Donkey Kong Forum
General Donkey Kong Discussion => General Donkey Kong Discussion => Topic started by: homerwannabee on January 28, 2014, 06:35:39 am
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OK, I have been thinking about it. What some may not know is no one in the history of Arcade gaming has ever held all 3 World Record titles at the same time in Donkey Kong, Donkey Kong Junior, and Donkey Kong 3.
I think there was a point about 3 or 4 years ago when this could have been done. Billy Mitchell had his opportunity, but he didn't like DK3, and so he never went after the title. The same is true for Steve Wiebe who could have done it as well. Now I just don't think it can be done by anyone. In fact I am not too sure anyone will ever again have the Donkey Kong, and Donkey Kong Junior titles at the same time again. Here are my reasons for believing this.
1) Donkey Kong itself has too many people gunning for the record. Yes the record will be broken this year. How can someone get the other 2 records when by the time they get one of the other records someone else will have surpassed them in this game.
2) Donkey Kong Junior, and Donkey Kong 3 both have had their world record scores pushed to a very high level. Speaking from experience that 1.41 million Donkey Kong junior score by Mark Kiehl is insanely good. I think most of us could play this game every single day for the rest of our lives, and never reach that score. As far as my DK3 score, all I know is it's over 3 times higher than the 2nd place. So take from that what you will.
3) All 3 have world record holders who are still active. Meaning that if you somehow break one of the records you will most likely get a response from one of us. And most likely that response would be done before anyone could move on, and break another record.
4) DK3 is so different from the other first 2 games that it actually weeds out a few very good players because their skill set is mainly on platform games instead of shooter games.
5) Potential lack of interest to go after the DK3 record. Remember Billy Mitchell, and Steve Wiebe at one time had the opportunity to get the triple crown. They took a pass on it. So it's possible that even if someone like Mark Kiehl came along, and got both the DK, and DKJr records at the same time that he would take a pass on DK3. I used his name because he doesn't really play the game.
So there you have it. I just don't think anyone will EVER hold all 3 world records at the same time. It's in my opinion the ultimate triple crown. I could see someone hitting .400 in baseball before I could see someone getting all 3 records at the same time.
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Well and the fact the scores are so high is a real mark of why they wont be held at once by all three. All of them can still be broken but the amount of effort to get all those scores is a HUGE task. IT would take years. DK is probably the most active and its now at a level where it takes more than just skill alone to get it. You need some luck too. Same probably holds true for DKJR and DK3 but I just don't have enough experience with those games to say that for sure. If I get the record on DK I will move on to DKJR for sure and just try and get that trifecta badge hype!
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I would say it's unlikely but not impossible. An interesting poll would be to ask the the top 5 players in each game what their interest is in getting the record on the other two games.
I think the player with the highest combined skill set for all 3 games would be Ben Falls, so any theoretical Triple Crown discussion would have to start with him. In fact, I would say Ben has the greatest combined skill set for all DK-related arcade games (Crazy Kong and D2K included). Is he the best at every one? No, but he would have the least amount of work to do.
George, since you're already at the top of DK3 and have the 3rd highest DKJR score your biggest remaining challenge would be to get the DK record. So, what is YOUR interest in doing that?
You're right that the DK arcade competition is hot right now, so any potential future WR might not be able to hold that title for long. Then again, Hank's been at the top for 3 years now. If the next DK WR holder can hold the position for 3 years, that might be enough time for them to attack the other two games. But how long would it take for you or Mark to take those records back?
Maybe the best approach for a Triple Crown would be a long, slow, tedious approach: learn the WR skills for each game at the same time. If the WR for each game is increased during the learning process, so be it. Keep with the practice until you're confident that you can make a run for each record in a short amount of time...probably a month or less.
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I could see someone holding both DK and DK Jr as both those games have similar game mechanics. It's been done in the past (I think by both Steve and Billy). DK3 however is a completely different game. I'd be surprised if anyone ever held the DK3 WR and either the DK or Jr record.
I personally have little/zero interest in going after the DK Jr or DK3 WR. DK Jr. spark jumping is just too painful and DK3 doesn't appeal to me. In my opinion, the spark jumping is the result of a mistake in the game balance for Jr. It would be the rough equivalent of getting 200 points for jumping a single barrel in DK with no threat from fireballs. We'd all be standing on the 6th girder jumping singles. How boring would that be?
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Yeah, like I've said before it's really too bad that to go for a really high score you have to milk the Hideout until the timer runs out. I think the game's design was rushed a bit, but there really needed to be an element that "forced" you to finish the screen. Then again, I highly doubt either DK was designed to make point-pressing entertaining, or even an aspect of the games. Even though throwing in the Dean Move, and going for the 4 spark smash can keep it a little interesting, it is quite a drag...but it's the other 200-300k you have to find that's more interesting.
As far as DK3 goes, I have actually been playing it sporadically. It is a fun game, but frustrating for me so I tend to put it down for long periods. I played last night matter of fact, and petered out at 350k so I'm limping towards 1m on that title. I think once I "figure out" a few more things I will get there. WR on DK3? No way. ha ha
For DK, I just don't play it enough I guess. Motivation has been a factor there, unfortunately. I, like others, have had a handful of deep games right around the pace needed but you know how that goes and how much it means.
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All three games are too pumped up now for a single player to get the triple crown. Nobody has that much time, or more importantly, desire. You'd have to want this really, really badly to even attempt it, let alone succeed, and it isn't a goal for anybody in the current player pool.
Nobody is even in the neighborhood of the DK3 record. I don't think anyone will ever beat that score.
I agree with you that the DK record will fall this year, though I must admit it kinda scares me that we are the de facto officiating body now that TG is gone. Do we have the clout to declare a new world record?
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Also, what does it mean in the era of no Twin Galaxies, to even earn a world record. Must it be done live? If not, who verifies the scores?
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I agree with you that the DK record will fall this year, though I must admit it kinda scares me that we are the de facto officiating body now that TG is gone. Do we have the clout to declare a new world record?
You should be scared.
Yeah, it's me, Tony de Facto.
"Hey Vinny, I want you to break this guy's jump button."
World Record? Fuhgeddaboudit.
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Don't worry, I've been thinking about this stuff these last few days and will make a big, tiresome, rambling post (forum, not blog) about it soon. ;D
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All but impossible. (Likely) Requirements for the average gamer: get the toughest video game record in existence, suffer through DK Jr., learn DK3 from scratch. Not happening.
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get the toughest video game record in existence
I think we can all agree to say that the Donkey Kong record still has a lot of potential to be upgraded. But if we're talking about Dean's score on MAME, it would indeed be one of the toughest arcade video game record to beat. As for 1,138,600, I know at least 5 people that could break it within a week if they tried (and I'm not even including myself! Kappa)
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I think if you exclude marathons, Dean's 1.2 DK score probably IS the hardest existing record to beat in all of classic gaming. (Include marathons and it's a different story.)
I'd be interested to know if anyone thinks otherwise.
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I know my opinion is biased, but I would have to say that Greg Bond's 1.277M point game of Mappy is tougher to beat.
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after the BOTA i will be making very serious effort to really learn reg DK and beat mark again on Jr. so after i have those two. we will see HEHE
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I think someone will unify the belts, eventually. The main reason being that I think there are several, younger, determined DK-game players who I think, either secretly, or openly intend on going for the trifecta.
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I think if you exclude marathons, Dean's 1.2 DK score probably IS the hardest existing record to beat in all of classic gaming. (Include marathons and it's a different story.)
You're supposed to say, "In my opinion", before making statements like that Chris. ;)
In my opinion, Aart's MAME score of 1,769,990 on Galaxian displays his mastery of that game is at a level above anyone's current mastery level of Donkey Kong. Aart's score was one of the first inps I downloaded purely to enjoy watching a wizard at work - no intention to study the game, just wanted to watch him do his thing. It was amazing. It is, still, an amazing game.
But Galaxian is a different game than Donkey Kong. Different skill sets are required. I'm pretty good at Donkey Kong, so my appreciation for its record will always be a bit tempered. I'm average at Galaxian, so my appreciation for its record may be overblown. And that's why, this is my opinion.
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I think if you exclude marathons, Dean's 1.2 DK score probably IS the hardest existing record to beat in all of classic gaming. (Include marathons and it's a different story.)
You're supposed to say, "In my opinion", before making statements like that Chris. ;)
In my opinion, Aart's MAME score of 1,769,990 on Galaxian displays his mastery of that game is at a level above anyone's current mastery level of Donkey Kong. Aart's score was one of the first inps I downloaded purely to enjoy watching a wizard at work - no intention to study the game, just wanted to watch him do his thing. It was amazing. It is, still, an amazing game.
But Galaxian is a different game than Donkey Kong. Different skill sets are required. I'm pretty good at Donkey Kong, so my appreciation for its record will always be a bit tempered. I'm average at Galaxian, so my appreciation for its record may be overblown. And that's why, this is my opinion.
Good one. Games like Galaxian and Mappy are very fast paced, require very skilled movement, and can be extremely overwhelming. For Donkey Kong, it's all about point pressing. Though I'm not very good at Donkey Kong (I really don't play the game at all)and I respect the record, the action on screen is not as insane as Mappy or Galaxian, which continues to get harder and harder the further along you advance. Correct me if I'm wrong, Donkey Kong's difficulty tops out at around Loop 5.
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I know my opinion is biased, but I would have to say that Greg Bond's 1.277M point game of Mappy is tougher to beat.
Being a pretty good Mappy player I was always impressed with Gregs 1.2m score but after seeing the famous 1m point MAME performance That record is a lot less impressive. There are tales of 20 million point games done overseas and I see no reason not to believe in those.
Deans 1.2m DK score is among the most prestigious scores for sure, as is Arts Galaxian. Tony Temples TGTS Missile Command score is pretty damn impressive too. Georges DK3 score also out there. Most of the major arcade scores are at a level now that it requires a true mastery of the game to even come close to it and I personally enjoy watching almost any game played at that level (Dark Tower and The Glob are excluded for obvious reasons) 8)
As far as the OP's question, all three of these games have scores so high and so specialized I really doubt anyone will even get all three. We may again see DK (arcade) and DK Jr held by one person but I just dont think anyone will put what it takes to get the DK3 score. We were just talking about DK3 last night, I enjoyed the few practice games I got in and am looking forward to getting a little better before BOTA 3.
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Yeah, Donkey Kong's difficulty tops at Stage 5. However, the "point press" factor changes everything. The game itself isn't very hard, but when you point press, you decide the difficulty of the game. And another aspect that can make Donkey Kong hard is the randomness (which is not really a "skill" thing, but if you take into consideration that "not getting pissed off" is a skill, then you have to have a lot of skills to face the randomness!)
And I don't think it's accurate to determine the difficulty of a game based on the fast-paced action of the game. Another example is Donkey Kong Jr. Although it's a fairly easy game and slow game, it can be very hard in term of strategy when you really try to point press as hard as possible.
I personally think that for every game (except patternable games like Pac-Man), the player decide the difficulty of the game. Correct my maths if I'm wrong!
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20 million points in Mappy? I'll believe it when it see it.
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Mappy is extraordinarily popular overseas. Goro's likeness still appears like Pac-Man does here on lots of random shit. I believe Mappy marathons happened over there.
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You're right. I have read that Mappy is much more popular outside the US. For me I like the thrill of fast paced games with quick reactions needed to succeed.
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I guess in order to speak on this with real authority, one would need to have significant experience *as a proficient player* with all of the games that would be under contention for "toughest record."
Since I don't personally have that, I went with a more objective measure: the main reason that I cite Dean's score as the toughest is simply that it has the most "context" of any record due to the game having more competition than any other (by far).
Only on DK do you have dozens of players pushing the game as hard as they can, for years, all playing fairly regularly, and yet Dean's score is significantly higher than the 3 (very tightly-spaced scores) directly below it, which are themselves significantly ahead of much of the top 20.
If the competition on other titles were as intense and as incentivized as DK is, where people specialized at them over a long-term period, I have to wonder what kind of scores we would start to see on Mappy, Galaxian, et al. We have that kind of specializing in DK, yet there isn't even a contender for the next 1.2.
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I know my opinion is biased, but I would have to say that Greg Bond's 1.277M point game of Mappy is tougher to beat.
Being a pretty good Mappy player I was always impressed with Gregs 1.2m score but after seeing the famous 1m point MAME performance That record is a lot less impressive. There are tales of 20 million point games done overseas and I see no reason not to believe in those.
Here's links to video of the famous 1M point Mappy MAME performance (in 5 parts). Level 50, 1,075,810, No Deaths. Complete mastery.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxK-_TZnDgc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxK-_TZnDgc)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHAfjDdV3V8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHAfjDdV3V8)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSPmOtPK52o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSPmOtPK52o)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtbNYj2mrws (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtbNYj2mrws)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8ixgSMaQZY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8ixgSMaQZY)
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Mappy is extraordinarily popular overseas. Goro's likeness still appears like Pac-Man does here on lots of random shit. I believe Mappy marathons happened over there.
I think "overseas" just means Japan, right? I know it was very popular in Japan and left a legacy there, but I've never heard of it being that popular in any other countries.
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Yeah Japan.
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Here's links to video of the famous 1M point Mappy MAME performance (in 5 parts). Level 50, 1,075,810, No Deaths. Complete mastery.
I Kreygasmed before Part 1 was even over.
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Here's links to video of the famous 1M point Mappy MAME performance (in 5 parts). Level 50, 1,075,810, No Deaths. Complete mastery.
I Kreygasmed before Part 1 was even over.
Indeed, that replay is craze amaze. Apparently someone brought this recording to the attention of Greg Bond and he seemed to think it was done on an easier romset, saying something like, "I could easily get a million on my first man on that romset."
Now, I don't really know Mappy, and Greg is one of the nicest CAGers around, but to me, his response is typical of CAGers who have put entirely too much stock in TG records as actual World records. Suck it up Greg, there's a Japanese Mappy player who is probably better than you, deal with it, or better yet, embrace it.
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In all fairness though, Greg's likely played more Mappy than any other US resident that we know of. I don't know the game well enough to comment on any specifics but as you mentioned, Greg is a stand up guy and I've never seen any sour grapes from him at all when it comes to gaming and appreciating other performances so I really don't know.
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Greg is correct at least to the extent that it's not the same ROMset played in the US, but rather the original Japanese version. (Proof is at 12:45 on the last part, where Goro is called "Nyamco"). Is the Japanese version easier? I don't know.
It's also worth mentioning that we know very little about that video, the player, etc.
For all we know, this performance was cut together from save states or involves some form of tool assistance. We really can't know without the original INP. If the INP is on that ReplayBurners site I can't find it.
I have to say, my instinct is that the gameplay is almost inhumanly perfect. Throw in a death or some botched bonus stages or something and I would say "okay, this is legit, he's just really good," but when a performance is flawless from first to last board, I can't look at it without at least some skepticism.
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Greg is correct at least to the extent that it's not the same ROMset played in the US, but rather the original Japanese version. (Proof is at 12:45 on the last part, where Goro is called "Nyamco"). Is the Japanese version easier? I don't know.
It's also worth mentioning that we know very little about that video, the player, etc.
For all we know, this performance was cut together from save states or involves some form of tool assistance. We really can't know without the original INP. If the INP is on that ReplayBurners site I can't find it.
I have to say, my instinct is that the gameplay is almost inhumanly perfect. Throw in a death or some botched bonus stages or something and I would say "okay, this is legit, he's just really good," but when a performance is flawless from first to last board, I can't look at it without at least some skepticism.
I was reviewing the Mappy video George posted and compared it to a brief test game I played on MAME and I can tell you that the YouTube performance was done on Difficulty A. Here is the proof. In Round 1, I timed how long it takes from when the stage music begins to the Hurry alarm. In Difficulty A it takes about 84 seconds and in Difficulty B it's 72 seconds. The Hurry alarm comes sooner on harder settings. Also there are differences in the number of enemies for each stage across different difficulty levels. The first difference in number of enemies per stage across Difficulties A and B is Stage 10. On Difficulty A, there are 5 Meowkies and 1 Goro, as seen in the video, while in B, it's 6 Meowkies and 1 Goro. I can understand why Greg is skeptical, the game was done on easy settings. I have played Mappy enough to know that some techniques that I use in Difficulty A, do not work in Difficulty B.
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Chris, I agree with your comment. The performance looked too polished. I don't care how good you are in a game, you're going to fuck up a lot, even if it does not result in a loss of life.
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Yeah, I saw a list of Japanese arcade scores from Gamest magazine that listed a 20m Mappy score. Problem is there were a lot of other questionable scores in the list. One that comes to mind was a 90k Pole Position score, so who knows.
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Didn't think about that but its really not that hard to splice together a bunch of save state replays you save locally via twitch and make it look like you did a single"perfect" game. I practiced mappy one night and got to 300k without dying because i kept trying the boards to clear it without dying to practice. If I put all that together it would look like I got 300k on my first man.
When you really think about it 50 rounds in Mappy even on Easy is hard to fathom you don't make ONE mistake or error or have one set of mice that don't cooperate and kill you. It's very easy to splice a video from "screen start" and make it look like you had this "perfect" run which sucks if that is what someone did. He may very well be a great Mappy player because the skill was there but to never make a single error for over an hour on such a fast paced game seems odd. Guess people could say the same for Georges Q-Bert run where he went several hours before his first death but it just seems so unlikely and Georges was camcordered too.
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For all we know, this performance was cut together from save states or involves some form of tool assistance. We really can't know without the original INP. If the INP is on that ReplayBurners site I can't find it.
The original INP file is attached. It is a MAME .78 replay, but it will play back fine in WolfMAME .78 which you can download at http://wolfmame.marpirc.net/wolfmameplus-078.zip (http://wolfmame.marpirc.net/wolfmameplus-078.zip)
You'll need both the mappy and mappyj romsets to play it back as it is a mappyj replay. As others have commented, this is on the Japanese romset and on difficulty Rank A. This isn't suprising since it's a Japanese replay and Rank A is default settings, and Japanese players usually use default settings.
I don't know much about the background of the recording and whether it might have been tool asissted or not. Some of the Japanese members (or GEMANT) on MARP might know more about its origin and authenticity. I first saw it in 2004 on a now defunct Japanese replay site. Here were a few comments on the site (translated from Japanese) regarding the replay:
Post #1
Mappy no mistake 50Round
MAME 32Plus!0.78
My friend did it for me.
Post#2
The sophistication of the feel of the cat leading the way, including outside of the screen, the way it avoids 6000x2... It is impeccable in every way. I will make it my family treasure.
Post#3
Too good to be true.
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I asked GHEMANT from MARP about the Mappy replay and if it was legit. GHEMANT is very knowledgable of the Japanese arcade scene and I trust his judgement on the Japanese scene highly. He said that Afterburners has only legal replays (no TAS), so the replay is legitimate.
-George
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Well then. I'm extremely impressed. I will make it my family treasure.
It would be cool to see what Bondo could do on "A" difficulty. And I guess his criticism of this game was technically correct. :)