Donkey Kong Forum

General Donkey Kong Discussion => General Donkey Kong Discussion => Topic started by: ChrisP on April 04, 2015, 01:43:22 pm

Title: No hammer rules change!
Post by: ChrisP on April 04, 2015, 01:43:22 pm: As some of you will remember from last year, during my no-hammer March Madness game against <Tim>, in the process of avoiding some awkwardly-spaced barrels on L4, I accidentally grabbed a hammer and got the instant DQ. Clearly that sucked.

Last night while grinding for the tourney, in a moment of pure brain-farting idiocy, inexplicably and unfathomably (<Sanders>), for reasons that I will never understand, I grabbed a hammer on L10 rivets. I don't know how or why I did this, since it was the bottom hammer, and the rivet to the right had already been cleared, thus making the hammer useless for any purpose. The real problem, though, is that I was above 300K and still on my second man FailFish.

I kept going for a while (ending on a very poorly-played L12) and had a good, long whinge about the rules.

I do think that this is a legitimate topic for discussion. Should we really be automatically DQing no-hammer games where a hammer accidentally gets grabbed, even when the player does not use the hammer to his advantage? IMO, we should not.

Generally speaking, Donkey Kong allows four "mistakes" (deaths) per run. But with the current no-hammer rules, we have a situation where one mistake can kill multiple remaining lives at once, as well as nullifying the entire run up to that point (why? Grabbing a hammer on one board in no way invalidates all the hammerless boards already played). Rule just seems unnecessarily strict and has no practical justification, in a variant that's already hard enough as it is.

Personally, I think a forced suicide of the current life is sufficiently punitive and much more reasonable: if you grab a hammer, kill off your guy and restart the board. That simple. This can't be "gamed" in any way that I can think of, allows for temporary mind-boners and control malfunctions, and doesn't unnecessarily nuke otherwise valid runs.

Changing this rule also wouldn't hurt anyone or any scores in a retroactive sense, at least as far as I know. (In other words, historically, there has never been some epic or potentially epic no-hammer run that got ruined with a hammer grab (except maybe mine last night FailFish).

Curious to see what DKF thinks!
Title: Re: No hammer rules change!
Post by: WCopeland on April 04, 2015, 03:16:41 pm: It may be best if we can change our votes here. Jeff and Jon are really the experts, and whatever they say might cause our positions to evolve.
Title: Re: No hammer rules change!
Post by: Adam_Mon on April 04, 2015, 03:25:22 pm: Quote from: WCopeland on April 04, 2015, 03:16:41 pm
It may be best if we can change our votes here. Jeff and Jon are really the experts, and whatever they say might cause our positions to evolve.

I agree,

I voted to accept scores up until a hammer grab, but the guys who have piled hours into developing this variation should get the last word, (Since I cant change my vote deduct 1 vote from the 2nd option on the poll)
Title: Re: No hammer rules change!
Post by: Fast Eddie on April 04, 2015, 03:33:12 pm: Interesting point Chris, i would agree that the instant DQ rule is not the 'fairest' rule on the player, and it seems unnecessarily harsh.

However i like the rule. Maybe i would feel different if id had a big game ruined by a hammer grab, but i think its a cool aspect of the track. I like the danger of jumping near hammers, or having to sometimes just die rather than press jump, against your better instincts. You can just feel your finger twitching sometimes under the middle rivet hammer! I like all that <confused>

Id be interested to hear from <Mruczek> why he decided to make the rule.

I would vote to keep the rules as they are. Its a fair question though, and i dont mind the rules being changed if the community votes for it...

8)
Title: Re: No hammer rules change!
Post by: Fast Eddie on April 04, 2015, 03:44:03 pm: If the rule was all points up to a hammer grab count, it would not spoil the track in any way that i can see. And that seems logical and fair...

I just plain like the rule :D

Anyone who likes the track should get an equal vote tho...

8)
Title: Re: No hammer rules change!
Post by: ChrisP on April 04, 2015, 04:31:45 pm: What I propose is this: if you accidentally grab the hammer, you still have one chance to save the game by killing your guy before the hammer expires, though if you smash anything, it's game over (because at that point you'll have gained points by use of the hammer, which I think is a better place to draw the line, and keeps this from being a slippery slope).

Quote from: Fast Eddie on April 04, 2015, 03:33:12 pm
i think its a cool aspect of the track. I like the danger of jumping near hammers

Under my proposed rule, that aspect would still be there. It would still be dangerous, since the current life would need to be sacrificed immediately, just not excessively dangerous the way it is now!

I think that the "no hammer challenge" should really be thought of more as the "no hammer *smashes* challenge", because IMO, that's ultimately the core of what the variant is about - it's about not being able to protect yourself with the hammer. Swinging the hammer around for a few seconds while you look for a place to die doesn't do anything in your favor. The board will just be a do-over (or not, if it's your last life), same as if you'd died by running into a firefox or falling through a rivet hole.

DQ'ing the whole game just because of a hammer grab is really overdoing it. Weird stuff happens, and I don't just mean mental mistakes. If a player is on a major tear, like 700K on their second man, and they drop something that accidentally whacks their jump button at the wrong time, or the cat hits it, or whatever, does it really make sense to invalidate the whole performance?

Yes, it's unlikely, but talking about this stuff now keeps awkward situations from arising later! :) As Ross said while watching me last night, after my megaderp: "play this out to the killscreen and all ass will break loose."

With Donkey Kong the "spirit of the game" is that you get a few chances to screw up and still forge ahead. Only four screw-ups, but there really isn't any equivalent, in any other play variant, for totally invalidating an entire run. The requirement that 1-1 be completed in order for a 1-1 score to count is the closest comparison, but that's very different, in the sense that having to complete the board actually dictates what kind of scores are possible. Not having to finish can be exploited, and would change the strategy, so there can actually be a material difference in the outcome.

Grabbbing a hammer, immediately suiciding, and replaying the board though? That's no different than just dying some other way and replaying it. I've made much, much dumber mistakes in Donkey Kong than the one I made in the game against Tim, and I was appropriately penalized for them with a loss of a single life. I would say "DQ" is a disproportionate penalty for an in-game mistake.

Quote from: Fast Eddie on April 04, 2015, 03:33:12 pm
Maybe i would feel different if id had a big game ruined by a hammer grab,

Ha! Trust me. "Everything is fine as it is" is a very easy thing to say for people who this has never happened to! When your nasty moment comes, you're instantly gonna start rethinking this thread... Kappa
Title: Re: No hammer rules change!
Post by: VON on April 04, 2015, 04:49:47 pm: I voted to keep the rule as is because I feel to retroactively change the rule in any way would be unfair to the players who slaved away under the current ruleset. Also, I feel that No Hammer is supposed to be harsh, and avoiding the hammer at all costs is part of the challenge in the variant - lessening the penalty for grabbing a hammer would reduce the difficulty.

Lastly, ChrisP's mind-boners are as hilarious to me as they are painful to him. :D
Title: Re: No hammer rules change!
Post by: ChrisP on April 04, 2015, 04:53:43 pm: Quote from: VON on April 04, 2015, 04:49:47 pm
Lastly, ChrisP's mind-boners are as hilarious to me as they are painful to him. :D

I've only done this twice, and YOU were there both times! <mad>

Anyway, I see where this poll is going, and I accept and embrace the consensus.

And this will just make it all the more satisfying when it happens to somebody else. Just know that you won't have ol' ChrisP crying in the corner with you. I'll be nodding at you quietly, with this face: ;D
Title: Re: No hammer rules change!
Post by: Milehighdt on April 04, 2015, 05:08:30 pm: I feel the DQ is too severe a penalty and modified that rule in the past for the No-Hammer tournaments. The ending of the game at a hammer grab seems best (not TG harsh but big). Hank put forth this idea last year (loss of man, not game) and I can see the logic of a smaller penalty but I think it goes against the spirit of the game variant. I'll be interested in seeing what the community says.
Title: Re: No hammer rules change!
Post by: stella_blue on April 04, 2015, 06:26:44 pm: Quote from: ChrisP on April 04, 2015, 04:53:43 pm
And this will just make it all the more satisfying when it happens to somebody else. Just know that you won't have ol' ChrisP crying in the corner with you. I'll be nodding at you quietly, with this face: ;D

It also happened to me last night. I had 265K (with 1 death) on Level 7-6. The timer was dangerously low, so I made a suicide run to clear the top right rivet. While attempting to jump over a fireball, I accidentally grabbed the top hammer.

Marginal disappointment. A decent score, but not terribly deep into the game.

I voted for Option #2.

In my opinion, automatic DQ is unnecessarily harsh. "Game Over" is not.
Title: Re: No hammer rules change!
Post by: ChrisP on April 04, 2015, 06:54:39 pm: A thought experiment for everybody who is voting for the first and second options:

If Mruczek's original protocol for this track had been to DQ (or take the final score) only at the point of an object being smashed by a hammer, would you have argued against that protocol, and specifically made the case for DQing at the point of grabbing the hammer? And if so, what would the basis of your argument be?

Again, I'm okay with all of this (and I'm just kinda doing some <stirpot> here because sometimes I enjoy thought experiments of this kind), but I do have to wonder, if it had been established as a no-smash challenge (ie, explicitly allowing for accidental hammer grabs) from the outset, would anyone have ever questioned it?

Also worth pointing out: the official TG wording is "Player is NOT allowed to use or even touch the hammer". It's actually pretty common, sometimes even critical, to "touch" (that is, put Jumpman's pixels into contact with the hammer-pixels) without activating the hammer. Many of us would have DQ'ed games if we were to have stuck with the letter of the law there.

What I'm worried about, when it comes to this track, isn't so much mistakes of the kind that I made last night (that was just silliness). But it IS conceivable that factors beyond the player's reasonable control or ability to prevent could conspire against him, deep in a very promising game, resulting in an accidental jump input while Jumpman is underneath a hammer. They'd be getting a very raw deal in that case, and for no good reason.

Making a "suicide, with no smash" rule allows for the game to be salvaged in such a circumstance, and again, with no material advantage or benefit to the player (they are, after all, losing a life and have to restart the board from a clean state).
Title: Re: No hammer rules change!
Post by: stella_blue on April 04, 2015, 07:17:17 pm: Quote from: stella_blue on April 04, 2015, 06:26:44 pm
It also happened to me last night. I had 265K (with 1 death) on Level 7-6. The timer was dangerously low, so I made a suicide run to clear the top right rivet. While attempting to jump over a fireball, I accidentally grabbed the top hammer.

Correction: 265,200 on Level 8-6

The other details are accurate.
Title: Re: No hammer rules change!
Post by: Fast Eddie on April 04, 2015, 07:29:00 pm: I thought about that when i first read this, certainly nobody would have questioned it if the original rule was game over at hammer grab, or game over at smash, it would still have been a fun track...

However those were not the rules, it is what it is, and the track is not broken. I could live with points up to a hammer grab counting, but killing your man and continuing the game, id hate to see that...

No good reasons, no comparisons, no cats jumping on the jump button... No Fuckin Hammers! <Roy>

:D
Title: Re: No hammer rules change!
Post by: Milehighdt on April 04, 2015, 07:58:48 pm: You shall not make my shirts worthless. ;D

long live "No Hammer, No Problem"
Title: Re: No hammer rules change!
Post by: ChrisP on April 04, 2015, 09:42:37 pm: <Mruczek> ... with my dying breath!
Title: Re: No hammer rules change!
Post by: stella_blue on April 04, 2015, 09:50:19 pm: Quote from: stella_blue on April 04, 2015, 06:26:44 pm
It also happened to me last night. I had 265K (with 1 death) on Level 7-6. The timer was dangerously low, so I made a suicide run to clear the top right rivet. While attempting to jump over a fireball, I accidentally grabbed the top hammer.

Marginal disappointment. A decent score, but not terribly deep into the game.

I thought I had deleted the broadcast but it's still there, so I created a "lowlight" of the game.

This is how a civilized, even-tempered individual reacts to moments of self-inflicted misfortune:

Level 8-6 Rivets & Aftermath (https://www.twitch.tv/stella_blue/v/40768795?t=31m04s)

A sharp but understandable "Oh!!!" when it happens, followed by 45 seconds of silence while I kill off my 2 remaining men, and finally 7 minutes of subdued commentary and chat interaction. Also, a great song playing in the background.

Relax, Chris. Just having a little fun over here. :)
Title: Re: No hammer rules change!
Post by: Zmick_tricK on April 04, 2015, 11:06:12 pm: You have one poll option saying the game is instantly DQ'd and 3 options saying it doesn't. Let's say that 10 people vote for option one and 9 people each vote for the other 3 options, then option 1 still wins even though 27 vs 10 people believe that a hammer grab should not be the immediate and irreparable disposal of the acquired score.

I think a run-off poll structure would make more sense.
Title: Re: No hammer rules change!
Post by: f_symbols on April 05, 2015, 12:57:48 am: Quote from: stella_blue on April 04, 2015, 07:17:17 pm
Quote from: stella_blue on April 04, 2015, 06:26:44 pm
It also happened to me last night. I had 265K (with 1 death) on Level 7-6. The timer was dangerously low, so I made a suicide run to clear the top right rivet. While attempting to jump over a fireball, I accidentally grabbed the top hammer.

Correction: 265,200 on Level 8-6

The other details are accurate.

gotem
Title: Re: No hammer rules change!
Post by: ChrisP on April 05, 2015, 03:32:23 am: In this tourney alone, we're already had three accidental grabs (and that's just the ones I'm aware of). So I'd say this is definitely worth hashing out.

And if "Game Over" wins over "DQ" as the community consensus (let's just ignore the other options at this point), I really do think we should consider changing the rule for the DKF HSL.

Ross voiced a concern that rule changes would be unfair to those who played under different rules, but, as far as I'm aware, with this particular change there's nobody who would be retroactively affected (ie, a DQed score that would have otherwise just been "Game Over"ed and submitted). So it's not too late for us to amend the rule without any harm done, and maybe we should, especially if future tourneys are going to go with a "Game Over" rather than "DQ" rule. Jeff's tourneys were (wisely I think) on "Game Over" rules, and I think it would be best if his rules didn't clash with those of the HSL.
Title: Re: No hammer rules change!
Post by: timhett on April 05, 2015, 06:21:01 am: Quote from: VON on April 04, 2015, 04:49:47 pm
I voted to keep the rule as is because I feel to retroactively change the rule in any way would be unfair to the players who slaved away under the current ruleset. Also, I feel that No Hammer is supposed to be harsh, and avoiding the hammer at all costs is part of the challenge in the variant - lessening the penalty for grabbing a hammer would reduce the difficulty.

FWIW from someone who doesn't play much DK, but I thought the no hammer was supposed to be difficult also, and the hammer goes from useful tool and lifesaver to one of the most dangerous obstacles to avoid, not only will it kill you, but it will kill your game, even if you had a good one going.
Title: Re: No hammer rules change!
Post by: ChrisP on April 05, 2015, 01:49:27 pm: Sure, it's supposed to be difficult. It's already difficult!

The problem with an accidental hammer-grab ending, or worse, nullifying, your whole game is that there's no logical justification for it, other than strictness for strictness's sake. You can make the argument that a hammer-grab invalidates continuing, but you can't argue that it somehow invalidates the score you accumulated thus far. There's no precedent for that in any other DK track that we play. Tougher doesn't automatically mean better, and in this case, I think it hurts the track.

My interpretation of this challenge is that you're supposed to get as far as you can without using the hammer in the process of clearing any boards. If you accidentally grab a hammer, okay, kill your guy and redo the board. You're still holding to the underlying "no hammers allowed" principle, and you still have to complete 116 boards the same as the guy who never grabs one. And it's semi-rare anyway. You're not gonna do it every game, or even every 20 games.

I'm just thinking about this relative to protocols in other games and sports. Grabbing a hammer in a no-hammer run is akin to a foul. In most games, fouling just gets you a penalty. To be DQ'ed, you actually have to show ill intent, like intentionally cheating, or something happens to render the game unplayable or to have been compromised from the outset.

Soccer, for example, is a "no hands allowed" game, but if somebody DOES use their hands, you don't declare the entire game null and void, or end it then and there. You give the offending team a penalty (the other team gets a direct free kick) and you keep going!

It's definitely too late to set it up so that the penalty for a hammer grab is a lost life and a forced "do over' of the board, as opposed to an instant game over, but I don't think it's too late to at least make the score acceptable up to the point of the grab.
Title: Re: No hammer rules change!
Post by: Fast Eddie on April 05, 2015, 02:47:46 pm: Grabbing a hammer is NOT kicking a pie. It is NOT getting 1/16d.

Grabbing a hammer is Far worse than that, and must be punished accordingly <mad>

8)
Title: Re: No hammer rules change!
Post by: stella_blue on April 05, 2015, 02:52:07 pm: Quote from: ChrisP on April 05, 2015, 01:49:27 pm
It's definitely too late to set it up so that the penalty for a hammer grab is a lost life and a forced "do over' of the board, as opposed to an instant game over, but I don't think it's too late to at least make the score acceptable up to the point of the grab.

I agree; that's why I chose the 2nd option.

Let's use Jeff Wolfe as an extreme, hypothetical example:

Imagine if Jeff, giddy with excitement after clearing the final rivet on 21-6, had absentmindedly grabbed the bottom hammer on 22-1? He does it by sheer force of habit, operating on cruise control at that point.

Sure, one could argue that he did not technically killscreen the game, because he grabbed the hammer before the timer glitch kicked in. But would anyone in their right mind deny him the NH world record? I don't think so.
Title: Re: No hammer rules change!
Post by: Fast Eddie on April 05, 2015, 04:24:53 pm: Thats even worse, he wouldnt be punished at all for a hammer grab on the killscreen :( >:( <mad>

8)
Title: Re: No hammer rules change!
Post by: jwade614 on April 05, 2015, 04:27:15 pm: I voted "Game Over", but after further thought I would change my vote to "DQ", only because that has been the rule from the start.

I believe the presence of the "DQ" rule vs. the alternate "Game Over" (or any other) rule could actually affect the way a player plays deep into a game in certain situations. Thus, if the rule were to change, the integrity of the track would be compromised (even if just slightly and in ways that are not obvious/documentable/quantifiable).

The hypothetical example of Jeff Wolfe (or anyone) grabbing the hammer on 22-1 would simply be unfortunate. (Too bad, so sad.)
Title: Re: No hammer rules change!
Post by: d3scride on April 05, 2015, 05:02:46 pm: I've personally botched a 500k+ game with 2 lives remaining because of the current ruleset, but I still think it should remain unchanged.
Title: Re: No hammer rules change!
Post by: Adam_Mon on April 05, 2015, 05:16:09 pm: Chris, Is it possible to change votes on the poll?

I feel I voted to hastily last night and reconsidered my standpoint.

While I think its a shame for a great No Hammer performance to go to waste and be entirely DQ'd due to a hammer grab,

I have to admit I like Tim's view about the hammer being an object to be avoided at all costs.
plus it opens up all new realms of <popcorn> ..

So just a reminder view the poll with -1 on the second option since I cant physically remove my own vote.

<stirpot> <stirpot> <stirpot> <stirpot> <stirpot> <stirpot> <stirpot> <stirpot> <stirpot> <stirpot> <stirpot>
Title: Re: No hammer rules change!
Post by: stella_blue on April 05, 2015, 05:46:49 pm: Quote from: Fast Eddie on April 05, 2015, 04:24:53 pm
Thats even worse, he wouldnt be punished at all for a hammer grab on the killscreen :( >:( <mad>

It would be a minimal punishment of 100-300 points for the barrel(s) he may have otherwise jumped.
Title: Re: No hammer rules change!
Post by: marinomitch13 on April 05, 2015, 06:10:38 pm: Theoretically speaking, allowing *grabbing* of the hammer, in any way, allows a jump to made in such a way that Jumpman's apex happens in a part of the board where it previously was not allowed, thereby allowing there also to be -again, theoretically- points to be leached from a barrel/fireball passing underneath (or nearby) in a manner that was not possible previously. Though this element is theoretically minuscule (especially when not exploited), it may be used as a means to cash in a man with an extra 100/300/500 points that was not possible otherwise (jumping over/towards an object/s just as time expires in a way that effects what would not have been possible otherwise -namely, a slight accrual of points).

Just saying. <Mruczek> <Kuh> <Billy> <Tim> <Roy> <Pigger> <stirpot>
Title: Re: No hammer rules change!
Post by: ChrisP on April 05, 2015, 07:13:15 pm: I'm actually rather enjoying Jon's balls-to-the-wall viewpoint on this. ;D

I think too much sometimes, I admit it...

I was the one who got that killscreen/screenkill discussion rolling. I half-promised myself I'd never do that again. Kappa

As for vote-changing, I don't think I can do anything to make that possible, at least not on my end.
Title: Re: No hammer rules change!
Post by: Fast Eddie on April 05, 2015, 07:48:46 pm: My view has hardened the more i think about it :) No-Hammer is simple and beautiful...

8)
Title: Re: No hammer rules change!
Post by: jumpman on April 06, 2015, 08:19:38 am: Grabbing the hammer = instant death. <Mruczek>
Title: Re: No hammer rules change!
Post by: TheSunshineFund on April 06, 2015, 09:42:30 am: DQ - <Pigger>

((or at least your jumpman gets put on MP))