Donkey Kong Forum
General Donkey Kong Discussion => General Donkey Kong Discussion => Topic started by: WCopeland on February 13, 2018, 07:10:30 am
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In recent days, some members of the community have been accused of being "the real cheaters" for using buttons that do not include an original Nintendo roller microswitch.
For the record, contrary to what has been implied, my use of a Groovy Game Gear jump button has never been a secret. I have never concealed in any of my cab verifications that I've used this button. If anyone has asked what button I use, I've always been transparent about it.
I wanted to get the community's pulse on whether original buttons + original microswitches should be required for DKF submissions.
If the vote is "Yes", I'll ask Jeremy to strip all my scores from DKF. The poll is completely anonymous, and will be closed after 14 days.
Thanks all!
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https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01AAUPQHQ/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01AAUPQHQ/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
Here is what I used for my last two scores. My 1.206 was used with a button from Mike's Arcade, but the microswitch was the one without the roller. My 1.19 I believe would be my highest score on all original hardware if any actions needed to be taken.
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I believe the criteria for DK record attempts should be much tighter than it is currently
New rules:
1 - All credits should be started with a genuine US 1981 25 cent coin, verified by the US mint
2 - You must wear clothes that you wore back in 1981 or source 1981 clothing. These will have to be carbon dated before the attempt
3 - Only electrical power allowed must be from power stations that existed in 1981
4 - Recordings of attempts must be on 1981 or earlier video hardware
5 - You must have a fully grown mullet hairstyle. Any other haircut is an auto DQ (No wigs)
6 - The recording venue must have existed in 1981. Newer buildings are not allowed
These rule additions will greatly enhance the reliability of DK record attempts. And stop all the phoney submissions at a stroke. I hope you can all see the logic in this
Kappa
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That amazon link button is the same one I replaced mine with also. The original button dry-rotted and broke.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01AAUPQHQ/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01AAUPQHQ/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
Here is what I used for my last two scores. My 1.206 was used with a button from Mike's Arcade, but the microswitch was the one without the roller. My 1.19 I believe would be my highest score on all original hardware if any actions needed to be taken.
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lol
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It's a switch....who cares? What actually matters is "when" you press it ;-)
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Looks like the cutoff date for voting can be moved up.
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I registered solely so I could vote NO.
I've been going to the arcades since 1982. You might have heard of my local arcade, Twin Galaxies in Ottumwa Iowa.
For as long as I can recall...buttons and sticks have broken and been replaced. Many times with non original hardware.
As time goes on, it's going to become harder and harder to source OEM parts for various machines. Adapt and move on.
Think of modern eSports. Mouse, keyboards, controllers... players have a choice. A LOT of choices. Sometimes choice is dictated by sponsors at the pro level etc. My personal opinion is as long as the board is 100% correct. Good to go. Power supply, buttons, monitors... none of that should matter. It should be player preference.
My 2 cents.
While I am here...
Congrats to Robbie and Wes for handling the accusations like real champions. This hobby needs more players like you guys, as an example for others to look up to.
- Tim McVey -
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This is clearly cheating and the Snake will get you for it! <snek> <snek> <snek> <snek> <snek> <snek> <snek> .... I'm gonna replace my button with one of these and I'll get over a million with no practice required. Kreygasm
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FYI, there's replacement switches with a roller available:
https://www.ebay.com/i/282313507360?chn=ps (https://www.ebay.com/i/282313507360?chn=ps)
That's just one potential source, can probably be found for less expensive with a little google fu. Part number is: V3L-111-D8
I found this out because one of these was on the jump button in my red DK and i recently swapped it out for an original switch, of which I grabbed (3) when someone was selling some on KLOV. For me, I prefer originality wherever possible. BUT in terms of acceptability, as long as its not a button providing some additional feature like autofire or something crazy, then I say no harm no foul.
The V3L-111-D8's are a noticeably higher actuation force than stock (noticeably "stiffer" feel).
On the flip side of the argument, however, we are pretty rigid about requiring a 4-way stick, so not sure how that should play into the consideration of a jump button.
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we are pretty rigid about requiring a 4-way stick, so not sure how that should play into the consideration of a jump button.
With an 8way on an original PCB, you can steer barrels while climbing ladders. The 8way stick actually does influence the gameplay and give you an edge over the competition. MAME blocks these inputs.
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Yeah I had heard that years ago... so any 4 way stick should be acceptable no?
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Yeah I had heard that years ago... so any 4 way stick should be acceptable no?
In my opinion any stick with a 4way restrictor plate should be acceptable. Looking at the submission rules:
4-way controls are required.
This suggests if you wanted to use a Sanwa JLF stick with the plate set to restrict to 4way, it should be acceptable. In my opinion this is a positive thing because oftentimes players overseas, especially in Japan, only have access to candy cabs that have these Sanwa sticks installed.
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Voting no, because it is completely and utterly asinine to think that an arcade button without turbo or macro capabilities would give any kind of advantage or disadvantage. It is frankly a joke that this poll even needs to exist, because those accusations nothing more than a knee jerk reaction to Billy Mitchell's MAME generated Donkey Kong runs.
...if you wanted to use a Sanwa JLF stick with the plate set to restrict to 4way, it should be acceptable. In my opinion this is a positive thing because oftentimes players overseas, especially in Japan, only have access to candy cabs that have these Sanwa sticks installed.
I'm glad that this consideration is in effect, because banning standard arcade parts for an arcade run is one of the worst side-effects of the ultra-purist mentality (especially at TG), which ends up ultimately shunning tons of valuable competition for no good reason.
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I have used both the bog-standard Mike's Arcade repro buttons (pretty close to the original, I would opine) and the GGG buttons (mentioned openly by Wes in time past Twitch streams). There are positives and negatives (subjective) to both; but ultimately, I really do believe it just comes down to personal preference here.
The Mike's Arcade repros:
1.) Seem pretty durable
2.) Has a softer/squishier feeling when activating it (easier on me physically)
3.) Has a longer activation point/travel distance (may be seen as a slight disadvantage by some, but can be adjusted, sooooo...)
The GGGs:
1.) Dung durability (switches seem to start failing within a few months...one started going bad and I had to hit the jump button like four times before it "warmed up"/responded <mad>)
2.) Has a much harder type feeling when activating it (bottoms out quite quickly, which hurts my fingers a bit over a full game)
3.) Has a shorter activation point/travel distance (may be seen as a slight advantage by some, but again, "originals" can be adjusted, sooooo...)
These are just a few observations I have noticed over time, but I am only speaking for myself here. If forced to choose one over the other, I would choose whatever I was more comfortable with; and I am not convinced either way at this point in time.
However, when it comes to MAME and keyboards (I should know Kappa), I love me some super cheap rubber domes that take for ever to push down and can take a beating. I cannot stand mechanicals, scissor-switch/chiclet, or any other variant type keyboards. And this most likely puts me in the minority here, since the view would be that I am handicapping myself.
And another thing, until someone finds that locked away, virgin DK in the Indiana Jones hanger, or if you have found a way to stop entropy in its tracks, there ain't nobody (afaik) playing on a 100%, bone stock machine.
So if you really just want to get down to it, down to some brass tacks, as far as gameplay is concerned, you can throw a stinkin' ham sandwich on the control panel for a jump button, and any top player would still have the potential to snag the world record, imo.
More like a "bomb" out, knucklez. 8)
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I voted No, at the end of the day its a button, it can only be either on or off!!!!!, let me give you this analogy .... When Tiger Woods won the Masters, did he use the same clubs as everyone else???
I've been in the Retro Gaming Community for 20 years and frankly I'm sick, tired and maybe a little jaded of the whole "community", when I first started I thought it would be a good way of interacting with like-minded people, boy was I wrong!!! It's full of arguments and constant sniping and bitching. We are all here to enjoy video games,......that's right "IT'S A VIDEO GAME", there are more worrying issues in the world.
I will say this though, A button is a button, anyone can use the buttons that Wes or Robbie uses its open and they have always been open about it but claiming to set an arcade record and a completely different system IS cheating. Seems that the whole competitive gaming thing is a sham, I pulled away from that one a long time ago. I take my hat off to Wes and Robbie for acting like true champions and gentlemen, as Tim McVey said We could use a few more like you guys in the "Community".
Just my Two Cents Guys!!!
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I love me some super cheap rubber domes that take for ever to push down and can take a beating
<3 <3 <3
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I was very interested to read what I just did about the joystick issue.
Seems to me you will have a massive problem if you decide joysticks must be only 4way capable, as I don't see how that can be provable by video recording.
I don't actually play DK, and one reason is that I don't like how difficult the turns are, it never crossed my mind that this could be an intentional part of the game design.
edit: OK so I've just done my research (found 1 thread about 8way sticks). Seems you do require 4way sticks. So I guess I'm now curious how you verify the stick behaviour ?
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I was very interested to read what I just did about the joystick issue.
Seems to me you will have a massive problem if you decide joysticks must be only 4way capable, as I don't see how that can be provable by video recording.
I don't actually play DK, and one reason is that I don't like how difficult the turns are, it never crossed my mind that this could be an intentional part of the game design.
edit: OK so I've just done my research (found 1 thread about 8way sticks). Seems you do require 4way sticks. So I guess I'm now curious how you verify the stick behaviour ?
A world record submission needs to show the control panel being used. So the player unclips the panel and shows the underneath with the restrictor plate functioning as necessary. See the below for example.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWzFPMQMqt4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWzFPMQMqt4)
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Ah OK. I see now that's it's possible!
You are helped greatly by specifying it must be a nintendo stick, which means you are familiar with the switch characteristics. The nintendo sticks characteristics are also helpful: the activation and de-activation points are quite separated, and the clicks sound different.
That's a video of a very 4way stick (In my judgement). But what does a video of a worn 'slightly 8way' stick look like? How good does the video audio quality need to be to make a confident ruling between 4way and 8way. I suppose the onus is on the player to satisfy the
reviewers.
Anyway, looks like you have it under control :) I'll get back to thinking about my trackball roller diameter now.
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If you are steering barrels while climbing a ladder, it's pretty obvious.
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Ah OK. I see now that's it's possible!
You are helped greatly by specifying it must be a nintendo stick, which means you are familiar with the switch characteristics. The nintendo sticks characteristics are also helpful: the activation and de-activation points are quite separated, and the clicks sound different.
That's a video of a very 4way stick (In my judgement). But what does a video of a worn 'slightly 8way' stick look like? How good does the video audio quality need to be to make a confident ruling between 4way and 8way. I suppose the onus is on the player to satisfy the
reviewers.
Anyway, looks like you have it under control :) I'll get back to thinking about my trackball roller diameter now.
The restrictor plate is what makes it a 2 / 4 or 8 way in a nintendo cabinet. ITs quite obvious what they look like. The 2 way its just left and right (Straight), The four way looks like a rounded +, and the 8 way looks like a round circle.
https://www.mikesarcade.com/cgi-bin/store.pl?sku=TKG-23-51
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The button issue is not really a serious issue. Operators replaced joysticks and buttons over the years and it either helped them make more money or not. No one plays a broken game. So you obviously you have to fix it. New doesn't necessarily mean better. Wico sticks need time to get the grommets broken in. Nintendo stick can get all greased up and attract dirt and become stiff and rust. I really all come down to the players capability not the equipment whether work or not. The better players will always perform better all things being equal.
Proper maintenance is what i would put the button issue under. If you are playing with inadequate controls you have no one to blame but yourself. People have personal preferences not everyone will find the controller the same but there is a range we all play with in that is fair and everyone agrees upon. I personally don't like micro switch buttons on games that rapid fire or timed jumping are required. I like leaf switches.
They are new and old button are microswitch so it real is not a very radical equipment upgrade. It gets to actually being able to find parts. Repros are just that not an exact replica. It is hard to get the worn in on new sticks or worn out out of the old. Worn out buttons need to be replaced if you are playing regularly so it is up to the player to maintain his game not radically alter it.
dwayne
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Sticks like Sanwa's are also easily verifiable. The restrictor is in a "diamond" orientation for 4-way. Square, round, octagonal (and some players prefer no restrictor at all, for certain applications), would not be allowable for a DK submission. Seimitsu's which are also very common in candy cab's have a 3-way restrictor. As with original nintendo hardware, the "rounded plus sign" position is the 4-way restrictor.
https://www.focusattack.com/seimitsu-ls-32-triple-restrictor-plate/
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For a home-use only Donkey Kong it's pretty easy to get an original Nintendo button (or a good repro https://www.mikesarcade.com/cgi-bin/store.pl?sku=TKGU-23-32), and a new microswitch (https://www.mikesarcade.com/cgi-bin/store.pl?sku=TKG-23-10). This whole setup would cost about $11 from Mike's Arcade, and last forever if you're the only person using it--since it's not getting cigarette burns or getting kid snot on it, like in an arcade. And if you're the type of person to layout the cash for an original cab, an extra $11 investment seems negligible.
So there's no real argument that the original hardware experience is unattainable to those who own their own dedicated cabinet.
Then why use a newer button?
If top players favor these newer buttons, the only logical conclusion I can come to is that: they feel these new buttons are advantageous. The advantages are up for debate: reliability (works every time like the first time), less maintenance (the original setup is a pain to keep accurate over time), shorter throw (no having to account for lag), etc. But I think that top players have examined button options, and have made their choice based on their knowledge and experience. (I mean, I spent hours on the first day of the Kong Off 6 just getting my CP up and running properly, mostly due to the shitty button situation, and my original CP having an 8-way joystick. It sucks. I get it.)
Obviously:
--it makes a difference
--it's not something people could have used in the early 80s
--and I don't really give a shit if you use one
When I first started playing, I really thought people were losing their minds over the whole 8-way joystick thing, and I didn't get it. I understood that my status as a neophyte was why I didn't fully understand the intricacies of different Donkey Kong control mechanisms, and I decided to sit back, listen, learn, and develop an opinion based on knowledge and experience--instead of spouting off and looking like an asshole. The internet seems to be full of people who haven't learned this lesson.
The newer buttons are better (for some), that's clear. Does it matter? Yes. How much? Not enough.
4-way joystick matters. Buttons can be a pain in the ass, use whatever works for you.
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My opinion is buttons do not matter FOR THIS GAME. the ability to press the button rapidly does not matter for DK. Therefore, any reasonable button design should be accepted.
Sticks are a different matter. My opinion is that it should be a nintendo stick with 4 way restrictor plate, or a reasonable replication. Failing that, it should have a clover gate, and NOT a diamond gate.
it is too easy to shift directions 90 degrees rapidly on a diamond gate compared to a clover gate.