VS. Super Mario Bros. Discussion

[xelnia]

Thread for VS. Super Mario Bros. - 5 Lives strategy and tips.

Chosen by: Donkey Kong Forum

ROMset: suprmrio [WolfMAME 175 only]
Special Rules: Run ends on 5th death or game completion
Banned tactics:
1) No shell abuse: You can kick a single shell away a maximum of 2 times.
2) No finishing a stage with 000 on the clock: The game timer loops it to 999 and is not permitted.
3) No wrong warps/obvious glitches: Manipulating pipe/vine locations, floating shells, walljumps, wallclips, etc.
Lives: 3
Bonus Life: 100 Coins
Timer: Slow

[xelnia]

Since the game list hasn't been officially released and the tourney hasn't started, we have some time to hash out the rules and settings for this game. I sent andrewg a PM, but I want to talk about it here too.

1) The current parent romset is not available in 106. The 106 romset is a clone in newer MAME. What are the differences? I saw someone say that the 106 version is bugged or broken? Is that true? VS. SMB is not on RU.

So, the options are to only allow WolfMAME 175 using the current suprmrio set, or use the 106 suprmrio set and the 175 suprmrioa set. This assumes there are no changes when 175 is released next week.

2) Banned tactics? Limited lives? Should we have any? The TG rules for TGTS are pretty extensive:

Special Rules: Your scoring attempts ends when either you die for a 5th time, or you manage to Defeat Bowser and Save the Princess at the end of 8-4, thus beating the game. The Turtle Stair Hop trick is banned and use of it will result in IMMEDIATE disqualification of your score, accidental or not. [This also would include the use of a single enemy to get increasingly larger amounts of points by repeatedly jumping on it] Waiting to grab the Golden Axe, at the end of every Bowser level until the LAST POSSIBLE SECOND, causing the timer to revert to 999 is BANNED and use of it will result in IMMEDIATE disqualification! Use of the Wall-Jump tactic is NOT allowed! You MUST access the Underwater area of 8-4 by using the pipe across the lava pit. Doubling back and using the pipe before the pit to do so will equal Disqualification. Use of ANY Pipe to go somewhere different then the programmers intended is BANNED! Warping IS permitted!

[andrewg]

I sent a fairly thorough ruleset for this to xelnia.

When it comes down to it, there are too many glitches in super mario bros, and the effort TG made to try and list them all out is...well, it doesn't do any good. There are far more things that would need to be covered to say everything that "should" be banned with Vs Super Mario Bros.

It's not really a great score game, but I think TG's rules are pretty good actually; It's just phrased a bit over the top.

or

We could use the category I created if you would like. It's somewhat interesting, but it becomes a shell grind fest. It's interesting in concept, but eh...
http://www.twingalaxies.com/scores.php?scores=132430&ref=fbshare

[andrewg]

I'd opt for TG rules over my concept category.

[krehztim]

I just need to know what's decided about the mame version for this game, so I can start re-practicing.  I think Phil and I had a chat about timer speed, but I can't remember if it was confirmed 106 has a faster timer. 

[VON]

Point-pressing by way of turtle hopping and/or timer manipulation is not especially skill intensive and it's boring as fk.  I would ban these two tactics.

The 5-life limit is also necessary otherwise it would be possible to go infinite.

I do not see any reason to ban wall-jumping or dictate which pipe must be used in 8-4.

My 2 cents.

EDIT: Thinking about this more, adjudicating the 5-life limit might be a pain in the ass.  Is there a more elegant solution?

[xelnia]

EDIT: Thinking about this more, adjudicating the 5-life limit might be a pain in the ass.  Is there a more elegant solution?

Since games will have to be checked for banned tactics, setting a lives limit doesn't really change the pain-in-the-assness. It's really a choice between a free-for-all (lame) and rules that require every INP be closely checked (tedious). I prefer tedious over lame.

[xelnia]

I like the ruleset andrewg sent me:

From what i was told, the main romset for the newer MAME version should be the one that is best to use (which is somewhat annoying because TG uses a flawed romset it seems). You should be able to score slightly higher with the new romset, so anyone who uses .106 would just be at a disadvantage. Where's a good place to download that vs smb romset? I'd like to make sure I have it and that it's good.

As for banned tactics, I've created a simplified version:
1) No shell abuse: You can kick a single shell away a maximum of 2 times, and cannot touch/destroy the shell after the 2nd kick
2) No finishing a stage with 000 on the clock: The game timer loops it to 999 and is not permitted.
3) No wrong warps/obvious glitches: Manipulating pipe/vine locations, floating shells, walljumps, wallclips, etc

Ruleset:
- Run ends on 5th death or game completion
- Coins for extra life: 100
- Starting lives: 3
- Timer: Slow

So, we would use those rules and require that only WolfMAME 175 be used.

[VON]

I think the no shell abuse clause is a bit strict.  As it stands I think it makes it too easy to accidentally kill a game.  I would suggest 3 kicks and dropping the "cannot touch/destroy" part.

Am I missing something?  Why is destroying the shell after the 2nd kick such a problem?

[andrewg]

Yes, this is why the run is a bit difficult. However, the only times I usually even risk kicking a shell 2 times is when going for long koopa combos and extra 1-ups.

I think the arcade rules allow for some leniency though (the definition in the NES ruleset is not directly in the arcade, but implied).

I think the rules I defined should stay as is, but if someone accidentally hit it an extra time oh well. Im not concerned unless theyre using it to get some extra 1-up, etc since the timer nearly will offset it anyway...

[VON]

Interesting.  Wow this game is deep.

Thanks for the response.

[andrewg]

Revised:

Banned tactics:
1) No shell abuse: You can kick a single shell away a maximum of 2 times.
2) No finishing a stage with 000 on the clock: The game timer loops it to 999 and is not permitted.
3) No wrong warps/obvious glitches: Manipulating pipe/vine locations, floating shells, walljumps, wallclips, etc

Ruleset:
- Run ends on 5th death or game completion
- Coins for extra life: 100
- Starting lives: 3
- Timer: Slow

I've given it some thought, and I think this is the best option for IGBY. Now we need to decide what MAME and ROM is acceptable.

[xelnia]

andrewg posted these level maps in the shoutbox:

http://themushroomkingdom.net/maps/vssmb

[andrewg]

- hidden 1-up blocks are hidden in 1-1, 3-1, 5-1, 7-1. You must get enough coins in prior x-3 stage for these to appear. Example: I got enough coins in 2-3, now the 1-up in 3-1 will show up.
- shell combos with 1-ups are possible in levels 3-2, 5-1, and 8-1
- grab every coin you can without being dumb
- Beating the game will net you 100k per life left, and will almost definitely give you over 1 million if you do.
- fastest route to beat game: 1-2 -> warp to 4-1, 4-2 -> warp to 6-1
- pattern for 7-4 is bottom, top, top then bottom, top, bottom

Good luck all.

[andrewg]

OK, here's my advice:

If you think you can beat the game - do that and get as many coins as possible.

If you don't think you can beat the game - ignore coins and focus on stomping on koopas and getting combos