Donkey Kong Forum
General Donkey Kong Discussion => General Donkey Kong Discussion => Topic started by: danman123456 on November 27, 2018, 06:47:44 pm
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So tried this tonight and well it didnt work. Just some questions to make sure I'm doing this right.
1. I go a 44 port crimp edge connector. Labeled on one side 1 - 22 and on the other side A - V
2. Connected Green to Pin 17 on the edge connector.
3. Connected Red to Pin Q on the edge connector (The manual skips G,I,O,Q for some reason).
4. Connected Blue to Pin R on the edge connector
5. Connected Yellow (VSync) to Pin 18 on the edge connector.
6. Connected Black to Pin 22 on edge connector.
6. Connected Red (power) to Pin C on the edge connector.
7. Connected Black (ground power) to Pin A on the edge connector.
Hook it up and I get a red power light on the GBS-8200 but no output on the VGA monitor and my Monitor itself in the cabinet gets alllllll messed up. I get a really greenish looking screen even if I remove the power cables connection from the GBS.
I assume the edge connector is correct and im not mistaking "solder" side on this for "parts" side am I? The Pin 1 Up label on the edge connector appears to line up with the "1" on the board. I'm looking into the cabinet and figure the top right on the side you can "see" (facing outward) is in fact pin 1.
I'm trying to just get any video on my monitor without totally making my installed monitor go to hell. Sorta like what Yesaffinty (Chris) did with his Direct Cap setup using the edge connector.
I'll stream it soon and show people what is happening i'm not really sure why my video looks so bad on my Sanyo simply by plugging in on the edge connector.
Thanks everyone,
Dan
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I've never used the GBS-8200 so I can't say for certain what is going on here... but I am planning on trying it out in the near future to see how/if it handles DK video...
Pins Q & R?? uhh.. ok, if your connector goes from A to V instead of A-Z (skipping G,I,O,Q) like the Nintendo pinout, then Q & R look like they equate to Nintendo's U & V.
The numbered pins are on the top of the DK PCB and the lettered pins are the bottom.
First off, I suspect the GBS-8200 does not handle inverted video so you likely need to get an inverter (if you aren't already doing something to do that) to convert R,G & B into positive video.
Also, I don't know if the GBS-8200 can handle combined Sync or if it requires separate H & V Sync inputs. DK outputs combined Sync (both H & V sync signals are combined into one signal on one wire). Maybe it'd be better to connect HSync to Pin 18, and Vsync to +5V... or the other way around... OR both to Pin 18. Kinda depends what it expects/makes it happy.
The picture on the Nintendo monitor might dim or brighten or shift colors a bit because the signals are going to two devices but I don't expect it'd be all messed up. First thing to suspect a case like that is that the pin connections got mixed up.
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He mentions he didnt need to do anything extra to get this to work. I asked him about the NIN2JAMMA https://www.mikesarcade.com/cgi-bin/store.pl?sku=NIN2JAMMA and if that was necessary but he didnt respond.
If I get the NIN2JAMMA deal it should work if I setup the edge connector properly? I'll post a video of what happens to my screen when i hook this all up later this week. After I get over this freaking bug....
Thanks all,
Dan
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I've used DK PCB -> NIN2JAMMA ->JAMMA harness -> GBS-8200, no problem. The 5-pin and 6-pin input connectors handle csync. On the 6-pin connector, cysnc gets wired to the h.sync pin, nothing gets wired to the v.sync pin.
I'm certain SM is correct, the GBS will not handle inverted video natively.
(page 2, right hand side) https://www.mikesarcade.com/cgi-bin/spies.cgi?action=url&type=pinout&page=Nintendo_Classic.html
Make sure your power supply is good, too. Something in the 9V-12V range is best. Many of us have had problematic results with 5V power supplies.
From what I remember from the pinout on Mike's Arcade
https://www.mikesarcade.com/cgi-bin/spies.cgi?action=url&type=pinout&page=Nintendo_Classic.html
this orientation is basically looking up at the bottom of the 44-pin connector. You can verify by finding your +5V leads, which will be continuous. Whichever end has continuity across the 3rd pin and 4th pin in from the end, is the end with your +5V's. Once you know that, forget the lettering/numbering/whatever on the connector, and just count to find your appropriate pins.
Once you get the basic functionality sorted out, if you want to get more exploratory, there's a great custom firmware for the GBS-8200, which eliminates input lag, allows controlling the GBS via smart phone or other web interfaceable device, and offers a ton of customizations to the output. It is a somewhat advanced mod, tho, and if all you're doing is displaying to the screen strictly for viewing and not for playing, it's probably not of much interest.
https://github.com/ramapcsx2/gbs-control/blob/master/README.md
https://github.com/ramapcsx2/gbs-control
:edit: I see your connecting to the edge connector for +5V power. That's probably okay, but if you have a 9V-12V external power supply to use for testing purposes, that would help rule out +5V power as being a problem.
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I have a 5V Power Supply coming for the unit from Amazon. I'll use that instead of the edge connector. It should be here tomorrow.
Dan
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As mentioned, 5V may be contributing to the problems. I had regular sync dropouts and other anomalies (and others involved with testing of that custom firmware have reported the same), when using a 5V 2A power supply.
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So what wire up some custom config to the 12V power input?
Also anyone use this for trying to setup a direct capture?
http://www.vector-labs.com/index_dk12.html
Dan
As mentioned, 5V may be contributing to the problems. I had regular sync dropouts and other anomalies (and others involved with testing of that custom firmware have reported the same), when using a 5V 2A power supply.
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I got the GBS-8200 connected and working today, no particular issues getting it connected...
I just connected DK's sync to the 'sync' input on the 5 pin connector. I also tried connecting to 'hsync' getting the same results.
Unfortunately, the picture was not always stable. Sometimes it would jump randomly, sometimes it didn't for a while. FYI, my GBS-8200 was only connected to 5V from the power supply. I'll try using 12V another day and see how that goes. I didn't today because I also had another adapter to convert VGA to svideo on the same power cable and that one does *not* accept 12V.
It seems to me that the sync output from DK is not particularly stable or compliant to standards.. Hopefully using 12V stops the jump/jitter/wobble. Results might vary between one DK PCB and another.
Potentially, there should be some way to "fix" the sync signal. I spotted this online :
http://www.arcadeshop.com/i/821/video-sync-cleaner.htm (http://www.arcadeshop.com/i/821/video-sync-cleaner.htm)
I'm actually sure whether this would do the trick or not.
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Sock were the colors all messed up or did they work correctly?
You hook it up to the edge connector?
Thanks,
Dan
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The colors came out just fine. In this case it's the GBS-8200 feeding the VGA to the composite/svideo adapter, which means the signals and syncs have been entirely re-generated so no longer wonky.
The double conversion (240P to VGA, then VGA to 480i) made the final output a bit soft but with some fiddling of the settings on both boards it seemed a bit sharper. I only played with it for a few minutes though. The main issue was the GBS-8200 not being too happy with DK's sync.
The setup I used here was a Mike's Arcade Nin2Jamma connected to the edge connector, GBS-8200 (CGA to VGA) connected to the non-inverted video, then GBS-8100 (VGA to CGA) connected to the GBS-8200 output.
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I tried powering the GBS-8200 with 12 volts instead of 5 volts today. Maybe the screen jumping is less frequent now, maybe not? It still shifts/jumps every now and then randomly but is for the most part stable.
By playing with all the adjustments on both the GBS 8200 and 8100, I was able to get a pretty decent looking svideo output with no more 'shimmer/frizzle'. The only issue is the occasional vertical shifting/jumping.
Maybe adjusting the H & V pots on the DK PCB might improve that - I'll try that another day.
It looks okay for streaming but it's definitely not as sharp as the original RGB. The multiple conversions (inverted to non-inverted, RGB to VGA, VGA to svideo) soften the video a bit.
I'll try taking some photos in the near future - from this and a couple of other video conversion setups I've tried.
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I tried hooking up a few different video conversion devices to see how things compare.\
Here's some photos of what I got on the screen. I used the same Commodore 1080 monitor for all of them.
1st photo: DK RGB connected to an inverter, the inverted RGB output going to the monitor.
2nd photo: DK RGB to inverter, inverted RGB going to an RGB to composite converter from the '80s. This converter uses an MC1377 chip to do the conversion and does not have an svideo output. There doesn't seen to be any issues with sync or color.
3rd photo: DK RGB to inverter, inverted RGB going to an RGB to composite & svideo converter I hand-built in the 90s. This converter uses an AD724 chip to do the conversion. I built this for something else and there is a sync regenerator circuit in it. It works ok but I suspect it might be because of the added sync regeneration...
4th photo: DK RGB to inverter, inverted RGB to GBS 8200 (RGB to VGA converter), VGA then going to GBS 8100 (VGA to RGB/svideo/composite converter), svideo connected to the monitor. Lots of processing and rescaling going on in these steps. The GBS 8200 seems to have issues with the sync and the screen occasionally jumps. The GBS 8100 then generates a new 15Khz interlaced output.. so the end result is 480i instead of 240p and things look softer. It still shows 60fps motion fine on a CRT but I suspect trying to do video capture will introduce combing or some other artifacts.
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Well, this seems kinda stupid.. I put a 680 Ohm resistor in series with the sync signal (right in the wire between DK & GBC 8200) and as of yet I see no more jumping in the image. It seems solid so far. No jumps, no wobble or shimmer.
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Sweet. I'm going to get a nin2jamma and try this to see what happens to my VGA monitor.
Well, this seems kinda stupid.. I put a 680 Ohm resistor in series with the sync signal (right in the wire between DK & GBC 8200) and as of yet I see no more jumping in the image. It seems solid so far. No jumps, no wobble or shimmer.
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That's great info, socks! My setup is DK PCB->JROK v4.1 + JROK Sync Cleaner->Component Output.
Now that I know much more about various sync types (much more than what I knew when setting up my direct feed), the sync cleaner is probably doing nothing. As far as I'm aware, it's purpose is to "scrub out" anything in the signal other than sync, primarily for use with sync on composite and sync on luma signals.
In my testing, most flat panels handle the component output fine. My DVDO IScan VP30 handles the component output fine. The OSSC, however, constantly loses sync. OSSC's tolerances are theoretically much tighter than those of the formers.
I've speculated that its either a jittery sync (like what us hobbyists are now correcting for on NES's and SNES's...wouldn't that be interesting if Nintendo's jittery sync dated all the way back to 1981... :p ), or out of spec voltage range. Sounds like you've found that it's the latter. Are you able to validate that with a scope (or possibly you already have ;) ).
Dan - 12V can also be pulled off of the edge connector or any point up to and including the NIN2JAMMA. It's at pins 5 and E, going off of the classic pinout. If you're looking for a purely plug and play solution, you'd have to get something like a wall wart rated between 5v-12v, and route the barrel plug end into the cab. Beware, the GBS' barrel plug input is a somewhat less frequently used size.
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I was lazy and didn't even bother checking on a scope, but the sync problem with the GBS 8200 is the GBS 8200 itself. It seems lots of people are having similar issues when they try to use it with their Amigas or Atari STs.
I tried it after finding this online:
https://ianstedman.wordpress.com/gbs-82xx-experiments/ (https://ianstedman.wordpress.com/gbs-82xx-experiments/)
He also has some other suggestions for improving the GBS 8200 like changing one of the capacitors.
The GBS 8200 expects 3.3V LVTTL levels on sync inputs rather than 5V TTL levels. 5V levels are either overloading the input or the levels are being incorrectly interpreted. Using a 680 Ohm resistor is actually the lazy way to fix this but it seems to do the trick. A more proper way would be to use a resistor voltage divider:
https://hackaday.com/2016/12/05/taking-it-to-another-level-making-3-3v-and-5v-logic-communicate-with-level-shifters/ (https://hackaday.com/2016/12/05/taking-it-to-another-level-making-3-3v-and-5v-logic-communicate-with-level-shifters/)
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Ah yes, I'm familiar with that wordpress article. I replaced the linear regulator output with a 22uf cap, as he recommends, but it didn't improve things. Turning my soldering iron on and off still causes the GBS8200 to glitch momentarily. :o
rama, who's been fervently working on the custom firmware, suggests a 100ohm resistor at the input (https://github.com/ramapcsx2/gbs-control/wiki/Build-the-Hardware), between csync and ground. I've got that on mine. Is that acheiving the same result as your 680R inline?
Also, worth noting, if component input is to be used, the SOG line capacitors are out of spec. C33 and C35 should be swapped out for 1nf, to avoid component input sync dropouts. The TrueView 5725 manual even gives a circuit diagram showing that they should be 1nf, but those crazy chinese put 100nf for no good reason. Unfortunately, they are surface mount and require a bit of extra soldering know-how in order to replace.
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I think that 100 Ohm recommendation is for TV level sync input, which is different from TTL level sync input..? but, the end result is probably the same. All we need to do is shift the voltage levels a bit so it can properly detect the difference between a high and a low signal.
I haven't tried replacing that capacitor on mine but I did do the copper tape shielding mod.. I'm not sure if it made a difference but it can't hurt and it could only make things better, especially considering how marginal so many things on this device seem to be.
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It seems I was mis-representing the purpose for the the cap replacements at C33 and C35.
From the shmups custom firmware thread, just to provide clarity:
All source formats except RGBHV (VGA from a PC) benefit from the capacitors swap.
One of the caps is for the 3 RCA input, the other is for RGBS.
The thing I noticed most prior to replacing these caps, was sync dropouts on very bright screens, with component input. That may never be an issue with DK gameplay.
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ok so I got the following now
nin2jamma->sync cleaner->jrok->Capture device.
1. I too am starting think the sync cleaner does squat for these boards.
2. John (Sock) mentioned he figured out the sync problem and an issue way to fix it.
3. With my setup the Dazzle DVC-100 I have (Super old) doesnt have any issues with the picture (It only works with composite connection) but the Cheap AV2USB2.0 device i had shows a little line on the side. Is that a "sync" issue perhaps? Grrr so frustrating.
4. I have my nin2jamma pots for the RGB signal jacked full on trying to combat some brightness issues with the previous setup. Any thoughts on that maybe the issue with the cheap card vs the DVC? I'm gonna go adjust them back down a bit to see and I'm going to put that 680 ohm resistor on the sync and then if that doesnt work lose the sync cleaner completely.
Check this out to see what I'm talking about:
https://clips.twitch.tv/FantasticGenerousSandstormTTours
Dan
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3. No idea.. it actually looks like maybe it's a driver issue or the device's de-interlacing process that is adding strange blank line because of a bug in the code. Try changing or turning off the deinterlacing or scaling settings.
4. I don't have any issues with brightness with my GBS boards. It kinda seems like it might actually just be a bad cable?
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I just got a new capture card - a Magewell Pro HDMI, which I'm happy to report works with direct component connection from the jrok v4.1. No more need to go through a video processor.
1) And while my cab was off the wall to reduce cabling and such, I gave a quick test to bypassing the sync cleaner. For component output, there would effectively be no image when bypassing the sync cleaner. For s-video output, the image is there but constantly losing sync, getting scrambled etc. I didn't test composite output from the jrok. I didn't test going to other devices that have historically worked with the direct jrok output, so YMMV.
If you want to try bypassing the sync cleaner, pull the connector that plugs onto the sync cleaner, and jumper the 2 middle pins. Something like a small paperclip or probably a short piece of solid 26ga wire with the ends stripped would work.
4) I also learned while setting up the new video card that the output from the board, or possibly a result of the NIN2JAMMA, is limited range RGB. If your capture device, display device, etc. is expecting full range RGB you will never get it properly color balanced. In my case, there's also a significant amount of noise visible in black areas that also gets cleared up once the range and color balance is correct. If your capture devices don't give the ability to change this option, OBS will give you the ability. Set up your capture device in OBS, get it to the point that it displays within OBS. Go into the device's properties, and you will see a setting for color range. Change it to 'partial'. The color space setting of 601 or 709 may also have an effect.
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1. The brightness issue was with the GBS -> VGA Converter -> USB so I just bumped it up all the way and i was able to see everything fine. Output to a monitor was always fine.
2. I plugged the SVideo and Composite cables into the USB cap card with the same results. That solid line on the right side of the screen that would come and go. Like a sync issue that wouldnt completely go away. It was not present in the DVC-100 with either Svideo or Composite which makes think its a sync issue that the DVC ignores or is within "spec" for that card vs the cheap USB adapter? Is there a way to make this sync more consistent vs using the Sync Cleaner output? I'm thinking of a cheap composite->hdmi adapter and the hdmi->composite if I have to try and make it force a signal that will work. Wes mentioned he uses the output from his monitor to feed into his capture card. I'm gonna try to use my damn VCR if i have to.
4. Maybe its my DK somehow? The GBS was stuttering on both the DVC and USB cap card from the GBS even when adding the 680ohm 1/2 resistor. Could be the VGA converter as well I suppose?
Dan
23. No idea.. it actually looks like maybe it's a driver issue or the device's de-interlacing process that is adding strange blank line because of a bug in the code. Try changing or turning off the deinterlacing or scaling settings.
4. I don't have any issues with brightness with my GBS boards. It kinda seems like it might actually just be a bad cable?
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4. Maybe its my DK somehow? The GBS was stuttering on both the DVC and USB cap card from the GBS even when adding the 680ohm 1/2 resistor. Could be the VGA converter as well I suppose?
I'm convinced that DK and probably most Nintendo boards of the era, output a slightly out of spec sync signal. Socks may know better, but I've done a ton of testing - through the JROK, supergun SCART output to various devices, RGBS direct to various devices. I don't remember all the results, but they are definitely inconsistent, and below is what I do recall:
1) DK -> NIN2JAMMA -> Supergun SCART -> OSSC - constantly loses sync
2) DK -> NIN2JAMMA -> GBS-8200 RGBS input -> PC VGA LCD screen - good
3) DK -> JROK w/ sync cleaner -> a couple of old school capture devices w/ s-video and composite input - both good (TV-PCIRC PCI capture card and Happauge WinTV-PVR USB)
4) DK-> Nintendo inverter board -> GBS-8200 RGBS input -> VCR direct recording to VHS, and VCR composite pass through to above old school capture devices - good
4) DK -> JROK w/ sync cleaner -> Diamond VC500 USB capture device s-video input - scrambled image, no good
5) DK -> JROK w/ sync cleaner -> DVD0 VP30 component input - good
6) DK -> JROK w/ sync cleaner -> various flat screens, comoponent input - 3 out of 5 work, 2 out of 5 no worky
and most recently, as I described above DK -> JROK w/ sync cleaner -> Magewell Pro HDMI - component input works, s-video input does not; DK -> JROK without sync cleaner -> Magewell Pro HDMI - neither component nor s-video input work
I might have a couple suggestions for improving how the GBS handles the input, based on recent developments with the custom firmware project that has unearthed some poor component choices/implementations. One in particular is the SMD capacitors on the component sync input are improperly sized from the factory. The jrok sync cleaner + poor sync implemenation on the GBS (which affects the IC's sync cleaning) could be combining problems. So, please provide a refresher on what your process chain is, from board to capture device.
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I stumbled upon this thread while looking for information pertaining to a similar issue I'm having with trying to get direct feed from my Nintendo VS PCBs. I know this is a DK forum, but figured you folks might have some insights.
I've been using a JAMMA splitter called "Splitfire" (https://www.arcade-projects.com/forums/index.php?thread/7200-nac-splitfire-jamma-streaming-solution/&pageNo=1) to be able to record direct feeds from my games while playing on the cabinets themselves. I've wired up a harness directly to the device so that I can use it on all of my games, not just JAMMA but classics as well such as Ms. Pacman, Marble Madness, Cheyenne, Gaplus/Galaga 3, Super Hang On, etc.
So clearly it works fine with most games, but I've ran into a snag when trying to capture from my Nintendo VS board(s). I have a Nintendo VS Dual System (aka "Red Tent"). One side is running VS Super Mario Bros, and the other is running VS Dr. Mario. Both games pass through the Splitfire just fine with absolutely no issues on the cabinet arcade monitors. But the signal that runs out of the Splitfire DB15 port appears weak. I know that the colors are inverted, which I correct with OBS via a filter (or using my Framemeister), but they still appear too weak and washed out. The signal almost seems partial/incomplete and faint. If I play with the gain knob on the Splitfire and turn it very quickly, I'll get a perfect picture for a fraction of a second, but that's it. The same thing happens if I unplug and plug the power back in. I've tried using the OSSC as well as the Framemeister, playing with the settings, but can't seem to get it right.
Any thoughts? Perhaps some screenshots/footage would be helpful?
Thanks!!
-Jim
Thanks again and great work!
-Jim
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I got CGA to VGA : Gonbes CGA / EGA / YUV / RGB To VGA Video Converter
https://www.mikesarcade.com/cgi-bin/store.pl?sku=GBS-8200
What cause input lag, when I boot my machine I do not see boot up screen of the game but
only "Chinese characters" and then the attract screen? No bootup screen before the attract screen?
Which "blue vga" slot are you using the one one one side next to yellow RCA slot or the other side?
Also can one set the cga/vga mode on the PCB somewhere on the CGA PCB?
I got a 12V feed molex from my JAMMA Edge connector harness.
Is it safe to update the firmware on this board? If so how do one do that?
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jimbodeanny - have you tried toying with limited range vs. full range settings (assuming you have them) at the capture device? I find that my magewell pro capture card believes it is receiving a full range signal, but when changing it to handle the signal as limited range, the washed out appearance is corrected. YMMV
francoisadt - The stock GBS-8200's are not terrible, but they do come with noticeable input lag, among some other shortcomings. The custom firmware that has been an ongoing project on the shmups forum is your best option to combat lag. Once modded, the GBS is on par with the OSSC and other no-lag scalers. The project thread is very long, going back through many iterations, but I'll link it here for posterity. I suggest visiting the github page for the current iteration of the project, which has all the info you need.
Shmups project thread: https://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=52172&sid=09598b488941b8bd161eec3b36e0210f
Github project page: https://github.com/ramapcsx2/gbs-control
The GBS-8200 manual should answer the rest of your questions: https://www.mikesarcade.com/estore/datasheets/GBS-8200-booklet.pdf
-VGA connector next to the YPbPr connector is input, VGA connector on the opposite side of the heat sink is output
-12v is max. Many of us users have found that using a 9V source produces more stable results
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To flash an unknown PCB is too tricky.
I have read the very technical forum post mentioned above and it is too difficult for me to do.
Giving the risk it can forfeit a working PCB into a non-working PCB.
Is there any alternative to GBS-8200? Any other CGA to VGA adaptor card that is better
with no lag input/output?
Is GBS-8200 the best adaptor/converter out there to buy?
Regards
Fdt
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You don't flash the GBS. With the mod, the ESP8266 basically intercepts the lines to/from the original firmware, and the GBS operates from the custom firmware loaded on the ESP8266.
You do flash the ESP8266, but undoing the mod returns the GBS to original operation, and again the native firmware on the GBS is never altered.