Should buttons with original roller switches be required?

[lightchaser]

I voted No, at the end of the day its a button, it can only be either on or off!!!!!, let me give you this analogy .... When Tiger Woods won the Masters, did he use the same clubs as everyone else???

I've been in the Retro Gaming Community for 20 years and frankly I'm sick, tired and maybe a little jaded of the whole "community", when I first started I thought it would be a good way of interacting with like-minded people, boy was I wrong!!! It's full of arguments and constant sniping and bitching. We are all here to enjoy video games,......that's right "IT'S A VIDEO GAME", there are more worrying issues in the world.

I will say this though, A button is a button, anyone can use the buttons that Wes or Robbie uses its open and they have always been open about it but claiming to set an arcade record and a completely different system IS cheating. Seems that the whole competitive gaming thing is a sham, I pulled away from that one a long time ago. I take my hat off to Wes and Robbie for acting like true champions and gentlemen, as Tim McVey said We could use a few more like you guys in the "Community".

Just my Two Cents Guys!!!

[QAOP Spaceman]

I love me some super cheap rubber domes that take for ever to push down and can take a beating

<3 <3 <3

[jimmer]

I was very interested to read what I just did about the joystick issue.

Seems to me you will have a massive problem if you decide joysticks must be only 4way capable, as I don't see how that can be provable by video recording.

I don't actually play DK, and one reason is that I don't like how difficult the turns are, it never crossed my mind that this could be an intentional part of the game design.

edit: OK so I've just done my research (found 1 thread about 8way sticks). Seems you do require 4way sticks. So I guess I'm now curious how you verify the stick behaviour ?   

[Bounty Bob]

I was very interested to read what I just did about the joystick issue.

Seems to me you will have a massive problem if you decide joysticks must be only 4way capable, as I don't see how that can be provable by video recording.

I don't actually play DK, and one reason is that I don't like how difficult the turns are, it never crossed my mind that this could be an intentional part of the game design.

edit: OK so I've just done my research (found 1 thread about 8way sticks). Seems you do require 4way sticks. So I guess I'm now curious how you verify the stick behaviour ?   

A world record submission needs to show the control panel being used. So the player unclips the panel and shows the underneath with the restrictor plate functioning as necessary. See the below for example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWzFPMQMqt4

[jimmer]

Ah OK. I see now that's it's possible! 

You are helped greatly by specifying it must be a nintendo stick, which means you are familiar with the switch characteristics. The nintendo sticks characteristics are also helpful: the activation and de-activation points are quite separated, and the clicks sound different.

That's a video of a very 4way stick (In my judgement). But what does a video of a worn 'slightly 8way' stick look like? How good does the video audio quality need to be to make a confident ruling between 4way and 8way. I suppose the onus is on the player to satisfy the
 reviewers.

Anyway, looks like you have it under control   I'll get back to thinking about my trackball roller diameter now.

[_Zaphod_]

If you are steering barrels while climbing a ladder, it's pretty obvious.

[danman123456]

Ah OK. I see now that's it's possible! 

You are helped greatly by specifying it must be a nintendo stick, which means you are familiar with the switch characteristics. The nintendo sticks characteristics are also helpful: the activation and de-activation points are quite separated, and the clicks sound different.

That's a video of a very 4way stick (In my judgement). But what does a video of a worn 'slightly 8way' stick look like? How good does the video audio quality need to be to make a confident ruling between 4way and 8way. I suppose the onus is on the player to satisfy the
 reviewers.

Anyway, looks like you have it under control   I'll get back to thinking about my trackball roller diameter now.

The restrictor plate is what makes it a 2 / 4 or 8 way in a nintendo cabinet. ITs quite obvious what they look like. The 2 way its just left and right (Straight), The four way looks like a rounded +, and the 8 way looks like a round circle.

https://www.mikesarcade.com/cgi-bin/store.pl?sku=TKG-23-51

[dwayne]

The button issue is not really a serious issue.  Operators replaced joysticks and buttons over the years and it either helped them make more money or not.  No one plays a broken game.  So you obviously you have to fix it.  New doesn't necessarily mean better.  Wico sticks need time to get the grommets broken in.  Nintendo stick can get all greased up and attract dirt and become stiff and rust. I really all come down to the players capability not the equipment whether work or not.  The better players will always perform better all things being equal. 

Proper maintenance is what i would put the button issue under.  If you are playing with inadequate controls you have no one to blame but yourself.   People have personal preferences not everyone will find the controller the same but there is a range we all play with in that is fair and everyone agrees upon.  I personally don't like micro switch buttons on games that rapid fire or timed jumping are required.  I like leaf switches.

They are new and old button are microswitch so it real is not a very radical equipment upgrade.  It gets to actually being able to find parts.  Repros are just that not an exact replica.  It is hard to get the worn in on new sticks or worn out out of the old.  Worn out buttons need to be replaced if you are playing regularly so it is up to the player to maintain his game not radically alter it.

dwayne

[YesAffinity]

Sticks like Sanwa's are also easily verifiable.  The restrictor is in a "diamond" orientation for 4-way.  Square, round, octagonal (and some players prefer no restrictor at all, for certain applications), would not be allowable for a DK submission.  Seimitsu's which are also very common in candy cab's have a 3-way restrictor.  As with original nintendo hardware, the "rounded plus sign" position is the 4-way restrictor.

https://www.focusattack.com/seimitsu-ls-32-triple-restrictor-plate/

[dd0ck]

For a home-use only Donkey Kong it's pretty easy to get an original Nintendo button (or a good repro https://www.mikesarcade.com/cgi-bin/store.pl?sku=TKGU-23-32), and a new microswitch (https://www.mikesarcade.com/cgi-bin/store.pl?sku=TKG-23-10). This whole setup would cost about $11 from Mike's Arcade, and last forever if you're the only person using it--since it's not getting cigarette burns or getting kid snot on it, like in an arcade. And if you're the type of person to layout the cash for an original cab, an extra $11 investment seems negligible.

So there's no real argument that the original hardware experience is unattainable to those who own their own dedicated cabinet.

Then why use a newer button?

If top players favor these newer buttons, the only logical conclusion I can come to is that: they feel these new buttons are advantageous. The advantages are up for debate: reliability (works every time like the first time), less maintenance (the original setup is a pain to keep accurate over time), shorter throw (no having to account for lag), etc. But I think that top players have examined button options, and have made their choice based on their knowledge and experience. (I mean, I spent hours on the first day of the Kong Off 6 just getting my CP up and running properly, mostly due to the shitty button situation, and my original CP having an 8-way joystick. It sucks. I get it.)

Obviously:
--it makes a difference
--it's not something people could have used in the early 80s
--and I don't really give a shit if you use one

When I first started playing, I really thought people were losing their minds over the whole 8-way joystick thing, and I didn't get it. I understood that my status as a neophyte was why I didn't fully understand the intricacies of different Donkey Kong control mechanisms, and I decided to sit back, listen, learn, and develop an opinion based on knowledge and experience--instead of spouting off and looking like an asshole. The internet seems to be full of people who haven't learned this lesson.

The newer buttons are better (for some), that's clear. Does it matter? Yes. How much? Not enough.

4-way joystick matters. Buttons can be a pain in the ass, use whatever works for you.

[_Zaphod_]

My opinion is buttons do not matter FOR THIS GAME. the ability to press the button rapidly does not matter for DK.  Therefore, any reasonable button design should be accepted.

Sticks are a different matter. My opinion is that it should be a nintendo stick with 4 way restrictor plate, or a reasonable replication.  Failing that, it should have a clover gate, and NOT a diamond gate.

it is too easy to shift directions 90 degrees rapidly on a diamond gate compared to a clover gate.