Donkey Kong Forum
Streaming => Streaming Events => Topic started by: tessler1134 on March 15, 2013, 11:01:00 pm
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Donkey Kong Wildcard Rematch #2 Final Scoreboard
1. Ross Benziger: 990,100
2. Jeff Wolfe: 973,100
3. Phil Tudose: 969,500
4. Svavar Gunnar Gunnarsson: 919,100
5. John McKinnell: 905,700
6. Ethan Danials: 904,900
7. Jeff Harrist: 874,400
8. Ben Falls: 819,000
9. Robbie Lakeman: 764,600
10 Eric Tessler: 714,500
11. Joseph Carroll: 708,900
12. Dan Desjardins: 694,000
13. Chris Psaros: 647,700
14. Danial Dock: 612,400
15. Mitchell Elliott 608,400
16. John Salter: 494,400
17. Ken House: 456,100
18. Todd Anthony Lalonde: 437,900
19. Brian Allen: 350,400
20. Kayla Illusivefx: 274,500
21. Colman Paolo: 266,800
22. John McNeil: 265,800
23. George Strain: 252,800
24. Nickj Shiels: 244,800
25. Allen Staal: 235,800
26. Craig Ziegler: 179,400
27. Don Rubin: 82,700
28. Michael Statsny: 68,700
29. Edward Deitman: 27,300
Bounties
First kill screen: Jeff Harrist
Highest score on 1-1 (First Jumpman): Phil Tudose - 13,100
Longest last man: John McKinnell - 45 boards
Beat Ross's score from the previous contest: Jeff Wolfe
Prizes:
Ross Benziger: $250 (1st place with 990,100)
Jeff Wolfe: $150 (2nd place with 973,100 and beat Ross's score from the previous contest)
Phil Tudose: $100 (3rd place with 969,500 and highest 1-1 score of 13,100)
Jeff Harrist: $50 (first kill screen of the contest with 874,400)
John McKinnell: $50 (longest last man with 45 boards)
Congrats to everyone who won and participated in the tournament !!!
- Eric and John
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A by scores put up yet? I'm gonna be a last minute player. I have my son on the couch Cus he's been sick and I'm not gonna play while he tries to sleep. He'd have donkey kong nightmares hearing the music in the background. Lol.
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nice opening scores guys...
i just scored 471900 but it seems my stream died 1/2 hour in :(
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nice opening scores guys...
i just scored 471900 but it seems my stream died 1/2 hour in :(
It did indeed, I was watching when you went off!
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i think my pc went to sleep, have just set it to 'never'...
8)
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AFAIK, Robbie is in the lead with a 764,600 game that ended on 18-2.
(EDIT: Looks like Eric put it up while I was writing this)
As for me, I picked tonight to start getting killed by springs.
In all the time I've had this machine, I've been killed by a spring exactly TWICE. Tonight alone I've beaten that "record." Three games, 2 300-something, one false start. Lawdy lawdy.
Bout to jump in again...
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Ive been sick as heck last few days. Still not feeling great but will get on in a few hours! Good luck everyone.
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not a great start, played 3 games all in the 400ks, highest that recorded - 439500
will play more later...
8)
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First game of the day, put up 578,700.
It's on! GL everyone.
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I actually just finished doing a 896900 point killscreen but then i look to the computer and the connection was breaking up the whole time I was streaming :( There are a couple of bits you can see from the game on my twitch channel but nothing decent... such a bummer
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Ben (syscrusher) just completed Level 14 with a score of 571,400. He's also still on his first man.
Update #1: 620,500 - End of Level 15 - 0 Deaths
Update #2: 668,300 - End of Level 16 - 0 Deaths
Update #3: Game over
Final Score: 717,300
First 3 deaths were all on Level 17-2 Conveyors.
Final death was on Level 17-6 Rivets.
All 4 "death stages" were fiercely uncooperative.
Great effort, Ben. It was looking like a first man killscreen for a while.
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Got slaughtered on 17-2 losing my first 3 guys. Lost my last guy on 17-6. Score was 717,300. I love this game! :D
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PF have been evil to me today also Ben, gg though!
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Ben, I don't think 17 is your lucky number. 717K losing all these guys on L17.
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328600
Last to deaths on
L10 pies
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874,400 Killscreen :D
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Got slaughtered on 17-2 losing my first 3 guys. Lost my last guy on 17-6. Score was 717,300. I love this game! :D
I was relieved when you survived that rivet stage earlier in the game, where I complimented you on your powerful rendition of "Takin' It To The Streets". When you started laughing, I was afraid I might have broken your concentration.
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Morning everyone. Some nice scores overnight (Aussie time).
No Aussies with any scores up yet. Going to give streaming on my laptop a go instead of the cab, starting in a few mins
www.twitch.tv/mrbumpnjump (http://www.twitch.tv/mrbumpnjump)
Don't expect too much, I woke up about 10 mins ago ;D
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upped my best of the day to 601700, this game was going pretty well at 1m pace but lost last two men on level 14 pies...
so do you need to email to get on the leaderboard, i thought that was just for prizes...
8)
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I just finished doing 919.100 point kill screen live. Check out http://www.twitch.tv/sneikarmokko/b/378579336# (http://www.twitch.tv/sneikarmokko/b/378579336#) :)
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I just finished doing 919.100 point kill screen live. Check out http://www.twitch.tv/sneikarmokko/b/378579336# (http://www.twitch.tv/sneikarmokko/b/378579336#) :)
2 in one day, well done m8...
8)
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775900 ended @ 16-6? Three completely boneheaded deaths and one where I just got straight up cheated by the game. No sir, I didn't hit that sausage-legged muvvah fukin pie!
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got 350,400 then 350,700
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looks like my mame games have game sound but no mik audio so wont count ::) ill get back on the cab...
8)
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Wow. Who got 13,100 on 1-1? That's a pretty serious 1-1.
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Took me 14 freaking starts, but I finally got into the "Donkey Kong zone."
647,700 16-6.
I, probably like a lot of people, will wait to see if I can do better before submitting it. At least I won't totally bomb out. Phew!
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I'm struggling today!!! Regardless, this is awesome! Thanks again to John and Eric for setting this up!!!
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New Pb 244,800
60,000 improvement
Nick
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Wow. Who got 13,100 on 1-1? That's a pretty serious 1-1.
Well... who's the person that only plays 1-1 and who's the person that spent 6 hours playing 1-1 today? Haha. King of 1-1!
Since you have to say your name each time you restart a game, I calculated that Phil Tudose said his name at least 800 times (since he pretty much did close to 800 1-1 attempts, haha).
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It was smart for Phil to go for that one.
Actually, as the WR holder, maybe he should have been excluded from that bounty?? ;D
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Chris:
Me and Phil discussed about that. And I think that everyone should be allowed to try for the 1-1 bounty at the next wild card rematch. Me, Phil, Jeff Willms and Dean all have over 13k, it would be pretty cool! Oh, we could also add Hank with his 10,800 1-1 high score (I mean come on Hank, even Brian Kuh has 13k+).
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I got 10800 today :P
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My high is 12,500 or so, thank you.
And I have the most important world record as my signature states.
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Yeah, I did an 11,800 1-1 today, but of course Phil goes and gets 13,100.... Just kidding ;) good work Phil!
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I got the world record in screwing up. I don't even have a 400k game yet. Only got two real games in but still I knew I'd only have a few games in me since I had my kids this weekend.
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!!ATTENTION!!
Tournament will be ending in 2 hours!
Don't to forget to submit your scores to dkwildcardrematch@gmail.com. With your name, score, and game start time (estimate is okay. Don't need exact time.)
You will not be ranked if you don't submit your score.
Also, you can start a game up until 1 second before the tournament end time.
Good luck the rest of the way!
Eric and John
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WOOHOO! my first killscreen! and i dont care if nobody saw it lol...
final score 905,700, final man i think was 45 screens...
8)
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I just have a feeling that there's going to be a "breakthrough" of some kind, for someone.
Thus the oracle spoke!
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ok I just 708,900.
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WOOHOO! my first killscreen! and i dont care if nobody saw it lol...
final score 905,700, final man i think was 45 screens...
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Congrats Jon!
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logged my final game at 775100, now time for bed. Thanks again John and Eric for setting this up.
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cheers, surprised i made it, felt totally konged out early in the game...
good luck to all those playing a final game, id like to watch a bit but its 6.30am here and i been up 24hours...
8)
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A lot of great scores I only got three real games in the whole tournament but I'm happy with my 708,900 I submitted. I seen some really awesome scores and good to know this site was here to really get me back into playing again. I can't wait for the next tournament. Hopefully it will be on daddies weekend off and I'll play the whole 24 hours instead of just a few.
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Finished my last game, could have snuck one more in but I have to go out shortly - final score submitted was my last game 265,800. 200 pts shy of my best score ever. Very happy with the end result though, haven't played that much DK recently and this was my first serious attempt playing on a cab instead of the laptop keyboard.
My high score table looked like this after about 40 odd games I'm guessing:
265,800
244,700
229,200
159,200
155,100
Think I had previously only scored over 200k about 3 or 4 times, so to get 3 200+ scores in 24 hours, I'm pretty happy with that.
Watched a fair bit of Nick (Monstabonza) play and he really pushed me - it's nice that a tournament like this is run and it's not exclusively for the elite players.
Big thanks to Eric & John for running this tournament. I'm 100% in for the next one, though I probably won't have a cabinet then - might have to sneak around to Steve Grunbergers place to play :)
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990100, choking off my chance at a mill on board 21-6. Game is clipped and email submission sent.
http://www.justin.tv/vondummpenstein/c/2036717 (http://www.justin.tv/vondummpenstein/c/2036717)
In addition I need to point out that my score from the first rematch was actually 972600, which means Jeff Wolfe beat it. I double checked my archives after learning how close he came and as it turns out, he did in fact beat it. I didn't make the rules, I don't know how Eric and John want to address this, I'm just stating the facts.
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WOOHOO! my first killscreen! and i dont care if nobody saw it lol...
final score 905,700, final man i think was 45 screens...
8)
Congrats Jon!!
That's one hell of a game! I watched your 600k game where you got stuffed in the pie factory twice :(
I watched way too much of this yesterday.
Well done you guys!
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New Pb 244,800
60,000 improvement
Nick
Nearly a 40% improvement on a PB, probably of the best improvements of everyone that played - a good reason to keep these comps open to all - even us mediocre type players. Nick hasn't been playing this as long as me (maybe 12mths less), so he'll no doubt overtake my PB if he keeps at it.
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This was a blast! Congrats to all. The KO3 can't come soon enough.
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guess my score didn't get accepted. Oh well maybe next time.
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cheers Jonesy, thanks for watching...
wow 3 big late games, well played guys! congrats Ross and nice last man Jeff...
8)
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Bliss you emailed your score in right? Yeah lots of people got PB's it seems which is AWESOME. I thought when I went 61 boards (4-1 -> 14-2) on one man was pretty good but then read Ben got to 17-2 on his FIRST man and lost 3 in a row there? OMG my Rage would have made the Hulk look like a sissy girl....
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Congrats everyone for some very impressive scores. 1 new killscreener and several new PBs. 6 scores over 900K when there was only 1 at the original rematch. Very impressive!
Lots of great scores at the end there. Phil's Houdini-like escape of a freezer on the last girder of a L21 barrel board was exciting to watch. I was also looking forward to Ross' 21-6 only to be doing a facepalm seconds into the board. Great game anyway!
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Yeah Dan emailed with name score date and time and link to twitch stream. Hopefully I get a response of what I did wrong if I did do something wrong for future game play. I didn't win a bounty or anything. It was more of just to be put up on the scoreboard for fun.
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Who emailed it, and when? What's your real name. I don't know who's who by forum names.....
Only 2 Dan's in the tournament, and I only have emails with score submissions of their own scores.
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Forgot to check the spam folder. 2 more scores added:
11. Joseph Carroll: 708,900
22. George Strain: 252,800
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Thanks john.
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Thanks for putting this on and congrats to the winners and all the new personal bests. I did not have a great day and my stream was not cooperating during my one ok game. Can't wait for the next one.
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Give it up to Eric and John, this event was a blast!
At one point there were about ten DK streams featured on the front page of Aurcade, and popping back and forth between them was a lot of fun.
Congrats to everyone who placed in the prizes, and everyone who set new personal bests. Scratch that,.. Congrats to everyone for being part of a great event. Thank you to everyone who participated.
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Congrats Ross on the Back-to-Back wins.
Pretty impressive scores by the field.
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Give it up to Eric and John, this event was a blast!
At one point there were about ten DK streams featured on the front page of Aurcade, and popping back and forth between them was a lot of fun.
Congrats to everyone who placed in the prizes, and everyone who set new personal bests. Scratch that,.. Congrats to everyone for being part of a great event. Thank you to everyone who participated.
I didn't realize it was featured on Aurcade - I would have checked it out to see if there was a link to my stream so that the people of the world could bask in my elite DK goodness ;D
Sent a FB msg to John last night saying thanks for a great comp. but didn't have Eric's details, think I thanked them both above - but in case I didn't, thanks guys 8)
Probably too hard to make an online comp like this a sanctioned TG event, but it would be nice in the future if they can put some info up in their front page news section. Having said that, TG is probably still working a lot of things out because they didn't even make mention of Victor's (now successful) Missile Command WR attempt.
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Thanks to everyone who participated...this was so much fun and I can't wait until the next one. We have a great group of DKers out there...the KO 3 is going to be awesome!!!
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I didn't know it was featured on Aurcade... Would have been cool to have checked it out!
I think I finally recovered from the weekend. Had to work (the real job) Sat and Sun, so I didn't get much sleep.
Thanks to everyone who participated, promoted and supported this event. I had a blast working the scoreboard and fielding questions before, during and after the event. I even had time to play a few games of DK.
DO NOT MISS THE NEXT EVENT! There will be more than just prize $ at stake! Stay tuned!
-John
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To clear up a misunderstanding - any Aurcade member whose streaming account is linked to their Aurcade profile will be automatically displayed under "Member Streams" in the sidebar on the Aurcade homepage whenever they initiate a stream.
So (as far as I know), it's not that the event was featured per se, there was just a butt-ton of member streams in the sidebar!
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I'm doing a quick write-up with the results and felt that I needed to point something out, for the record.
According to my Twitch emails, Ethan Daniels went live at 12:00 AM (Pacific).
On his stream (http://www.twitch.tv/f_symbols/b/378354457) which lasts 22 hours straight through, he hits the kill screen at 7 hours, 17 minutes (7:17 AM). The score was listed on the updated standings on Eric's Facebook page at 10:39 AM.
At the time of Eric's update, Jeff Harrist's kill screen game was in progress. Yet Jeff, and not Ethan, would end up with the "first kill screen" bounty.
So, I am assuming that, in his e-mail submission, Ethan made the mistake of forgetting to explicitly claim the bounty (which was one of the tournament rules).
I am going to mention this in the write-up, so correct me if I'm wrong. I just wanted to be sure I have the story straight.
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ouch that would suck if thats the case...i thought Ethan got the first killscreen but when i saw Jeff listed on the scoreboard i just assumed his game finished first but he didnt post about it till later...
8)
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My Twitch auto-emails say that Ethan started at 12:00 AM, and that Jeff's morning session started at 9:59 AM.
If Ethan's 7:17 video timecode corresponds to 7:17 AM (which it must), then he got his kill screen over 90 minutes before Jeff started playing.
Plus, like I said, Eric had already announced this score at 10:39 AM. He did not mention that it was a kill screen (possibly because Ethan didn't claim the bounty?)
Jeff said that his KS was his first game of the day, and his post announcing the kill screen came at 12:28 PM (2.5 hours after starting the stream sounds just about right).
874,400 Killscreen :D
So if I'm reading the situation correctly, Ethan was indeed first. However, as stated in the tournament rules: "Contestant is solely responsible for specifying which bounty they want to claim when they submit a score." Perhaps Ethan wasn't aware that he was first, or that he had to specify this?
Also, before 9 AM, Svavar mentioned having gotten a kill screen as well, but the stream malfunctioned.
Sucks that these two missed out, but them's the rules I guess. :)
(Incidentally, I would recommend Ethan's kill screen (http://www.twitch.tv/f_symbols/b/378354457) (@7:17:15) to whoever is reading this. It's pretty funny. Made me feel better about bumbling the recent one I got!)
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(Incidentally, I would recommend Ethan's kill screen (http://www.twitch.tv/f_symbols/b/378354457) (@7:17:15) to whoever is reading this. It's pretty funny. Made me feel better about bumbling the recent one I got!)
Oh man! Ethan's 22-1 brings the whole question of who got the first kill screen to a new level.
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I didn't realize Ethan pulled a Lemay on the killscreen.
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i had popped into Ethans stream just after his game and im sure i remember him saying he was going to go check what he needs to do to submit...cant believe he got it wrong, besides surely he would have until hours after the tourney end to send a correct email...
he didnt get DQd for pulling a Lemay did he!
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Ethan didn't EXACTLY put a Lemay on the kill screen.
Pulling a Lemay on the kill screen would be to die by trying to back jump the first barrel on 22-1.
But Ethan died from the first barrel rolling under his hammer because he was too excited that Kong was throwing a wild barrel to smash and get 1000 points.
At least, me, I died in honor by trying to do a back jump while trying to steer the next barrel to come down the middle ladder. You, Ethan, you just died by doing something stupid and easy on 22-1! You DON'T deserve to be called "Pulling a Lemay". End of story! ;)
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For the record, the killscreen is not the killscreen until you are KILLED by the code bug in the game. If you get hit and lose your last man before the code bug kills you it would not be an official killscreen game, just some guy gettin hit by a barrel and dying.
Do be a Lemay...
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i agree with that technically, the reason i thought it counted was the wording used for the bounties. but looking now it seems i was reading them on donkey blog when i noted it, the wording is different there...
8)
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Regardless of what happens on 22-1...you could stand there and let the first barrel roll into you...or jump into the oil can...you still made it to the kill screen.
Letting the kill screen 'kick in' is something that happens on the kill screen...which I would consider an independent event...seperate from passing 21-6 and making it to 22-1 (the kill screen).
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Regardless of what happens on 22-1...you could stand there and let the first barrel roll into you...or jump into the oil can...you still made it to the kill screen.
Letting the kill screen 'kick in' is something that happens on the kill screen...which I would consider an independent event...seperate from passing 21-6 and making it to 22-1 (the kill screen).
While 22-1 is the board you have to reach to get a kill screen the kill screen by definition does not happen until you are killed by the code bug causing your death 400 timer ticks into the level. This is pretty simple logic. A death on 22-1 before the timer bug kills you is simply another death in your game on the way to activate the 'kill screen' code bug.
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This is sort of like in football when I guy is clearly running home free for a touchdown, and he spikes the ball one foot before crossing the goal line. For all practical purposes he scored a touchdown, let it go, but the rules turn it over and call it a fumble and give the ball back to the other team.
So, with DK, for all practical purposes 22-1 is the killscreen, but just go ahead and "cross that goalline" and let the timer kill you. Don't get crazy and try to back a barrel for the possibility of that extra 100....of course, this only matters if you're playing a tournament that giving a bounty for a killscreen.
But to me, the definition of killscreen is the screen itself, case in point. Pac Man. Once you're there , you're there, it doesn't matter if you get all the dots +9 hidden dot to say you got a pac man killscreen.
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i guess the problem is that 'killscreen' is a general term applied to many games, basically meaning game over...it sounds like its referring to 'the screen' (no doubt originally it was) but exactly what it means will be unique to each game that has one. if they had coined it 'the killbug' it would be clearer, in pacman the whole last screen would be the killbug but in dk its when you time out...
8)
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The King of Kong: A Fistful of Quarters- Killscreen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wY1dkCKZ7Q#)
:)
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I actually claimed the KS in my submission, having read the donkeykongblog post, I was under the assumption I had been the first to reach level 22. But i never heard anything about it, so I figured my submission did not qualify, due to the Lack of a kill screen on the kill screen. I'm not worried about it; Just glad it wasn't my first KS.
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This is sort of like in football when I guy is clearly running home free for a touchdown, and he spikes the ball one foot before crossing the goal line. For all practical purposes he scored a touchdown, let it go, but the rules turn it over and call it a fumble and give the ball back to the other team.
So, with DK, for all practical purposes 22-1 is the killscreen, but just go ahead and "cross that goalline" and let the timer kill you. Don't get crazy and try to back a barrel for the possibility of that extra 100....of course, this only matters if you're playing a tournament that giving a bounty for a killscreen.
But to me, the definition of killscreen is the screen itself, case in point. Pac Man. Once you're there , you're there, it doesn't matter if you get all the dots +9 hidden dot to say you got a pac man killscreen.
It's called the 'split screen' in Pacman. Kill screen in DK and Dig Dug...
No clue whatsoever why the missile command guys in Europe call the 0X bonus boards in Missile Command the 'killscreen'.. nothing close to a killscreen or end of game going on... what da...
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If Ethan didn't get the bounty because he died before timing out, then this is an issue that needs to be addressed before the next tournament. It also means I worded it incorrectly on my blog because I interpreted the rule incorrectly.
There is a debate around the issue of what it means to "reach the kill screen" that we've discussed before (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=108) (and are now discussing again...).
I said this last month, specifically in regard to kill screen bounties in fact, hoping to avoid this exact situation:
If the bounty is intended as "first person to die due to the kill screen bug," it would have to be phrased that way.
It really does!
The ambiguity needs to be totally removed because there's a language issue around the word "screen."
To me and many others, "reach the kill screen" just means "get to 22-1."
I feel that way because, in the context of Donkey Kong, "screen" is one of the standard terms used to refer to any stage/board within a level (Ie, 4-1 is a "barrel screen", 16-4 is a "elevator screen", etc.), and not to something that occurs or appears at some particular point (such as "the Pauline rescue screen").
If the semantics are to be consistent, "kill screen" must refer to the entirety of 22-1, and not specifically to the bug that kills you on 22-1.
Here's a sort of "proof" of my position (at least as it relates to common usage): virtually everyone who talks about what happened "on the kill screen" is referring to 22-1, and the totality of the action that takes place on 22-1, NOT just "the moment that Jumpman dies."
"I smashed 4 barrels on the kill screen," "look at what the timer does on the kill screen", etc.
Such usage wouldn't make sense for anyone who would limit the definition of "reaching the kill screen" to the specific moment when Jumpman dies. Nothing that happens on 22-1 could be said to be happening "on the kill screen" because, by that definition, the player hasn't "reached the kill screen" yet.
So, if a bounty is contingent on the very specific condition that Jumpman has to be killed by the kill screen bug, then it needs to be spelled out with no ambiguity, because the meaning of "reach the kill screen" is not the same for everyone. To most of us, "screen" is identical in meaning to "board" or "stage."
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Chris, you cannot take what people 'say' about something as something. People dont refer to each level in DK as screens typically and its not called the kill level. All those who think just making it to the 'screen' are missing the word that actually makes it special.. thats KILL. Until you are KILLED or can progress no further in the game you have not achieved a killscreen PERIOD.
Do you take the score in a killscreen game when you reach 22-1 or do you take it after your game is over due to the killscreen?
22-1 is part of the normal game and until you are killed by the 'killscreen' bug you are simply playing donkey kong. If you get hit by a barrel its the same as any other board and ends the same as any other game. Its just another level. The difference is the code bug, not the level switching to 22-1
I do agree that they should clarify the language since there seems to be people out there who dont understand what a killscreen is.
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When you make it to 22-1 you will die regardless right? So, in my opinion, you've kill screened regardless of how you go.
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When you make it to 22-1 you will die regardless right? So, in my opinion, you've kill screened regardless of how you go.
You will die on 1-1 when the timer runs out regardless as well... is that a killscreen? No.
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No clue whatsoever why the missile command guys in Europe call the 0X bonus boards in Missile Command the 'killscreen'.. nothing close to a killscreen or end of game going on... what da...
Yeah, that aggravated me too, and I asked Victor about that a few times, not sure why he calls the 0x a killscreen. It was once thought that on tournament setting that it might have been a kill screen, but even that was proved wrong.
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If you reach the last screen of the game it's the killscreen. If you reach the end of the game it's the "End of the game".
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I can definitely understand Ken's viewpoint on this.
And it's true that just because people say that they're "on the kill screen" doesn't mean that they are correct with the language.
I, personally, describe the game as being broken up into "levels" (which is straightforward because of the "L" indicator), but I do call the sub-levels "screens."
I suppose this particular issue is actually a good argument for calling them "boards" or "stages" instead.
Whatever the case, we have to be careful that this doesn't get as bad as The Great "Into Darkness" Debate (http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/films/news/trekkies-take-on-wikis-in-a-grammatical-tizzy-over-star-trek-into-darkness-8475705.html)
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If you reach the last screen of the game it's the killscreen. If you reach the end of the game it's the "End of the game".
If you reach the last screen in the game you've reached the last screen in the game. If the game kills you with no other options its a killscreen.
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Agreed. If you are at the last screen, outcome has no bearing. Doesn't matter how you die. You're there. Nothing else to do. Jump over a few barrels, or don't. You are at the kill screen. You've reached the Donkey Kong apex. Still trying to wrap my head around the semantics of having to wait until the game kills you off.
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Dying by a barrel on the kill screen is the same as a football team kneeling when there is a minute left in the game.
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Dying by a barrel on the kill screen is the same as a football team kneeling when there is a minute left in the game.
About everything in the world wrong with that analogy. If there is 1min left dont mean its game over, if the team hit the 1min mark planning on taking a knee but the qback hits the ball on his knee, fumbles and the other team recovers and runs it back for a TD do we say they won because he has going to take a knee or does the retard qback get fired for getting hit with a barrel before he hits the ground. Its a KILL screen or its a death on 22-1 like any other level. You cant have a killscreen without the code bug and you cant reach the killscreen without activating the code bug, how much clearer can it be????
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I think it might be a red herring to get into an argument about "when the game is over" because this is simpler than that. What we're trying to agree on is terminology.
The question is, what does "reaching the kill screen" mean?
Jumpman gets killed by a timer bug approx. seven seconds into the 117th board (L22-1).
The question is whether the term "kill screen" refers to the board on which the event happens, or to the event itself.
From what I understand, what Ken is saying is that there is no stage/board that "is" the kill screen. In other words, it's not correct to use "kill screen" to refer to L22-1, but rather to the event that happens on that board. By this definition, you have not "reached the kill screen" until Jumpman dies from the timer bug.
Others are saying that "kill screen" is an alternate name for the 117th board. So, a player has "reached the kill screen" the instant the L indicator goes to 22, since, by that definition, the kill screen is a level and not an event.
The latter is the impression I've been under up to now. I thought "kill screen" in Donkey Kong's case just meant "board 117," as opposed to "Jumpman dying due to the timer bug on board 117."
I don't care which meaning of "kill screen" wins out. But as long as bounties are involved, everybody's gonna have to agree on one!
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Holy smokes! This one might end up with the Supremes.
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Thats close to what I am saying but its more than that. L22-1 can be the killscreen and it can also not be the killscreen. You have to meet two criteria. You have to reach level 22-1 because the code bug only happens on that screen AND you have to play longer than 400 bonus timer ticks for KILL portion of the KILLscreen to happen. Until the game kills you off you are playing donkey kong. If you die any other way its game over, no kill screen. If you survive those timer ticks you get killed no matter what you do, THATS the kill screen. Anything else is NOT. A death on 22-1 getting hit by a barrel is the same as a death on 2-1 getting hit by a barrel and I think this is the part that has people confused. As long as gameplay is still POSSIBLE then there is no killscreen. I can see how people can say 22-1 is the screen on which the killscreen happens but calling anything less than death without option a killscreen is just not in line with what is actually happening.
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If you reach the last screen of the game it's the killscreen. If you reach the end of the game it's the "End of the game".
If you reach the last screen in the game you've reached the last screen in the game. If the game kills you with no other options its a killscreen.
And the last screen in the game is called the killscreen. Like someone else said I seen conversations about how people have scored so many points on the killscreen. If I remember correctly no one piped up, and said "Hey that really isn't a killscreen guys." That's because it's regarded as a killscreen. That's because the last screen has always been known as the killscreen, and not the very end point. If we were just referring to the end point than we would call it "The Killpoint".
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Holy smokes! This one might end up with the Supremes.
Super Supremes?
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Seems most agree that 22-1 is the killscreen. Once you pass 21-6, you've made it to the killscreen. How can anyone say you didn't make it to the killscreen, when you did in fact get to 22-1? That's the killscreen.
If you want to tell someone they "didn't let the killscreen kick in", if they die before the bonus timer bug kills Jumpman, sure that's fine.
But you can't tell anyone they didn't get to the killscreen if they passed 21-6.
22-1 is the killscreen. Once you're there, you've got your killscreen...regardless of what happens during the killscreen.
Whomever got to 22-1 first got the first killscreen. I'm pretty sure nothing in the rules said "first person to let the kill screen bug kill you wins the kill screen bounty"...
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My opinion is similar to Ken's in that you haven't really reached the "end" of the game if you aren't killed by the timer on the kill screen. Otherwise you just died playing normal Donkey Kong. There is ambiguity in the term "Kill Screen" since 22-1 is the screen where the end occurs, but if you want to talk about reaching the end of the game, it needs to be a timer death. IMO, "Kill Screen" is just cool lingo meaning you've reached the true end of the game and "beaten" the game. So dying to a barrel doesn't count. If you get to the final boss in a game but die before you kill the final boss, you didn't beat the game (even if it is a really, really easy final boss).
I'll leave the question of whether Ethan should have been eligible for the bounty or not to the organizers.
-George
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Look, think about it this way. Say an actor tells people that they are in the ending scene of a movie. In the movie the scene fades away the last 5 seconds over a neighborhood. Are you going to tell the actor that "Hey you were not in the ending scene because your face was not appearing when the credits were starting to roll. To say such a thing is pure madness.
It's not reaching the killscreen bug
it's not reaching the killscreeen endpoint
It's not reaching the killscreen end
It's reaching the killscreen, which means the moment Mario starts on 22-1
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well its a matter of interpretation, so there is no need for everyone to agree...
im surprised that between 2 KOs and rematches the question had not 'officially' came up, i figured it had and had been settled in favour of just L22 but i guess nobody really thought it would happen...
i think its only logical that the timeout death is the 'default position' for officially getting a killscreen and if the rules needed to spell it out one way or the other then they needed to say that you dont need to timeout, not that you do!
8)
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Look, think about it this way. Say an actor tells people that they are in the ending scene of a movie. In the movie the scene fades away the last 5 seconds over a neighborhood. Are you going to tell the actor that "Hey you were not in the ending scene because your face was not appearing when the credits were starting to roll. To say such a thing is pure madness.
It's not reaching the killscreen bug
it's not reaching the killscreeen endpoint
It's not reaching the killscreen end
It's reaching the killscreen, which means the moment Mario starts on 22-1
Analogy's dont work here. These are unique circumstances. Until you are killed by the game you have not reached the kill screen. Just because some people (even a lot of people) have mistakenly called 22-1 'the killscreen' does not make it match up with facts.
Seems most agree that 22-1 is the killscreen. Once you pass 21-6, you've made it to the killscreen. How can anyone say you didn't make it to the killscreen, when you did in fact get to 22-1? That's the killscreen.
Again, not true, just perception. If you look att he poll here https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=108 (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=108) in fact MOST would not call making it to 22-1 a killscreen.
Regardless of how we feel, the organizers made an immediate and correct decision and I am sure will spell it out more clearly next time.
Seacrest OUT
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There is no right or wrong answer. Killscreen is a term that was coined by gamers/programmers. It is not a real word. I've heard the term used both ways. I myself have used the term both ways:
"Which board is the killscreen?" (a board)
"Which board does the killscreen happen on?" (a bug)
From a purely semantic point of view, killscreen is a compound word where screen is the noun and kill is the adjective. Therefore killscreen is a screen, not a kill. Just like "homework" is work not a home and "airplane" is a plane not air. The bug would be more accurately termed screenkill. Having said that I'm starting a new list:
The Official Unofficial list of Killscreeners who did not Screenkill
(with cause of premature death)
Vincent Lemay (inaugural member and president) - cause of death: greed
Ethan Daniels - overexcitement
Mike Groesbeck - fumbling with the camera
Congrats Ethan for joining Vincent in this prestigious list. Anyone else I'm missing?
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Add me to this list, I am a Killscreener who did not Screenkill.
First DK Kill Screen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kfgs_xFObpI#)
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Add me to this list, I am a Killscreener who did not Screenkill.
Congrats Mike!
Hahaha... I forgot about this one!
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ROFL Hank.
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There is no right or wrong answer. Killscreen is a term that was coined by gamers/programmers. It is not a real word. I've heard the term used both ways. I myself have used the term both ways:
"Which board is the killscreen?" (a board)
"Which board does the killscreen happen on?" (a bug)
From a purely semantic point of view, killscreen is a compound word where screen is the noun and kill is the adjective. Therefore killscreen is a screen, not a kill. Just like "homework" is work not a home and "airplane" is a plane not air. The bug would be more accurately termed screenkill. Having said that I'm starting a new list:
The Official Unofficial list of Killscreeners who did not Screenkill
(with cause of premature death)
Vincent Lemay (inaugural member and president) - cause of death: greed
Ethan Daniels - overexcitement
Mike Groesbeck - fumbling with the camera
Congrats Ethan for joining Vincent in this prestigious list. Anyone else I'm missing?
To quote Ben Affleck in Goodwill Hunting, I say to Ken "How do you like me now?!"
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I think Ken basically convinced me and changed my mind on this.
Since I was defining "kill screen" as the board and only the board, I considered reaching 22-1 as "reaching the kill screen."
However, upon further thought, I don't see any especially good reason to define "kill screen" as the board, or to consider getting to the board as the key moment of significance, whereas there IS definitely a significance in playing until the bug (and not a mistake or a suicide) kills you, since the bug is what incapacitates your ability to play any further.
Sticking to that principle is important: play to the very last second, and be killed when, and only when, the game takes the controls from you.
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There is definitely ambiguity to the term killscreen. Both interpretations are reasonable and there is no answer that is inherently correct. It is up to the community to choose the best definition based on the nature of the screen/the bug, the respect associated with a killscreen and under what circumstances it is deserved, and the objective of the game in general. With that said I think that the definition that should be chosen is that you have killscreened Donkey Kong if you have reached board 22-1, regardless of how you die on the board.
Firstly, the objective of Donkey Kong is to get as many points as possible and a definition should not be chosen that conflicts with this objective. Suppose, for example, a player has a 90% success rate at doing the back-jump over a barrel while grabbing the hammer. If the player chooses to go for the back-jump on the killscreen they get 800 points if they succeed or 200 points if they fail, an expected number of points of 0.9*800 + 0.1*200 = 740. If they choose not to go for the back-jump they get a guaranteed 700. It is mathematically the correct decision to go for the back-jump in this situation, and if they get unlucky and fall into the 10% case they and die, they still deserve all the prestige of reaching a killscreen. If you make the definition of killscreen dying from the actual timeout then a player in this situation is torn between making the decision that they know gives them the most expected number of points and the decision that gives them the recognition of a killscreen.
Also, there is nearly no challenge at all on the killscreen to survive long enough to trigger the screenkill. It's really board 21-6 that is the last of the challenges, after which the player should deserve the recognition of getting a killscreen. If a player really wanted to I think they could even just walk right and climb the broken ladder to get a nearly guaranteed death from screenkill. There is nothing special about doing that that warrants any more recognition than dying in any other way on the killscreen.
Some argue that a player hasn't reached the end of donkey kong unless they have died from timeout on the killscreen. This argument is implicitly associating surviving longer with making it further in the game, an association that makes no sense. Has a player who hides in the lower left corner until timeout really made it further than a player that climbs to the 3rd girder but dies from a barrel? Donkey Kong has never been a game that is purely about survival, it is a game about clearing boards so it would make more sense to consider the true end to be making it as close as possible to the end of the board rather than surviving as long as possible. I would argue that it's silly to make such distinctions and that all games that reach board 22-1 have reached the end of donkey kong.
Also, there's the argument that it's not a killscreen unless you've triggered the specific bug that is the cause of the impossibility of the killscreen. In response to that I would argue that you have triggered the bug as soon as the killscreen starts. The timer is actually set to 400 as soon as the screen starts, and beyond that point it behaves like a normal timer. In other words, dying from timeout on the killscreen is no different from dying from timeout on any other screen, it's the setting of the time at the start of the screen that is the actual bug. Anyone that reaches board 22-1 has triggered this bug.
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Some new wrinkles there...
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Ah yea I like Jeff's argument.
The bug has already been triggered so you can't argue that you need to wait for the 'bug' to kill you...because the bug starts right when 22-1 starts.
That's good, because I didn't want to have to start calling 22-1 "the-screen-where-the-kill-screen-bug-kills-you-screen".
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an expected number of points of 0.9*800 + 0.1*200 = 740. If they choose not to go for the back-jump they get a guaranteed 700.
Getting way off topic, but there's only 75% chance that barrel will control down if controlled (so it should be 0.9*725+0.1*200 vs 625). And actually it's a bit more complicated... sometimes if you don't go for the extra 100 and the 3rd barrel doesn't control down, you can still get it after controlling down the far left ladder (I've had that happen to me). You will usually run out of time before reaching it, but we all know the barrel timer is not regular, even on the killscreen (the board) and sometimes you get a bit longer. If you do a back jump, I'm pretty sure you will never be able to smash the 3rd barrel if it doesn't control down.
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I would argue that you have triggered the bug as soon as the killscreen starts. The timer is actually set to 400 as soon as the screen starts, and beyond that point it behaves like a normal timer.
I also considered that in the earlier thread. I actually went as far as to say that when you see the timer bug out, THAT'S the definitive moment because there's nothing else like it in the game (unlike the time-out death, which looks just like any other time-out death).
The problem is that you still maintain control!
I do think "total loss of player control" is persuasive as a candidate for being the most important criteria in all of this. (So the solution to Mark's proposition is that you haven't truly kill screened until you've lost your last life to the bug, because even if you've already lost lives to it, you still have control.)
Maybe I'll just be "firmly agnostic" about it...
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To quote Ben Affleck in Goodwill Hunting, I say to Ken "How do you like me now?!"
That's almost as epic a FAIL as reaching 22-1 and not getting a killscreen!
It was Matt Damon as Will who said... "Do you like apples?" and Clark says "Yeah" then Will says "Well, I got her number. How do you like them apples?"
Good Will Hunting- Apples (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sf0OFZexRGs#)
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I guess a simple description could be:
What ended your game?
Killscreen or natural death?
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I can't believe you guys would deny Allen killscreener status if he ran straight into a barrel on L=22 (a very distinct possibility). Poor Allen. You brutes.
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I guess a simple description could be:
What ended your game?
Killscreen or natural death?
Scoundrl Likes this
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To quote Ben Affleck in Goodwill Hunting, I say to Ken "How do you like me now?!"
That's almost as epic a FAIL as reaching 22-1 and not getting a killscreen!
It was Matt Damon as Will who said... "Do you like apples?" and Clark says "Yeah" then Will says "Well, I got her number. How do you like them apples?"
Good Will Hunting- Apples (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sf0OFZexRGs#)
Nevermind. Jeff, and Hank make a good argumentation that far exceeds mine. That's my whole point. I am the Donkey Kong ignorant like Ben Affleck is in Good Will Hunting. Hank Chien, and Jeff are the Matt Damon character who actually know what they are talking about! :)
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i certainly wouldnt want to deny anyone the credability of a KS over something so small, but the cutoff needs to be somewhere, anyway who backjumps a barrel on their first KS? its only really relevant for bounties...donkey kong is all about risk vs reward, you should be torn between going for the extra points or surviving a bit longer, its what you did on every other board and what separates us on the leaderboard...
if you want to press the killscreen for extra points there should be a price to pay. i.e... you get put on Hanks list!
8)
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All hail President Vincent.
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it could be a new dk trend, i bet there is a bunch of funny ways to not quiet get a killscreen ;D
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it could be a new dk trend, i bet there is a bunch of funny ways to not quiet get a killscreen ;D
Allen's favorite is to lose all 4 lives before Pauline has a chance to perform the initial pace calculation. It's hilarious.
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Also, there is nearly no challenge at all on the killscreen to survive long enough to trigger the screenkill.
I like the precise usage of terms.
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The Official Unofficial list of Killscreeners who did not Screenkill
(with cause of premature death)
Vincent Lemay (inaugural member and president) - cause of death: greed
Ethan Daniels - overexcitement
Mike Groesbeck - fumbling with the camera
I want to see a revised DK Killscreener Timeline, with an asterisk beside the name of each applicable player. On my desk! By 9:00 AM Monday morning! On second thought, by yesterday!
EDIT: Sorry Hank, just realized I should be yelling at Chris, not you.
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Nevermind. Jeff, and Hank make a good argumentation that far exceeds mine. That's my whole point. I am the Donkey Kong ignorant like Ben Affleck is in Good Will Hunting. Hank Chien, and Jeff are the Matt Damon character who actually know what they are talking about! :)
They made some points that seem logical but do not hold up to the reality of the killscreen issue. They make assumptions and speak in hypotheticals that are not really relevant.
When stripped of all that it comes down to what Dave said.. Did you die or did the game kill you. Simple. Game.. Set... Match. ANYTHING other than that is subject to interpretation... the meaning of screen, the compound word, the bug has already showed on the screen.. NONE of it matters. Did the game kill you or did you die for any other reason. If you die for any reason you could die on on any other level you die and did not reach the end of the game, commonly called the killscreen. If you reached the point where you the player can no longer continue for reasons beyond your control you have reached the killscreen.
Again... Did you die or did the game kill you? The answer is your answer.
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you guys are too funny
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I'm not saying I disagree with you Ken and Dave. I can argue this either way. My argument was purely a semantical one. Killscreen is a term invented by gamers hence it can mean whatever we want it to mean. Just to play devil's advocate:
You are saying to reach the killscreen the game must kill you off...
Does pacman have a killscreen? Does the game actually kill you off?
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Does pacman have a killscreen? Does the game actually kill you off?
Pacmans splitscreen does not technically kill you. It is however impassable as far we know effectively making it a killscreen. I think most of the top players call it the split screen not the kill screen FWIW.
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The Dig Dug kill screen is a lot simpler. You get there and you're dead!
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The Dig Dug kill screen is a lot simpler. You get there and you're dead!
I think i saw that screen one time ;)
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The reason I first asked this was because of a drunk debate with my friends.
I was arguing the fact that your dead anyway so who cares it's a kill screen. Then my mate posed the question to me about digdug, if you lose your last man on the last enemy on the screen being crushed by a rock, 1 screen before the kill screen can you say you made it cause either way you were dead anyway? I answered no you f'ed it up. Then he replied then what makes dk any different. That's what made me change to the fact that the bug has to kill you.
I'm still not sure tho cause you activate the bug as soon as lvl 22 starts, but if you die before it . Was the bug there?
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I understand both sides of the argument. I was about 70 odd boards off a killscreen, but I assumed the a killscreen bounty would mean seeing the the killscreen bug occur.
If, and it's a very big if, I ever make it to level 22-1 and die before I see the bug I would not consider that I killscreened the game and I would also be throwing various pieces of computer gear around the room after dying before seeing it.
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It funny how much this topic is going because I would say the percent chance of someone dying on the kill screen before it times out is about 1% or less. Its just the weirdest thing that it happened on a bounty, otherwise this discussion would have probably never come up.
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To me I personally think the score is more important than the killscreen. I would rather have a million point game with no killscreen over an 850,000 point with a killscreen. Of course the game I am best at is DK3, and that is the one where there is no real killscreen. I get the beauty of having to become more, and more technical with your game because there is a killscreen, but the killscreen itself is not the end all, and be all of the game.
The killscreen to me is the cherry on top on the banana split sundae. Even without the cherry the banana split sundae is still awesome!
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yeah i dont really care either way, its just an interesting debate, should probably be split to its own thread...
8)
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first person to reach the kill screen. 22-1 is the kill screen. 1-1 is the first screen of the game.
If one reached the kill screen with two lives, the kill screen glitch takes the first, then the player loses the last life accidentally, then what?
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It funny how much this topic is going because I would say the percent chance of someone dying on the kill screen before it times out is about 1% or less. Its just the weirdest thing that it happened on a bounty, otherwise this discussion would have probably never come up.
^this
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first person to reach the kill screen. 22-1 is the kill screen. 1-1 is the first screen of the game.
If one reached the kill screen with two lives, the kill screen glitch takes the first, then the player loses the last life accidentally, then what?
Very good point.
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We all agree that a killscreen must reach board 22-1, but to make distinctions beyond that point is subject to interpretation. So to me the most important criterion in deciding whether or not the player must die by timeout is respect. Killscreen is really a label of recognition that the community assigns to certain remarkable games that have reached the end of donkey kong. In order to argue that the player must die by timeout for a killscreen then you really need to argue that under all circumstances a player that dies from timeout deserves much more respect than a player that dies any other way on 22-1. I have not seen anyone give this argument. I have given specific examples where a player that dies from timeout does not deserve any more respect than a player that dies from other causes.
Also, something else to think about: If the killscreen were instead because of a giant wall of spikes in front of Pauline's ladder would the player be required to die by jumping into the wall of spikes? What if the wall of spikes was invisible? What is the difference between that and death by timeout on the real killscreen?
When stripped of all that it comes down to what Dave said.. Did you die or did the game kill you. Simple. Game.. Set... Match. ANYTHING other than that is subject to interpretation
Dying and being killed by the game are the same thing. I assume you mean, "Did you die by timeout or did you die for other reasons". Some here have interpreted that to be the correct definition of killscreen while others have not so it is by definition subject to interpretation. The only thing that's not subject to interpretation is that the killscreen must happen on 22-1.
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"KS or not KS, that is the question: whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the spin of the KS bug, or to take arms against the wild barrel, and by opposing end them: to die, to sleep No more; and by sleep to say we end the game, and the thousand Natural shocks that the death is heir to?
Sorry, I couldn't resist :P
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I just looked at the killscreen, and was reminded of one thing. Yes the bug kicks in right at the beginning, but you don't visually die because the timer timed out, the timer starts at 4000 after the bug, and you die when the timer is at 3700. It's a behind the scenes bug that still kills you at 3700 due to a calculation rollover.
For some reason, I was OK with the description of saying the bug happens as soon as you start, and you're left with 0500 after the bug. BUt, now I reminded myself that you die with 3700 left on the timer. Sure it's a behind the scenes timer that actually kills you, but thats a non-visual bug going on.
This is just a quick DK killscreen someone put up using a MAME cheat to demonstrate.
Donkey Kong Kill Screen on Level 22 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmkhXdSC62w#)
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If one reached the kill screen with two lives, the kill screen glitch takes the first, then the player loses the last life accidentally, then what?
Then he's a dumbass.
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If one reached the kill screen with two lives, the kill screen glitch takes the first, then the player loses the last life accidentally, then what?
Then he's a dumbass.
Still it happens. Seems that what you do is state your opinion as matter of fact, and be dismissive when someone puts up a good point.
By the way, why are you so vested in this? You really haven't spent a ton of time at the game, and I don't think you have aspirations to ever be one of the best in this game either. Your calling card is Dig Dug. This would be akin to Hank Chien spouting off on what the end of the game of Dig Dug should be called. It's really not his place to say much about it since he is nowhere near as knowledgeable in the game as you are in it. Don't you think the master Dig Dug players should be the ones who should decide what they call certain aspects in their game, and don't you think Master Donkey Kong players should be the ones who decide what they call certain aspects of their game?
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OK my closing thoughts... I do like a good debate but this is getting out of hand!
If you go back and re-read this thread, in nearly every instance the word "killscreen" is used, it is referring to the board, not the bug. People on both sides of the argument are using killscreen to refer to the board. Some instances are ambiguous. We are using one word to refer to 2 different entities. I already proposed renaming the bug to screenkill since it makes more sense semantically. Also we more commonly talk about the board and we are already referring to the board as the killscreen. I think that would solve everything.
Getting back to the whole point of this debate. I do believe the organizers of the WC rematch intended you to reach the screenkill for the bounty. In the original rules "- $50 for the first person to reach a kill screen" could be interpreted either way. I don't think they cheated Ethan out of the bounty but were just following what they intended the rules to be. Good thing this didn't happen to Jeff when he attemped the backjump at KO2. Otherwise Vincent would have gotten the 1st screenkill!
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If one reached the kill screen with two lives, the kill screen glitch takes the first, then the player loses the last life accidentally, then what?
Then he's a dumbass.
Still it happens. Seems that what you do is state your opinion as matter of fact, and be dismissive when someone puts up a good point.
By the way, why are you so vested in this? You really haven't spent a ton of time at the game, and I don't think you have aspirations to ever be one of the best in this game either. Your calling card is Dig Dug. This would be akin to Hank Chien spouting off on what the end of the game of Dig Dug should be called. It's really not his place to say much about it since he is nowhere near as knowledgeable in the game as you are in it. Don't you think the master Dig Dug players should be the ones who should decide what they call certain aspects in their game, and don't you think Master Donkey Kong players should be the ones who decide what they call certain aspects of their game?
You want a real answer to the word game that is "If one reached the kill screen with two lives, the kill screen glitch takes the first, then the player loses the last life accidentally, then what?" ok here it is..
If you reach the killscreen with 2 men left and you run out of time and die, you run out of time and die. You then move on to your last life just as if you had died on 21-5 or 2-1 or any other level. You then lose that life of your own accord not due to the game killing you so its not a killscreen. You have to meet all the criteria, not just pick and choose and throw out oddball scenerios. Since you didnt sack your guy for the points on 21-6.. you are a Dumbass!
As for me being a dig dug player and not a DK player and being vested.. you wanna be the kettle or the pot?
Additionally I am a referee for Aurcade.com's scoreboard as well as likely being a referee in some capacity at the new Twin Galaxies with talks underway of my home arcade being a sanctioned Twin Galaxies location.
"How do you like them Apples"
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Well first off Ken, you may not know this, but a person who I think agrees with you, Eric Tessler, actually went into Level 22-1 with two men left intentionally.
Second off, when it comes to the standards I set out, I am no means a kettle or a pot. I have spent a significant amount of time on Donkey Kong (I am just a slow learner on the game). Second I do have aspirations to be one of the best Donkey Kong players out there (Again I am just a slow learner of the game). Third, I actually have said that Hank's, and Jeff's opinion is far more significant than mine on the issue of Donkey Kong, and I am just low lying fruit.
Lastly, being a referee for Twin Galaxies, or Aurcade is not much of a qualification on talking about the finer details of Donkey Kong. Neither is having your arcade sactioned as a site for Twin Galaxies a good example for knowledge of Donkey Kong.
In this video is an example of a whole bunch non Donkey Kong experts talking about how they think Steve Wiebe's video game tape is proof of him cheating because of certain moves he does. Any expert in the game has found this video as comedy gold because of the wild incorrect assertions of what they are saying. This video also has a couple of Twin Galaxies refs in the audience at the time as well.
Steve weibe Donkey kong review from funspot 2007 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdTjaF1eEqo#)
Ken you definitely are an Alpha male of the arcade world. I'll give you that, hands down. That's why anyone is giving you any weight at all to what you are saying in this thread. But the reality of the matter is just like me, you are far from an expert in this game. All qualifications to be certified as a ref or official Twin Galaxies arcade owner does not change that fact.
By the way, most likely you will probably get the job as ref, and have your arcade certified by Twin Galaxies, and you are super qualified for both things in my opinion.
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I know it doesnt show because I rarely play DK but I am a pretty good player with a score in the 450's and the ability to score 55k l5+ levels when i am focused. I have been around since the original 'million point march' thread on TG, have read and understand Don Hodges write up on the killscreen bug and have watched and interacted with the top players over the last several years. I am not just a novice spouting things out without any background.
Granted I am better at Dig Dugs game play but I would say I actually know MORE about Donkey Kong than I do about Dig Dug and definitely FAR more that the average player.
Those idiots in that video are funny, and it is as you say comedy GOLD. I am not one of those guys.
Lets not make this personal George. I like you.
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Also, something else to think about: If the killscreen were instead because of a giant wall of spikes in front of Pauline's ladder would the player be required to die by jumping into the wall of spikes? What if the wall of spikes was invisible? What is the difference between that and death by timeout on the real killscreen?
This is a what if and not a real situation and has no significance whatsoever.
Dying and being killed by the game are the same thing.
Thats not true, one you have control over and one you do not. This is at the heart of the issue and cannot be overlooked, minimized or skirted around with cleverly worded analogies that are not accurate representations of the situation.
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OK, Ken truce. Truth be told, I probably would not even go with the "your no expert" argument if I was actually "An expert" myself. I just decided to try to Kamakazi both arguments by slamming my argument airplane in your argument ship.
Truth be told this is really all about semantics, and like someone said if someone didn't lose a prize because of a killscreen fail, none of this would have mattered. If I wasn't so poor, I would say screw it, and simply offer the guy $50 out of my own pocket in a gesture to say he deserved the reward even if he didn't get the the contest $50.
I like you to man, and I probably did cross some line even if I was simultaneously ripping on myself. So sorry about the Kamakazi argument tactics.
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OK, Ken truce.
Truce
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I like you
I like you
Ken and George are sittin' in a tree..
Gross! Get a room you two.
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Ken and George are sittin' in a tree..
Gross! Get a room you two.
At the Man Hole.
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first person to reach the kill screen. 22-1 is the kill screen. 1-1 is the first screen of the game.
Mike G said something similar, so I would reiterate what I said earlier, since this is a key issue in the debate. There's a problem around the interchangeability of "screen" with "board" when referring to Donkey Kong sub-levels.
"Screen" doesn't necessarily mean "board" in the context of the specific phrase "kill screen," but maybe it does, and that's the issue: whether "kill screen" means "board 117", or "the moment of timeout death on board 117".
Sure it's a behind the scenes timer that actually kills you, but thats a non-visual bug going on.
I'd say that the "100" that pops up very briefly before the 4000 is definitely buggy-looking!
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Also, something else to think about: If the killscreen were instead because of a giant wall of spikes in front of Pauline's ladder would the player be required to die by jumping into the wall of spikes? What if the wall of spikes was invisible? What is the difference between that and death by timeout on the real killscreen?
This is a what if and not a real situation and has no significance whatsoever.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe your opinion on the matter has come from the fact that you have a notion of what a killscreen is in general and you've applied that notion to donkey kong to decide what the true killscreen of donkey kong is. If this is the case, then to better understand and evaluate that notion I would find it extremely helpful to have it applied to other games as well as hypothetical killscreens such as the one I described.
Dying and being killed by the game are the same thing.
Thats not true, one you have control over and one you do not. This is at the heart of the issue and cannot be overlooked, minimized or skirted around with cleverly worded analogies that are not accurate representations of the situation.
Okay, so what you mean to say is that the deciding factor is: "When the player died were they in control or were they not in control of their death". That is a little better but I'm still confused at what you mean by control. If I jump up and land on a barrel, then you could say that I was not in control because for every frame that I was in the air there was nothing I could do to avoid the death. Also, death by timeout can be delayed by jumping up in the air so is the player then required to jump up in the air right before timing out, because otherwise they were still in control and could have survived longer by jumping (assuming they weren't carrying the hammer)?
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Welcome to season 3 of word games with Jeff...
Correct me if I'm wrong
Ok, you are wrong. I am basing my position on the Donkey Kong killscreen solely on the Donkey Kong killscreen and its details. Its you and a few others that are drawing parallels with other situations and games that are not relevant to THIS games killscreen.
That is a little better but I'm still confused at what you mean by control.
Of course you are.
If I jump up and land on a barrel, then you could say that I was not in control because for every frame that I was in the air there was nothing I could do to avoid the death.
You made the decision to jump and when to jump so you decided when you played donkey kong based on its ruleset when you land. If thats on a barrel, its player error (unless you did it on purpose for some reason which would still be in your control) no matter what level you are on (even 22-1). That player error caused your death, before the game bug caused your death so its GAME OVER, on level xx-1 by player error (or lack of player chosing to continue game play).
Also, death by timeout can be delayed by jumping up in the air so is the player then required to jump up in the air right before timing out, because otherwise they were still in control and could have survived longer by jumping (assuming they weren't carrying the hammer)?
You can jump or not, thats your descision. If you land on a barrel doing it and the game ends then its GAME OVER due to player error. If you jump over it yah jeff, if you jump air and last a few frames longer yah jeff. The outcome is still respectively the same.
Stay tuned for Season 4...
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I just looked at the killscreen, and was reminded of one thing. Yes the bug kicks in right at the beginning, but you don't visually die because the timer timed out, the timer starts at 4000 after the bug, and you die when the timer is at 3700. It's a behind the scenes bug that still kills you at 3700 due to a calculation rollover.
For some reason, I was OK with the description of saying the bug happens as soon as you start, and you're left with 0500 after the bug. BUt, now I reminded myself that you die with 3700 left on the timer. Sure it's a behind the scenes timer that actually kills you, but thats a non-visual bug going on.
I had to go remind myself exactly what the kill screen looked like as well when I first saw this thread. If the timer clearly showed 0500 and counted down from there, I would be more open to the notion that just reaching 22-1 was enough to prove you reached "the end". However given the timer lies and appears to give you enough time to finish the board changes things for me. Here are a couple of additional ideas I'll throw out:
1) How do you really 100% KNOW it is going to be a kill screen if you don't play the board out and let the timer actually kill you early? I mean, maybe you don't even realize you're playing on a board set where the code is slightly different than what has been analyzed by Don Hodges and sometimes the kill screen doesn't kick in or it is altogether fixed? Or maybe everybody has missed something in the code analysis and there is a weird case where the kill screen timer won't kill you? Or maybe an electrical glitch will occur, corrupt the timer memory location, and you'll miraculously get extra time and can pass the screen. If you get killed by a barrel you'll never know. You haven't "proven" it is really a kill screen if you don't actually have the timer expire.
2) In line with (1) above, if anybody from the general public is watching, and you die from a barrel, are they going to believe you when you tell them it was the kill screen anyway? Remember, the timer looks like you still had plenty of time to finish the board. Lets say your are being broadcast live on G4 and you die on 22-1 getting hit by a barrel. Is everybody really going to be satisified being told "well that was the kill screen" if they don't get to actually see the kill screen screenkill you?
That being said, anybody that can get to 22-1 obviously has 100% of the skill to get a screenkill. However even though it is "trivial" to get once you've cleared the 21-6 rivets, we've already identified at least 3 cases where the players unintentionally died on 22-1 before the screenkill, most notably in the Wildcard Rematch #2. So it can and does happen, so I agree that it worth clearly defining the terms, especially when bounties are being offered.
Finally, while being able to say you are a "kill screen" player or that a given game was a "kill screen" is a mark of recognition, the ultimate recognition for the game is and should be the score achieved. If there are two games that both score 1,000,000 and one of them gets a screenkill and the other ends on 19-6, the non kill-screen game is clearly the much better game and will receive more recognition as such. Similarly if there is a player that has scored 1,100,000 but has never had a kill screen and there is another player that has a high of 810K but has had a kill screen, the first player should and will be recognized as the better player.
-George
PS - I disagree with Ken about what happens if you get to 22-1 with more than one life left. As long as you hit the timer with at least one of them, I'd give you full credit.
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That player error caused your death, before the game bug caused your death so its GAME OVER, on level xx-1 by player error (or lack of player chosing to continue game play).
You can jump or not, thats your descision. If you land on a barrel doing it and the game ends then its GAME OVER due to player error. If you jump over it yah jeff, if you jump air and last a few frames longer yah jeff. The outcome is still respectively the same.
So it sounds from this that it's not really about control but just about whether or not the death was caused by timeout.
Thats not true, one you have control over and one you do not. This is at the heart of the issue and cannot be overlooked, minimized or skirted around with cleverly worded analogies that are not accurate representations of the situation.
But here you say control is at the heart of the issue.
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Thats all you got kid?
This show has been canceled.
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I'm just trying to better understand your opinion by getting clarification on a point of confusion. I want to know is it or is it not all about control?
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You have to meet all the criteria
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I'm looking for a yes or a no.
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You have to meet all the criteria
You are a smart kid and I have great respect for you as a player so before this turns into a trolling match which I will DEFINITELY WIN, I'm going to bow out. I've made my case as thoroughly and clearly as I can. Its all there for you to review if it is that important to you. PM me if you really need clarification on anything I have said and I will do my best to accommodate.
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I'll try one last time. The question is:
Is not being in control of death a significant property that distinguishes death from timeout on level 22-1 as a killscreen as opposed to death by any other means?
That particular quote comes from a totally unrelated paragraph that never mentions control anywhere.
Edit: Ok, so if you don't want to continue the discussion that's fine. I have no intention of participating in a trolling match. I was just asking because it's not clear to me based on your past posts so I wanted clarification.
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To specifically answer that question... Control over the action that caused your death is important but not the only factor. I did cover this from several angles in more than one message but that should be specific enough for your question. Anything else lets take to PM
-Ken
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id say that because the game has a specific endpoint (death for no obvious reason) then you ought to be there to see it...
i learned of the killscreen from KOK, so to me 'getting one' is all about jumpman 'up and dieing' on you, im kinda surprised this isnt near unanimous, but iv never thought people were using wrong terminology describing L22 as the killscreen, lots of words have different meanings depending how you say them...
8)
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Yep most of learned of this from the KOK Movie.
If your not into these games don'nt bring up to people about points per screen. Point Pressing, and the Kill Screen.
They will look at you and say what is all that!
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I have been busy with work lately I havent been on here or knew what debate was going on. In my own opinion it isn't a kill screen game unless the kill screen kicks in. When Vincent died on the kill screen I didn't consider it a kill screen game since that death could have happened on any barrel board.
But as far as the wild card rematch 2 goes it stated for the bounty "The first person to REACH the kill screen" I took it as just making it to that point and it wouldnt matter if it kicked in or not. When Ethan died I figured he would still have the bounty because of the way it was worded. Since it is Eric and John's event that they were kind enough to host I would agree with their decision either way since there are opinions and grey areas in this debate. We should just keep this in mind for future events where occurrences like this are possible and how to handle them. What if someone had spare men going into the kill screen? Would all their lives need to end by the kill screen? Just one? Or just the last one?
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I'll throw in my two cents.
I agree that this is all about semantics regarding what we think a word means which was invented by our own community. To me, it all comes down to what do we think people meant by this term back in the early 2000's or before -- when the term was first "widely" used, and when it became a more mainstream term by its usage in the KOK movie. In other words, what did THEY mean when they used the word (or phrase) "killscreen" (or "kill screen") in the movie?
"Hey, there's a potential Donkey Kong kill screen coming up if anyone's interested..."
In my opinion, if you really think about what those guys were saying in the movie when they said "kill screen", it simply means "the screen on which you are killed". So, the kill screen is screen 22-1.
With that being said, Ken's points are well taken. I will agree that in order to "get to the end of the game", or to "beat the game", you need to play until you are killed by the Timer bug. (In my opinion, having any one of your men killed in this manner qualifies as beating the game.) Having a list such as "Official, unofficial list of kill screen players" creates sort of a gray area and should simply be qualified specifically by the list creator -- are we recognizing all players who have reached 22-1 or are we recognizing all players who have reached the end of the game? Again, in my opinion, these two things are not the same. I suppose if there exists any players who have reached 22-1 and who have NEVER reached the end of the game on ANY of their games ever, perhaps they could be included on such a list with an asterik which explains that this person did not reach the end of the game. I dunno.
So, yes, these are two different things. But I believe that the term kill screen refers to screen 22-1.
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Thread won't be complete until we get Cat's opinion.
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Also, something else to think about: If the killscreen were instead because of a giant wall of spikes in front of Pauline's ladder would the player be required to die by jumping into the wall of spikes? What if the wall of spikes was invisible? What is the difference between that and death by timeout on the real killscreen?
This is a what if and not a real situation and has no significance whatsoever.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe your opinion on the matter has come from the fact that you have a notion of what a killscreen is in general and you've applied that notion to donkey kong to decide what the true killscreen of donkey kong is. If this is the case, then to better understand and evaluate that notion I would find it extremely helpful to have it applied to other games as well as hypothetical killscreens such as the one I described.
Dying and being killed by the game are the same thing.
Thats not true, one you have control over and one you do not. This is at the heart of the issue and cannot be overlooked, minimized or skirted around with cleverly worded analogies that are not accurate representations of the situation.
Okay, so what you mean to say is that the deciding factor is: "When the player died were they in control or were they not in control of their death". That is a little better but I'm still confused at what you mean by control. If I jump up and land on a barrel, then you could say that I was not in control because for every frame that I was in the air there was nothing I could do to avoid the death. Also, death by timeout can be delayed by jumping up in the air so is the player then required to jump up in the air right before timing out, because otherwise they were still in control and could have survived longer by jumping (assuming they weren't carrying the hammer)?
Good point Jeff.
If Ken's whole argument is that you must play until the very end...or you didn't make it to the killscreen, then yea, now we need to jump in the air to extend the length of the game for another second, because otherwise you were still in control when you died...and you could have avoided your death by jumping and lasting for another second...right?
So, nobody has killscreened Donkey Kong. Wow. Mind blown.
Thinking ahead...we will need someone to work on a simple "killscreen timer" that beeps to let you know when you need to jump in the air to extend the game another second to reach the killscreen.
Even further thinking...will using said timing device that beeps disqualify a killscreen? Will you need to memorize the timing of when the killscreen bug kicks in...and jump from memory to reach a killscreen?
Maybe we should move this debate to another thread. "Killscreen Bug Beeping Timer Assisting Devices - Yay or Nay?"
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You know, what if someone did jump and extend the game another second...what would happen?
Would the bug be canceled out?
Would you be allowed to continue and finish the killsc...22-1?
Then what would happen on 22-2? Same bug, you'd have to use the beeping timer thing on every stage after that?
Maybe we are onto something here...probably not, but maybe?
If nothing else, like Billy once said when talking about his ongoing $100,000 bounty for anyone that can pass the split screen, "The truth is I'd be happy about it. Even if I had to give up my own score. I wouldn't even mind paying the bouty. Because that would only mean that there's something new to experience about Pac-Man. And who wouldn't pay $100,000 for that?"
Maybe nobody knows where the end of Donkey Kong truly is?
Perhaps nobody has killscreened, or screenkilled Donkey Kong yet.
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To quote Ben Affleck in Goodwill Hunting, I say to Ken "How do you like me now?!"
That's almost as epic a FAIL as reaching 22-1 and not getting a killscreen!
It was Matt Damon as Will who said... "Do you like apples?" and Clark says "Yeah" then Will says "Well, I got her number. How do you like them apples?"
Good Will Hunting- Apples (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sf0OFZexRGs#)
Just to keep everything on the up and up, Ben Affleck does say, "How do you like me now!", in the movie. He says it right after Will gets done embarrassing the pony tail guy with his history book quotes.
So I'm not sure why the 'apples' quote was brought up.
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...we need to jump in the air to extend the length of the game for another second, because otherwise you were still in control when you died...and you could have avoided your death by jumping and lasting for another second...right?
With this in mind, if there is ever a Crazy Kong killscreen bounty put up someone better be very explicit about the rules. Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but I think that you can "warp" to the next screen when you are on 'the screen that contains the timer bug'. The next screen also has the timer bug, but you can warp to get there.
Also, when the next Crap Tourney starts up and Bill puts up a bounty for the first Donkey Kong Jr (Moon Cresta Hardware) killscreen, that it is understood that no one knows when the killscreen occurs, or if one even exists. It is conventional wisdom in the Donkey Kong Jr (Moon Cresta Hardware) playing community that the "killscreen" occurs at L5-4. This is definitely not the case.
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im sure youd die as soon as you hit the deck Mike. i made a no killscreen rom for mame, havent played past the killscreen but i understand the levels stop incrementing at 99 but the game just keeps going...
8)
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To quote Ben Affleck in Goodwill Hunting, I say to Ken "How do you like me now?!"
That's almost as epic a FAIL as reaching 22-1 and not getting a killscreen!
It was Matt Damon as Will who said... "Do you like apples?" and Clark says "Yeah" then Will says "Well, I got her number. How do you like them apples?"
Good Will Hunting- Apples (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sf0OFZexRGs#)
Just to keep everything on the up and up, Ben Affleck does say, "How do you like me now!", in the movie. He says it right after Will gets done embarrassing the pony tail guy with his history book quotes.
So I'm not sure why the 'apples' quote was brought up.
EPIC face palm. I actually rewatched that scene before I posted that but stopped when the pony tale dude walked away missing Bens 'How do you like me now?!" by a second or two. Sorry George.
Guess I should have waited until the actual end of the scene (the killscene??) so I didnt look like such a dumbass...