play.

And if you don't wanna do that stuff, fine. Prove that you're better than the crush group and get 1,050. Even if you have to lower your pace to do it. That way players like Dave or Ross can shut down any accusations that they're "hiding behind high pace."

The fact that the cut-off is NOT more stringent is exactly why I LIKE the wildcard format this year, and why I think it's fine if the wildcards get a lot of time, maybe TOO MUCH time, on the machines. Some think it's unfair, but I think the opposite is what would be unfair, because the lower-ranked of the top 12 are not being asked to do enough to decisively differentiate themselves from the best of the wildcards.

I'm actually okay with the idea of a dedicated machine being a perk, and the wildcards being significantly disadvantaged, BUT only if all 12 in the main lineup truly earn that perk, and not just because 12th place managed to get a few extra timer ticks on a single pie factory that 13th place didn't.

Like Dan said, I would like to see qualification for the lower-ranked players move toward more of an aggregate model, relying on an actual sample size of multiple games and/or multiple tournaments, as opposed to a simple, one-dimensional "personal best." The personal bests are just too close!

Besides, we all know how random one game can be, not just for the bad, but for the good. Shaun Boyd himself, for example, openly admitted that his 1,037 game was "very lucky." Allen got 540K once. How many times has he gotten anywhere NEAR that since?

We should do more to respect the randomness of the game and consider it when thinking about qualification criteria. We also need to start placing more importance on consistency.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2013, 10:23:27 pm by ChrisP »
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7/28/2013   Coin 35,947   903,700   22-1
8/16/2013   Coin 35,948   694,100   17-6
8/17/2013   Coin 35,949   893,100   22-1

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JohnTheLawnMan

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Re: Kong Off Wildcard Qualifiers Discussion Thread
« Reply #53 on: June 09, 2013, 11:56:14 pm »
All this razzle dazzle with extra tournaments to get the "true" top 12 is where I start pulling out my hair.

We have a top 12 on TG.  They all played the game and achieved the score.  Exactly how it panned out in the game is irrelevant.  To hold a tournament to try and weed out the players who may not have deserved their score because of "positive" randomness seems insane to me.

You may debate that you are not saying they don't deserve the score.  But by not accepting their rightfull placement on TG board as qaification for the KO, and forcing them to play in a seperate tournament to prove there skill, you are saying just that...

If that happened to me I'd feel betrayed to the highest degree.  Et, too Chris?  ( I'm sure I didn't spell that correctly...)

Legit, tracked scores must be respected.  A cutoff must be decided upon and followed.   There's no other way without losing credibility.  It sucks to be on the bubble of a cutoff point, but that alone should be motivation to up your game.

Offline ChrisP

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Re: Kong Off Wildcard Qualifiers Discussion Thread
« Reply #54 on: June 10, 2013, 12:54:14 am »
Well, I'll never have to get too riled up about this personally anyway. I'm never gonna push things past a flat million + whatever change is left over, and am therefore already out of the running for Kong Offs present and future since the bottom is soon to be 1,025 or so.

Even if I did get a higher score, I don't know if I'd want my own machine.  ;D Way too much hanging out to do.

Wildcard division for life, yo.
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4 Quarters :-* - 800K Avg. Per Qtr. :o - No Restarts 8) - No Proof :'(

7/26/2013   Coin 35,946   710,800   18-1
7/28/2013   Coin 35,947   903,700   22-1
8/16/2013   Coin 35,948   694,100   17-6
8/17/2013   Coin 35,949   893,100   22-1

3,201,700: the $1 World Record?
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Offline danman123456

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Re: Kong Off Wildcard Qualifiers Discussion Thread
« Reply #55 on: June 10, 2013, 06:49:12 am »
Arggg I had a long typed out response and Chrome's backspace made it go "Back' and I lost everything so ill keep this short and sweet.

I totally see what was frustrating John and I wasn't trying to say the Top 12 isn't a feat worthy of recognizing. Totally get it. Forget a Top 12 qualifying tournament and just go with Top 7 scores of that year? (Because Billy and Steve are in if they attend, WR Holders are in and the returning Champ should be in as well which leaves 7 "Slots"). I understand the current setup and I don't hate it at all if that is how its coming across and completely understand if that is how Richie and Jourdan want to do the KO's. Its interesting if say #12 wins it all at KO3 and then gets pushed to #16 overall. Under the current system he is out unless he puts up a bigger score. I think the winner should probably be able to "defend his crown" so to speak. See my brain always wants to think of these what-if scenarios. Drives me up a wall sometimes. :)
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giv

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Re: Kong Off Wildcard Qualifiers Discussion Thread
« Reply #56 on: June 10, 2013, 07:14:09 am »
Jocks play DK? Give me a break. You guys argue and bicker like a bunch of nancy-boys!

Just play the goddam game!

 ;D

JohnTheLawnMan

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Re: Kong Off Wildcard Qualifiers Discussion Thread
« Reply #57 on: June 10, 2013, 07:47:20 am »
There are way too any scenario's to account for when setting up a tournament like this.  We can debate this forever.  All points are valid, and in the end Chris nailed it.  The Kong Off is more about hanging with friends.

It was really fun playing last year at KO2, but that was really the last thing on my list of things that made the event epic (Dell Taco with Foreman Frank at 3:00am).

Any ill feelings left from this debate will fade once the event is on and we'll all be laughing that we even took it this far.  All this heated debate is because we all really care about the community and keeping it's integrity in tact.  I think that's very cool.

We are getting a bit spoiled, though.  Dan can tell you how disappointed many were last year, due to the way the Wild Card Division went down.  Richie and Jourden were not prepared for the amount of wild card players that showed up.  No fault of there's, since the wild card division at KO1 was a last second add on and there were only about 5 players.  In Denver, there were some pissed off people that traveled pretty far and spent a good amount of money to play all weekend.  When the last minute cutoff round was announced, there was some backlash for sure.  Dan and I talked pretty extensively about it on Saturday at KO2.

The feedback for all the issues pointed out in this thread are very minimal and have already been addressed (announcement coming soon).  The wild card division is organized very well, and no matter how many people show up to play, they will all get ample time to play and a fair chance to advance to the final rounds.

As riled up and pissy as my posts may have sounded, I'm cool with everyone and appreciate ever bit of feedback, hostile or not.  That's kinda how things go sometimes on forums.  You get smacked around a bit to wake you up a let you know your still alive.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2013, 07:53:03 am by JohnTheLawnMan »

JohnTheLawnMan

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Re: Kong Off Wildcard Qualifiers Discussion Thread
« Reply #58 on: June 10, 2013, 07:51:07 am »
Jocks play DK? Give me a break. You guys argue and bicker like a bunch of nancy-boys!

Just play the goddam game!

Word

Offline TheSunshineFund

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Re: Kong Off Wildcard Qualifiers Discussion Thread
« Reply #59 on: June 10, 2013, 07:56:18 am »
Jocks play DK? Give me a break. You guys argue and bicker like a bunch of nancy-boys!

Just play the goddam game!

 ;D

It's DK though, without the drama, it'd be Congo Bongo or something.
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We couldn't greet you with a simple hello
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