Donkey Kong Forum
General Donkey Kong Discussion => General Donkey Kong Discussion => Topic started by: ChrisP on August 04, 2013, 10:04:34 pm
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I originally wrote this for the high score forum, but I'm not sure it goes there because it's sorta bigger in scope than just submissions. So I'll just post it here!
Some questions are being raised about Donkey Kong PCB hardware and ROM sets, what's valid and what isn't, etc., so here are some things I've learned over the past couple of years after a butt-ton of research on KLOV, etc.
There are THREE different Donkey Kong board sets: TKG-2, TKG-3, and TKG-4, and TWO different ROM sets.
The "TKG" numbers refer to the part numbers of the PCB sets, not to the ROM revision (which have no official name that I'm aware of, other than the MAME nomenclature "Set 1" and "Set 2").
There are, as far as I've been able to find, only those TWO ROM sets in the US, Japan had three, for five total.
The board set TKG part numbers have come to be semi-synonymous with the ROM revisions because of the semi-reliable correlation between the hardware and the software. People just use the PCB part number for simplicity and lack of a better term.
TKG-2s are actually not Donkey Kong boards at all. They're Radarscope boards that were hand-converted at the factory to DK, with "TKG-2" stickers over the original "TRS" part numbers. But I'm sure you all know THAT story by now.
Only 3,000 of these TKG-2s existed, and most are probably gone now. They would have shipped with the original code ("US Set 2" in MAME). But they will probably never be an issue as far as submissions are concerned. (And if somebody shows up with a working one of those, call me any time day or night. I will have cash in hand. ;D )
The TKG-3 boards were the first DKs that were NOT Radarscope conversions. They also would have shipped with the original code (US Set 2).
The TKG-4s were the newer, streamlined 2-board sets that Nintendo put into production as soon as DK started taking off in the arcades. These are found in the vast majority of all DK uprights produced. All TKG-4 boardsets shipped with the updated ROM code (US Set 1). So unless somebody "downgraded" their board to the original code, these will always be legit.
The TKG-2 and TKG-3 boardsets are not so simple. Some will have the older "Set 2" ROM code, some will have the newer "Set 1" code.
The updated ROMs were made available for purchase in December 1981 to any operator with a TKG-2 or 3. Nowadays, of course, anybody could burn a set. So any of those boards MAY OR MAY NOT have been updated to the newer code anytime between BITD (in the field by an arcade operator), up to this very moment (by a collector). The hardware will not show this.
The question of how cocktail scores should be handled was recently raised, so here's how that works: ALL non-fullsize DK machines (the cocktails and cabarets) used the TKG-3 board set. The TKG-4 two-board set will not fit in a cocktail or cabaret machine, so Nintendo kept using the 4-board for the odd-sized cabs, all the way to the end of production.
What this means though is that cocktails/cabarets produced later in the run, while containing TKG-3 boardsets, DID ship from the factory with the updated ROM code, and are legit.
Those that shipped with the updated ROM are TKG-3-7s. The older ones, which shipped with the original ROM, are TKG-3-6. But again, any TKG-3-6 COULD have been manually updated at any point between then and now, so a "-6" on the PCB doesn't necessarily rule out an updated ROM.
In other words, you can't tell anything just from looking at PCBs. TKG-3 boardsets should NOT be disqualified just because they're TKG-3 boardsets, because many of them either shipped, or were updated with, the updated ROM code. The TKG-4 requirement is an error in TG's rules (one that we should not inherit).
So what to do?
I've mentioned this before, but there is a simple way to differentiate the old ROMset from the updated set, and it's a lot easier than dissecting gameplay for use of the ladder cheat or looking at the physical hardware.
The title screen on the original ROM set says "(C) Nintendo 1981."
The updated set says "(C) 1981 Nintendo of America Inc."
It's really that simple.
So, just look at the title screen and you can see which version of the ROM is running (assuming that the owner hasn't hacked it, which takes things into a realm that we can't do anything about, other than to watch the game for oddities).
The DK running on the Braze kits (high score save, Foundry, and D2K) adds code for FREEPLAY and high score save, but is otherwise untouched and runs identically to the updated ROMs that shipped with the TKG-4s. Jeff Kulczycki would not have modified the actual gameplay code without making it known, would have had no reason to (and every reason NOT to), and after years in the field, nobody has been able to provide evidence of any gameplay differences. If these aren't legit, I can't imagine how.
Also, on the 60-in-1s, and possibly some other multiboards, the title screen says "(C) 1981". No "Nintendo of America Ltd." Otherwise, they appear to run the "Set 1" code, and (again) after years in the field, there is no evidence that anything is amiss, other than imperfect audio emulation.
To sum up...
GAME CODE-------------------------------
Original code (MAME: "US Set 2"):
Ladder cheat possible. Title screen: "(C) Nintendo 1981."
Updated code (MAME: "US Set 1"):
Ladder cheat patched. Title screen: "(C) 1981 Nintendo of America Inc."
HARDWARE--------------------------------
TKG-2: 4-board set Radarscope conversion.
Shipped with original code (US Set 2).
ROMs might have been upgraded after shipment.
TKG-3-6: 4-board set, second run of uprights and cocktails/cabarets.
Shipped with original code (US Set 2).
ROMs might have been upgraded after shipment.
TKG-3-7: 4-board set, third run of cocktails/cabarets.
Shipped with updated code (US Set 1).
TKG-4: 2-board set, third run of uprights.
Shipped with updated code (US Set 1).
Multiboards: There are many, but the most common 60-in-1 that everybody has seen in arcades, etc. is a JAMMA PCB that utilizes drivers written for MAME (as most multiboards do). These appear to use the "Set 1" code for Donkey Kong, except for the removal of "Nintendo of America Ltd." from the title screen.
Braze kits (HS save, Foundry, D2K): Daughtercard that plugs into Z80 slot on a TKG-3 or TKG-4 board. These kits bypass whatever ROMs are installed on the PCB and contain "Set 1" DK code, except additions for FREEPLAY and high score save.
So there you have it.
And for anyone who has not seen the famous "service bulletin," check out the attachment. (Re the header: "LMC" was a company that distributed games for Nintendo.)
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Awesome. I love to see the back stories on this kind of stuff. Now break down the bootlegs/clones! ;D
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Wow, this is awesome! This is what I am talking about right here. This is the good stuff, the stuff that dreams are made of. Thank you, Chris, for your thorough analysis, just the kind of thing I was hoping to learn in the midst of these discussions. :)
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Did you find any information on the 'Hard' roms? I know there are more that one example of these out there so I doubt it was just some hacker messing around. There is a similar set for DKJR That I am still trying to get my hands on.
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I am wondering what to do if someone ever submits a score with a TKG-3-7, or a TKG-3-6 with an updated Roms. If US Set 1 is used then there is just an issue with hardware. Were the 4 board sets ran with the same processor as the 2 board set? Why the 2 extra boards?
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I am wondering what to do if someone ever submits a score with a TKG-3-7, or a TKG-3-6 with an updated Roms. If US Set 1 is used then there is just an issue with hardware. Were the 4 board sets ran with the same processor as the 2 board set? Why the 2 extra boards?
Yes, same processor. My guess is that the 4-board sets were made to fit in cocktail machines as that is where you usually see them. They have a much smaller footprint.
A 2-board set will not fit into the small space of a nintendo cocktail.
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They were Radarscope conversion PCBs prior to further modification and Radarscope was a 4 board set.
Is this for the HS board on DKF? If the reissue PCB and 60-1s are allowed then I would think the only issue is utilization of the top of the ladder cheat and basically any ROMS are par for the course.
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I would think the only issue is utilization of the top of the ladder cheat and basically any ROMS are par for the course.
This makes no sense to me. ANY ROMS are par for the course? What are you talking about? I don't have much of an opinion about differences in hardware, but I DO know that we should all be playing on the same software. Not any rom, but only ONE rom should be allowed and that is US Set 1.
I also cringe whenever I see people mention the ladder cheat. People really need to be aware that it IS possible to hang onto the top of a ladder in US Set 1 and survive an oncoming barrel if it rolls on by over your head. The difference is the probability of this happening -- instead of 100% it's more like 25%. But, this means that you CANNOT invalidate any attempt simply because you see someone survive this situation.
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This makes no sense to me. ANY ROMS are par for the course? What are you talking about? I don't have much of an opinion about differences in hardware, but I DO know that we should all be playing on the same software. Not any rom, but only ONE rom should be allowed and that is US Set 1.
I was making a joke.
I also cringe whenever I see people mention the ladder cheat. People really need to be aware that it IS possible to hang onto the top of a ladder in US Set 1 and survive an oncoming barrel if it rolls on by over your head. The difference is the probability of this happening -- instead of 100% it's more like 25%. But, this means that you CANNOT invalidate any attempt simply because you see someone survive this situation.
Obviously.
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I know, there's games when I stupidly get caught and have to let a barrel roll over me on the ladder and I immediatley think that someone is going to think a have an old ROM Set.
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Only US Set 1 for the rom. I just had a question about the other hardware. I don't expect to get such a submission but I am curious.
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From an electronics standpoint, the 2-board is a much more simple, stable, streamlined configuration than the 4-board, and from a materials standpoint, would have to have been cheaper to produce.
My speculation: At the outset, Nintendo was just going with what they had, but when they realized that the game was actually a hit and that they'd have to massively scale up on the production end, they probably started asking questions about how to make things cheaper and more efficient and shopped the schematics around to electronics companies to make them a better boardset.
Note that this is also around the time that Nintendo started moving from sturdy plywood cabinets to the crappy particle board cabs.
Lowering your "cost per unit" becomes increasingly important the more units you're shipping.
Ken asked a good question about this "hard" version that's been seen here and there. I'd forgotten about that. I have definitely heard of this one before, but I know absolutely nothing about it and have never seen it discussed anywhere outside of CAG circles (that is, no collector on KLOV ever seems to have run into one). It's also not MAME'd. No clue. Somebody needs to crack open one of those machines and report what they find.
As for the hard version of Junior, I know you're looking for that. ;D Considering that it might be the only P-kit left in the world and I don't feel 100% good about the mail, I think I would feel best about it if I just brought it with me to the KO3 and had somebody dump it for us while I'm there. (I also don't want to make you the one responsible for something bad happening to it! That would be awkward.)
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Maybe Estel can convince Dock Mac at Galloping Ghost to dump the 'Hard' DK roms and get them to the MAME programmers, since GG has a 'hard' version out on their floor.
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Thanks for the info ! I learned alot .
I was thinking of getting my DK JR PCB , Double Donkey Konged , I guess people don't trust them as authentic game play .
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I don't think it was mentioned , but don't forget about the ArcadeSD board . I feel as far as emulation goes , this is the most accurate way to play DK .
Clay said the ArcadeSD is NOT running MAME , or any OS program . Thats why when you turn it on , its instantly on like a real PCB , it doesn't have to boot up like a computer does .
Clay also said theres no Lag at all .
So from my experience of different computers running MAME differently , which can cause the game to slow down , make it more easier , and that in turn makes every ones DK experience slightly different , the ArcadeSD is a solid way of knowing the game is being emulated the best it can .
So I think the ArcadeSD is the top alternative to a real DK PCB , even over a PC running MAME , because all PC's behave differently , but all ArcadeSD's behave the same .
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Thanks for the info ! I learned alot .
I was thinking of getting my DK JR PCB , Double Donkey Konged , I guess people don't trust them as authentic game play .
I believe the HSL accepts scores from both the D2K kits and the Double DK boards, I may be wrong. If I remember correctly those "other rules" were just for TG. Although it is not directly mentioned in the "submission rules" thread https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=365.0, (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=365.0,) I believe these are the "rules"; perhaps this is a good time to clarify some of these things. Another example of an unstated rule is the "single credit rule", I am nearly certain that the DKF HSL does not care about how many credits are on the cab either...
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So I think the ArcadeSD is the top alternative to a real DK PCB , even over a PC running MAME , because all PC's behave differently , but all ArcadeSD's behave the same .
While this is true, it doesn't necessarily make the ArcadeSD is more precise than MAME (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuracy_and_precision (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuracy_and_precision)). I've never played on one before so I can't say for sure, but I've played on some 60-in-1's that have a very slight (but noticeable) lag.
For record submitting purposes (outside of the HSL here), I'd suggest getting the original PCB. If just for fun, then yeah anything will do.
Ethan's post made me realize that the rules here contradict themselves:
"All Arcade submissions are to be done on an original TKG-4 DK machine."
then
"Scores that were achieved on a 3 in 1 machine or multi-pcb will be acceptable if..."
I'm pretty sure some of the arcade scores on the list are on multicades, so maybe edit the first rule?
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I'm pretty sure some of the arcade scores on the list are on multicades, so maybe edit the first rule?
I may be mistaken, but I believe Jeremy was/is working on a rewrite of the list submission rules.
I can assure you, however, that I am not an active participant in that project. :)
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So I think the ArcadeSD is the top alternative to a real DK PCB , even over a PC running MAME , because all PC's behave differently , but all ArcadeSD's behave the same .
While this is true, it doesn't necessarily make the ArcadeSD is more precise than MAME (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuracy_and_precision (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accuracy_and_precision)). I've never played on one before so I can't say for sure, but I've played on some 60-in-1's that have a very slight (but noticeable) lag.
For record submitting purposes (outside of the HSL here), I'd suggest getting the original PCB. If just for fun, then yeah anything will do.
Ethan's post made me realize that the rules here contradict themselves:
"All Arcade submissions are to be done on an original TKG-4 DK machine."
then
"Scores that were achieved on a 3 in 1 machine or multi-pcb will be acceptable if..."
I'm pretty sure some of the arcade scores on the list are on multicades, so maybe edit the first rule?
Yeah I'm not saying MAME isn't precise , the program itself is , I'm saying the "different computers" we all use to run it are not all precise/the same . Some computers might struggle a little , max out CPU , other programs might be running in the back ground like Anti virus ........theres many different setups , hardware and software .
I just discovered this because I realized different versions of MAME run differently on my computer . 0.90 runs slower because it very often maxes out my CPU , so it feels easier .
Where as all ArcadeSD boards are exactly the same just like original DK pcb's , so they all react and feel the exact same .
So its not MAME's fault .
Its like every PC game . They can run slightly different because of the endless different hardware and software setups .
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Yeah I'm not saying MAME isn't precise , the program itself is , I'm saying the "different computers" we all use to run it are not all precise/the same . Some computers might struggle a little , max out CPU , other programs might be running in the back ground like Anti virus ........theres many different setups , hardware and software .
I just discovered this because I realized different versions of MAME run differently on my computer . 0.90 runs slower because it very often maxes out my CPU , so it feels easier .
Where as all ArcadeSD boards are exactly the same just like original DK pcb's , so they all react and feel the exact same .
So its not MAME's fault .
Its like every PC game . They can run slightly different because of the endless different hardware and software setups .
If MAME is running at 100%, then it should be the same regardless of setup. MAME won't run "too fast" because it throttles on the frame speed. MAME can run too slow, but you can see this in the recorded speed that is stored in the WolfMAME files. Everybody should be able to easily get a 99.9% recorded speed in DK for on any PC, if not 99.99% This is why there is a "minimum recorded speed" rule for all MAME recordings.
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I'm pretty sure some of the arcade scores on the list are on multicades, so maybe edit the first rule?
I may be mistaken, but I believe Jeremy was/is working on a rewrite of the list submission rules.
I can assure you, however, that I am not an active participant in that project. :)
This is true. Right now I'm working on clarifying and condensing the rules list. It won't be changed until the community has a chance to review it.
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I have some issues with DDK.
One problem is that (unlike a D2K kit) the conversion entails permanent physical alterations to an otherwise working Junior board, which is not good on a preservation level. The alterations may be reversible, but probably not by anyone except Mike's Arcade, since they don't make the steps public. It's not technically destructive, but it is a disfigurement.
Sound: I can't speak for anyone else and their preferences, but I couldn't live with the sound changes. Jumpman's running and jumping sounds are iconic, they're part of the game. Junior sounds... that just isn't right on DK!
Price: At $160 for the conversion, the surgery costs almost as much as simply buying a DK board, maybe even more if you can find a deal.
Options: if you just want to easily switch games, there are other non-invasive ways to accomplish that, like the Nintendo PCB switcher that Vector Labs makes. You could even just go with a 60-in-1 if switching games easily is the main priority. Even in their raw original form, it only takes a few minutes to swap a DK and a Junior board.
Lastly, I can't find the link right now (I will look later), but it was determined at one point that (unlike the D2K kit), there actually IS at least one confirmed difference in the gameplay when DK is played on Junior hardware. Specifically it has to do with the timer ticking at different rates. You can live slightly longer at the "000" before dying, for one thing.
So I'd be cautious about DDK! It's one thing for a collector, or an arcade operator, to go that route, but for competition it might be a problem. It certainly was on at least one occasion...
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If "we" allow multicades, then certainly "we" should allow D2K kits and DDK. To me:
original PCB >= D2K >= DDK > MAME > Triple DK > multicades >> altered ROM sets
I have no scientific basis for that statement, but just my general impression from playing them all. We in quotes, because I don't want to be the one making these decisions!
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For the record, I would not oppose acceptance of DDK scores, even if there might be tiny differences. I'm okay with a "close enough" philosophy on this stuff, because if a problem isn't visible to the naked eye of experienced players, it really can't have THAT much of an effect on the player's ability to get the score they get. There are surely subtleties among these tens of thousands of machines, PCs, MAME versions, ROMsets, etc. that we don't even know about yet, and ways of hacking/cheating that we haven't imagined, so being really strict about everything in unnecessarily burdensome when there are larger issues that we can do nothing about.
In other words, we shouldn't necessarily keep eighteen locks on the barn door when the horse can just jump right out the window!
Any non-live performance on a machine without a known chain of custody is always going to be problematic. It's the price we pay for being able to compete long distance.
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One problem is that (unlike a D2K kit) the conversion entails permanent physical alterations to an otherwise working Junior board, which is not good on a preservation level. The alterations may be reversible, but probably not by anyone except Mike's Arcade, since they don't make the steps public. It's not technically destructive, but it is a disfigurement.
I didn't know they did all that to a DK JR board . I thought it was just plugging in a daughter card into the Z80 socket and swapping out some roms .
I'm all about preservation too , I'm not getting it done now . I'll just pick up a DK board . They've just been so much harder to find these days .
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Yeah, they mess with the board itself! That's why you actually have to send your board to them. If it were just a kit in the Z80 socket you'd buy the kit and install it yourself.
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I have a question about different rom versions of DK ,
I just noticed the 60n1 Donkey Kong only says "1981" at the title screen . DK is VERY hard on the 60n1 . The flame guys are way more aggressive .
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I consistently have better averages on the 60-1 than on mame but that's me.
I believe all they did was edit out the copyright
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Great stuff in here. I scored a DK machine off CL about a month ago and wondered what run/how old it was. Just looked inside the coin door, saw the 2 board setup and knew (from this thread) it was a TKG-4. I stuck my phone in to take a pic off the chip just to be sure.
Side note - I need to clean that thing out. The inside is quite dusty.
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found this eairlier
http://tcrf.net/Donkey_Kong_(Arcade) (http://tcrf.net/Donkey_Kong_(Arcade))
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Wow, lots of interesting facts in there.
Several very subtle things I never would have noticed. And a very obvious thing that I never noticed! (The blue "TM" is there in the US version, but not DK Japan! I was never conscious of that...)
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Hi can any one tell me what version this pcb board is and if it is at all donkey kong (http://).....
Well found out it is a Donkey kong 3 board thought it looked wierd please correct me if i am wrong.
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DK3 for sure.
If you want to see for yourself, open the dkong3.zip for MAME, you'll see the ROMs match the label stickers on that board.
Also, take those batteries out of there ASAP (if you got it not knowing how long they've been in there). :)
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some 60 in one boards lag. that would cause greater difficulty.
the arcadesd board doesn't lag.
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I have found a Jap version of donkey kong JR on a 4 layer Radar scope Pcb TRS2-03
Is this a rare Pcb ?
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I know the difference between the TKG2s, TKG3s and TKG4s. I just didn't know if the # after TKG-4-## made the boards different from one another or is just another series with the same parts and code. Example: TKG-4-11-CPU (or video), TKG4-12-CPU, TKG4-13-CPU and so on. I've seen some different boards on eBay and wondered if you could match up a TKG-4-11-CPU with and TKG-4-XX-Video board successfully.
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I responded to you in the shoutbox this morning, but just to keep it in the thread, CPU boards are cross-compatible with VIDEO boards, so long as both are from the 2-board stack. The number after TKG-4 doesn't seem to make any difference.
I don't know how the suffixes change things, but the -14s seem to be the most common. It's likely to be something subtle having to do with the board layout or the ICs. At any rate, the CPU/VIDEOs can be mix/matched and I have actually seen it mentioned on KLOV at some point.
The same "new" Set 1/Nintendo of America ROMset was on all of the 2-boards, regardless of the suffix.
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Thanks Chris. I just didn't want to set off a smoke alarm.
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Does anyone know if it's possible to play the dk wild barrel hack on an arcade pcb? I'm not sure if it is simple as burning the roms and swapping them out on the board? I have no idea why I want to play that version I have enough trouble as it is. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
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Does anyone know if it's possible to play the dk wild barrel hack on an arcade pcb? I'm not sure if it is simple as burning the roms and swapping them out on the board? I have no idea why I want to play that version I have enough trouble as it is. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
This makes me so happy.
I'd imagine programming new roms with the changed code would work.
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Any DK hack will be plug-and-play on a DK PCB if it fits onto the ROM chips. If it works in MAME, it'll work on a board.
D2K is a little different in that the program uses more space, and also needs an NVRAM chip to save high scores, so that's done with a daughter card with a 64KB EEPROM.
But the wild barrel hack, Japanese version, or whatever custom thing you want, will play just fine on a DK PCB. The board doesn't checksum the code and refuse to run if it doesn't match or anything like that. Later arcade games did that sort of thing, but a DK will just run whatever is on the chips.
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I looked into the wild barrel conversion for a pcb. It's a 3 EPROMs swap 5a 5b 5e. I will give it a try to see why everyone hates it.
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Does anyone have a DK board for sale. Mine is on the fritz and I need a new one to train for the kong off. I figured I would come here before I go elsewhere. Thanks in advance for the help.
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i got an interesting response to a email i sent Jeff Kulczycki the maker of the save kits and D2K ,
I ask him "Hi Sir How are you
I have a question, I currently have a DK save kit bought off Mikesarcade works good.
I'm interested in setting record`s ( serious stuff lol ) on my dk cab.
I was told (a little bird told me) your DK2 kit when use to play the original Donkey Kong bypass the rom`s on the DK pcb and are stored on the eeprom on the kit? is this true?
if so well ok that good to know i guess,
my main qustion is the DK save kit (no d2k instal) i bought off Mikesarcade is it the same?
I mean it only a save kit and I know can be converted to D2K but im not interested in that.
I like to know are there DK rom`s stored on the kit and use to run on the board and bypass the rom`s on the DK pcb?"
His answer was
Robert,
True. Both the DK kit and D2K kit will bypass the PCB ROMs and run the off of the EEPROM on the kits.
Jeff
So is this a good thing or bad ? i dont like the idea that all rom`s are on the kit :(
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Methinks as long as the PCB clock is not being bypassed, there should be no difference in the gameplay.
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Hey all, I just got a Braze HSS kit - no remix, deranged or any of that other stuff - just the simple HSS w/ free play and attract mode sound. It seemed to be running slightly faster than I'm used to, and with a bit more difficulty. Now, this kit is running the rom code off the daughterboard, from my understanding. And, it seemed to be running slightly faster, and with a bit more gameplay difficulty.
So, I pulled an excerpt of captured L5-1 start, and compared this to L5-1 start from 2 days ago, before putting this kit it, when my board was running a remix kit (which is supposed to be running from original roms). Now, I don't believe the difference that I felt and then documented via video excerpts is due to the kits in any way. I am speculating that it has more to do with the TKG4-** version of the code.
I would love to hear from the experts and other enthusiasts who have ever done any comparative gameplay between the board sets. Below is what we know, and some additional "what I believe"
What we know
TKG2 and TKG-3-6 (prior to patching) - original code with ladder cheat
TKG-3-7 (and any patched earlier sets) - "speed up" patch. We know it removed the ladder cheat. We joke that it sped up the transition of quarters from players' pockets to ops' coffers.
TKG4-11 - first 2-board revision, jumpman has "flat" running and climbing sounds
TKG4-12 thru -14 - "flat" running and climbing sounds are corrected, and again "warble" like they did on TKG-2/3 sets
What I know
Comparing L5-1 of TKG4-11 to L5-1 of Braze HSS kit, from jumpman's appearance on the screen to ascending the first short ladder and the first frame of standing on girder 2, the Braze HSS kit is 6 frames faster.
-I will provide video, but now want to put more samples together from other levels, to make a video that is more than 6 seconds. :P
What I believe
The "speed up" patch did not only fix the ladder cheat, but also provided a slight speed increase. I notice it when going from my blue cab (TKG4-11 native code) to my red cab (unpatched TKG3-6). The unpatched TKG3-6 is a hair slower.
Subsequent releases of the TKG4 code introduced additional gameplay modifications. Other things I noticed, playing the Braze HSS kit:
-L3 wild barrels are actually hard. I never knew what the hoopla was all about. I hardly ever experience any anomalous wild barrels on TKG4-11 L3-1
-Riviot levels are more difficult. Firefoxes spawn on the left side, from the start, more frequently. The firefoxes are noticeably more aggressive/less friendly (there is a distinction).
So, again, I would love to hear from the rest of you, who would be able to detect these very minor differential nuances. Or, tell me I'm crazy...it's okay, I can take it. BibleThump
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It would be a pretty big upheaval if we suddenly found out that there are ROM and gameplay differences between TKG4-11 and TKG4-14 board sets.
I'm not the best player, but I do have both a TKG4-11 and a TKG4-14 board set and I could at some point try reading out the EPROMs and see if there are any content differences in the ROMs between these boards. My TKG4-11 doesn't have the original stickers on the EPROMs, but looking closely it still has the glue residue where the stickers would have been so it appears that it has it's original chips.
The Remix kit indeed runs the game from the main PCB ROMs. If you plugged the kit in your TKG3-6 board, it would play the original code with the ladder cheat. (If you plugged it into a Japanese PCB, it would play it's original code with ladder cheat, long high score names, Japanese level order. etc..)
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I haven't reread this entire thread so I'm not sure if I'm just repeating information here but I just skimmed through your recent post about getting to the second girder on the barrel screen being slightly faster (6 frames?) from one version to another.
If you play some of the DK hacks that are out there (Big Kong, etc) you will notice that on some Kong games, it takes Mario significantly longer to climb up and down ladders than on DK US Set 1. It makes rivet screens slightly harder on those games, for example.
I wonder if you can do some additional testing on the two versions where you noticed the 6 frames of difference and see if you can isolate whether or not the speed differences are only happening when climbing up and down ladders or not?
Is the whole game speeding up or just Mario? Perhaps compare the position of the leading brown barrel (automatically steers down all ladders until the blue barrel hits the oil can and so they should be taking the same path in both games) or the blue barrel if it's still in play?
Also, when comparing these two paths, was there any difference in how you negotiated the jump over the blue barrel on the first girder? Most of us pause slightly for some unknown number of frames before jumping over this barrel. Or, if you are someone that performs a single horizontal jump over nothing as a method of slowing yourself down then this aspect could be consistent between the two runs. Another factor could be simply how precise was your "cornering" from the first girder to climbing up the ladder? This can affect how many frames your overall path was slightly.
Keep us posted on this!
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Are you able to dump the game roms from your TKG4-14 board set? I've got a set of spare roms, I think it's worth burning the TKG4-14 set and doing some further testing without the HSS kit in place, but with the "final revision".
Then again, that might not be empirical, because there could also be some logic level changes that affect speed, gameplay, etc. But, I think it's worth a look.
I suggest that, regardless of the outcome, TKG4-** is still the standard, whether it's -11 or -14. There is the lore within the community that the Fun Spot (I think it's Fun Spot?) board is harder, and the wild barrels are wilder, but plenty of the experts here have done well on that board. I don't think this should change anything in that regard, and my intent isn't to stir the pot, just to satisfy a curiosity.
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The hardware that I have isn't able to directly read 24 pin EPROMs (it supports 28 pin EPROMs) but with a bit of MacGyvering I could build a 24 to 28 pin adapter and then read out the EPROMs. I'll try to find time to do that in the next week and read out the contents of the roms from both my TKG4-11 and TKG4-14. From there it wouldn't be too much trouble to compare them to see if any bytes are different from each other or send the files them to you.
If there is an actual visible difference in gameplay - that something takes X frames to happen with one ROM set and Y frames to happen with another ROM using the *same* PCB.. then there's definitely something worth investigating going on.
Different PCBs have a *tiny* bit of variation in speed because the clock crystals vary from batch to batch. But this would not account for something huge like 6 frames of difference to reach a ladder... well, actually it shouldn't make a difference in frames at all - it'd be the frames themselves that are slightly shorter or longer from PCB to PCB.
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If you could send the TKG4-14 dumps, that would be great!
This was just a single comparison based on a hunch and a feel, I don't want to draw conclusions just yet. I am going to try to extract more comparisons, and eliminate any potential for human influence on the results, this weekend, using the two sources I have (TKG4-11 native and Braze HSS kit).
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I created a new thread for the video documentation I'm putting together: https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?board=15.0 (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?board=15.0)
Didn't want to over-muddy the waters on this thread.
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Hi there,
I've got the chance to buy a DK TKG3-06 PCB (4 boards) which - as I learned from the first post of this thread - is likely to have romset "US Set 2" installed (the one with the ladder cheat). I'm not very much into PCBs/burning EPROMS and all this hardware stuff but would it be possible for someone with the right equipment to update the romset to "US Set 1" allowing me to use it for score submissions?
Thanks a lot and cheers!
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Hi there,
I've got the chance to buy a DK TKG3-06 PCB (4 boards) which - as I learned from the first post of this thread - is likely to have romset "US Set 2" installed (the one with the ladder cheat). I'm not very much into PCBs/burning EPROMS and all this hardware stuff but would it be possible for someone with the right equipment to update the romset to "US Set 1" allowing me to use it for score submissions?
Thanks a lot and cheers!
Yes, that is entirely possible.
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I can help if needed. But, there is a good possibility that it is "US SET 1" code. It could already be upgraded. Or (someone correct me if I'm wrong), I believe the cocktails continued getting TKG3-06 boards, with US SET 1 code, even after uprights had moved to TKG3-07.
Either way, check the title screen. If it says C 1981 Nintendo of America Inc, then it is US SET 1 code.
If you need help once you get the board, shoot me a PM.
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@Flobeamer1922, YesAffinity
Thanks a lot for your help. Since the seller does only own the board but has no Nintendo cab to test the board for functionality (and to check the title screen) we'll first have to find a solution to use it with a JAMMA test setup (I know, there are adapters available). But it's good to know that in case it does hold the 'wrong' romset I'm able to exchange/re-burn the EPROMs.
It's not that easy to get your hands on a DK board over here in Germany so I'll try to clutch at any straw that comes my way ;)
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not sure what you're getting the board for, but adapting a 4-board stack to JAMMA seems like it might end up costing more than tracking down a 2-board set, even if it's coming from a different country. Also, I would think there's someone closer that could help with the rom replacements if they end up being needed. I'm still happy to help, but just a suggestion, to avoid costs of international shipment.
Mike's Arcade sells DK boards and the adapters for 2-board stacks to JAMMA, and ships internationally. Just a thought. :)
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You're probably right, YesAffinity. When the offer for the TKG3 boardset appeared I did not know that it does provide an edge connector for more easier JAMMA conversion through an inexpensive adapter. My primary goal is to someday own a dedicated Nintendo DK upright but meanwhile this is near impossible if you live in Germany and do not want to spent a fortune. So my fallback option is to get a DK board and install it into a JAMMA cab, which pop up from time to time for reasonable prices.
Thanks for the hint towards Mike's Arcade, I already sent them a request regarding a completed DDK board but have not received an answer, yet.
Nevertheless, shouldn't it be theoretically possible to use a combination of
https://www.mikesarcade.com/cgi-bin/store.pl?sku=DK-EDGE2PIN
and
https://www.mikesarcade.com/cgi-bin/store.pl?sku=NIN2JAMMA
to get a 4-board TKG3 to JAMMA or am I missing something?
BTW, if someone is sitting on a pile of TKG4 boards and desperately wants to get rid of one of those - please, get in touch with me ;)
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Can you do a simple block diagram of how that combination could work? Maybe I'm being dense, and not seeing the easy solution.
How I see it, you would need individual connectors/wiring between the TKG3 board -> all of the DK-EDGE2PIN headers. Then plug NIN2JAMMA onto DK-EDGE2PIN, and JAMMA cab harness onto NIN2JAMMA.
Be aware, you also need NINRAINBOW,
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I know this thread is pretty old, but people were asking about the "hard" rom set and mentioning that they have never seen one in the wild. Are these still elusive? I have a set of these hard roms.
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I know this thread is pretty old, but people were asking about the "hard" rom set and mentioning that they have never seen one in the wild. Are these still elusive? I have a set of these hard roms.
I think Galloping Ghost's DK has the hard ROMs, but I don't know if they found it that way or swapped them after they got it.
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There are, as far as I've been able to find, only those TWO ROM sets in the US, Japan had three, for five total.
Actually, there is at least one more (european) ROM Set:
Very early version with japanese level order, ladder cheat and also Jump Bug(!), however already with the correct "how high can you get" wording (instead of "try") and without the High Score Counter Bug.
This one came with the first TRS / TKG2 Boards in Europe. I am surprised that this version is not implemented in MAME yet over all these years.
Regards,
Ekki